Brian Syzmanski must be an evil genius

[DavidJohn]

I've been thinking about that super wide black board that Laird is on in those new pics and wonder if it looks like a board from the top but underneath it's a multi hul with a narrow center hul and two skinny out riggers... I love all this new thinking outside the box stuff... But obviously when it comes to racing you need some rules.

DJ

[PT Woody]

Robon - It has nothing to do with purity, and your statement that if you can stand on it and it was designed so then it's a SUP is complete bunk.  I can make a canoe to stand in, is it a SUP?  I can make a racing scull to stand in it, is it a SUP?  Not buying it.

All I'm saying is that this trend (deep footwells and speed) will only end in one logical place.....standing in a racing scull hull shell.

You might can call it Stand Up Paddling, but it's not a Stand Up Board.

It's the "board" that set us apart, not the "boat."

I'd put money that your feet are below the waterline.  On my 5" thick 14'er with a slightly shaved down standing area my feet are probably 2" above the waterline, the deep footwells of the Starboards got to be below the waterline.

So you're okay with a 2" drop but 4" should be banned in your view? What about 3"? Or is it just this arbitrary water line estimation? Race organisers would have to bring measuring tape down to the water and check whose feet are below the water line. Remember that your opinion of the aesthetics is one thing, but others may argue that any non-surfboard shape is an affront or that there is no purity in any form of SUP, and we should all race without paddles.

[corlot]

I think you guys are reading into what Pauhana TX had posted. Like any sport that has competition, you need rules. Look at car racing. Competition needs to have some clear general rules. They could make hockey goalie equipment that was so large it covers the entire net. Effective but not fair.

What people ride outside of competition is up to them.

[corlot]

I do think the dugout design is good for many things but not everything. Most of the people doing the Molokai run are on a planing style board. Including certain people who are sponsored by a certain company that makes the board we are talking about...

[PauHanaTX]

Corlot - Thanks for getting my point.  I'm strictly talking racing and what will eventually happen in the heavily regulated race circuts (OC1, waveski, sculling, canoe, sailing) that we will become just like every other racing craft that is eventually governed by a body and strict set of rules that detail what their water craft can and can't be.  You don't tend to see much deviation.   

So yeah, as far as SUP racing goes, in the near future someone is going to tell you what a SUP is and you might not like the definition, as I might not like it.  Race organizers call the shots and are already telling you what you can and can't ride.  Shoots, next week race rules could say "no submerged footwells below the waterline."  And you'll either say forget it, or who cares, just like you do when the race rules say no catamerans, single hull only.  You don't have a catameran so you say "so what," but there's a guy out there with a catameran SUP who's saying "this rule sucks!"

Take it however you want.  Just my prediction and my opinion.

[Salish Salt]

Google "Zipp 2001" to see a better performing TT bike frame.  Since The UCI and associated bodies tightly regulates raceable designs "better" bikes are not marketable.  Innovation is restricted.  Loose raceable design guidelines eventually ok but, to whomever ends up being in charge of all the prize money, please don't overly define "SUP" soon.  Cuz when you do, the geniuses will move on.

Lookin forward to paddle a Symanski creation (& a tri-hull).

[robon]

Robon - It has nothing to do with purity, and your statement that if you can stand on it and it was designed so then it's a SUP is complete bunk.  I can make a canoe to stand in, is it a SUP?  I can make a racing scull to stand in it, is it a SUP?  Not buying it.

All I'm saying is that this trend (deep footwells and speed) will only end in one logical place.....standing in a racing scull hull shell.

You might can call it Stand Up Paddling, but it's not a Stand Up Board.

It's the "board" that set us apart, not the "boat."

I'd put money that your feet are below the waterline.  On my 5" thick 14'er with a slightly shaved down standing area my feet are probably 2" above the waterline, the deep footwells of the Starboards got to be below the waterline.

Complete bunk? What's your definition of a SUP then? Is a displacement design an SUP in your eyes because this design sure looks a lot different than a straight up planing hull and is much more "boat" like in appearance than a planing hull. Especially sunken deck SUPs with high volume.

 The new SB Race models have sunken decks and high volume bows and I don't consider them to be either true displacement or complete planing designs. Do these still qualify as SUPs? So, a board like the new SB with footwells around the waterline don't qualify as SUPs? Is it a stand up scull? You can call it a stand up scull, I think it looks like an SUP.

I didn't realize the parameters of what defines SUP were so rigid.

[paddledaddy]

Quite honestly using foot-wells in a board design does not guarantee it is faster than another. There are a lot of tradeoffs a board must make to take advantage of foot-wells and I don't think it is an unfair advantage compared to other boards. For example the board has to be very thick and there are some conditions that do not favor thick boards. For another, getting too much water in the foot-wells means you are carrying around say 20 pounds of sloshing water. Finally, let me say that I started this thread to point out that these unique looking boards actually feel more "surfy" (more board like) than many other race boards. If you are so inclined, give one a try. F... restrictions enjoy freedom!

[PauHanaTX]

Just went to Webster's Dictionary for kicks.

Board: a piece of sawed lumber of little thickness and length greatly exceeding width.

Boat:  A small vessel propelled by oars, paddles, or by sail or power.

Vessel:  A hollow structure designed for navigation in or on the water.


You can paddle what you want I could care less.  The point I'm trying to make is that at some design point you're stand up paddling a canoe ( in the middle of a canoe with foam/glass covering the front and back sections) and that's what a few designs are approaching.

[paddledaddy]

So which is it? I can paddle what I want or you are calling for a ban on my evil board? Maybe I was right Brian Syzmanski is an evil genius with an evil plot to destroy SUP.

[refthimos]

I'm strictly talking racing and what will eventually happen in the heavily regulated race circuts (OC1, waveski, sculling, canoe, sailing) that we will become just like every other racing craft that is eventually governed by a body and strict set of rules that detail what their water craft can and can't be.  You don't tend to see much deviation.   

So yeah, as far as SUP racing goes, in the near future someone is going to tell you what a SUP is and you might not like the definition, as I might not like it.  Race organizers call the shots and are already telling you what you can and can't ride.  Shoots, next week race rules could say "no submerged footwells below the waterline."  And you'll either say forget it, or who cares, just like you do when the race rules say no catamerans, single hull only.  You don't have a catameran so you say "so what," but there's a guy out there with a catameran SUP who's saying "this rule sucks!"

I imagine we all agree with you there - racing does have to have rules... the sport is just in a process of finding itself and determining what will and will not fly...  My only point is that the Ace looks like a SUP to me... to you, not so much.  At some point, there will be a rule in place that will settle the question.

[refthimos]

Google "Zipp 2001" to see a better performing TT bike frame.  Since The UCI and associated bodies tightly regulates raceable designs "better" bikes are not marketable.  Innovation is restricted.  Loose raceable design guidelines eventually ok but, to whomever ends up being in charge of all the prize money, please don't overly define "SUP" soon.  Cuz when you do, the geniuses will move on.

I still have a Zipp 2001 TT bike built up, collecting dust in a room since I no longer have the time to train seriously (nor the inclination to focus so much on only one sport/activity to the detriment of others), but it is, in my mind, unquestionably, a "better" time trial bike design (and would have only improved with more innovation by Zipp had the UCI not banned its design).

So I have to agree, while everyone will have a different definition of what makes a "SUP," my hope is that rules don't become too strict too quickly and stifle innovation.

And before you tell me that there will be a market for race-style boards even if they are not approved by some SUP governing body, as people will want to go fast and won't necessarily care if the board is race-legal, I don't buy that for a second.  If that was true, Zipp would still be making the 2001 (well actually, the last model made was the 3001) and Lotus would still be making its Boardman frame.

[greatdane]

I'd put money that your feet are below the waterline.  On my 5" thick 14'er with a slightly shaved down standing area my feet are probably 2" above the waterline, the deep footwells of the Starboards got to be below the waterline.

Not to beat a very dead horse, but I'll take that bet.  I put my paddle blade next to my foot inside the foot well, noted where it lined up with the graphics on the blade, then put the blade outside the board... exactly even with water line.  I too was surprised, don't get me wrong.  The freeboard of this board is very high and gives the appearance that you are way down under water line. 
I just want to point out that I am not super jazzed on the appearance of these "boards," but at this point in our very short SUP history, they work and nothing says they can't be in races... yet.

At a local race two weeks ago, a guy showed up with a 16' prototype stand up catamaran, made by Easy Rider Kayaks (sorry Warren)... the thing weighed 70 pounds & was one of the ugliest things I've ever seen.  http://northwestpaddlingfestival.com/2011/06/23/introducing-easy-riders-water-walker-sup/
That said, in the 5.5 mile race he beat me by over 5 minutes and averaged over 6 mph on flat water.  He was first, me second. 

[PauHanaTX]

Not sure about all the Starboard models, but the one I raced against a few weeks back was at least 8" deep and the riders feet had to have been 4" below the waterline.

[PT Woody]

Not sure about all the Starboard models, but the one I raced against a few weeks back was at least 8" deep and the riders feet had to have been 4" below the waterline.

I have some property I'd like to sell you.