Super supplement?

[aircube]

Yo Bill, to get back on topic. Yeah for sure we experience muscle loss as we age and the best plan is to go in to your retirement years WITH the muscle so you have more to start with, but there are a few things that are purported to work.  having been in two bodybuilding contests when i was younger I read tons about supplements b/c i did't want to go the steroid route like some of the other guys at the time.
NO is important for various functions in the body, the most talked about is its ability to control blood vessel flow, which has the blue pill people sweating i'm sure.  But if you are trying to gain/maintain lean muscle you have to maintain a positive nitrogen balance.  The very basis of anabolism and why steriods work is that they cause nitrogen retention, this gives the body the N required to build amino acids into muscle. As we age the amount of time we spend in a positive nitrogen retention state drops off leading to muscle loss and loss of tone and strength of the muscle you do have.  So how do we retain N, well some gents take the Testosterone path.  T supplementation is   ok for some, except there are side effects and as we age the ratio of free testosterone/DHT(dihydrotestosterone) goes down, so theres less T floating around helping our muscles and more DHT causing your hair to fall out on your head but grow in your ears and other lovely places.  Some take the natural supplement path and some try to boost T by stressing the body.
(Continued in my next message)

[juandoe]

this thread was started discussing a supplement that supposedly might benefit those of us active in the sport. It was slandered by the writer as coming from a "sleazy mlm company" the inference being it was ineffective. quite honestly I'd never heard of it. and therefore withheld any comment maybe there a lesson there for some...

To recap; I simply offered to give some of my favorite product away at my expense, not selling anything, just offering to anyone truly interested in a safe performance enhancing supplement.

Falco, for the record, I don't need to "try to do" anything thanks.  I sincerely thought there might be a few guys out there that would appreciate my generosity and benefit from what is a really great product for those of us in highly aerobic sports. In most circles that would be considered a grand gesture, but when I read the tone of Juan's snide comments I thought a reasoned rebuttal was in order. My mistake, pearls before swine I suppose

BTW ours is a publicly traded company, everything I've said can be documented, including my income, have a great day tomorrow,

I take great offense at this comment.  My product is much better documented in terms of efficacy.  Let's see whose product is better. Do you have any peer-reviewed data?  I know I do.

[juandoe]

As we age the amount of time we spend in a positive nitrogen retention state drops off leading to muscle loss and loss of tone and strength of the muscle you do have. 
(Continued in my next message)

This is not a function of nitrogen balance.  The rate of Kwashiorkor in the United States is vanishingly small.  We can eat all the protein we want and we will still get flabby.  Just fatter too. 

[pdxmike]

this thread was started discussing a supplement that supposedly might benefit those of us active in the sport. It was slandered by the writer as coming from a "sleazy mlm company" the inference being it was ineffective. quite honestly I'd never heard of it. and therefore withheld any comment maybe there a lesson there for some...

To recap; I simply offered to give some of my favorite product away at my expense, not selling anything, just offering to anyone truly interested in a safe performance enhancing supplement.

Falco, for the record, I don't need to "try to do" anything thanks.  I sincerely thought there might be a few guys out there that would appreciate my generosity and benefit from what is a really great product for those of us in highly aerobic sports. In most circles that would be considered a grand gesture, but when I read the tone of Juan's snide comments I thought a reasoned rebuttal was in order. My mistake, pearls before swine I suppose

BTW ours is a publicly traded company, everything I've said can be documented, including my income, have a great day tomorrow,

I take great offense at this comment.  My product is much better documented in terms of efficacy.  Let's see whose product is better. Do you have any peer-reviewed data?  I know I do.

juandoe--how can we judge how good your product is if you don't even tell us how much money you've made in commissions? 

[Falco]

this thread was started discussing a supplement that supposedly might benefit those of us active in the sport. It was slandered by the writer as coming from a "sleazy mlm company" the inference being it was ineffective. quite honestly I'd never heard of it. and therefore withheld any comment maybe there a lesson there for some...

To recap; I simply offered to give some of my favorite product away at my expense, not selling anything, just offering to anyone truly interested in a safe performance enhancing supplement.

Falco, for the record, I don't need to "try to do" anything thanks.  I sincerely thought there might be a few guys out there that would appreciate my generosity and benefit from what is a really great product for those of us in highly aerobic sports. In most circles that would be considered a grand gesture, but when I read the tone of Juan's snide comments I thought a reasoned rebuttal was in order. My mistake, pearls before swine I suppose

BTW ours is a publicly traded company, everything I've said can be documented, including my income, have a great day tomorrow,

I take great offense at this comment.  My product is much better documented in terms of efficacy.  Let's see whose product is better. Do you have any peer-reviewed data?  I know I do.

juandoe--how can we judge how good your product is if you don't even tell us how much money you've made in commissions? 

Good point.

And I just found my tape measure as well so if B Kahuna wants, we can measure each other's johnsons afterwards as well.

[aircube]

These are what i believe to be the most usefull supplements(steroids and Supplements) in order of effectivness:

1)T supplementation. Its nothing to scoff at, esp if you want to remain active.  Testosterone converts to DHT and estrogen if you take to much. there are side effects and risks.

2)Winstrol.  An androgen.  You can take a VERY small amount(like 1 tab a day, or even every second day) and remain slightly N positve.  Guys in gyms somtimes take 50 tabs a day to get lean and cut while retaining mass, which is biochemically impossible unless you are in positive N territory.  Hard on your lver over time, increased rate of stroke, heart attack.  But same deal with estrogen replacement for older women.  Because of the almost nonexsistent converion of winstrol to estrogen, in some people its a better choice than T.  Too much T can turn to DHT + estrogen.  You can block the conversion of T to DHT using finasteride(propecia) but then it tends to go in the estrogen direction....

3)Tribulus Terrestris. (TT) Puncture Vine.  Its a supplement that has been found to increase natural T levels.  I have taken tons of supps over the years to NO avail....  TT was the first supp that had any effect on me whatsoever.  I knew it was working within 2-3 days of taking it.  After a few weeks I was gaining lean muscle, looking and feeling mre pumped throughout the day(N retention will do that...) increased appetite, bit of acne and aggression and definitley felt stronger during workouts.  Heres the bummer, its full of compounds that have unknown effects on the body (like everything else we take in really)  But research it for your self.  You have to take it for several weeks and then back off for a while as it stops working.  Some guys go 3-4 days taking it and then 1-2 days off in b/w.  Hormone levels can change, drop and you can feel a bit wigged out like your PMSing  when you stop taking it....same as T and Winstrol.  TT is now used in several natural viagra supplments along with horny goatweed and Maca b/c  word got around that guys taking it to build muscle were getting more....umm responsiveness below the belt. Its also known to increase sperm production  and testicle weight much like Clomid.

4) Stressing your body.   If you are up for it, do heavy power movements like bench press, leg press, rows, deadlifts.  Do only about 5-6 reps, by the 6th one you should able to only manage half way....  This boosts natural production of T.  Twice a week.

5)Interval training, 30 second sprint as hard as u can/walk/sprint/jog/walk/spirint, etc.  You can look into exact rountines.  This has been proven to boost Growth hormone.

6) Get ready for this one.....pure Cocoa, yep dark chocolate!  Its packed with natural arginine and full of antioxidants.  You can eat 70-90% dark choc if you want, but I just eat a heaping tablespoon of 100% cocoa.  You can buy arginine, but i would't bother...you can buy NO supplements now, but i did't find any use for them , plus they CAN be toxic if you take too much.  A heaping tablespoon of cocoa and an asprin will get your NO flowing into your muscles...and other places.

I hope you can use some of this info.  I just had this conversation with my father this afternoon...he has the same concerns.   Please let me know if you have any sucess with any of the methods/supps.  Always happy to chat about it.

[aircube]

[/quote]

This is not a function of nitrogen balance.  The rate of Kwashiorkor in the United States is vanishingly small.  We can eat all the protein we want and we will still get flabby.  Just fatter too. 
[/quote]

Umm, i don't know where you went to school, but steriods do affect N retention.  N retention is DIRECTLEY linked to anabolism and retention of lean muscle mass.

And hey look.....I'm not trying to sel Billl anything....

[Falco]

These are what i believe to be the most usefull supplements(steroids and Supplements) in order of effectivness:

1)T supplementation. Its nothing to scoff at, esp if you want to remain active.  Testosterone converts to DHT and estrogen if you take to much. there are side effects and risks.

2)Winstrol.  An androgen.  You can take a VERY small amount(like 1 tab a day, or even every second day) and remain slightly N positve.  Guys in gyms somtimes take 50 tabs a day to get lean and cut while retaining mass, which is biochemically impossible unless you are in positive N territory.  Hard on your lver over time, increased rate of stroke, heart attack.  But same deal with estrogen replacement for older women.  Because of the almost nonexsistent converion of winstrol to estrogen, in some people its a better choice than T.  Too much T can turn to DHT + estrogen.  You can block the conversion of T to DHT using finasteride(propecia) but then it tends to go in the estrogen direction....

3)Tribulus Terrestris. (TT) Puncture Vine.  Its a supplement that has been found to increase natural T levels.  I have taken tons of supps over the years to NO avail....  TT was the first supp that had any effect on me whatsoever.  I knew it was working within 2-3 days of taking it.  After a few weeks I was gaining lean muscle, looking and feeling mre pumped throughout the day(N retention will do that...) increased appetite, bit of acne and aggression and definitley felt stronger during workouts.  Heres the bummer, its full of compounds that have unknown effects on the body (like everything else we take in really)  But research it for your self.  You have to take it for several weeks and then back off for a while as it stops working.  Some guys go 3-4 days taking it and then 1-2 days off in b/w.  Hormone levels can change, drop and you can feel a bit wigged out like your PMSing  when you stop taking it....same as T and Winstrol.  TT is now used in several natural viagra supplments along with horny goatweed and Maca b/c  word got around that guys taking it to build muscle were getting more....umm responsiveness below the belt. Its also known to increase sperm production  and testicle weight much like Clomid.

4) Stressing your body.   If you are up for it, do heavy power movements like bench press, leg press, rows, deadlifts.  Do only about 5-6 reps, by the 6th one you should able to only manage half way....  This boosts natural production of T.  Twice a week.

5)Interval training, 30 second sprint as hard as u can/walk/sprint/jog/walk/spirint, etc.  You can look into exact rountines.  This has been proven to boost Growth hormone.

6) Get ready for this one.....pure Cocoa, yep dark chocolate!  Its packed with natural arginine and full of antioxidants.  You can eat 70-90% dark choc if you want, but I just eat a heaping tablespoon of 100% cocoa.  You can buy arginine, but i would't bother...you can buy NO supplements now, but i did't find any use for them , plus they CAN be toxic if you take too much.  A heaping tablespoon of cocoa and an asprin will get your NO flowing into your muscles...and other places.

I hope you can use some of this info.  I just had this conversation with my father this afternoon...he has the same concerns.   Please let me know if you have any sucess with any of the methods/supps.  Always happy to chat about it.

Just out of curiosity, no HGH on your list?

[juandoe]

This is not a function of nitrogen balance.  The rate of Kwashiorkor in the United States is vanishingly small.  We can eat all the protein we want and we will still get flabby.  Just fatter too. 
[/quote]

Umm, i don't know where you went to school, but steriods do affect N retention.  N retention is DIRECTLEY linked to anabolism and retention of lean muscle mass.

And hey look.....I'm not trying to sel Billl anything....
[/quote]

True, steroids do affect nitrogen balance.  Just pointing out that N balance is a symptom and not a cause of muscle loss.  Renal failure will also affect your nitrogen balance positively.  Not so good for your muscles though.

[aircube]

This is not a function of nitrogen balance.  The rate of Kwashiorkor in the United States is vanishingly small.  We can eat all the protein we want and we will still get flabby.  Just fatter too. 

Umm, i don't know where you went to school, but steriods do affect N retention.  N retention is DIRECTLEY linked to anabolism and retention of lean muscle mass.

And hey look.....I'm not trying to sel Billl anything....
[/quote]

True, steroids do affect nitrogen balance.  Just pointing out that N balance is a symptom and not a cause of muscle loss.  Renal failure will also affect your nitrogen balance positively.  Not so good for your muscles though.
[/quote]

we're not talking about toxicity from renal failure or protein malnutrition leading to kwashiorkor.   We're talking about trying to spend more time in an anabolic state than in a catabolic state.  Preferably by excercising eating right and perhaps some natural supplements.

[PonoBill]

this thread was started discussing a supplement that supposedly might benefit those of us active in the sport. It was slandered by the writer as coming from a "sleazy mlm company" the inference being it was ineffective. quite honestly I'd never heard of it. and therefore withheld any comment maybe there a lesson there for some...

To recap; I simply offered to give some of my favorite product away at my expense, not selling anything, just offering to anyone truly interested in a safe performance enhancing supplement.

Falco, for the record, I don't need to "try to do" anything thanks.  I sincerely thought there might be a few guys out there that would appreciate my generosity and benefit from what is a really great product for those of us in highly aerobic sports. In most circles that would be considered a grand gesture, but when I read the tone of Juan's snide comments I thought a reasoned rebuttal was in order. My mistake, pearls before swine I suppose

BTW ours is a publicly traded company, everything I've said can be documented, including my income, have a great day tomorrow,

That's all lovely Kahuna, but as a new member on the forum posting what every very well informed person here knows is a blatently commercial message you should understand your motives are suspect. And to most of the folks that know me, your inference and conclusions just sound silly. I am retired, but I founded and still own half of a company worth a lot of zeros. I live a simple lifestyle, but that's by choice, not circumstance. Everyone is making fun of you because you're so off base, but you don't understand that (because you wandered in making assumptions) and that pisses you off.

Perhaps you should just understand that if you're going to play in forums with grown ups that you have to walk before you run. You should also probably look inside to see why you're so prickly when people call MLMs sleazy. We never care about things people say that we know isn't true.

And only a moron thinks that the fact a company is publically listed means it isn't a sleaze bucket.

Also, the rest of you folks are REALLY funny. What a shitstorm I've unleashed. And I wasn't even trying.

[aircube]

Food uptake after workouts.

After you workout with weights you should replenish your muscles with glycogen.  You can spike your insulin levels by drinking sweet juice or  pop just after working out and then eating ~100 grams of carbs, like a baked potato.  The insulin will drive the glycogen into the muscles for storage.  This should be within 1/2 hr after your weight training workout.

Aprox, 45min to an hr after is peak time to take up proteins for amino acid building blocks.  A lean chicken breast is perfect.

[juandoe]

But if you are trying to gain/maintain lean muscle you have to maintain a positive nitrogen balance. 

I was clarifying this statement.   Anabolic is a better term.  I see plenty of people taking protein supplementation with some cockamamie idea that it is going to magically go to their muscles.  Few healthy people are truly protein deficient.   Burn or trauma patients are a wholly different topic.

[pdxmike]

this thread was started discussing a supplement that supposedly might benefit those of us active in the sport. It was slandered by the writer as coming from a "sleazy mlm company" the inference being it was ineffective. quite honestly I'd never heard of it. and therefore withheld any comment maybe there a lesson there for some...

To recap; I simply offered to give some of my favorite product away at my expense, not selling anything, just offering to anyone truly interested in a safe performance enhancing supplement.

Falco, for the record, I don't need to "try to do" anything thanks.  I sincerely thought there might be a few guys out there that would appreciate my generosity and benefit from what is a really great product for those of us in highly aerobic sports. In most circles that would be considered a grand gesture, but when I read the tone of Juan's snide comments I thought a reasoned rebuttal was in order. My mistake, pearls before swine I suppose

BTW ours is a publicly traded company, everything I've said can be documented, including my income, have a great day tomorrow,

That's all lovely Kahuna, but as a new member on the forum posting what every very well informed person here knows is a blatently commercial message you should understand your motives are suspect. And to most of the folks that know me, your inference and conclusions just sound silly. I am retired, but I founded and still own half of a company worth a lot of zeros. I live a simple lifestyle, but that's by choice, not circumstance. Everyone is making fun of you because you're so off base, but you don't understand that (because you wandered in making assumptions) and that pisses you off.

Perhaps you should just understand that if you're going to play in forums with grown ups that you have to walk before you run. You should also probably look inside to see why you're so prickly when people call MLMs sleazy. We never care about things people say that we know isn't true.

And only a moron thinks that the fact a company is publically listed means it isn't a sleaze bucket.

Also, the rest of you folks are REALLY funny. What a shitstorm I've unleashed. And I wasn't even trying.

You modestly didn't note that the number at the far left of all the zeros wasn't another zero.  I have quite a few things worth a lot of zeros myself. 

It is pretty amazing--you can't tell from the first post or two which threads will take off, or where they'll go.  Juandoe's, aircube's and falco's posts have been getting pretty interesting.

All we need now is a photo or two from Admin. 

[PonoBill]

Trust me, it's coming.

Lots of knowledge on this forum, including Randy's knowledge of where to find photos that close down your trachea.