Laugh at Trump all you want

[SuppaTime]

In a perfect market situation there will be a distribution of wages and there will always be a low-wage tail side of the distribution. It is just how normal distributions work. Well, except for in Lake Wobegone.

Part of the complaint here is that it looks unfair for some people to get stuck in the low end of the distribution. I agree it is unfair. There shouldn't be dumb people either. But there are.

But part of the complaint also is that the distribution is skewed, that there are in fact too many people on the low end and not enough in the middle of the distribution. That is also very true and one big reason for that is that jobs are more mobile than people are, so jobs leave the US for other countries but our workers don't go with them. They are left behind to compete for a slew of lower paying, lower quality jobs.

By paying workers a higher wage than the market would, we are in effect paying a guilt tax to the affected workers. We benefit by globalization which has allowed products to be produced cheaper in countries with cheaper labor pools and we pay less for those things. It benefits the consumer. But because workers are not mobile, our workers suffer from quality jobs being exported. So we pay them off with a higher minimum wage.

I am not against doing that but we should realize what is going on. This is not so much about McDonalds ripping off their employees, it is about US consumers enjoying the fruits of globalization. And not just consumers - Apple is the biggest US company at this point. Most of its products are made in China. Apple also has fueled my 401k for the last few years. It likely would not have had the success it has had if it were forced to only use American factories.

Personally, I would prefer that we figure out how to get more high-quality, high paying jobs back in the USA than paying people off to be happy in crappy low end jobs.

[Subber]

At $15 per hour, is McDonalds (and others) out of business?

[Weasels wake]

Damn near, but the sit down only restaurants will have to up their prices also, so it would be an expensive wash.

[pdxmike]

Good question Mike.  Recent attempts to provide exemptions for seasonal employees and employees of non-profit organizations have been largely shot down.  This of course leaves few options for those willing to work for less, including adding to the underground economy.  Oh the unintended consequences of stupidity...

The non-profit example is interesting in itself.  It's legal to work for free (i.e. volunteer) at a non-profit, but not legal to accept compensation short of a "living wage"?
Regulator to non-profit:  "You're paying Ms. A $10/hr.  You can't do that."
Non-profit:  "OK, you caught us.  We can raise her up to $12/hr."
Regulator:  "Sorry, still illegal."
Non-profit:  "We can cut her down to zero and keep her on as a full-time volunteer."
Regulator:  "That'll be fine".

[magentawave]

If you think the Republican race is freaky, wait until Hilary gets indicted.

These creeps protect their own kind. Both Bush's are still free and since her rapist "husband" Bill hasn't been put in a cage then I doubt they will do anything to Hitlery. Hope springs eternal, though.

LOL what are you on?

Can you deny that the politicians that serve the status quo protect their own kind?

Human nature, not a human's nature.  In a society, there will always be some, that without law and regulation, will seek unfair personal advantage to the detriment of the whole.

It doesn't require violence to manage common sense regulation, but enforcement, certainly.  In terms of Wall Street and the banks these regulations were put in place with the New Deal and remained there until the Clinton era.

Those who "seek unfair personal advantage" are doing quite well now in a society with tons of laws and regulations.

But at the root of enforcement for all the regulations you want is the threat of violence by men in blue costumes and shiny badges. A more peaceful alternative would be to live by the Non-Aggression Principle and NO VICTIM = NO CRIME.

Thanks, Google.

Like someone else said, if you are in your 30's, 40's or 50's and flipping burgers then you need to make a serious assessment of your life. With the internet now anyone that really wants to make a better income and life for themselves can.

[lucabrasi]

Ever run a help wanted ad looking to fill basically unskilled positions? Oh my word. Amazing how the world is just too full of people who aren't capable of much more responsibility or motivation than something like a minimum wage job calls for. Even at 50.  Many different reasons, many of which is making their own bed so to say. You know exactly when to show up, exactly what you are going to do because if you weren't told exactly what to do many can't see that next step ahead without being told what it is. Some are content and happy, some will bitch and gripe because that is just what they do and yes, and some are stuck in that circle of sorts. Using Mickey D's as an example isn't good as it seems the bulk of the ones working there are going to move on to something else. There are too many things needing done that require a low labor cost and not enough better paying jobs to move on to. SuppaTime (and others) explained that out all too well. I don't think the new and incoming workforce can man all of the jobs even if it is a never ending supply in theory.....it needs more and always will but raising the minimum just to help the ones still in that circle isn't the answer.

Oh the unintended consequences of stupidity...

Oh yes but problem is quite often it just doesn't involve stupidity. Always too much gray to try and make such things black and white.
Quite interesting........hustling work, trying to be low bid on an entry level job and you can't get it even if you are a far better candidate than numb skull over there who they will pay more than your offer.

[Califoilia]

Interesting dichotomy of positions here at the ol' Standup Zone:

1.)  Free "higher education" as proposed by Bernie (and others I suppose) is "bad", but....
2.)  Folks who now can't afford to pay for this higher education to secure the better than "minimum wage" jobs made "stupid choices".

There has to be some middle ground if we truly want to solve the problem(s), and just not bury our heads in the sand thinking the same old status quo is supposedly going to magically change things.

Somehow we're able to provide a free education up until high school, but for some reason, that's the tipping point where we can no longer do so.

Why not take it just one step further as a start, and offer community college educations for free, and allow those interested in bettering themselves in the much needed "vocational" workforce (plumbers, electricians, HVAC, automotive repair, etc) to "earn" a degree/certificate in those fields....rather than think that all "higher education" means training doctors, lawyers, scientists, mathematicians, and so forth?

Or maybe in CA for instance....keep the minimum wage where it's at ($10/hr.), and "bank" the additional proposed $5/hour increase in an employee's "educational fund", that when they work at a place long enough, they'll eventually build up their own "scholarship fund" to use to prepare themselves for a much "better" job than the "minimum wage" one they're currently employed in?   If they choose to not to use it, then the employer is out nothing, and can use the employee's "educational fund" reserves for whatever they wish, when the employee parts ways with the company. 

This could even start a whole new loan industry, as companies can eventually "borrow" against their surplus "educational funds" once they become larger enough, and a lender believes that by the company's employee turnover, and/or its employees' past use or non-use of the funds is safe enough to use as collateral to free up these non-discretionary funds of the employer, but discretionary funds of the employee.

Just a thought.... YMMV.

[magentawave]

If you pay property taxes then there's no such thing as "free" education. And frankly, the use of the term "education" in regards to the boring soul-crushing, creativity smashing indoctrination that goes on in public schools is one helluva stretch. How about the public schools actually teach kids usable life skills like entrepreneurship instead of the current paradigm where most leave high school totally clueless about their future?

So you are suggesting that a $5.00 per hour job killing TAX should be imposed to create another useless government make-work program is a solution? Gawd help us. 

Interesting dichotomy of positions here at the ol' Standup Zone:

1.)  Free "higher education" as proposed by Bernie (and others I suppose) is "bad", but....
2.)  Folks who now can't afford to pay for this higher education to secure the better than "minimum wage" jobs made "stupid choices".

There has to be some middle ground if we truly want to solve the problem(s), and just not bury our heads in the sand thinking the same old status quo is supposedly going to magically change things.

Somehow we're able to provide a free education up until high school, but for some reason, that's the tipping point where we can no longer do so.

Why not take it just one step further as a start, and offer community college educations for free, and allow those interested in bettering themselves in the much needed "vocational" workforce (plumbers, electricians, HVAC, automotive repair, etc) to "earn" a degree/certificate in those fields....rather than think that all "higher education" means training doctors, lawyers, scientists, mathematicians, and so forth?

Or maybe in CA for instance....keep the minimum wage where it's at ($10/hr.), and "bank" the additional proposed $5/hour increase in an employee's "educational fund", that when they work at a place long enough, they'll eventually build up their own "scholarship fund" to use to prepare themselves for a much "better" job than the "minimum wage" one they're currently employed in?   If they choose to not to use it, then the employer is out nothing, and can use the employee's "educational fund" reserves for whatever they wish, when the employee parts ways with the company. 

This could even start a whole new loan industry, as companies can eventually "borrow" against their surplus "educational funds" once they become larger enough, and a lender believes that by the company's employee turnover, and/or its employees' past use or non-use of the funds is safe enough to use as collateral to free up these non-discretionary funds of the employer, but discretionary funds of the employee.

Just a thought.... YMMV.

[Subber]

So you are suggesting that a $5.00 per hour job killing TAX should be imposed to create another useless government make-work program is a solution? Gawd help us. 

Hmmm...it would be good for the accountants and software companies, especially payroll processing companies,
but all the extra government red tape - its time and expense - buries aspiring entrepreneurs and small businesses.

[Bean]

Hmmm...it would be good for the accountants...

Easy there Subber, bean-counters have feelings too...

[stoneaxe]

It's always interesting to me to see how a thread morph's. I used Trump in the heading simply to get eyeballs. Bad idea if I wanted to get people thinking about the question I posed since it quickly turned into a Trump is an idiot thread.

[mrbig]

True enough. But it spawned the absolutely hilarious Trump on Downwinding thread!

[pdxmike]

It's always interesting to me to see how a thread morph's. I used Trump in the heading simply to get eyeballs. Bad idea if I wanted to get people thinking about the question I posed since it quickly turned into a Trump is an idiot thread.

Well, it does say, "Laugh at Trump all you want" so people are just trying to do that for you.

Plus, isn't this the minimum wage thread?  Why are you interjecting Trump into it anyway? Maybe you should start your own thread if you want to talk about Trump.

[PonoBill]

I find the notion that education is the answer to raising wages very hard to swallow unless the investment includes some kind of complete overhaul of the system--which is supremely unlikely. You can't decouple potential from the equation, but in most democratic societies it inevitably is--we don't want to deny people the opportunity to grow their own wings. Half of the world has an IQ less than 100. Tough for those folks to become journeyman anything given our current educational system, and they are NOT going to be a competitive specialist of any kind.  Yeah, I know, IQ isn't a reliable measure of much, other than potential to learn.  But find an effective full stack developer with an IQ less than 130 and I'll shut up and sit down. Someone with less potential could sit in classes until they were 40 and never reach competence. Colleges trot out earning potential charts to illustrate value of education without mentioning that an introductory course in statistics would make the chart laughable.

[stoneaxe]

My wife is working with a young lady, went to a supposedly very good private high school, has a bachelors degree from Johnson and Wales......planning on going for her masters soon. She saw the video  combining a kiwi with a banana that is circulating on FB and is all excited to try it. If that much education can't fix stupid......... . Of course stupid can't be fixed but don't tell those selling higher education that.

and I think PDX just broke my brain!