Messages

3886

Downwind and Racing / Re: Wow skinny boys are winning all the races!

« on: October 28, 2012, 02:25:19 AM »

This race idea sounds perfect to me.   The ironic thing is that I think people would be less worried about entering a no-class race on a less-than-ideal board than they would a typical race...When I was running in high school, the local running store had a weekly run/race around Green Lake.  It got very popular.  Everyone knew you just had to show up at the starting line at 9 AM Sunday, or 6 PM Thursday in the summer, and there'd be other people there...Total officiating consisted of a guy yelling go, then reading times off his watch as you finished.  

Yep, you've hit the nail on the head, IMO. You don't even need someone who does the timing. All you need is a winning point (e.g. touching a particular post on the beach), and just record the finish positions - or just get the racers to line up in their finishing order and do it after everyone has come in. If people want to know their times then they should wear a watch. As soon as you start having serious timings etc then one person has to stay on the beach and organise everything. Ideally you'd want a set up where everyone who showed up could take part. That way even small groups of people could hold an event. As soon as you start having age, weight etc divisions then the administration of the race becomes a big task which will put people off from doing it. It also lengthens the event a lot because of the need for records and prize-giving and all that jazz and this is prohibitive for those of us who have families and busy working lives to schedule around our SUP (!).

If people want to take part in races with timing chips, lots of divisions, a rule sheet that runs to three pages, board measurement, loads of medals and prizes and goody bags, then they can pay for all that and enter the commercially-backed races. But a lot of people don't want that expense or hassle. They just want to turn up with their friends, have some fun, and go home, all at next to no cost: a slightly more formalised version of what they would do anyway.

And then show off the pictures of themselves on the Zone!

3887

Downwind and Racing / Re: Wow skinny boys are winning all the races!

« on: October 27, 2012, 01:18:25 PM »

I just don't like silly, arbitrary rules. I dislike this situation enough to try to do something about it other than just talking.

How about creating a series of local Zone race events? They don't have to be huge productions with massive overheads. In fact the idea would be for them to NOT be. Pick somewhere where people can just turn up and paddle. Sink a couple of homemade bouys to mark out a course. Off you go. If it is just a social event then everyone is responsible for themselves and if they drown then it's their own stupid fault. In the UK there is a race series instigated by John Hibbard of Starboard that runs like that. BBQs afterwards maybe where people bring their own food to cook, and no extravagant or costly prizes - people take part for the pleasure of paddling only. Post the events and the results on the Zone. At the end of the year maybe, those who have accumulated enough places or wins can meet up and race to determine the overall winner.

Then you can have the rules as you like. The most important of which is that you can use any board you like, and all boards compete in one class.

I know then that people will want age and maybe weight classes, and probably gender too. In my ideal world NONE of these would be used. First across the line wins, period. If you are old, well tough. You're old. Get used to it. If you are heavy, well either get a bigger board, or put that beer and burger down and get some exercise instead.

Gender is trickier. I'd leave that to the women to decide. Personally, the fact that Annabel Anderson can kick the a&* of all but handful of elite men (all of whom have more watersports experience than her) makes me wonder if women are really at much of a natural disadvantage. Sure, they have naturally a higher body fat ratio. But they also have lower centres of gravity, helping balance a great deal, and have better flexibility (especially as they get older compared to men) meaning they can typically use a much better range of motion to get speed (and therefore power) into the paddle.

Anyhow, that would be for debate. But I'd definitely run the women alongside the men, and let them draft men if they want to. Men and women treated equally.

So a Zone event would stand for freedom from regulations. And no excuses! Just speed, skill and fun.

Then people could just buy the board that is best for them, rather than having what they paddle dictated to them by an ad hoc alliance of race organisers and manufacturers. When all is said and done, paddling should be about enjoyment, and no-one enjoys paddling a board that is not right for them.

3888

Downwind and Racing / Re: Durability of carbon boards, specifically Fanatic race 12'6"x30.5?

« on: October 26, 2012, 12:43:07 PM »

...But there is one interesting thing though. The Competitor is very light but I think that Fanatic has gone one step further making a 14' that is almost as light (+ 0.5 kg) as the Surftech and still bomb proof

I have never owned a Fanatic, but I've seen many boards that friends have owned, and that they have raced hard and treated not so gently. And I've compared rental Fanatic surf SUPs after a year of beginners abusing them to a range of other makes that were bought at the same time. I have been enormously impressed with their construction. It seems to me that some other manufacturers have a lot to learn from them.

3889

Gear Talk / Re: Any production board faster than a K15 in flat water?

« on: October 26, 2012, 12:25:19 PM »

I do remember when the original 14' Javelin came out, some people who also had unlimited boards felt the Javelin was as fast or nearly as fast (but less stable).  And the new ones are faster yet.  And they were comparing it to 17' or 18' boards.

Good point. I remember that too. But opinion seems perhaps to have converged since on the opinion that for the average rider, the 14ft Javelin is about the same speed as the 17ft Javelin. And since the K15 has the slight edge on the Naish 17 in most (but not all, I contest) flatwater conditions, then it perhaps follows that the Javelin 14 is not faster than the K15. It may be very similar, or even the same, but not faster, maybe. But if someone has data out there to disprove this then I would be extremely interested.

3890

Gear Talk / Re: Any production board faster than a K15 in flat water?

« on: October 26, 2012, 11:11:32 AM »

Yep, at least with the Naish 17 Glide. In shallow perfectly flat water with no current there is surprisingly little difference between the K15 and the Naish 17 in my experience (and I've GPSed them back-to-back).

However, when going downstream there is a clear difference. I've noticed this with other displacement hull (rounded bottom) boards - my theory (but I have no evidence to support it) is that the rounded bottom of a displacement board "sits" in the water, rather than the planing hull board sitting "on" the water. So when you are moving in the direction of the current, the displacement hull can benefit more from the energy in the water. It might also be something to do with the difference in beams (26.75" vs. 30").

So, unless the Javelin for some reason became suddenly faster than the Glide 17 (and I don't think the basic design changed much, if at all) then I think the K15 could still be said to be a faster flat water board. But you are right, the Naish 17 is surprisingly fast and will see many 14ft race boards a clean pair of heels.

I was wondering whether anyone was going to argue that the new breed of super-narrow and super-light race 14ft boards were faster than a K15, which is after all, several years old in design, and weighs a ton.

3891

Flatwater and Touring / Re: 7 mile excursion on a Surf SUP

« on: October 26, 2012, 09:13:07 AM »

Wow! Lovely pics.

Couldn't be much more different than my 7-miler today: dark and overcast, rain, cold NE wind, air 8C...too dark for my camera to take decent pictures even if I thought any of you would want to see them. Which you wouldn't.

Thanks for reminding me of what I haven't got!

But seriously, thanks for sharing. Beautiful.

3892

Downwind and Racing / Re: Durability of carbon boards, specifically Fanatic race 12'6"x30.5?

« on: October 26, 2012, 09:07:16 AM »

Henrik F - unfortunately I think someone might have sold you the wrong construction (if you were not intending to get the Pro-Elite). As Surfer44 says, my Dominator, which is definitely Pro-Elite construction, just has exactly the same sticker as your does on it, saying Tuflite.

I don't think the models that came out for the first year or so had the "ProElite" badge on them, even though they were a different construction than the heavier Tuflite.

So I reckon your Competitor is actually the light and fragile ProElite race construction not the more durable standard one.

3893

Gear Talk / Any production board faster than a K15 in flat water?

« on: October 26, 2012, 08:51:56 AM »

I regularly paddle with the tidal current up (or down) an estuary, with mild wind my back (10-20mph) and just small chop. I am constantly surprised how fast friends of mine who are paddling Starboard K15 boards are in those conditions compared with anything that I paddle.

These are guys I paddle with a lot in many different conditions, with us on various boards, so I know that this observation is not a freak or a one-off: it is it is that the K15 is particularly good in those conditions.

So here is a question for you all out there: Is there any production board that is generally and currently available worldwide that is faster than the K15 in those conditions?

To avoid the usual issues about differences in paddlers etc. let us say that we are talking about the paddlers being competent but not elite paddlers with average balance weighing around the 170-190lb range.

(By the way, if anyone knows if there have been any changes to the K15 board in construction - especially weight, handle, fin box - for 2013 I'd be pleased to hear that too.)

Thanks for your advice.

Let the pimp-fest begin!

3894

Downwind and Racing / Re: Wow skinny boys are winning all the races!

« on: October 25, 2012, 12:25:06 PM »

That would be a shame. It is about time that the K15 had a rival. Why give one of your main competitors such a gift?

But your reply illustrates my point: I am saying that availability will drive demand. The Naish 17 isn't a particularly good comparison because it was not a flat water board. It probably would have done better if it had in fact been flat water oriented (it is surprisingly fast, as you know, as a flat water board). But it was a rather specialised downwind board at a time when downwinding had not taken off.

Any racer will naturally try to choose the fastest board. If you are a flat water racer, at the moment all you have is the K15 if you are a big guy and you want a production board that will allow you to arrive home before everyone else. There are many countries (including the UK) where there are no established local custom board producers. It's an open goal for someone. The first company to take that opportunity may go down in SUP history as having created the key board that changed race divisions for ever. I had hoped it would be Naish.

3895

Downwind and Racing / Re: UK Downwinding

« on: October 25, 2012, 11:41:02 AM »

BTW the pirates have been in action off Somalia (opposite coast/Indian Ocean side) - don't think they'll be looking for unlimited boards off Senegal.

I'm sure you know better than I do. Perhaps I have been misled by news articles like this one:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/5371052.stm

Sleeping on a boat at night seems a much more appealing idea to me... Hats off to both of them. I hope they get the recognition they deserve.

3896

Downwind and Racing / Re: Wow skinny boys are winning all the races!

« on: October 25, 2012, 11:27:41 AM »

I can't imagine how retailers are going to transport, display and demo 18ft boards though...

My guess would be the same way the surf-ski guys manage to do it.......we have hundreds of those things taking part in races every week down here.

Yep, but many countries don't, including those with the key inland waterways which are the main growth area for flat water racing. The transport costs of a board like that in e.g. Europe is going to be astonomical. Shipping a 14ft board from Germany to the UK recently cost the equivalent of 25% of the total retail price of the board. That's just from one European country to another nearby one. And most surf shops are way too small to display or store 18ft boards.

But I sure hope that the Naish 18 is a success because I can imagine that if it is made with broad appeal, it could be a turning point in the whole (length)class war. And Naish will have stolen a complete hand-down victory of their competitors. I would very much like their initiative to be rewarded in that way.

My guess though is that it will have to be some other manufacturer who takes this step (perhaps SIC?) because the Naish 18 will turn out to be a super-tippy and super-expensive highly specialised confection. But I sure hope I am wrong. At 18ft long it could easily be even 27.5" wide and still beat hands-down its only obvious production rival in its class. I think they'd be queues a mile long for a board like that: fastest production board on the market and stable enough for most conditions? Yes please.

3897

Downwind and Racing / Re: Wow skinny boys are winning all the races!

« on: October 25, 2012, 10:52:42 AM »

There's clearly a chicken-and-egg situation here: people use these lengths because they are what is available, and what is available is what people will use.

To my knowledge there is only ONE widely available production unlimited board available at the moment - the Starboard K15.

But soon there will be the new Naish 18fter. If Naish can resit the temptation to make it so narrow and expensive that only sponsored riders will want one, and instead make it a fast and user-friendly competitor to the fast and user-friendly (and therefore successful) K15, then things might begin to change.

On the face of it, the Naish 18 should be the fastest UL production board out there the moment it has arrived, and I can imagine that appealing to a whole lot of people, especially the beefy units. It won't then be long before people get tired of coming in behind people they know to be slower paddlers than them, and hey presto, we free ourselves up from these arbitrary constraints.

I can't imagine how retailers are going to transport, display and demo 18ft boards though...

3898

Downwind and Racing / Re: First DW'er on the Cadillac. (Coreban Dart)

« on: October 25, 2012, 07:18:25 AM »

Cool.  Did the extra width and stability give it a feeling of being slow?

To be honest yes.. It did.. But not by much.. My Glide is only about 27" wide.. The Dart is more like 30" wide...It's mostly noticeable when trying to accelerate the board.. Wider is more stable though.

Nah, it's largely about the conditions. I don't think it's accurate when considering downwind boards (as opposed to flat water ones, where it is shaky enough) to describe which board is "faster". This will change with the conditions. DJ - You downwind in a bay, and your videos rarely show bumps over about knee or thigh height. Try the two boards in bigger conditions in open waters and the Dart for all but the very most elite will be faster (and even the elite will be faster on the Dart when conditions go totally ballistic). You have to be really quite advanced, or very small, to enjoy a 27" wide 14ft board in open waters, big winds, and more than thigh-high bumps.

The Dart is not without its compromises. But they are surprisingly few, and if your aim is just to be fast on a downwinder then that is mostly about consistency of catching and riding the bumps, and a board that has the right stability for you will always be faster in the long run. Fortunately this also coincides with what is plain fun, since few people enjoy having to regularly clamber back on their boards and get back up and running in howling winds. Plus, fighting to stay upright is just plain fatiguing, and after an hour or so for most people it really begins to take its toll.

I'd be very happy if you come over the the UK to take you out on a Naish Glide (or Javelin) and a Dart and you can try them back to back. You will in my opinion be surprised at how much faster you will be, and how much more fun you will have, on the Dart. You will probably spend a lot of time getting cold in the water on the Naish... You gotta choose your DW board according to your conditions just like you would choose a surf SUP to suit your local conditions.

Love the pics, btw, DJ.

3899

Downwind and Racing / Re: UK Downwinding

« on: October 25, 2012, 05:21:09 AM »

Perhaps it's just an Eccentric English thing??

Apparently not. Chris Bertish is planning to SUP from Dakar in Senegal to Caicim in Brazil, aiming to do it between Feb and April 2013. He reckons it will take over two months in total, paddling the equivalent of over a marathon a day, for sixty five days straight.



So, yes, trying to SUP the Atlantic seems crazy, prima facie. But there are a few thinking about it.

By the way, I really don't like this "you can do anything as long as you believe you can" crap at the start of the video. No doubt it is well-meaning, and call me an old cynic if you want to (well, a cynic anyway), but it just isn't true, is it? If I believed that one day I could flap my arms and fly, it would just make me a deluded fool not a pioneering spirit. I like to see ambition tempered by realism. But maybe for that reason I have no future in marketing...

You gotta wish these guys the best of luck though, and admire their willingness to try what seems an impossible task - or at least one requiring an extraordinary amount of luck. If Chris is going near Senegal I hope his family have a ransom sum saved for when the pirates abduct him... if they don't just plain kill him and steal his gear first.

3900

Downwind and Racing / Re: First DW'er on the Cadillac. (Coreban Dart)

« on: October 25, 2012, 03:44:30 AM »

I noticed quite a bit of "submarine bow", even when you stepped back...hmmm....

If you mean the bit at 2:00 in DJ's vid, nah, looks to me that he's just so busy showing off waving his hand in the air that he cocks it up. There's no need to submarine the Dart. Despite its size, it likes to be "surfed" rather than ridden standing there like a tree waiting to be felled. Check out Charlie Head riding the Dart in the little 20-second sequence from 40 secs onwards in this vid:



You will notice in the early shots of the board in Charlie's vid that the Coreban Dart has a stomp pad at the back of it. It is there for a reason - and when you are back on it, you can manage to take even the most severe drops.

The other explanation of course for DJ's submarine antics is that he is effectively the direct marketing wind of Naish Inc. so he doesn't want to make the board look too good! Damning with faint praise seems to be the tactic here. But I guess we should be thankful for that - he's been less kind about e.g. Starboards in the past.

However, perhaps he also has included the submarine sequence to show that no matter how much of a dummy you are being, the Dart will usually keep you upright and moving forward - which is pretty much spot-on.  I could see in his new Naish Glide vids a distinct improvement in DJ's riding from the earliest to the lastest - it takes a little time to get any downwind board dialled in. So I doubt if DJ tried the Dart again, especially in critical conditions, he would be poking the nose nearly as much. One of the great things about its stability is that it allows you to move around the board very easily and stay out of trouble.

In fact, if you compare DJ's progress on the Dart in the rest of the vid with that of his progress on the recent videos he has posted of him on the Naish, then I found myself beginning to wonder if the Dart isn't actually a better board for him...