Messages

106

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Tips and tricks you've invented to get through the shorebreak/out of impact zone

« on: February 18, 2021, 07:17:43 PM »

I surf, kite, kitefoil, surf foil, sup foil, etc ... but by far wing foiling is the most out of control and humbling when getting worked in waves.  I broke my wing leash on a recent failed attempt, went over the falls backwards, wing and board entwined. Another I broke a foil wingtip ... though that was coming in, not going out ... which is another can of worms too!   I am also all about the waves...but play with fire you gonna get burned, only a matter of time before I destroy my gear. 

I have reel leash attached to back of harness too.  The one local spot that's an issue, we go way down the beach to where there's a slight point, which makes the wave break a few feet further out, rather than shorepound....just enough to punch through. 

Getting up on board on your knees, but not yet standing....so awkward in between. One key for me is you must hit the white water straight on, even a little to the side and you might get broad sided. 

I've found if the wave is big enough and breaking hard enough that you are sure you aren't going to make it, then better to eject before it hits....let the board go, hold the wing out if you can.

Carib: great idea about mooring buoy....I have thought of that as an option too....paddle out board without wing, tie it off, then after swim out the wing....could maybe help in a situation where it's difficult or impossible otherwise.

107

Foil SUP / Re: Switch to Prone (Pros/Cons)

« on: February 16, 2021, 01:31:59 PM »

Speed is another indicator.  Big Waves = FAST.  Small Waves = SLOW.

There is a HUGE difference between 17 mph and 21 mph.  The only way to go >> 20 mph is on a big wave going straight (e.g. > 10 feet) or ripping down the line on a 6 - 8 footer at Pipeline.  Good luck on the foil.  Please share your speed data it will be informative. 

You are making the same point:  Big Days - SUP Foil.  Little days optimized for Prone foil.

I was recording sessions for a while, but the data is locked in my broken phone. From my journal notes: my fastest ride was on SUP on a bigger wave: 42kmh.  But my fastest prone ride on that same day, slightly smaller spot, was 41kmh.  26 vs 25mph.

I agree that sup foil has greater potential for higher speeds, given the challenges of prone paddling in to bigger waves earlier.  But I don't agree about twice as fast and definitely not on average.  Quite the opposite: on a typical day around here, on regular size foil wave, the proners are likely going 50% faster and covering way more ground with racing down the line and cutbacks to the peak, etc.

Back to the OP: I love sup foiling and still do it on its day, but prone foil is generally more dynamic and fast. I see it as roughly equivalent to SUP vs shortboard surfing for most riders.

108

Foil SUP / Re: Switch to Prone (Pros/Cons)

« on: February 15, 2021, 07:39:48 PM »

I guess it's similar for me, if it's head high plus I can get in early on a sup foil, but the logistics don't work on surf foil. I can't paddle fast enough to get in early, and taking off where you'd normally drop in a surfboard is too steep and pitchy for me to make.  So on big days I prone the inside reform, taking off in the white water.  As the pump monkeying advances, I hope to one day pump back out to the double overhead cranker and get the mile long ride. 

Seems odd about the prone speeds you posted though.  I am going faster than that on 3' waves and I am far from the local ripper.  Something wrong with the tech maybe?  My fastest speed has also been on sup foil on a bigger day, within a few mph though.

109

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Board Leash Not Needed Anymore

« on: February 15, 2021, 06:58:35 PM »

Gone-foiling: makes sense. I don't envy you that put-in (though awesome to have fun waves to play in once you get past it). We occasionally get onshore wind waves that stack up and it is a s**t show when it goes sour.  Of all wave oriented sports I do, wing foiling is the most helpless feeling when stuck in waves. 

Dwight: thanks for carrying out the experiment and posting results. That sounds like a fail.  At least you are able to keep distant constant, versus swimming it would be gone quick.  However, if the wind was side-off, you'd be waving it g'bye. I really like the idea and hope to figure out a way ... but right now the leash-hassle still seems worth putting up with
 

110

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Board Leash Not Needed Anymore

« on: February 15, 2021, 07:48:25 AM »

Bill, depends on your put in location. Here is mine typical NW day.
Good luck with wing leash attached to your waist - I was never able to get out. When it is on my wrist no problem. Yeah and riding in this with no board leash - my blessings.

Can you explain how the wrist leash mount vs waist is helping you in that situation?  Is it when wing is flagging out in high winds or being pulled by waves?  I find paddling is much easier if the wing isn't attached to your arm.

111

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Board Leash Not Needed Anymore

« on: February 14, 2021, 09:45:19 PM »

The wing leash is least obtrusive when connected to my waist. But connected to my waist can be a PIA with a board leash also connected to my waist. I will never wear a leg leash.

I am wearing a shorts harness these days. I attach wing leash to front and have reel leash hanging off the rear grab line.  Seems to keep them separated nicely

112

Foil SUP / Re: Switch to Prone (Pros/Cons)

« on: February 14, 2021, 12:16:30 PM »

Me: still picture myself a shortboard surfer, but have had to face the fact in my early 50s and have been riding longboards, then sups, then kiting, then kitefoiling, then sup foiling -- haven't really shortboarded in 10-15 years. 

My buddy was keen on prone surf only and he dedicated himself to it.  On my supfoil, I would get 5x the waves and ride them 5x as long, but he just kept slogging away. And then I noticed something changing....he was getting just as many waves as me, and on choppy days and big days (where he could take off in white water) he was getting a lot more.  And, being brutally honest, he was riding them with a way more aggressive style and more flow -- with the external evidence being bystanders commenting on how he was ripping and then "oh yeah, I saw you out there too".  ;-)

So I followed my spiritual guide, paid the humbling price in climbing the learning curve, and now am 85% prone foiler.  It is better in almost every way: faster, more dynamic, more versatile.  And it allows for riding on choppy days that are otherwise unsup-able -- same with riding inside reforms on the big days. Plus I am in the best paddling shape since my 30s....I suspect I could actually reasonably surf a shortboard again, should I ever want to try. At least a higher volume one ;-)

Sup foil still has some advantages: really tiny surf that is barely breaking is very challenging to prone paddle, can just squeak in with extra paddle power.   Breaks that have an exceptionally long ride, 500m+, it is so much faster to sup paddle back, and can change it up, with knee paddle, prone paddle, etc.  I am too old and tired to do too many half mile paddle backs.  So the exception is if walk backs are possible, then I'd still prefer prone foil.

Sup foil also has advantage for diversifying into wing foil -- where a surf foil is possible, but it is easy to start on a sup foil.  So don't get rid of that sup foil rig!

So, my advice is DO IT.  The learning curve sucks, will take 5-10 sessions to get that pop up dialed.  Then once you're up and riding, I bet you'll have the same feeling as me "this exactly the same flying feeling as sup foil, just so much more light and free".

And then a final word on top: my surf foil mentor remains a few steps ahead of me. He is now pump monkeying solidly, getting 2 for 1s and 3 for 1s and pumping all the way back outside (saving roughly half the paddling in a session).  Once I can do this too, it will open up a lot of potential ... the dream being chipping in on a small one, pumping outside to the big set, and effectively getting a self tow-in.  Keep in mind my surf mentor is same age as me, so we're not talking impossible kid dreams here!


 

113

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Board Leash Not Needed Anymore

« on: February 12, 2021, 01:52:37 PM »

Interesting. That's going to require some practice in varied conditions to see how reliable it is.  I suspect it is easier in high winds, as there's more force to push you.  My wingmare was losing my board in 8-10kt wind, not enough for me to get up on foil, and then when I fell off, it turns out it's plenty enough for the board to sail away faster than I can swim.   So, will this method actually work to propel you in light wind too?  If yes, awesome, maybe one less leash needed. But if not, or even if it's kinda/maybe but not 100% reliable, then it's seems ffy to imply to newbs that leashes are unnecessary. I am increasingly seeing snarky comments on facebook groups implying leashes are for kooks, setting up a similar culture to not using helmets in kiting because it's uncool.

A difference for leashes in kiting is that using a leash is more dangerous than not using one, in 99% of conditions.  In winging it's the opposite, likely safer 99% of the time.  A leash is at most a minor inconvenience, except for those jumping or freestyling.  And in waves I think it's mandatory -- for the reasons Gunnar states on his site, as runaway boards are dangerous to others.   

Cap'n Safety out! 

114

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: What foil? Go foil GL/NL quiver or change everything and buy brand.....

« on: February 11, 2021, 10:31:48 AM »

Thanx
The good news is that if I have ordered the GL210/NL160/backwing/pedestral set my creditcard us useless anyway so can use if for shimming

@Juan,
Thanks for the info! Whats your weight and from your buddy as that has influence on the wingsize too.

I must say an 210GL and 160 NL looks very tempting.

credit card.....hahahaha good on ya! Seriously though, I tend toward frugal/cheap as, but will thrown down when needed ... and for me, I want to try for next-level performance, and I needed to be sure the gear had no limitations, so any problems are isolated to me and technique and training and practice. 

I am 165lb, buddy is 200ish.  I mostly prone surf foil, he mostly sup foils.  I tend to ride one foil-wing size down between prone and sup foil, and one foil-wing size up winging. I have two masts, can generally have my sup/wing foil and surf foil always set up and ready to go (sprinter van, yeewwww). But that's where the NL160 has been a surprise so far....I find I am using it equally for surf, sup, and winging....and finding I am switching it a lot more than I'm used to.  Either it's the honeymoon period or that wing is magic.  Maybe both.

I ride gofoil mostly as it kind of worked out that way -- a big part of it being the gear felt safer than the slingshot's metal and sharp edges, my wife actually encouraged me to upgrade!  Though that is one negative of the NL series, those wingtips are razor sharp, I took a file to them after nearly taking an eye out (freak accident).  The other negative of NL is the wingtips are fragile, one is now broke off.  :-(  Oh and another negative I don't like...having to take the rubber mallet to it to get wings off. 

For other brands, seems to me Armstrong is widely regarded as the best in show, with prices to reflect it.  Gong is in bottom third, but seems servicable for the price. Overall, Axis seems best value, in finding the sweet spot at the high end of alum mast gear and wings for everyone -- maybe too many options.

I think gofoil lost its market dominance in being slow to move to HA wings.  But now that it's gone there, into its 3rd gen, I have to say there was something to the simplicity of having 3 wings total, just use the one that's sized best for the day, spend a lot of time to learn its quirks and how to max it out.  Now, with so much choice and limited water-time, there's the risk of spreading my learning time too thin.

Beasho: thanks for tip on shim, going to try that

115

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: What foil? Go foil GL/NL quiver or change everything and buy brand.....

« on: February 10, 2021, 09:24:36 PM »

Buddy and I have been on Gofoil past 2 seasons, upgraded from slingshot, have been loving the kai/iwa/m200 combo for surf, sup, and winging.   The M200 has been my go to for wing, I find the iwa only has enough lift in very strong winds.

We recently updated to GL wings to get the high aspect thing going, me a 180 and 240, buddy a 210.  Tons of glide and speed, great lift, but turning was slightly challenging, required quite a bit different approach.

I knew I'd get it with practice, but decided to throw $ at the problem, I got NL 160, buddy got NL 190.  Loving it surf foil, instantly.  And on wing, also loving it...it has been pretty windy, so the 160 has been amazing, has had no lift issues yet.  My buddy though, he is finding HA transition not as great, he is back to switching off with his tried and true M200 and Iwa...just likes how stable and turney they are comparatively.

Anyways, that's our story if it helps. And have GL 180 and 210 for sale, pm me if want info. In Canada though, may be prohibitive shipping.

116

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Fanatic 5’4” foil board?

« on: January 30, 2021, 10:23:37 AM »

Seems sensible....the 5' works, but the 5'4" opens up ease of use just that little bit extra perhaps.

That brings up a thought....maybe one of rippers can comment.  I know the smaller the board the better the ride....but how much better?

EG: The sky 5x24x5.5 board at 75L can be knee started, just barely, easy in high wind, doable in medium wind, challenging in light wind.  The armstrong 4.11x21x3 surf foil at 30ishL is a full-on sinker ... doable in high wind, challenging in medium, not doable in light wind. 

So in med-high wind, how much better is the performance of a sinker board for all aspects of riding, carving in waves, pumping, etc versus the same length but thicker and wider knee-starter?  Airs are obvious, lighter and smaller is optimal.  But for other riding aspects....anticipate smaller board is more responsive....but a little bit better or a lot better?  I guess ultimately the question....is the investment in the learning curve and the lower-end suffering worth it?  :-)

117

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Fanatic 5’4” foil board?

« on: January 30, 2021, 09:34:05 AM »

@Caribsurf, I'm same weight and 10+lbs with full rubber up here in PNW (Vanc.Isl), riding the 5'0 Sky Wing. Similar story, went from my sup foil BluePlanet 6'6 116 lt to the 5'0 75 lt sky for winging only. I have to get up onto board and onto knees with wing in air very quickly to balance as it's very pitchy twitchy, you cant just sit there on knees or stand without wing pressure. It's a combination of the narrow width (24") and short length that make for a really small balance point/zone on the board while dead in the water, but I love it once up and winging it's is sooo much fun on a small board, and it actually made transitions so much easier for me.  There are times i have to prone paddle out to wind line or in from wind line.   That being said, I have a friend with the 5'4 Sky Wing and he to loves his board and has none of the issues that I have for stability as it's a considerably wider board, more length, and with 20 litres more volume.  He was a windsport rookie going directly to the 5'4 Sky. He is 165 and 10+lbs with rubber, so close to you if you're not all bundled up too?  I'm quite sure, I would have no issues with the 5'4 too at those dimensions, haven't tried his board yet but hope to.

I made an homage/copy of Rob's 5' ... it is a fun one. I was immensely relieved first time trying it, that i was able to make it work.  Though I didn't get enough days in the dependable summer wind to really feel comfortable, it's a bit of work to get up, especially in medium to marginal wind.  So I end up riding it a bit tentative, i.e., afraid to make turns or try stuff as I dread the water start, especially once tired.  Need more time on water to get it feeling comfortable.  But in light wind, I have my doubts I will ever get comfortable, my big 6'10" sup foil is just so easy and fun it's hard to give up.

Rob: if you could go back in time, would you still buy the 5' or would you prefer the 5'4" as more an all-rounder?  Seems like that would give up slight performance but with a lot of low-end benefit.  And since i am not exactly pushing loops, I don't know if that performance benefit is worth the cost. I am considering gluing some blanks to make a 5'4" homage next.

118

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Winging in very strong wind try2

« on: January 30, 2021, 09:26:00 AM »

Juan, get something smaller than 4 meter, smaller than 3 meter if you can. I bought a 2.8 Naish the first time I

After my last few storm sessions, I am definitely in the hunt. Though TBH I have been surprised/stoked how well my 4m has fared in way too much wind for it.  Challenging but doable.

I almost pulled the trigger on a 3m Hot Wings used from Maui that I saw on craigslist. But if I am into the upper end used market or new prices, I am waiting to see what the Ocean Rodeo wings look like.  Local company. And the allula material may be a game changer for the frame, thinner chambers with more strength.  However, if the kites are an indicator, they will be priced accordingly too! 

There's another point about high wind winging....it is much harder on the gear.  Things move faster and there's a lot more opportunity for pointy foils to connect with soft fabrics.  Not to mention foils and boards meeting ground....the shorebreak can get intense, and man it sucks trying to get in managing board, foil, and wing....when it hits the fan, at least one gets sacrificed.  Last 2 sessions I broke a wing leash and a foil wingtip.      Flat water summer thermals this ain't.   Anyways....point is....this sport isn't like kiting, where you might baby your gear and sell it used for 75% what you paid.  Seems like these wings are likely to be disposable, when I am done with them, they may be mostly done! So gear will need refreshing sooner perhaps.

119

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Winging in very strong wind try2

« on: January 29, 2021, 09:56:58 AM »

Unless my wife comes and films me, I Won’t have any video. I used to use a go pro while surfing, windsurfing and SUP surfing and found them a Royal PITA. Spent more time fidgeting with the damn camera, that  I’d miss waves.  The 1st few videos were cool and exciting , but quickly got boring and it wasn’t worth the trouble.

Likewise...I stopped using the gopro because I found the extreme fisheye flattens the view to an extreme. So that epic day with head high wind swells ... looks about ankle high on the video.  And then my memory fades, that video remains, it replaces my memory, and the session no longer seems so rad.  Gopro became the buzzkill.    [and for proof of the flattening effect, look at Kai Lenny's videos of recent massive wave sessions....the video from shore shows a 50ft wave, the gopro looks kinda head high maybe  ]

Anyways, 40kts is a pretty clear line for me, in kiting ... it is when the balance of exhiliration/fear tips more solidly to fear.  40kt is where you start getting the smoke on the water effect and the ocean seems alive and angry.  To make it work with a 4m wing, the take-off had to be pretty close to straight downwing....floating pretty fast downwind with wing neutral until get the balance, then up and on foil instantly, focusing on not breaching. A smaller than normal foil wing was needed.  Gybes also had to be straight downwind ... with a long pause in between to get speed under control before edging the turn.  That is where i discovered that I had become a sail, at times I would just keep accelerating straight downwind, even with kite flying free on its leash....lots of huge explosive wipeouts.  While riding across the wind, I kept the wing close to straight overhead, with the back hand sheet-in just a light tease to gain enough power, but spilling out maybe 75%.  I don't claim to be ripping, it was survival conditions for sure, most of the time I focused on a locked-in maximum upwind angle, to make up for the lost real estate in the long downwind turns.  But when I did feel comfortable enough to let it go and ride the swells downwind, it was amazingly effortless, so much power to spare, staying up on foil for long stretches without the wing was easy.

To give some context for the 40kt claim: at one point I had to get to beach, park my gear, so that I could emergency land my kite buddy -- he was out of control and in danger mode way downwind, on a 4m kite. Yikes!

I am hooked -- my original plan was that winging would be a light wind alternative, but I'd kite when the real wind arrived.  My plans have now changed, if anything I am keeping my kite gear only for the 10-15kt days when winging is underpowered and "meh".  For that, I'd rather be ripping around on my kitefoil. Or just surf foiling if there's waves. Winging is most fun for me when it's 20+

120

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Winging in very strong wind try2

« on: January 28, 2021, 04:33:53 PM »

Was talking to a long-time kiter / wing noob about this today ... I am selling my small kites, as I don't think I'll be chasing 40kt+ kiting any more.  For one, I have always found it scary ... even with a 4m kite, the power involved is intense, and if s**t goes wrong it'll be so fast you can't react. Second, 40kt storm days actually mean 30-50kt, and potentially deadly squalls. So I spend my entire session half-scared.

Last couple stormy days, I went out on my 4m wing and it was a gas.  A real challenge to hang on and keep it down, but was able to make it work into the mid 40s.  The wind swells at that wind strength are amazing.  And a super cool thing: at times I was semi out of control, completely dropped the wing and raced straight downwind....at that wind speed, your body becomes a wing, you can stay on foil just from own wind projection. And the kite flies on its own.  I now understand better how high wind downwinders work! 

Anyways, I am looking for a 2.5m wing.   As well, in super high winds....that's the time to try out the sinker board I reckon.