Messages

31

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Wings Icing Up, Does that Damage The Wing?

« on: December 31, 2023, 11:28:38 AM »

I wouldn't expect the simple act of icing to damage it. However, the fact that it would be iced and then flapping in the wind cracking, rewetting, refreezing, (basically everything about winging) would not do the fabric any favors in my imagination.

It would be great to hear from manufacturers about this. I wonder how dacron, vs super fabrics would compare too. In the climbing world we used dyneema in the ice because it wouldn't absorb water and freeze. We disliked it long term and in summer use since it was so sun sensitive.

32

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Calculating your BARG Factor.

« on: December 28, 2023, 12:09:59 AM »

I would think there are other things to consider.  Were you using the same foil when comparing all of the boards?  Was the mast position tuned for each board?  Were the bottom shapes off all of the boards the same?  I would think that bottom shapes would be a big influence on ease of popping up.  And was the same tail used for all the testing  (same foil profile, size, same shim angle)?  Same energy in the water? (different days, different energy)
I'm am not sure about your equation.   You are focusing on Guild factor. Guild factor could have an influence, but I would think you would have to be at the extremes to feel much of a difference, G/F < 0.8 or > 2. 
Rather than Guild factor, I would be interested to hear the relation of surface area (or projected area) of a foil to a riders weight.  A smaller lighter rider can get by with a smaller faster foil.  Where a heavier rider will need a larger foil, but have to deal with the increased drag.

No doubt a complicated recipe to get it all right.  My hat is off to all of the early adopters paving the way.

I use foils for kiting.  My first foil was a 5'6" x 16" 2002 Rush Randle W/L 0.29.
Second board was a liquid force 4'2" x 19.5" W/L 0.39 (with 2017 Cloud IX foil).
Different foils for each board.  Boards have completely different bottom contours.  Volume unimportant.  The W/L 0.39 has a lower takoff speed, but the foil section is thicker and probably larger area too.

I think you're on the path of the old saying: "Perfect is the enemy of good." I can only imagine the nuanced details of an equation that would take into consideration the water condition, wind condition, board shape, foil design, even riders style would need to be quantified somehow. However, as a basic template to consider what to try for new production boards or custom designs/shapes/volumes I think this is a valid reference point to consider. These basic conclusions were made after compiling data from over 100 kits and probably 70 riders. I think I'm aiming for something simple and widely useful in this first crack. If we dive too deep the equation become unusable to most. If you can't touch a board, what equation can use the generic information that is published by most board manufacturers? Even weight isn't published by many!

So yes, lets figure out the perfect equation, but let's not forget about the guy who lives in remote Alaska and wants to order a board and has no reference point to make his purchase off of!

33

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Calculating your BARG Factor.

« on: December 27, 2023, 11:59:31 PM »

I've been working on a simple equation to roughly calculate ease of takeoff for boards based on your board aspect ratio (B.A.R.) and your guild factor (G. Factor).

I've collected data from over 100 different riders and kits at this point and have a few notable data points to share, but need to more deeply refine this equation over time.

Here's how it works:
Calculate your board aspect ratio by simply dividing length by width. Add that number to your guild factor which is calculated by taking your boards liters, and dividing them into your weight in kgs.

OK - Here is my data. 

My Sailfish had a total of 5.88.  Was pretty good at Downwinding.  Then I added 2" of tail.  It is slightly better, but I may be getting better too. 

I have a board in the hopper that is 10'.  It will push your number to 7.01.  We will see how that works for paddle up. 

As you may be aware I have been focusing on keeping weight down with the HL factor which is (Weight in lbs / 100 Liters).  10.0 is par. 

• Sailfish Original - 5.88
• Sailfish New Tail - 6.03 - 8' x 21" x 6" x 130 liters @ 10.5 lbs.  Paddles up very well.  Gets up with a 5.5 meter sail in the lowest wind.  NO NEED FOR BIGGER SAIL.  Light weight 10.5 lbs means I don't need a smaller board.  No downside until you get into the open ocean, hard to start in 8+ foot open ocean conditions when its 20+ mph.  AKA too rolly polly.  Dicey on bigger waves meaning 7+ feet going fast with a bigger foil because of light weight.  BUT GREAT, GREAT in small short period chop
• BumbleBee - 4.42.  6' 9" x 26" x 5" 115 liters @ 11 lbs.  No way I would use this for downwinding unless it was perfect Gorge chip-in conditions.  Otherwise I love this board for SUP foiling in good, uncrowded conditions.  It is my preferred Wing Foil board.  Plenty of volume, 115 liters, means it never sinks and will work from 10 knots to 25 knots comfortably all on a 5.5 meter wing.  Because of its width, 26" it is stable in open ocean chop.  Still super light @ 11 lbs with footstrap.  So
• Javelin - 7.01   I am building this board.  10' x 22.75 x 5" should come in ~ 13 lbs.  Designed for big wave SUP foil Rhino Chasing.  Still being built.  Report to follow.

The Sailfish has ~ 170 sessions now
The BumbleBee has almost 100 sessions

It will be incredibly interesting to hear the results of the Javelin. With a BARG Factor all the way up to 7 it will be great to hear how performance at the extreme end is, to start to consider and evaluate where the point of diminishing returns is. Sharing all the data is how we find the sweet spots and know what to build next!

34

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Calculating your BARG Factor.

« on: December 27, 2023, 11:57:04 PM »

Been trying to paddle up/catch small bumps on a board with a 5.32 BARG for me.

It's been an excercise in futility but I did get a few quick elevator rides with a wing in crappy conditions. I have no doubt the thing would work fine for getting up with a wing in half decent conditions.

New board will be a 6.63 BARG and I am figuring if I cannot paddle that one off the water with a nice big foil then it ain't ever gonna happen. Should have a decent shot at ultra light wind wing popups as well.

Let us know how the new one goes!

35

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Calculating your BARG Factor.

« on: December 27, 2023, 04:05:47 PM »

I've been working on a simple equation to roughly calculate ease of takeoff for boards based on your board aspect ratio (B.A.R.) and your guild factor (G. Factor).

I've collected data from over 100 different riders and kits at this point and have a few notable data points to share, but need to more deeply refine this equation over time.

Here's how it works:
Calculate your board aspect ratio by simply dividing length by width. Add that number to your guild factor which is calculated by taking your boards liters, and dividing them into your weight in kgs.

My board progression as examples:
85kg rider.

Learned for 10 days on an 8’x30” 170l monster.
AR = 3.2
GF = 1.98
Sum = 5.18 (very easy to get on foil, I don’t think I ever turned it, no skill yet. Worth noting I was up and foiling on my first day as a self taught rider with a wing. I also caught every wave I paddled for in the ocean even though I didn't know how to foil and just straight lined them back to shore)

First board I owned:
E3 5’10”x29” 123l 15.5lbs
BAR = 2.41
GF = 1.43
Sum = 3.84 (not to shabby to get on foil, crummy in the air)

E3 4’8”x26 83l 12.7lbs
BAR = 2.15
GF = .97
Sum = 3.12 (least favorite board I’ve ever owned terrible takeoff)

Barracuda 8’x21” 112l 13lbs
BAR = 4.57
GF = 1.3
Sum = 5.87 (easiest board I’ve ever had to get on foil and was fun in the air)

E3 5'3"x22" 83l 11.5lbs
BAR = 2.86
GF = .97
Sum = 3.83 (fun to ride and quite quick to take off in all but the most extremely light winds)

Custom 6'3"x20" 83l 9lbs
BAR = 3.75
GF = .97
Sum = 4.72 (extremely fast off the water, track boxes were awkwardly placed so I didn't get a good feel for it in the air unfortunately)

Sunova Carver 5'10"x20" 85l (arrives next week, weight tbd)
BAR = 3.5
GF = 1
Sum = 4.5 (unridden, testing begins early 2024)

Things to consider:
With the 100 or so data points I collected from other riders I asked for the sum to be reported and if they felt as though their board was "easy to waterstart." Here's what the results showed.
Competent riders considered a BARG Factor of:
5 and higher to be capable for DW SUP.
3.5 and higher, to be easy to water start.
3.25 and lower, to be hard to water start.
BEGINNERS considered a BARG Factor of:
4.5 and higher to be easier to water start.
Anything below that was considered average/hard.

Conclusions this gives us:
This gives some rough guidelines for buyers who don't have extensive access to gear demos to consider.
This gives rough guidelines to beginners who are picking up their first board and want to consider if it will be easy to learn on, and if, when they progress, it would be considered easy for the average rider to get up on.
This gives us guidance on how easy takeoff will be.
I personally really like that this drives the conversation away from liters, and more towards shape, to define efficiency.

What this doesn't give us:
This does not take foil into consideration.
This doesn't give you a guide to how fun a board will be once in flight.
This doesn't take into consideration the nuanced details of hull design.
This doesn't take windspeed and water currents into consideration.
You can break this equation, for example: an 8'x1' sheet of plywood would have a BAR of 8 but a GF of 0 = BARG Factor of 8 which sounds highly efficient. But, this is yet to be tested and quite possibly not true.

I'll continue to refine this equation to try and take in additional considerations and how each aspect can be weighted and more correctly evaluated. However, while this should not be considered the final word on how to pick your next board, it absolutely is a worthy calculation to take into consideration if you are unsure and want to continue to explore the possibility of other shapes.

I, personally, expect to focus my research on board efficiency in the 4-4.75 range.

36

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Ultra Light Wind Winging w/DW Board and Small Wing

« on: December 20, 2023, 07:48:57 AM »

What do you mean by "Aluula is sensitive to trapped moisture"?  Ive been riding Aluula wings since they came out and while I did have an issue with an early batch of the material delaminating, I don't think it had to do with trapped moisture, and it seems that they have refined the material since that early batch (haven't had an issue since then).  I'm curious what issues you have seen?

While I am a big believer in the next-gen stiff materials, I actually think the super stiff wings often have worse low end than some of the more traditional material wings.  The weight difference is meaningful in these large wings though.

I, personally, have not had any issues with my Aluula, but I haven't had it terribly long either. However, I talked to one of the original designers of aluula and he said the major problem with it is that it isn't meant to get wet. As such, you'll read in the literature and I believe it even says on my wings "DO NOT STORE WET" which we all know is bad for our wigs in general, but it's especially bad for aluula as a laminated material. The trapped moisture wrapped up in the wing eventually penetrates the lamination and causes failures. Ho'okipa is not laminated, so that's not an issue.

I'm 100% a fan of the super fabrics. I desperately wish there were more Ho'okipa options out there, it's my favorite for price point to performance ratio. The Aluula is great, but has the interesting water issue. Dyneema is intriguing, but I am skeptical of it since as a climber, we knew it had significant fatigue issues caused by sun exposure. I'm excited for the new Ocean Rodeo Glide AA, but am trying to swallow the $2500 price tag for a 3m. I'd expect it to be the best wing on the market by far at that size though.

37

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Ultra Light Wind Winging w/DW Board and Small Wing

« on: December 19, 2023, 09:12:03 PM »

Some seriously good info above on gear and technique. I'm going to see how the paddle up efforts go with the new board and then make a decision. Right now based on this thread, a bunch of youtube reviews, and some input from Dwight I am leaning Slick 6.5 but this Cloud IX wing in the 6.0 also has my interest and by the time I pull the trigger that one might win out.

Looks like its just them and one other vendor that is using the Ho'okipa material for the leading edge and strut - I am assuming the canopy is dacron but can't find info on it - but it sounds really good and I have not found any negative opinions like with aluula.

One of those wings with with the long skinny board and big foil seems like my best shot to make that light wind technique cited above eventually work for me at my very convenient (but kinda lousy) spot.

Thanks for all the great input!

I, have both aluula and ho'okipa wings and would say this about the difference: The Aluula has a very crunchy/stiff feel to it and is very sensitive to trapped moisture (don't pack up wet!) whereas the Ho'Okipa has an incredibly supple feel to it, almost like a fine leather, and doesn't have the same water sensitivities. Beyond that, Cloud IX USA is based out of SoCal, where the wind is always light so they really have their big wings locked in.

Full disclosure, I became an ambassador for Cloud IX this year. I live in the Gorge and ride other brands for wings size 3m and below (like I said, they are locked in for big wings but their 2.8 is a dud), but hope to be working with them to develop some better small wings for the future. If you have any questions, or want to save a few bucks on the 6m, don't hesitate to shoot me a dm and I'll get you any info on that wing that you might want!

38

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Ultra Light Wind Winging w/DW Board and Small Wing

« on: December 18, 2023, 09:21:40 PM »

For what it's worth, my PR this year on the low end is 5-14 knots with a 4.2m Cloud IX Ho'okipa wing, 5'3x22" kalama e3 and Cloud IX fs1150 foil with 227 stab and 66cm mast. 85kg rider. I, personally, am totally sold on the superfabrics and doub't I'll buy a dacron wing again since we are now entering the age of ho'okipa, dyneema, aluula.

39

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Best Warm Weather Winging Spots For The Winter

« on: December 15, 2023, 11:00:57 PM »

Add Texas to the list.  Galveston, South Padre, and Corpus Christi.  I haven't been but I have friends who go and it looks like the conditions can be great.  Not sure about consistency though.

Winged Quintana yesterday which is near Galveston. Water 61 air 62 and dropping. Head south

45 water and 45 air temp in the gorge today. Galveston sounds like a dream in comparison

40

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: 400 Hours On Foil: A summer on narrow boards and the search for a perfect surf e

« on: November 23, 2023, 11:01:52 PM »

Glad to hear everyone is having so much success!

For what it's worth, I'm now 123 sessions deep into this year and have just put in an order for a 5'10"x20"@85l Sunova Carver as my next board. No footstrap inserts and vapor construction, hoping for a 10lbs build! Pulled the trigger on two new foils as well, the Code 720s and 770r. I've recently started to feel as though my Cloud IX fs850 is my "old man foil" which is probably just due to the fact that I have gotten so extremely comfortable on the smaller sizes and am looking for more speed.

Current winter conditions in the gorge are gusting up towards 60 knot days so I'm out on 2m wings with 850 foils as the largest and continue having too much fun as the season has wound down for most others! The increased board efficiency continues to be an absolute blast to experience day after day.

41

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: 400 Hours On Foil: A summer on narrow boards and the search for a perfect surf e

« on: October 16, 2023, 12:15:36 PM »

Thank you, that's extremely helpful. One question:

If you get a cuda, you need a new foil and new wings to go with it. ... If you just slap a big foil on it and use the same wing as always, you don't really have a concept of what is possible on it.

To be sure I understand, this is because the narrow board accelerates very quickly, so you can take off with a smaller foil and wing than with a wider board. And you'd be leaving a lot of speed/maneuverability/freedom/etc on the table if you didn't downsize your gear on the narrow board?

Yes, this is a correct understanding of the situation. Essentially, you need to completely re-quiver your setup to fully embrace narrow boards and everything they have to offer. Which is a tough pill to swallow for most. For most people, they could just use their smallest wing and then pick up a smaller foil as the first step in the right direction.

42

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: 400 Hours On Foil: A summer on narrow boards and the search for a perfect surf e

« on: October 11, 2023, 11:30:15 PM »

B-Walnut (or anyone else who has an opinion) can you comment on the upper end of things where in your experience having the cuda doesn't work so well for winging? For example what about:
- wind 20-30 (or even 30-35)
- big, long period open ocean swells
- lots of very messy short period wind chop

I'm intrigued and trying to understand under what conditions the cuda lags for winging. For example in 25 wind I can imagine the walk to/from the beach is a nightmare. You make a very good case for 10-25 wind and rolling swell.

You have an interesting take, thank you for sharing.

IMO the true negatives are very few.

Walking to the water in extreme winds is undoubtedly treacherous. That's a significant negative if you have exposed beaches and long walks in the wind. Almost all of the launches in the gorge are not an issue with this.

It's really easy to ding it because you're swinging such a big board around that doesn't fit in your car as easily.

I would pick it over a short wide board every day. A short narrow board will beat it though.

I did not have problems in small chop, or big swell. I did not have problems on a 66cm mast, or an 86cm mast.

Many people tried to tell me that the cuda won't work in heavy winds because "it has too much rail." This was nonsense in my experience. I ripped upwind in 40 knots on that board and never once thought to myself "woah, the wind is grabbing the board!"

I think people are looking for reasons to shoot it down even though they haven't ridden it. With that, the average person cannot correctly demo these boards. If you get a cuda, you need a new foil and new wings to go with it. My smallest foil was a 1210 and I rode 3.5-4.5m wings every day before getting it. When I had it, I preferred to ride a 700 foil with a 2.5-3.5m wing. That opens the board up to its full potential. If you just slap a big foil on it and use the same wing as always, you don't really have a concept of what is possible on it.

43

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: 400 Hours On Foil: A summer on narrow boards and the search for a perfect surf e

« on: October 09, 2023, 05:18:12 PM »

B-Walnut, loved reading this.. I'm exactly the same as you. All about waves, no freestyle and I try to spend the least on hand wings and use money for foils.  I have a 1 board quiver 4'10 22" 60L for my 78kgs for the ocean . I only wing in 12 knots or over. I own a 5m and a 4m, 900 and 1100cm3,  8.4ar foils. Applying your logic I could probably have a 5'3 80L 21" board and use a 3m and a 4m wing and a 700 and 900 foil. Which does sound very tempting....

*A side note - width definitely makes a bigger difference when on foil than I first though. I prone surf using foil drive and a 4'6 35L board. I tried a 19" wide 4'2 and I completely over foiled. On turns I put way too much pressure and it felt twitchy. I'm sure I could be comfortable after a few sessions but for now I'm happy with a slightly wider board.

Thanks for chiming in! My new board is coming (this week!?) and I continue to test the limits of small wings, boards, foils. Right now conditions have been over nuked and will continue to be that way through most of the winter here. I've been riding a 2m strike (almost zero low end) with my 5'3"x22" 83l kalama and my fs1000 foil in winds averaging 35 knots. I'm hoping my new board (6'3"x22" 83l) will allow me to use the same wing but drop down to my 850-700 with 2m most days.

Also, big thanks for throwing in your 2 cents about the 19" wide. I went with 20" wide on this custom since I overheard James Casey mention in his podcast that 20" wide boards are more fun to turn and surf than 18-19" wide boards. I assume this taps into the twitchiness you mentioned as well as my commentary about boards that you can push, vs boards you have to chase when on foil. There's undoubtedly going to be a sweet spot that we all settle into and depending on what type of foiling we all prefer I can imagine that going too short and narrow might feel like too much, especially if we are unlocking tiny foils in the 550-700 range. I also am reminding myself that the narrower we go, the thicker the board gets, which alters balance points etc, etc. Can't wait to see how my new ride works out and will report on it when it comes in!

44

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Favorite places to score swell while winging?

« on: September 28, 2023, 03:18:45 PM »

Rooster? Not sure I've ever seen swell there. Is it upwind to the east or something? Usually pretty flat to me, even when it's 40 knots.

No, you're right, after I wrote it I thought it didn't belong, though Rooster Rock on an east wind day when the whole river is blown flat as a board but the spindrift is waist high is just magical. As long as you're really good at going upwind (my single claim to fame). Otherwise, it's a long walk back to your rig.

I totally ate my words at rooster the other day. Nice rolling swell with 25-30 knots of east wind. Went again in west winds and it was dead flat. I'm guessing when it nukes those 40 knot days it kills the swell.

45

Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP / Re: Narrow vs Wide Boards: Beginners to Advanced

« on: September 28, 2023, 03:16:44 PM »

Oh right …. Checking in at 175
I suppose in the dead of winter I might find a deal….

Yep, the hover 125 should be a breeze to learn on. I've seen small riders learn on the 105 for sure, so that's not off the table and you could have fun for a long time on the 105.