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Messages - photofr

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SUP General / Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
« on: April 13, 2019, 05:11:32 AM »
While we are all different, and while I recommend and even encourage people to turn to modern nutrition and proper hydration, I have to admit that I have been using a technique that has proven very beneficial to me.

In the 90's:
I used to fonction on about 1 liter of water for every hour of intense exercise.
Since I enjoyed long distance the most, that meant an average of 3 hours of paddling, and often 4 to 5 hours.
That much time on the water meant: 4 to 6 litres of water that I have to take onboard.
It was insane!!!

In the early 2000's:
I found a different way: fast & light was my new motto.
On extreme events, I would saturate myself with water (the night before).
3.5 hours of paddling now meant only 1/2 a liter of water to carry with me.
That meant only about 500 grams of extra weight.
The result: it REALLY worked to my advantage.

I didn't do it overnight.
I was foolish enough to do it on my own - but I recommend you get monitored before changing anything.
Do not make a drastic change OVERNIGHT (make small steps).

Today, I can paddle the same way (at about 85-90% effort) and still use less than 1/2 a liter of water for 2, 3, or even 4 hours.

Food intake (and the right food) is key - if you are going to dehydrate yourself so much.

Oscar C. uses a similar method - but I am not sure how he does it being twice my weight (and height). You'd have to ask his secret, but from time to time, he goes 3.5 hours on 200cl of water - just before winning a race.

The reviewer has almost 20kg more body weight than me, yet he's finding exactly the same thing I am finding:
- The board is voluminous.
- That volume is a welcome addition for open water.

I'd still prefer a whole lot less volume though... no doubt about it for my featherweight.

ukgm - that might work for you since you will be talking to highly skilled riders. But most people aren’t. The information you get from less experienced paddlers is highly variable in quality.

I reckon you could get a custom that would be much better for you than anything you’ve tried so far, for you. But since you aren’t willing to take the financial risk that would involve, we’ll never know.
I reckon you could handle a narrower board with your self-professed balance excellence but since you aren’t willing to take the financial risk or put the hours in, we’ll never know that either  ;D
Au contraire, Pansy Potter, I did put my money where my mouth is, and I did find my limit. It was a humiliating and expensive experience. Like you, I decided at that point there there was no point competing any more. But then I didn’t get much out of racing anyway - I enjoyed the training but the races were usually a rather hollow and dispiriting experience, far away from the joy of paddling. So now, unlike you, I just do the training. But it has to be on boards so wide that they would mark me out as a sad old man (which I am) at all but the smallest local races, where I’d be getting my butt comprehensively kicked by the best 14 year-olds.

But today I spent 2 hours surfing my raceboard in rippy conditions, and didn’t fall in or wipeout at all in that session, which covered nearly 8 miles. And that’s how I like it. Stable enough to rarely fall. In 15 or so years when you are my age and you can’t even stand on the boards the teenagers are paddling, you’ll probably feel similarly. No need to make it any harder than it has to be. After 12 years of SUPing 4x week on average, and at my age, my balance skills aren’t going to miraculously improve not matter how much I struggle with a super-narrow board: I have reached a plateau determined by age and the hard demands of life.

Personally, you should have done my event this weekend and kicked some wrinkly arse in your age group. We'll never know the result of that either. Nobody uses a narrow board past 50  ;D

Good one UKGM -
You do realise though, that I am 51 ?!?!

I have been at fault too - I have made MANY claims about stability of boards and surfskis.

It’s actually quite bizarre when you think about it, because I recall perfectly describing the stability of surfskis and SUP like this:
-   The Allstar 14x25 is an extremely stable platform.
-   The Nelo 560 is a very stable Elite surfski.
-   The Epic V10L will provide an amazing amount of stability.
There are no lies, and no trickery there. I will vouch a 1000 times over for the above statements, but these statements CANNOT BE TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT.

The first line “The Allstar 14x25 is an extremely stable platform” should also be considered RELATIVE. It’s automatically assumed that anything under 34” is going to feel somewhat unstable for new-comers to the sport, especially if they are non-athletic, and / or weigh a bunch.

The second line “The Nelo 560 is a very stable Elite surfski” describes an Elite ski. Enough said there – it’s not an entry-level ski, and clearly meant as a statement for Elite paddlers that will find the 560 to be quite stable (compare to a V14 for instance).

The third line “The Epic V10L will provide an amazing amount of stability” also makes a reference to an Elite ski, but notice I didn’t include the words ELITE SKI. I didn’t try to trick anyone, but in my defense, it just didn’t even occur to me that a non-elite paddler would be looking at a V10L. The only thing I can say there is that, in my reviews, I have taken the time to compare the V10L with something like a Nelo 550, Nelo 560M, Epic V10, and Epic V14.

-   Were those statements taken out of context?
-   Did the reviewer (me, or anyone else) actually compare a surfski or a SUP board with similar crafts?
-   Did the reader READ the entire review?

Aren’t we all at fault here – because after all, someone did (very recently) have the “audacity” to claim that a 28” board would be stable?

At the end of the day, I believe that a 27” board will feel instable to my mother (even though she is a total featherweight). I even believe strongly that a 28” board will feel terribly wobbly to a non-athletic 135 kilos male – especially if said individual isn’t too comfortable near a body a water.

Having said all of this, I still agree and believe that the SUP industry as a whole isn’t as honest as I’d like them to be. In fact, the only thing we can hope for in the future is for reviewers to back up every single one of their claims:

** A way stable board should be compared with other boards, and so should a way fast board, a well built board, a light board, unstable board, etc…**

I remember communicating on behalf of Cannondale (way back when). I would have been fired for sharing:
a) a lie
b) anything that wasn't 100% truthful

The goal was to share new development, and some of the advantages of Cannondale bikes. Back then though, people would "read between the lines" and ask questions. If I said: The Synapse is a very comfortable bike, people would ask me HOW did they make it comfortable, and others would ask me HOW this "comfortable" bike would do in sprints.

In the end, the younger guy looking for a comfy road bike would take a look at the Synapse, and the young sprinter would look at something else. Point being, people asked questions. We should ask more, and perhaps read more.

I agree that a lot of the information shared across the board, on FaceBook, or even on YouTube can sometimes be questionable.
- May I recommend that we START holding everyone accountable for providing false info?

However, aren't we sometimes to blame as well?

For instance, when someone says a board is very stable, don't just take it for granted. Ask them what they are comparing it to.

I have seen the same exact problems with Surfski paddling - and I am so glad that we came up with primary stability vs. secondary stability - in order to clarify a few things. It's gotten way better, with people actually telling you how a ski will feel compared to 3 or more surfskis.

I am still seeing (across the board) people downright lying about board or ski weight though. Are they removing fins / rudders / lines / pedals / handles / pads - BEFORE weighing????

In my opinion, we probably have 4 main categories:
- Untrusted people (people who aren't honest at all)
- Marketing bull (unfounded findings, or pulling stuff out of their A###)
- Accountable people (people who do their best to share their findings)
- US (us paddlers wanting to believe that a new 14x21.5 board is going to be as stable as an Allstar 14x25)

It's a no-brainer: more people will make the move.

I don't think so. The market, drivers and buzz are completely different between the two in my view. I just think paddlers will have a short shelf life in SUP whereas surfskiers are more like kayakers i.e. long term lifers not driven by fashion or fad. Surf skiing has been helped massively by boats like the Epic V8 (making it manageable) but since SUP's biggest market is inland based (with the coastal market being quite small), you'll more likely see ex-SUP paddlers try something completely different.

I agree with most of the above - and YES, the V8 was a splendid move from Epic that helped EVERYONE. The Nelo 520 followed years after, and between the V8 and 520, there were 1/2 a dozen "beginner skis" that were super appealing to get people into the sport.

I agree with your view on the two sports too, but with one more factor that IS INVOLVED:
Imagine a person who doesn't paddle...
That same person who goes and gets into SUP with a 11x30...
That same person who eventually progresses to a 14x25...
That same person who races...
And then that same person who gets a little tired of SUP Racing...

Well, I have seen it myself:
Individuals who have followed the above path (almost to the letter), and then have found themselves getting into (and purchasing) either an OC1 or a Surfski (and even sometimes both to end up with only a surfski at the end).

Get people involved into SUP - it's good for everyone (including the Surfski World).
Get people involved into Surfski - it's also good for everyone (including the SUP World).

Heck, getting more people involved into water sports could benefit many different markets - eventually. Getting more people playing video games "may not".

Weight is a much bigger issue for you, photofr, because you weigh so little, so a boards’ weight is a bigger percentage of your body weight. Plus, I have SUPs that are more than 10 years old and are pretty much the same as they were 10 years ago: how long do you need a board to last???

Honestly, when I spend 2000 or more euros, I'd like my "toys" to last a bit...
Here's my short list of boards I have been extremely unhappy with as far as lasting - they ALL had massive pressure dings after just a handful of sessions in the Ocean.
- JL 14x27
- JL 14x25
- SB Sprint 12x24
- SB Sprint 17'6x23
- SB Ace 14x25
- SB Allstar 14x25
- SB Racer 14x25

Aside from pressure dings, most of the above boards aged poorly, and looked a bit run-down before the first season was over.

So, to answer your original question: How long do I want them to last?
3 to 5 years would be nice - without too much compromise on weight (since as we both know that would impact feather-weights like me).

Note: I usually "baby" my equipment (I can put 1000's of kilometres on a board or paddle and not even put a scratch on it - as long as I don't race) :)

At one point or another, paddlers will start looking for alternatives, because it's getting a little expensive.

iSUP - about 1200 euros (doesn't last).
SUP - 14x what ever without weighing a ton - about 3500 euros (doesn't last).
hSUP (as in Hollow SUP) - 14x what ever - about 3800 euros (long lasting, proven construction).
SURFSKI - with a rudder and a 11 kilos hollow construction - starting and still at about 2500 euros (long lasting, proven construction

It's a no-brainer: more people will make the move.

SUP General / Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
« on: March 26, 2019, 07:51:01 AM »
While I don't think that SUP Racing is growing, I do think that SUP involvement is still growing. Thus, the sport could be said to still be growing.

Still, I wish that people would learn how to climb back on their boards... because what I am seeing in real life is nothing short of "scary". At least, on a surfski, if you can't get back on, you don't even leave the shoreline. You are usually thought to learn to remount, and practice a bunch. Then we are thought to learn to brace. And... eventually, we learn to paddle better, while still practicing remounts. Yes, the learning curb is steeper on a ski, a lot steeper actually, but there are pros and cons to both there.

I find SUP helps me with my surfski, and to my great surprise, surfski REALLY enhances my SUP performance. So, take it for what it's worth - but I see the same thing with Boothy et al. where they come from surfski / kayak before arriving to the SUP world.

photofr, I like the look of that board and I wanna test it and see how it feel and compare to others  8)

Easy, buy it from Ludovic and have it shipped to Australia. Then you can compare speed on open water with your custom JL Sidewinder II. And post detailed review here :-)

Surely, JEG can find a board that doesn't require a 20 hours plane ride. He does have the right attitude: giving it a try, and seeing for himself.

As for my board, there are 4 people claiming to be interested - but seemingly, Europeans take longer to hit the trigger than folks back home.

If I recall correctly, the Nelo boards originally came out at 3450 euros.
After about 6 months, that price went up to 3600 euros.
Looking at the Lightcorp website again, I am now seeing 3695 euros, each.
It sort of makes sense, for as long as a Starboard will be 3500 euros / without a "lasting construction".

SUP General / Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
« on: March 26, 2019, 04:32:24 AM »
For many years, athletes got into surfskis when they reached 39-45 years of age. Not much has changed there, except that I am also seeing a healthy dose of younger paddlers getting into the sport as well.

That's just bonus -

Here's something I found, that you may (or may not) find useful - from Lightcorp's website:
"Raceboards should be used only by trained persons or under supervision"

So, before you consider purchasing a very fast board, or simply get an extra extra light board, or simply looking for a nice hollow board, a new one or even mine...
1. Make sure you are trained, OR...
2. Make sure you paddle your new toy under supervision.

Hope this helps.  :o

SUP General / Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
« on: March 25, 2019, 04:56:00 AM »
Here in France, I am seeing a crazy number of racer dropouts as well.

On the other hand, and super excited to see this: there is a staggering number of people getting into Surfskis.

Interesting.  How about OC1s?

YES - OC1 is seemingly increasing in France as well.
I saw this trends a few years back: the more people got into SUP, the more people eventually turned to other more efficient "tools" like surfskis and Outriggers. Those numbers are tiny though, but they do add up.

Mr. Proper...
Too bad about the Brexit... It looks like I could have gotten used boards a little cheaper in your region, by merely travelling a bit (and checking out your neck-of-woods).

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