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Messages - juandesooka

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The Shape Shack / Re: XPS Board Building Advantages vs EPS Foam
« on: October 20, 2023, 12:57:18 PM »
anyone experimented or heard anything boarding shaping using graphite polystyrene (GPS) foam?

Is it more like EPS or XPS? Appears to  have more moisture retention, which is bad (when board inevitably gets dinged) and maybe slightly good (perhaps improves on the resin absorption / delam issues with xps).

Apparently this is the most common rigid insulation in Europe. I am curious if this may be related to Appletree's proprietary closed cell foam.

This all flows from my looking for 4" thick sheets of xps, unsuccessfully so far -- shows they make them, but out of stock.  A friend in the green home biz recommended checking out gps.

The Shape Shack / Re: XPS Board Building Advantages vs EPS Foam
« on: August 09, 2023, 04:03:19 PM »
I think XPS delams BECAUSE it's waterproof. EPS boards equalize the pressure of water vapor throughout the board. Water vapor in an XPS board has nowhere to go.  That's why vents work on EPS boards. They don't work on XPS boards because the air can't move around inside the board. I've vacuum-bagged XPS a lot, and while a full vacuum will crush and deform the XPS a little, it's nothing like EPS which crushes down to a wad of plastic. I've never had problems laminating onto XPS as long as the surface is prepped (coarsely sanded).

Do you have strategies for managing this ventilation, to allow vapour to escape?

[and because no like or thanks button on this forum s/w,  thank you Stella Blue for reply too]

The Shape Shack / Re: XPS Board Building Advantages vs EPS Foam
« on: August 09, 2023, 08:44:59 AM »
Appletree has been making waterproof boards for a number of years, have yet to hear of any reports of delam.


Maybe I have just been lucky so far, and it is going to fail any day now.  My xps sup foil board is older with fewer sessions and it looks good as the day I finished it.  We will see over the next year how she looks.

Thanks Clay. Are these DIYs?  Or Appletree?  If DIY, what system did you use for lay up?

If Appletree, the worry remains that they have figured out some secret sauce to make this work. Maybe some variation on xps that is less resistant to resin, or some clever trick to make it stick.  As they appear to be the industry leader in this, the only company mass producing these boards. Other than a few experiment posts here and there, like this thread, seems like builders give it a go, then give up.  So before I start, I am seeking some more info on home build success....did they all fail after a few months of use and it was easier to go back to tried and true eps (with its flaws), or maybe they are so successful that no more boards need to be made, board-for-life?  :-)

The Shape Shack / Re: XPS Board Building Advantages vs EPS Foam
« on: August 08, 2023, 10:43:29 AM »
Toying with idea of an experimental XPS build.  Sounds like the question isn't if they will delam but when.   

For those who went there ... how did it work out after some use?  Not out of the bag looking sexy as heck, but after 6 months or a year of dozens of sessions in varied conditions. Hold up decent? Or steadily failed towards a disappointing end?

Foil SUP / Re: Next Foil Setup Help- SUP/Wing (Gofoil)
« on: March 10, 2023, 07:45:57 PM »
You didn't mention stabs.  I have gone from cynical about those to a believer, they can really make a big difference on the ride.

If you were primarily wing, I might say stick with PNL, unless you have days with strong wind or bigger waves. I love that wing. But if you find you are over-foiling (regularly breaching) or that you are having to hold back (survival stance to avoid breaching), then consider stepping down into RS line.  My RS 1150 was go to for the next level. And then RS 1000 for the level past that. Now there are about 17 other variations in size that may be worth considering. :-)

My rule was always that wing > sup foil > surf foil, in sizing of front foil.  So maybe RS 1150 will be your go to.  I don't know much about GT1400...but kinda seems a step sideways for your setup vs a step up.

Foil SUP / Re: Foil Math Wave Size = 2X + 1 and Big Waves
« on: February 03, 2023, 08:40:49 PM »
Last one: "Lord of the Dance"  ;D

Foil SUP / Re: Foil Math Wave Size = 2X + 1 and Big Waves
« on: February 01, 2023, 04:17:57 PM »
Rad.  The foil math may also involve adding some exponent for injury potential.  With more size comes remarkably more speed, and the wipeouts start to hurt, even just hitting the water, but worse if the board or foil is involved.  Whiplash and concussions from the bucket effect, ribs, charley horses, joints...damn it sucks to be in your 50s.  My last bigger day out, I think I peered over the edge for as far as I want to go, the point where the fear of injury overtakes the rush.  Which is another way of saying when I got scared.  ::)

I agree a smaller board and foil would make it more fun! But also agree it comes with cost, especially if you haven't practiced the gear. That's the training element for big wave have to actually use that gear when it's not huge, so you aren't learning the gear in a critical situation.  That's particularly a problem for people who don't tow much, as the water start can be a challenge on a small board without maybe better you go with what you know. 

Finally, I am mind surfing these waves on my efoil.  That's been blowing my mind lately, getting into larger stuff super early, "letting go of the rope" (turning off power) and gliding for SO long, then kicking out way before it's even breaking.  It's allowing for chasing waves that are otherwise impossible without a tow team.  It would be nice to do so without an 80lb craft, but work with what you have.  My last session I experimented with a small front wing but a comparatively larger stab, to get faster speeds but with added stabilty/control...seemed to work pretty good.

Foil SUP / Re: To those who have paid their dues on foil in the surf:
« on: January 01, 2023, 09:21:17 PM »
I'm 65 years old and weigh 165. I've been SUP surfing for almost ten years on boards as small as 7'6. I tried SUP foiling my 5'10 x 29" 110L Naish Hover for the first time a couple of weeks ago and it was a lot of work just trying to stand and paddle in a straight line. Catching waves seemed impossible. I could probably do it on a longer board but not on a 5'10. I think I'll stick to wing foiling. It's way easier.

Stick with it, like everything there's a bit of learning curve, but if you can sup surf a 7.6, you should get it fast.  Though a bigger board will help at start. For perspective, I began with a DIY install on my 9.3, then another diy on a 7.6 door, then 6' and 5'11". Experiments below that  I found the loss of paddling ability and stability due not justify the performance gains.  I wing a 5.3 95L and can almost just barely sup foil it. 

as above...I expect you will get a "holy s**t" reaction when you put on the 14...will feel like you added a 5th gear and race tires.   FTS even moreso.

And vice versa, using the 20 with the 1150 is also kinda wow, but different reasons: lift, stability, pumpability....feels pretty cool. (this is a new one for me, just got my 20 a few sessions ago...using it for lighter wind, more lift needed situations)

I replaced my 6m bladder. Done dozens of kite bladder replacements, but this was a lot tougher ... no zipper access hole to allow fine tuning.

I tried many variations, but had trouble with the bladder being twisted and also the valve velcro not seated right (which can cause the velcro to unseat and the bladder to twist in the tube, once under pressure).  Talking to OR folks, got a few tips. But I did it so many times in a row I am having trouble remembering which way eventually will edit if I recall differently. After trying 10 times, it was "super easy once you know how".   :)

PS after all that, just found this OR video, DOH
Maybe just follow that  ;D

-- generous application of talc or baby powder and a dry bladder helps it move in the tube
-- lay it out flat, draw a jiffy line on the inflate valve and the LE hole, so you know it is lined up properly
-- tape a piece of cardboard to bladder tip, to help ensure it doesn't twist as you pull
-- fold bladder from centre to end, pile the folds on top in 2' increments, taking care that it is flat and not twisted, so it'll pull through clean [this video, 2:20..."accordion fold" ... or see the OR video above for alternative method]
-- pull bladder through inflate hole, towards the LE tips.
-- pull velcro ring through hole...tight fit. 
-- seat the velcro, lining up your jiffy lines.
-- use something thin but not sharp to seat the valve edge over LE lip.
-- fold bladder ends, then fold the LE inside material, seat the velcro
-- half inflate, look for twists (deep depression in LE), if twisted try to pull it out through LE end just enough to fix the twist OR if not, start again for that side. 
-- half inflate, try to massage out kinks or folds in materials.  I found it helped to open up LE tip, then pull the LE tip (with velcro seated), it pulls out most of the kinks. I think I did this with bladder 10% inflated...but can't remember for sure
-- inflate 3/4, check again for kinks or folds.
-- inflate to 100%, but just before, say a little prayer to whatever gods or powers-that-be you believe in, for hopes and good fortune

Thanks for the report. I think that makes sense, as the benefit of lightness most noticably affects light wind performance.  Especially if you are needing to pump and slog to get going or in between gusts. Having a wing half as heavy would be a big advantage. Also a smaller leading edge tube just means less to get in the way.  In contrast, for smaller wings in higher wind, weight is less of a factor.

I generally find light wind flat water to be kinda marginal, fun for a bit but the extra work may not justify the effort.  However, if there's surf combined with that, very different story.  This sounds like a perfect wave weapon for those 10-12kt days.  Above all what I need in that situation is a power switch that works: you have to have solid wind power to get into the waves with speed and more importantly to get out of their way when needed.

I am happy with my 6m a-series, but this 7m sounds one notch better, will be worth a look

x2, been using it with wider strap set up for past year, no issues.
Also had a chance to try the carbon handles last week again, first thought was I don't like them due to potential grip fatigue.  But wow, the extra control is really nice, with positive connection.  I am working on tacks and I can see how that would help a lot, in controlling the wing through the upwind turn.  I only used a first gen boom wing once, had the same feeling, I liked the control aspects (though other cons to balance the pros).

Ha ha, looks like I'm not the only one convinced by Kalama's thought processes. This is my new SUP in progress too. No tail rocker and kalama tail for a SUP that needs boardspeed to get on foil. The tradeoff is a nosedown attitude in flight. I still think a wingboard needs some tail rocker for better flight characteristics but If the SUP proves to be what people are saying I will try a rockered kalama tail on my next wing board.

I do not understand this.
Why would zero rocker at the foilbox give a nose down attitude in flight?.
Most modern  foils are designed to fly level on flat boxes, and if this is not the case you can always shim the mast plate.

On a short board (under 6') with minimal nose rocker, adding some tail rocker it will make it feel "nose up" when it rides. 
Alternatively, no tail rocker, the flat red line on the kalama board above, will not give this "nose up" feel -- and in some situations that can feel "nose down", like dropping into a steep wave it feels like your board is beyond neutral and actually pointing into the wave -- versus the nose up feeling of a surfboard or a snowboard in powder. 
The added blue lines illustrate how the tail rocker makes the board in front angle up, the nose rides is an inch or two higher than it be if no tail rocker. 
And yes, you can achieve the same thing with mast shims, either adding more rocker effect or removing it entirely.  (unless you have a tuttle mount)
Early sup conversions we found the boards had way too much tail rocker, which caused the foil to be pointing downward when paddling, really bad for paddling power and glide getting into waves.
The tail rocker thing is more pronounced on prone surf foils and shorter wing boards -- eg the sky 5' had a lot of tail rocker. So does the new FG Armstrong boards.

SUP foil downwinding...I haven't tried that either, but when legends of the sport say it's the hardest thing they've done...yikes. So yes, that's one of the main uses for foil drive e-assist. A friend is getting regular 20km rides and only using less than half battery power. 

Foil drive also useful for waves that aren't really breaking well...but I've only had 2 sessions like that since I got mine.  I've used it for flat water pump practice too, quite hard. 

But I have now also tried a full efoil, and similar to your ebike experience, it is way more fun than I expected. Like winging without the get that speed glide powder snowboard feeling

Nice board. Is the hole for water drainage, wire routing or both?
drainage. The wire cannot be disconnected. It would be perfect if it had a waterproof plug for the battery box. But i think there might be an issue with the amount of current needed for a waterproof plug, but dont quote me on that.
I have half-heartedly looked into removable connections and people in DIY community have discussed options.  There are various 3-pin connectors that seem like they'd work, either connecting the motor and esc along the wire somewhere convenient, or installing a waterproof boat-deck mount in the box.  However, these options wouldn't work well for you, as you'd have to make the through hull hole quite big to accommodate the plug.  Or maybe getting crazy with it: the hole through the board has a has a deck mount on board bottom that the motor wire plugs into, then on board top another deck mount that the box wire connects to.  That's two connections to manage but nicely sleek compared to a wire over the tail.

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