Standup Zone Forum

Stand Up Paddle => Gear Talk => Topic started by: Blane Chambers on February 24, 2008, 12:46:24 PM

Title: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Blane Chambers on February 24, 2008, 12:46:24 PM
A few years ago we started talking about wearing one in bigger surf while SUP surfing because the board tends to drag you farther under water than a normal board and when the bigger board hits you it usually will be an injury.       Since then I do wear one when I can remember to put it on...   Sometimes the waves are so good I'm out there and think about it later...    Sam Pae was the first guy I saw wearing one consistently.   First time I saw Sam wearing one was at a grinding left on the North Shore and he was riding a 12' board that would drag him far.     He enlightened me about his vest and eventually Kawika Foster got me to try one.      Both of these guys charge big waves so I figured, heck, no shame try it...   

This is just one persons opinion on these things...  There are mainly 2 types used by SUP surfers and tow in surfers.   Coast Guard approved ones and  "Impact" vests which are not CG approved but offer much more comfort but less floatation and protection.   I personally prefer the CG approved ones but also use an impact one also.

Safety Pros:     Well, its the absolute safest way to surf especially in heavy, deep water, powerful waves.   You get bonked on the head and pass out, at least you will eventually come up floating.    You get the board into the ribs, you have protection.    When surfing its rare just being held under is going to get you.   Its getting hit a certain way and you're now struggling to the surface injured that usually gets you.   

Safety Cons: You cannot dive very deep when needed but IMO you can dive more than deep enough.    It can be restrictive while surfing which may make you not perform at the highest levels to actually make a wave but I think this factor is very small and smaller with a impact vest.   If your leash gets hooked to the bottom it could be very hard with a vest to un-tangle yourself.     This could be very bad!    If you look hard enough, you could find many situations where the added buoyancy to your body could actually harm you.   Surface penetration is not one of the things to worry about because you do not penetrate without one if you're going fast anyway.    Overall, I think its very minimal that a vest would be less safe than no vest.

Comfort Pros:    The only real comfort I can see wearing any vest is in your mind.    As far as comfort goes there is nothing about it that is better than no vest at all unless you like the feeling like someone hugging you the whole time you're surfing.      Number one thing is wear one that fits right.   

Comfort Cons:   Everyone is different and little things like it digging into a certain part of your body will irritate each person differently.    For me, I don't like one that makes me feel like I can't breathe full deep breaths or is digging into my throat.      There can be plenty cons if you are wearing a vest that is not fit for you.   How would you know?   You have to try them on and better yet go surfing with them.    Unfortunately for me it took quite a few vests to find a couple I like.   

The puffy look of a PFD.    Honestly, to me it looks fat and dorky as heck but no ones opinion ever helps you when you're getting drilled under water.    This is the XCEL brand impact vest with a jersey over it.   
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/makahastuff/websize/Copy%20of%2014feb2008lemosimages%20277.jpg)

This is when a vest is most appealing.   When you get smashed.    Bad things happen quickly when there is a lot of water moving...   The moment of impact.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/makahastuff/websize/Copy%20of%20d.JPG)

Real Life Situations:    First off, if you think wearing a vest in bigger waves will make you exempt from getting your ass kicked, you will be rudely educated.   Vest or no vest, the beatings are the same.    The drillings and hold downs are the same.   Sure, a vest can help you surface but only after the wave will let you just like it does without one.    Using a vest should be looked at as a tool to make what you already do, SAFER.     All the relaxation methods to survive still apply.   In other words, YOU CAN DROWN wearing a vest!   If you do not know how to handle bigger ocean conditions, the vest will not all of a sudden make you smarter.   Worse yet, it could put you into a bad situation because of a false sense of security.

Here's what stands out about a vest that I really like.     After a wipeout and you're hanging onto your paddle, trying to get your board etc, you are buoyant enough to gather your things a little easier.    Swimming with your paddle is hard enough but throw in the boiling cauldron of the previous waves and its all about just trying to keep your head up which burns time and energy.    You can get your stuff together and work on making your situation better, much quicker.     When down deep and you have to swim up, it does help make head way to the surface.    You won't come exploding out of the water but the buoyancy is definetly helpful.   Just don't expect to rocket to the surface.

So that's just one persons view on PFD's.   Will you look like a dork?   Yes.   Are you a Wuss for wearing one?   To most and especially if you're wearing one in smaller waves, Yes.   Is it going to stop you from wearing one?   That's up to you.    I don't wear one in smaller waves unless I'm testing it.   Anything solid and I'm really going to make the effort to remember to put one on especially if I'm heading out to a remote area with sizeable waves.     I hear of guys wearing them in Hawaiian size 3-5' waves and that gives me a chuckle but hey, whatever.   Safety is never a bad thing even if you look like a total dork right! ;D

Aloha,
Blane


www.paddlesurfhawaii.com
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: DavidJohn on February 24, 2008, 02:29:50 PM
Thanks Blane..Great write up and advise...btw..that second pic is amazing.. :o

When Laird started using one (PFD's) they suddenly became cool.. ;D..and now with you wearing one they are even cooler.. :D

I thought you might get chafing around the under arm areas from paddling..Do you need to wear a rash top underneath?

DJ
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: StandUpPaddleSurf.net on February 24, 2008, 02:40:27 PM
I just started wearing an impact vest when I go into waves on the north shore.  http://www.standuppaddlesurf.net/2008/02/16/does-a-wake-vest-make-me-a-wus/#comment-7559  I know that 'big' is relative to the individual however 4 to 5 ft Hawaiian scale and up is big to me, especially on the north shore.  I can't imaging going on the waves like the Ku Ikaika ones. 

I used to wear a CG approved vest when I would kiteboard because if something goes wrong, the swim in to shore with your equipment can be really long and tiring.  I was also used to one because they are required on kayaks which I used to ride. 

I use a competition wake vest now because it provides some float but doesn't get in the way as much as my CG approved vest.  This is really noticeable in the armpit area where the CG vest seems to scrape my underarm a lot and the impact one doesn't.  I also wear a rash guard under it to avoid scraping.  That's just a comfort issue although to me I don't notice the vest after a few minutes because it's not that thick.  I think if the size of the waves required me to use the CG approved vest then I'm not going.

It makes me look bigger but I'm much more interested in being safe than looking cool.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: PonoBill on February 24, 2008, 02:58:48 PM
Way rather be live, dorky, and having fun than be dead, cool and not. Don't have one yet (I have a big impact vest for Windsurfing, but I wouldn't wear that surfing) but I'm gonna get one. It seems the only sports I like are the ones that require safety gear.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Dwight (DW) on February 24, 2008, 03:01:03 PM
Thanks for making it cool Blane.

I've been using one on big days kitesurfing for the last few years. Wore it a few times SUPing last Fall.

I've gone so far as to modify mine for ultimate function and comfort kitesurfing.

I sent the design to the brand I ride for, but they were not wise enough to appreciate it.

The hanging loop pulls up and over the hook, pulling the jacket down in the front. In the back the jacket is cut away so as not to bunch up under the harness.

One final point, I don't like thick bulky jackets because the impact with the water becomes hard like concrete. Back when kitesurfing had just been invented and we used foils that sank, a life jacket with full floatation sounded like a good idea. That was until I received a head concussion and sprained neck from the whiplash of hitting the water with a thick jacket on.

(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/DSC_0018Medium.jpg)
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff242/fishersfort/DSC_0022Medium.jpg)

Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: StandUpPaddleSurf.net on February 24, 2008, 03:08:58 PM
DW - That looks pretty thin.  Does it float you at all or just for impact protection?
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Dwight (DW) on February 24, 2008, 03:18:26 PM
DW - That looks pretty thin.  Does it float you at all or just for impact protection?

It makes me neutral buoyant. This allows me to relax and save my strength for survival. As you know, the key is to stay calm, relaxed, and maintain reserve strength.

I hope it floats me enough to allow someone to see my body and have some chance of resuscitation.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: surfpainter on February 24, 2008, 04:14:00 PM
Do suspenders come with that PFD?
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: tautologies on February 24, 2008, 05:25:34 PM


I DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND WHY THIS IS A DISCUSSION. (oops caps lock)  :-)

Reallt, safety above all. THis is the same discussion in kiteboarding. Some guys are afraid of looking dorky. WHo care what you look like as long as you have fun, in a reasonable safe manner. I am surprised at how many who goes miles off shore in kiteboarding, not being in shape to swim in...without any flotation devide (except the kite), which is easy to loose if you are in waves.

I think SUP suffers a little from the same issues as kiteboarding. It is easy to get out fast and way off shore...but really what happens WHEN (not if) your leash snaps a mile from shore? It doesn't even have to be a mile...in waves it is suddenly way way harder to get back to shore.

In kiteboarding there are a lot of guys that never surfs a regular boards, they don't know how hard it can be to get through and back in if anything happens. I think SUP as sport suffers a little form the same issues. People who actually don't know too much about surfing might paddle out in seemingly harmless conditions, and suddenly a mix of off shore winds and rising surf catches them by surprise. Once you are in trouble, situations magnify and becomes critical very fast. (this is why I always recommend people to get comfortable with regular surfing longboardeing before trying SUP).

Anyhoo, yes I would not hesitate using on of my impact vests (Naish, O'Neil or Dakine) in waves. Of these three, I think the Naish one is the one that provides the most flexibility / movability and floatation at the same time...the dakine one is more floatation, but also more restricting..it is a tow in vest (no I don't tow in), the O'neill is more of a rib protector, but doesn't have as much floatation.

Anyhoo...
 A.



Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Dwight (DW) on February 24, 2008, 05:55:00 PM


I DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND WHY THIS IS A DISCUSSION. (oops caps lock)  :-)



We've got all types out there. I've been a pioneer in extreme sports my whole life. Going back to when hang gliding was invented. I've seen people paralyzed, had friends die. I didn't get to be an old guy without understanding the risks and being smart about it. Trust your instincts.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Tony DaKine on February 24, 2008, 07:41:19 PM
DW - I was checking that exact impact vest online a few days ago. It looks pretty comfortable. I'm not sure I understand  your describe the flotation. If you didn't kick and held your hands above your head in the water, would you float or sink?

I don't charge super big waves but I've taken a board to the ribs a couple times and would wear a vest on bigger days. I'm looking for a little flotation, not necessarily USCG standards though.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: steamroller on February 24, 2008, 08:23:16 PM
HEY you been holding out on us pictures wise?!?!?!!....i KNOW you get MORE pics of that makaha day....no hide ....share um...we like see...

in fact i think you should start a "PSH pic thread"  ;D
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Blane Chambers on February 24, 2008, 09:57:28 PM
HEY you been holding out on us pictures wise?!?!?!!....i KNOW you get MORE pics of that makaha day....no hide ....share um...we like see...

in fact i think you should start a "PSH pic thread"  ;D


Ha ha!   I have HUNDREDS OF KILLER PICS!!!!!!    Pipeline, Makaha, Sunset, Secret Spots etc, etc...    Just sick stuff of plenty good surfers ripping.    Takes time to upload though...   When I have time...   Here's a few teasers for you...

Tony DaKine lays it over at a secret spot...
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/austinetc/websize/6.jpg)

TD getting ready for another fun one...
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/austinetc/websize/20.jpg)

Mel Puu blasting...
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/makahastuff/websize/mel-puu.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/privatedonotcopy/websize/ekolupipe.jpg)

Pipe look back...
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/privatedonotcopy/websize/img_2649.jpg)

Kekoa Uemura stroking in...
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/northshore0708/websize/koa13.JPG)

Tony DaKine ends a killer session...
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/austinetc/websize/2.jpg)

OK, that's enough...   Stick to the subject at hand...   PFD's! ;D

Aloha,
Blane



www.paddlesurfhawaii.com
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Honolii on February 25, 2008, 12:29:33 AM
I know I'm getting off the subject but I had to comment on that picture of Blane on the Makaha Bowl. I can't stop looking at it only because I cannot even fathom that wave! Unreal. Lots of power and looks like a galcier coming down on you. Props to you brah!
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: shapeshifter on February 25, 2008, 03:00:10 AM
i've gotten into the habit of wearing a manually inflatable pfd by mustang survival (http://www.mustangsurvival.com/products/product.php?id=455) it is pretty compact until deployed and comfortable. they also have hydrostatic versions that automatically deploy when submerged but for obvious reasons this wouldn't be the preferred choice for surfing.

it's good to see others with the same ideas.

(http://www.mustangsurvival.com/products/images/thumbs/MD3081large184.jpg)
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Dwight (DW) on February 25, 2008, 03:28:31 AM
DW - I was checking that exact impact vest online a few days ago. It looks pretty comfortable. I'm not sure I understand  your describe the flotation. If you didn't kick and held your hands above your head in the water, would you float or sink?

I don't charge super big waves but I've taken a board to the ribs a couple times and would wear a vest on bigger days. I'm looking for a little flotation, not necessarily USCG standards though.

Unfortunately I don't know the answer to that. Never thought to try it.

The floatation equals a full wetsuit. I wear it most often on big days, before wetsuit season kicks in.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: motopilot on February 25, 2008, 05:57:49 AM
I think in some cases (bigger surf) it is a great idea.  For others whenever you are ot of your comfort level.  An example happend this fall on Maui.  Our group was sailing camp one / uppers area when I sailed out and found a guy trying to swim out by the second reef.  He lost his gear and can swim but not with winds, surf etc.  He was freaking out the entire way back into shore.  When the group heard about what had happened a couple of them bought v the mustang survival vests the next day.  There is nothing wrong with being safe!
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: 1tuberider on February 25, 2008, 09:48:58 AM
I think wearing a pfd is a great idea. 

Our paddle boards takes us places we never went on surfboards.  We can be a lot further from land and if something should happen a pfd could make the difference between finding a cold body or someone alive.

I have broken ribs twice while windsurfing.  A pfd would have protected me from the impact damage.  I have an impact vest now and I should consistently wear it.   

Boaters have the same issues.  Wearing the vest is critical when an accident occurs.  There is usually not enough time to put the jacket on when distressed.  The inflatable vests are good, but I believe they inflate when wet, so we would need a different way to activate it.  Not to easy to pull a cord when we are knocked out. 

I even see some wearing helmets.  Personal protection is a great way to see another day.

 
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: shapeshifter on February 25, 2008, 10:59:46 AM
there are two types of inflatables... the "manual" inflatables which deploy when you pull the cord on the co2 cartridge and the hydrostatic ones which automagically inflates when submerged. the cons of the manual inflatables is that they won't do you any good if you are unconscious the problem with the hydrostatic types are that they inflate if you hit the water. being that i am using an uli i shouldn't be as prone to head trauma unless the paddle winds up between my head and the board.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: surfpainter on February 25, 2008, 05:19:05 PM
Hey BC...how in the world did you keep your trunks on during that wipeout? is that why you came up laughing?...I know the feeling....Rick
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: stoneaxe on February 25, 2008, 05:57:05 PM
"Big waves" is a relative thing. I'm looking at getting a vest similar to the billabong http://buywake.com/catalog/detail/4Q39x (http://buywake.com/catalog/detail/4Q39x) that Evan showed me at the board showcase last week. Anybody know of one made  in a XXL? Brother Bill gave me an inflatable which I used frequently when I 1st started hitting the waves. My biggest concern though is getting whacked on the head from a boulder during a fall not the pounding a big wave can bring or the hold down. An inflatable doesn't help much when you're unconscious.

My last session on Maui was small waves...went off the board backwards and felt a coral head just lightly graze the top of my head...didn't even leave a scratch....10 inches further back though probably would have been lights out. I've always been a strong swimmer but the unexpected can kill you just as quickly.

A related story....10 years ago a cooworker went for a quiet little bike ride with his wife and kids. The kids had helmets on but he didn't. He hit a sewer grate and his front tire stuck...threw him over the handlebars...fractured his skull on the curb and he died two days later. A cheap little helmet and he would have been hurting but alive.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Kaweeka on February 26, 2008, 06:05:36 PM
All I can say is amen!  I still find myself amazed at what you can do on a SUP and one is you can ride a really small wave into really shallow water  . . . Before your fall off!  I'm sure the novelty will wear off soon but it will still be a great thing to do on that last wave of the day . . .

Everyone can decide for themselves but after the bruising I got a few days ago and the reefs I've been shooting through I think the helmet will go back on and at least a thin impact vest will be added to the attire.  When I gain more skill and learn to kick out sooner this will change  ;D  Then again I will never be cool so what me worry  ???
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests)
Post by: Northern Supper on March 03, 2008, 09:56:04 AM
All,

I would like to Ditto what Blane has been saying in this thread. I am in Northern California and we get some pretty raw swell and some pretty crazy conditions.  I have paddling in at some spots where there would be only me and tow-in guys out. Swells >25ft at 20 secs. So I figured, if they've got'em I am going to get one.

The vest has made a big difference. I have taken horrific beatings :o. I got barrel rolled on the underside of the lip at mavs. I was upside down under the lip. It was like falling down an elevator shaft and landing on my back. I was right in the bowl. I lost everything. But I gotta tell you I came to the surface like rocketman. And was able to swim to the shoulder to escape the next one.

I am pretty sure that if I did not have a vest I'd have made a trip through the rocks or worse. But don't be lured into a false sense of security. To me the vest situtation is like english beer vs german beer. You can have it smooth up front and a harsh after taste or you can have it harsh up front and a smooth after taste but you can't have both.

With the vest you are going to take the beating up front. You are going to get beat worse than you have been beat before but the aftermath is going to be much more pleasant. The reason is that you cannot penetrate the face. I have tired to dive under waves with little success. So be prepared to take some pretty big waves on the head in all of their glory. But 90% of the time the aftermath won't be as bad. Unless of course you are near rocks. And then you should expect to get thrown on them and have all your toys broken because with the vest you are "bouy boy".

Another plus is that they keep you warm and you can swim forever. I lost a board in december and the offshores were blowing it out to sea. I swam for 2 1/2 hours into open ocean to chase it down.

I am a believer that above a certain size it just doesn't matter, all of your stuff is going to break and you will get injured. Especially if you hit reef, rocks or get bounced off the bottom. The bottom line. In conditions over 10ft at 15 secs or 6 ft at 25 secs. Don't take off on the 1st wave of the set. Choose waves that you can make. Stand on the shoulder and swoop into the bowl. But most of all don't fall.

Haley


Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Blane Chambers on June 18, 2008, 08:24:29 PM
*UPDATE*      The last 4 surfs in waves ranging from  6-10' faces I been testing out a different size (XL) XCEL Method Impact Vest.    I really wanted to surf with it and get used to putting it on instead of the usual, "only on the serious days..."     Get into the habit of wearing one so to speak.      The plan is to wear one a lot next winter.    Sam Pa'e and I had the vest talk so many times and this coming winter I will finally get serious about it and wear it more...    Sam is the first guy I saw consistently wearing one.    He understands the perfect sense it makes.

So here's how its been going...    After so many days of perfect surf I started having tons of fun throwing myself over the falls or letting waves land on me with the full impact then relaxing under water to see how long it would take to surface without any swimming....     Another fun one was let a set wave break right behind me and see if I can take off in the explosion...    (This takeoff is the absolute hardest thing to do!)     My friends were stoked because it took me out of the rotation and they got some comedy to watch.   I would go really deep when a set would come and I would say, "Go for it, I'm just going over the falls..."

The good thing I noticed is because you get less energy taxed after going through multiple poundings, you can actually start to refine your wipeout skills.   I know this sounds weird but for me, I like to put myself into situations that simulate when things get heavy.      When the waves get big and perfect, you have to be willing to pull into the barrel on every wave but things don't always workout so I like to be prepared.    The vest allows for lots of wipeout practice...   

For me this is such a refreshing way to have fun.     Sure making every wave is a blast BUT,  getting hammered can be fun too.      With a vest it makes it even more enjoyable.     Hopeless closeout tube exploration where you can get the killer views, leash testing and underwater travel experiments...     Not in giant waves but fun size uncrowded stuff maybe 15 to 20' faces...    Enough power to light you up..     Something different that the vest opens up for me...   (Not recommending anyone do this stupid stuff but just sharing an update)

When the waves get like this or bigger, at least the body and mind are ready....    Honestly, you don't need a vest for waves like this but I prefer to have one...
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/makahastuff/websize/z_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: noworrieshawaii on June 18, 2008, 10:02:59 PM
 
For me this is such a refreshing way to have fun.     Sure making every wave is a blast BUT,  getting hammered can be fun too.   

Funny.. I caught a nasty head cold/sore throat the day I picked up my GORGEOUS new PSH 9'0". Called in sick at work but said what the heck... stay home or check out the head and a half high glass on a weekday...  Anyway, long story short.. not quite up to normal and got caught on the inside by the third set wave and man.. I swear there were 6 more... never seen so many set waves in a row.. I just caught a big breath and dove..and dove... and dove... and dove... Praying my leash didnt break.... Actually was pretty fun.. Cleared the ole sinsus out too...

Dont know how much fun I'd have going over the falls though.. That's kinda nuts... I'd hate to get wacked by my board..

Thanks Blane for the awesome new board. You guys truely take care of your customers... ;D
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Sam Pa'e on June 18, 2008, 10:29:48 PM
The more I use a life vest the more I tend to learn of it's benefit:

Today I took my SUP skills to another level. I surfed at Ala Moana bowls there were some 8-10ft faces (4-5ft local scale) and I was the only one standing-up. I was wearing my life vest at this spot knowing that today was a very heavy day. If anyone has ever tried surfing this spot at this size you'll know that it can get very heavy at times and this wave breaks from top to bottom and throws over a very shallow reef. I got some sick waves easily double over and got pitted in a barrel and had the front door shut in my face.

The amazing part of this was that after the pounding, after getting your bearing knowing which way is up, breaking surface & getting your next breath of air what most I hate dealing with is the AIR RATED WATER. If you don't know what this is it's a mixture of air and salt water which make the water less dense. Which makes it harder to stay a float. (Keep in mind the bigger/heavier the wave the less dense it gets).Now throw six waves in a set, your getting dragged by your board, your holding on to your paddle, and your caught in the impact zone....A life vest makes it a lot easier to focus.

I also took off on a big wave and got into an accident with a local guy there.

I was taking off on a big set and this guy was paddling up my wave. I was on his left side and he saw me taking off, well he bailed his board in front of me and my board ran over his board over. We got tangled up and pounded. We took six waves on the head I was getting the worse beating of my life I've ever had at that spot. Again dealing with the white water and current movement the vest made things a lot easier to focus. I was PISSED OFF but after looking at his board and saw three fin slice's through his board completely to the stringer, I was so grateful no one got KILLED. He was very apologetic, admitted fault and asked if I was alright.....I was fine

I don't recommend this to everyone, but if you would like to take your SUP to another level PLEASE be aware of the danger and the risk your putting yourself into. There's ways to avoid a risk and ways to control your risk. People and hazard co-exist every day and we do things to put some kind of control on our risk. Think about this next time you jump in your car and DON'T BUCKLE UP!!! ;)

Aloha Sam........
P.S....People +Hazard=Risk ::)
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: gkona on June 19, 2008, 04:55:33 AM
Haley,
  What kind of vest do you wear?
Sam,
 What about you ?what kind of vest do you use?
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: linter on June 19, 2008, 08:51:33 AM
i wonder how the xcel method compares to the dakine in terms of impact protection and float.  anyone got any ideas?
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: PonoBill on June 19, 2008, 04:27:41 PM
I'm sitting here with a giant cigar-shaped lump on my top left rib thinking "maybe I should start wearing an impact vest". Wasn't even a big wave--a dinky little waist high short period Oregon shorebreak mushburger. But I got the board right in the ribs and it paralyzed my diaphragm but good. Took quite a while to get a breath, and nearly a week later every time I cough I'm in serious pain. With a vest it would have been nothing.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Blane Chambers on June 19, 2008, 07:53:37 PM
More..... Just a quick little test on vests I've tried....   Sorry about not including retail prices.   I forget exactly how much I paid...

Here's what's left of my vest quiver...      What's missing is my Dakine Impact vest but I got a similar picture off line...    I also had another XCEL USCG (US Coast Guard Approved and another Body Glove one that I can't remember the name. )  

TYPEIII USCG PFD's (Type III PFDs are to be used in near-shore waters when there is a good chance of a quick rescue. Wearers will usually have to turn themselves face-up in the water and may have to lean back to avoid turning face-down. Type IIIs have the same minimum buoyancy as Type IIs and come in many types and styles. They are often designed with fashion in mind, as well as safety. Float coats and vest styles can often be worn to provide extra warmth in addition to safety.)


(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/newmisc508/websize/Vest1.JPG)
I'm adding a rating scale from 1 to 5 with 5 being the highest or best.

Body Glove Motion.   This vest is cut higher in the neck and arm pit.   This makes for a more uncomfortable feel when sitting on the board or floating after getting thrashed.   Kinda chokes and gives more chance of rash in the arm area when paddling.   I lasted only one surf with this one.
USCG Approved: Yes
Buoyancy: 5
Comfort: 2
Agility: 2
Protection: 5
Overall Quality: 3+ (Straps need to be tucked inside the back...)
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/newmisc508/websize/Vest4%20BG.JPG)

XCEL Mack  OK lower neck cut.   OK slightly lower arm pit cut.    Still a beefy feeling vest that feels restrictive.   I wore this vest on a big day and felt like it hindered crouching low to turn...   Will not use it again...   Lasted 4 surfs with this one.   Paddling never gave me rash.
USCG Approved: Yes
Buoyancy: 5
Comfort: 3
Agility: 3
Protection: 5
Overall Quality: 5   (Good, Solid Construction)
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/newmisc508/websize/Vest3%20XCELCCA.JPG)

Dakine Matrix Impact Vest  This vest is by far the best looking, best protecting and best constructed vest on the market.     This really is a bummer because for me, this one and its front, straight zippered equivalent is very restrictive for SUP compared to others...   Super high neck cut and high arm pit cut.     It is also very stiff which is why it feels so safe.    Getting in and out of it is TOUGH! 
USCG Approved: No
Buoyancy: 3
Comfort: 2
Agility: 2
Protection: 5
Overall Quality: 5+   (Awesome construction and beautiful!)
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/newmisc508/websize/Vest6%20Dakine%20Matrix.jpg)

Stearns (Generic Vest) This is a cheap vest I got from WALMART for approx $50.    It's so generic they didn't bother naming it.    It was the first one I ever bought.    Figured I try a cheap one first...   My favorite USCG vest.  This thing has impressed me the most.    The only thing I don't like about it is the straps are outside instead of tucked into the back.    I'll sew in some improvements myself.    Ultra low arm pit cut and low neck cut...    I recommend wearing a lycra top over this one to keep things in place.
USCG Approved: Yes
Buoyancy: 4+
Comfort: 4+
Agility: 4
Protection: 4+
Overall Quality: 3  (Cheap but you can get 2 for the price of one!)
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/newmisc508/websize/Vest2%20Stearns.JPG)

XCEL Method Impact Vest  This is my go to vest for most days.   Really comfy and great agility.    It's not USCG approved but has decent floatation.   Looks pretty good to...      Got absolutely hammered many times in this one and it saved me from hits quite a few times...    Stoke rating is high with this....
USCG Approved: No
Buoyancy: 3
Comfort: 4+
Agility: 4+
Protection: 3+
Overall Quality: 4+  (Looks good and made well)
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/newmisc508/websize/Vest5%20X%20Impact.JPG)

Hope this helps people choose something that is right for them...   I'm only one person with one view so look elsewhere for more info to help you find the right one for your body...   If any vest manufacturers are out there that think they have a better product than these and want me to try it I WILL PAY FULL RETAIL for one if it looks better, more comfortable, and is USCG approved.   Not looking for anything free.   Looking for something GOOD.

Aloha,
Blane


www.paddlesurfhawaii.com
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: noworrieshawaii on June 19, 2008, 08:05:47 PM
Ya might want to check out O'Neils. I got the Outlaw vest for when I was kiting... Arms cut pretty low and was pretty comfortable except for the girls... but no worries for you dudes... ;D
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Blane Chambers on June 19, 2008, 08:10:19 PM
Will DO! ;)   
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Sam Pa'e on June 19, 2008, 11:19:10 PM
Blaine,
Keep me posted on any new vest you try. If any life vest company contacts you and needs a SUP "crash dummie"...........SIGN ME UP :D

Aloha Sam
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: snappy on June 20, 2008, 01:08:50 AM
I've been wearing the Oneill wake vest on bigger days and am really happy with it.I feels just like a regular wetsuit vest and does not impede my surfing at all.It seems to give a bit of floatation but without the bulk of a pfd.I wear it after copping a rib cartlidge injury when I first started SUP.
Cheers from downunder.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Dwight (DW) on June 20, 2008, 02:10:16 AM
Blaine,
Keep me posted on any new vest you try. If any life vest company contacts you and needs a SUP "crash dummie"...........SIGN ME UP :D

Aloha Sam

Have you or Blane tried this years revised Dakine Matrix? The zipper now goes up about 2 inches higher. This makes a huge difference.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: skyfish on June 20, 2008, 02:57:57 AM
If you surf in a site that does not have and inmediate channel and for some reason you get caught in (we call it "PRENDIO! in PR), nothing to do but wait till the sets go by and current moves you to the other end, then a PFD is greatly appreciated. Used Body Glove's Vapor comp at the end of our season and it did made a difference since the amount of exertion needed to stay a float what minimized . I would use it anytime is solid 8 and bigger.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Blane Chambers on June 20, 2008, 08:09:42 AM
Blaine,
Keep me posted on any new vest you try. If any life vest company contacts you and needs a SUP "crash dummie"...........SIGN ME UP :D

Aloha Sam

Have you or Blane tried this years revised Dakine Matrix? The zipper now goes up about 2 inches higher. This makes a huge difference.

Howzit DW,
I tried 3 of them 2 of which were the straight front zippered one....   I wrote this review on it on page 2...  Take into consideration everyones body type is different.     For me, this is what I felt about it...

Dakine Matrix Impact Vest  This vest is by far the best looking, best protecting and best constructed vest on the market.     This really is a bummer because for me, this one and its front, straight zippered equivalent is very restrictive for SUP compared to others...   Super high neck cut and high arm pit cut.     It is also very stiff which is why it feels so safe.    Getting in and out of it is TOUGH! 
USCG Approved: No
Buoyancy: 3
Comfort: 2
Agility: 2
Protection: 5
Overall Quality: 5+   (Awesome construction and beautiful!)
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/newmisc508/websize/Vest6%20Dakine%20Matrix.jpg)

Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Blane Chambers on June 20, 2008, 08:51:16 AM
Blaine,
Keep me posted on any new vest you try. If any life vest company contacts you and needs a SUP "crash dummie"...........SIGN ME UP :D

Aloha Sam

Sounds good Sam!     I remember first time seeing you out on the North Shore around 4 years ago wearing a vest.     You were on your big purple board getting some insane lefts and I was going right on my old Munoz with the short paddle.      This winter is gonna be fun!!

I'm really excited for next winter because I think I can finally remember to put one on because I am getting more into exploring what a good vest can do for us.     My number one priority with it is the comfort factor.    If it restricts you from surfing then I don't want to wear one.     This is why I have bought and sold or donated 8 of them.     Different sizes etc.....    Its tough to know how they feel in the store.   Sometimes they feel awesome then you go out and they restrict or give rash or most times both.   

Would of been nice to of had a vest here...   Got worked AND hit by my board...   A few years ago....
photo by hawaiianswell
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/newmisc508/websize/11.jpg)

Wearing the XCEL Mack here.   It's still to bulky and restricting.     When crouching to cutback or do a low center gravity bottom turn, it pushes the vest up to hit my neck.    This was the last time I used this one... photo by allen mozo
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/austinetc/websize/1_1.jpg)

Here I'm wearing the XCEL Method Impact.   It feels so much better because it allows more freedom of movement and is not bothersome when fully crouched off the bottom...    My goal is to find one that feels like this but is USCG approved.   photo by allen mozo
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/makahastuff/websize/screen3_1.jpg)

The XCEL Method Impact about to be impacted.     Hitting the water at speed or having the lip land on you is another perfect time for these vests to make your life better.       There is a huge difference when you screw up and go "splat " at speed with a vest and without...    Yup, I'm gonna find me the best vest for next winter then buy 2 of them...
photo by bruno lemos
(http://photos.imageevent.com/torturechambers/makahastuff/websize/mk.jpg)

There are plenty medium large size days like the above photo that are not crowded.      If you are willing to go to out of the way places...      You can have it all to yourself or whoever you bring.     Vest makes sense.


BC


www.paddlesurfhawaii.com
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: stoneaxe on June 20, 2008, 11:48:45 AM
Damn Blane...I think if I was planning on going out in that I 'd want to be wearing a M1 Abrams brand vest. I don't think it's USCG approved though.... ;D
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: snappy on June 21, 2008, 02:50:41 AM
The cost of fuel for the M1 Abrams may be a problem.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: CB1 on June 21, 2008, 04:25:42 AM
Blane, have you given any feedback/suggestions to DaKine?  Maybe since you and River (Dan) are prominent in the industry, you guys can bend DaKine's ear so they can make some modifications where their product is more suitable for SUP.  I can only imagine that any modifications made will fit just as well for the kite and windsurfing community as well.

Your photos are should grab their R&D departments attention!!! 
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Sam Pa'e on June 21, 2008, 06:24:11 AM
I've brought this Idea to a "Da Kind" rep. years ago. They said "it sounds like a good idea". But like anything else unless there's a liability issues & pending approvals. ::)

I'm not we'll known in the surfing industry, I have a lot good ideas and have gone through years of R&D with a vest for surfing (prone & SUP). What I fear is that a big name person will grab this idea and market it. Then the small & humble guys (me & Blaine) will be left in the dark. >:(

I guess....If this does happen and it makes a person safer in the water........"then so be it!" At least ocean can be a safer place....... :)

Aloha.......Sam
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Dwight (DW) on June 21, 2008, 08:35:17 AM
Blane,

Next time you go to China, stop by a soft goods factory and put your own vest design in production.

Dream big, you're on your way!

Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: tumbledry on February 04, 2009, 11:50:03 PM
Blane, Sam (or anyone wearing a vest) what vest(s) got you through this past winter?
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: PonoBill on February 05, 2009, 10:43:34 AM
Blane, thanks for starting this thread and thanks to all for popping it back up from time to time. Every time I read it I see some new stuff. I'm still not wearing a vest, even on days that pretty much scare the heck out of me, but I'm going to start. I need to find something that fits without turning me into the michelin man. I'm pretty close to that already, so it might be a tall order. I've bought three so far and none of them work well. the Dakine comes close but it pushes out under my arms and chafes. I might have to do some tailoring.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Shawn Michael on February 05, 2009, 01:18:50 PM
I have gotten sent back in 3 times in long beach.  Those cartridge inflatable waist pack are notoriously unreliable.  I have seen several pictures on this site of guys wearing Kokotat Orbit (pretty sure) PFDs and those look workable if you HAD to have a vest.  And I mean this for "saftey" and for getting the CG to stop hassling me....even when I had the waist pack they still pulled me over and standing there fiddling around I fell off for good measure.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Sam Pa'e on February 05, 2009, 07:14:34 PM
Aloha JC,
Blane, Sam (or anyone wearing a vest) what vest(s) got you through this past winter?
Currently now I'm wearing a impact vest of from Pacific Rad Sports. They are manufacture by "Bullet Ski Line" and is made of "Neoprene Compression Foam". It's well constructed and floats me well (and I'm a big guy). This is what I used in the 'Makahiki SUP Invitationals"at Makaha several weeks ago. http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=2988.15

The waves was 8'-10'ft with some occasional 12' footer (20'-24' faces). I will use this vest only in these conditions, anything bigger I go to a USCG Approved Vest. If you need a vest contact Eddie a "Pacific Rad Sports": http://www.prshawaii.com/

Here's the Impact Vest:
(http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n396/Sam21_21/000_0355.jpg)(http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n396/Sam21_21/000_0356.jpg)(http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n396/Sam21_21/000_0357.jpg)

Chuck Patterson came over to wish me luck in the finals.....Cool :D
(http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n396/Sam21_21/Makahi.jpg)

Now if the waves get any bigger then that, I'll use the same vest I used in last years 2008 Ku Ikaika event. It's neoprene and has a good floatation with very little chafing...and to top it off.....it was cheap..$42
(http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n396/Sam21_21/PFD007.jpg)(http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n396/Sam21_21/PFD002.jpg)(http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n396/Sam21_21/PFD003.jpg)

Here's me at the event:
(http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n396/Sam21_21/SamP-1.jpg)

Please keep in mind that all the best equipment in the world won't keep you from understanding how much "risk" your putting your into. Never rely on your equipment to give you that understanding. It's your "experience & knowledge" that give you that understanding....Your equipment is just an "extension" of your ability to understand how much "risk" your putting yourself into....... ;) ;)

I hope this was helpful......Be safe in the ocean. It can change in a moments notice!!

Aloha......Sam
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Dwight (DW) on February 06, 2009, 04:05:46 AM
I saw a new model Dakine vest when I was in Hawaii last week. At least it was new to me.

It was not the Matrix, this one was a tow-in specific vest with handle on the shoulders, so the sled guy could grab you.

It had more floatation than the Matrix and didn't have the elastic band under the arm pit that gives some people fit problems with the Matrix.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Sam Pa'e on February 06, 2009, 06:59:51 AM
Aloha Dwight,
It's the "Tow-In" Vest made DaKine........I have one.. :D
I saw a new model Dakine vest when I was in Hawaii last week. At least it was new to me.

It was not the Matrix, this one was a tow-in specific vest with handle on the shoulders, so the sled guy could grab you.

It had more floatation than the Matrix and didn't have the elastic band under the arm pit that gives some people fit problems with the Matrix.
This vest is what I wish I had when I used to do tow-in.......several years back. It's great!!!

It's been around for about ::) ::)  4years now and is very popular with the tow-in community......It's not USCG approved but has the same buoyancy criteria or more.

The handle on it's shoulder/neck area is a safety measure if the "towed" surfer was to ever have a problem while getting "beat to hell" on a 40'+ wall of white water and held down longer then his breath holding ability can handle.

His partner now is able to come in and grab him (while he's unconscious) and get out of harms way and start the chain of survival or CPR. This is what you can learn in the "Ocean Safety Educational Course". But that a whole new different story.

Here's the link if your interested in learning/attending:
http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=2042.0

(http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n396/Sam21_21/015.jpg)(http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n396/Sam21_21/013.jpg)(http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n396/Sam21_21/014.jpg)

However I tried using it for SUP and I must say I that it's not a very good vest to use. Please don't get me wrong it does float very well ...BUT! after your first wipe out the vest WILL absorb water. Now a weight factor comes into play. You will float to the top but you feel like your wearing a soaked towel.

The water will drain-out (eventually), but throw in the fact that after your first beating and paddling out to the line-up your bearing that extra weight, trying to paddle, your breathing become heavy, your shoulder becomes tired, and your trying keep up with this 20' massive wall that's coming at you...... :o :o  WOW I'm getting tired just explaining it. (You get the picture)

Needless to say that it works VERY well with the "Tow-In" communitty, but I don't think it will fare just as well with SUP'er. Just my two cent & sharing my MANA'O.......

Aloha......Sam
P.S....I'll put these things through the test so no one has too. :D :D.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Tony DaKine on February 06, 2009, 06:35:06 PM


Please keep in mind that all the best equipment in the world won't keep you from understanding how much "risk" your putting your into. Never rely on your equipment to give you that understanding. It's your "experience & knowledge" that give you that understanding....Your equipment is just an "extension" of your ability to understand how much "risk" your putting yourself into....... ;) ;)


You said it Sam. I've been in and around the ocean most of my life and I still feel like I'm only scratching the surface of knowledge. I watch guys that were born and raised surfing the heavy waves of Hawaii and I'm always watching and trying to learn from them. There's just so much more going on in the ocean here with currents, rips, rocks, and just massive grinders rolling through. I like Brian Keaulana's approach to ocean safety. He approaches it with an almost military like planning process and attention to detail.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests)
Post by: Tony DaKine on February 06, 2009, 06:52:40 PM
Another plus is that they keep you warm and you can swim forever. I lost a board in december and the offshores were blowing it out to sea. I swam for 2 1/2 hours into open ocean to chase it down.

I just read this and it blew my mind. I would have written that board off 15 mins into the swim and turned back.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: river on February 06, 2009, 11:19:24 PM
The  Dakine Matrix Impact Kiteboarding Vest is my choice.  I don't even realize I have it on when I am out there.  Not a ton of flotation but lots of protection, light weight, and comfy for me. 
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Shawn Michael on February 11, 2009, 09:17:26 PM
I got my kokotat orbit PFD and for touring it is really great (not for surfing) It is not going to cause you to overheat and is totally unrestrictive.....the CG can kiss my ass.  Right past all the rowers, kitesurfers, windsurfers, outriggers and ding dongs in kayaks only after the SUP.

http://www.atlantickayaktours.com/Pages/Retail/PFD/Orbit-Tour.shtml
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Shnoover on February 11, 2009, 10:21:15 PM
Shawn - Did you get the "tour" with the pockets?  If so, what are your thoughts?  I started checking them out based on your earlier post and it looks like the best of the "play" vests from the Kayak co's for flatwater/downwinder only...  The Austral is a bit cheaper, but I think the Orbit might be worth the $20 bucks or whatever it is.  Got any pics?  I might go pick one up this weekend, the USCG wakeboard vest zipper just broke so I had to pull on.  I had a harbor patrol come buzz me, give a quick look and take off last weekend.  First time I've worn it on that loop - good timing!  I wore it Sunday too for good measure, but it's not real comfortable.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: Shawn Michael on February 12, 2009, 01:35:42 AM
Yes, I got the tour.  I carry one of the S.P.O.T. safety devices so I like to have a pocket for that and a gels as I go for long trips.  For me one of the big issues with a PFD is overheating and that is not an issue with the orbit....it is so minimal and comfortable you really forget you are wearing it.  The only problem is that is is hard to work with your hydration pack but the vests that have hydration sleeves are very hot when it is 90....such as the hydralics race pro.  Mocke Paddle jackets are great but they are not approved by the CG and they do not make one that fits my size.   
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: PeteCresswell on September 25, 2009, 06:26:15 PM
All I can say is amen!  I still find myself amazed at what you can do on a SUP and one is you can ride a really small wave into really shallow water  . . . Before your fall off!  I'm sure the novelty will wear off soon but it will still be a great thing to do on that last wave of the day . . .

Everyone can decide for themselves but after the bruising I got a few days ago and the reefs I've been shooting through I think the helmet will go back on and at least a thin impact vest will be added to the attire.  When I gain more skill and learn to kick out sooner this will change  ;D  Then again I will never be cool so what me worry  ???

I don't wear a helmet when biking - except for MTB riding.

I don't wear a helmet when windsurfing.... period.   Ditto life jacket.

Having said all that, I windsurf with a guy who works regularly in hospital emergency rooms as an orthopod.   This guy wears a helmet and life jacket *religiously*..... 

That tells me something.... although I don't seem yet to have the brains to act on it.
Title: Re: Personal Floatation Devices (Life Vests) Just one persons view.
Post by: PonoBill on September 25, 2009, 09:28:32 PM
I wear a camelback pretty much all the time that I'm cruising or doing downwinders. the CG seems to think it's a life preserver. i don't see any reason to correct them.
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