Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Gear Talk => Topic started by: NLCHAWAII on August 10, 2010, 11:00:48 AM
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Hello , as my first post here I wanted to ask a question . I just built a double bend paddle for myself recently and I'm hooked . Theres no way I want to go back to a straight shaft again . I do upwind sessions and also sup surf and it performs exceptional for me in both areas . My question is , how many have gotten to try a double bend paddle and why aren't there really any available on the market ? A little insight as to what I have .... 82" , 8x14 blade at 12 degrees , a taperred square/oval shaft with a 18 degree bend with a 9" lower hand sweet spot , 691 grams , full carbon/epoxy with a balsa core (http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c337/apnix/DSC09540.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c337/apnix/DSC09561.jpg)
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That's crazy, how does it affect the stroke?
As to why they aren't more common, I'm guessing it takes a lot more to make than just a straight shaft.
Anyone else tried one of these?
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I forgot to mention WHY I'm hooked on this paddle . With this shape I'm getting a full grip with my lower hand which is greatly helping me pull with my lats and not other smaller muscle groups . I was able to cover about four miles in three hours and surf six different spots in Waikiki in one recent session without feeling totally exhausted . For upwind , I'm getting more forward reach at the beginning of a stroke which is helping me keep my forward momentum , and in the surf , I just feel like I've got more power in hand for those short wave catching power bursts .
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Brad Gillespie (Gillespie Paddles) has made DB wooden paddles for SUP since 2005( OR longer), in fact a DB paddle was my first Sup paddle, couldn't find anything else to use with a Munoz 12' surftech "longboard"(25 1/2" wide)as a SUPboard.
I prefer std.paddles , I agree you get more reach w/ DB
BTW ...Brad makes beautiful paddles.
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I know Werner have had them for a while and a few team paddlers had them at last years BOP but I didn't see any this year.
Kialoa have them in their OC paddles and I'm sure they've tested SUP proto's and I know Dave makes what his team paddlers want.
So the fact that Werner never went into production and the same with Kialoa makes me think that the team paddlers don't like them.
I'd love to try one.
DJ
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wow thats cool looking and now damnit im really intrigued!-great-more SUP crap to throw $$ at! ;D
I dont distance paddle very often-isnt it weird when surfing?!
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Werner Paddles has just announced the release of our bent shaft option. This will be available for both the Nitro and the New "Fuse" Blade which is the big brother to the Nitro. I will post some pics here soon.
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Cool river-cant wait to see them-this bent paddle thing has got me intrigued-hey because its bent will it be cheaper!? :D
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I tried on a few weeks ago when I was with the guys from Pau Hana. A friend of theirs is making them, but I forget the specifics on price and availability. When I talk to them again I'll ask again.
The paddle felt pretty good, but it was too short for me to really assess. The bend felt natural and the stroke was pretty powerful. Hope to get to try a proper sized version.
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Bent paddles have been around a long time. Malama makes gorgeous ones. As I recall Randy (Admin) had Malama make the paddle he got for his dad as a double bend. I've tried them, I like them, but then I like almost every paddle I try--except the Peahi blades. Dan (River) had the bent Werner at the last Hood River race. Very trick. He used it and won the race. Of course I think he might have won with a broom, but still...
Lots of canoe folks use bent paddles. the idea of course is that you get to reach further forward and your hand is at a better angle. Some great paddlers use them, and some use straight paddles. One more option.
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I've been out surfing on the south side of Oahu this week three times thus far . 1-2 feet but a once in awhile head high set comes thru . When people ask whats up with the double bend paddle I'm having fun telling them that my orthopedic surgeon prescribed it for a wrist condition . I tell them that I was able to special order it thru my local drug store but that my HMO would only cover the generic no name model . ' Oh really , wow ' they say . I'm having fun in the surf and with the paddle and the curiosity that they paddle is getting . After a few weeks on this paddle I'm still totally hooked . The next one I make , I'm going to raise the two bends up a few inches . When I'm paddling for a wave and paying more attention to the wave and not my hand placement , I'm finding that the bend below my lower hand , I'm naturally grabbing in the middle of the bend which is starting to spread my hands pretty far apart ( about 36-39" in-fact ) . Problem is that to get the blade fully submerge for a non cavitating stroke , I end up a little to crouched for comfort at take off . I prefer being more prone at my last stroke into the wave so I can start moving around the board quicker .
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The next one I make , I'm going to raise the two bends up a few inches . When I'm paddling for a wave and paying more attention to the wave and not my hand placement , I'm finding that the bend below my lower hand , I'm naturally grabbing in the middle of the bend which is starting to spread my hands pretty far apart ( about 36-39" in-fact ) .
I think that's an important point.
IMO.. They work well in shorted OC paddles because your lower hand doesn't vary more than an inch or so.. if ever.. and with SUP paddles it's much more.
I found once when I was trying to work out where to stick some paddle shaft grip I started with some tape for the upper mark and tape for the lower mark.. and then paddled an all conditions over a few days.. I found that I had to keep moving the tape further up and further down so there ended up with almost 15" of shaft area that needed grip.
Some if these double bend shafts only have a small area for the lower hand.. and then there's the problem of cutting down a shaft for different peoples heights.
So unless you're making a custom for yourself it gets pretty tricky.
The new Kialoa Teva Hoe OC paddle thats just been released is more of a single bend paddle with the bend being above your lower hand and still alowing for a better angle on your lower wrist no matter where you place it.
That might work for SUP.. ?
DJ
(http://www.kialoa.com/images/Teva-home-page.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/djp-2/PC200008Medium.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv160/djp-2/PC200009Medium.jpg)
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Wow , I like that Kialoa blue blade , thats nice . Almost like a large metallic flake but seems a little different , nice . I went for a paddle with an old pal today up on the north shore of Oahu . It was side shore windy and the swell was about chest high on some sets but it was a nice sample session . We cruised Sunset beach and caught a few waves at the bowl section . My pals verdict on the db paddle is that he wants one by next week for the Dukes legend contest in Waikiki and a few for his surf school . He said that the position that the bends put his upper body he had a more prone paddling posture , and that he felt he definitely was pulling easier and more powerfully . In fact he was so excited about the blade that he wanted to do a ' SUP this ' pic with it . I'm doing another sample session with a friend tomorrow in Waikiki . I'll post his feed back soon . Here's Buttons' ' SUP THIS ' pic(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c337/apnix/DSC09616.jpg)
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Great pic.. Jeez could that guy be any fitter?.. ;D
DJ
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No lie, make that guy a paddle... and a twinkie. ;) I gotta get in the water more.
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I meet up with an older friend ,Vernon this weekend at a spot called Threes in Waikiki , to sample the db paddle . He sampled it for about an hour and passed it around to all of his friends . Lotta jokes about the shape . Although my paddle was about 11 inches too long for Vernon , it didn't seem to cramp his style out in the waves . Despite the shape , the main criticism that I received was that my 1-1/2" x 1-1/8" squared/oval shaft was a touch on the thick side and needs to be shaved down a 1/8" in both directions . His conclusion was that the db shaft wasn't for him in the surf but that he definitely wanted to try it for down wind . As a compliment , he did order a custom straight shaft paddle that morning and I got about fifty nice comments from various people . I'll be shooting at this weekends ' Dukes festival ' in Waikiki and the afore pictured individual , Buttons Kaluhiokalani , with be there showing HIS new db paddle . It will be an opportunity for more constructive criticism . I'm looking for the opportunity to get some proper unbias video of the paddle in use here in the near future .
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Wow that is the best shape I have seen Buttons in a long time. Great to see him always smiling and keeping it positive.
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A short update to the db project . I spent the day at the Dukes festival in Waikiki on Saturday with a hand full of db paddles . It was quite an event . Many many 50 year old plus surf legends were on hand and it was a treat to get to talk and learn from those that have been in the water for decades . Lots of smiles , and lots of stories . The out come for me and the exaggerated db paddle shape is that I'll be working with three downwind racers . One in the junior division , a very fit gentleman from Australia and a retired head life guard from hawaii . The r&d working with these three should be very interesting . Based on conversations from yesterday , it's clear that there needs to be a lighter , more flexible DownWind version and a stronger , tougher surf design . I was very surprised at the interest for custom made paddles . The disabled surf ski guys want shorter double end paddles , the racers want more flexible shafts , the surf guys want stronger shafts and blades , and the one man canoe guys want lighter designs as well . I've spent some time these last two weeks visiting various composite shops and talking with various owners , And what I'm hearing is that not very much composite sup paddle product is actually made here in the islands . Most are made overseas and a Hawaiian sticker slapped on . Also during the last month I've taken up a paddle repair service on the side , which has been rather busy . It affords me the opportunity to see the various material use designs from various manufactures . The older Surftechs are filthy greasy inside - part of a mandrel mold release , the Pohaku shafts are the trickiest to repair and the Kialoas with the top layer of fiberglass are the easiest and nicest looking repairs to do . The bottom line is I've begun a R&D process here and my intent it to approach it from various points of view during this refinement process . If by chance your in the Honolulu area and would like to sample a double bend paddle , send a message .
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Love the shape! Your shot of the paddle floating in the water was great. Funky lense too, at least to my eye.
I think Danny Brown at Whiskeyjack Paddles makes or used to make a db paddle specifically for SUP. But have not heard much from or about him since he left Duluth, MN and moved to Whitefish, MT.
I think standardizing on a sweet spot for the lower hand is going to be the trick for this type of paddle. But if you opt to do custom work then that bit is easier since you would be building one-offs hopefully with explicit measurements in hand.
I also wonder about logistics. Specifically shipping those bad boys w/could be interesting. Also a retail store choosing to keep an inventory of those paddles on hand, would have to come up with a different storage arrangement relative to storing straight or 1 bend paddles.
I might just have to spread out my jigs and try one myself out of cedar and poplar. Don't know if I'll be able to one finger balance it though :)
You make a very eye catching product!
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is that balsa in the shaft and blade??
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-Lazymodo- yes , it's a locally available variety here in Hawaii . -JeffBach- thank you for the compliment and perspective ( I was shooting with a 16mm fisheye lens ) . I've priced out straight shaft shipment thru USPS but not for the db shaft . I'm thinking that abrasion and puncture protection are the two most important factors for shipment packaging . I know a few throwers and I know that most of these lighter odd shaped items go on top of the pile under cargo netting or in a light item bin .
I made an ultra light straight shaft paddle for one of my riders last week and it came in right at 485 grams . After several surf sessions , he just can't get used to the pushing it forward in the wind feel when trying to catch a wave . Flex wasn't an issue , but the sensation of the blade blowing away just made the paddle to uncomfortable for him , and he's been SUP surfing for 8 years now to . Go figure . I've been getting a feeling that somewhere around 600 grams is a reasonable bottom end for sup surfing paddle weight . I also know that for the racers , 600 grams is a top end for weight . Lighter the better for most of the racers I've met with .
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Yup, we've made quite a few double bends but have never gotten it past the prototype stage. Its one of those designs that would be easy to sell but is hard as heck to make.
I'll basically second all that David John said about grip position. Its not one model cut to length. It would be 6 unique jigs...etc.
I'll try to post a pic of ours.
Danny Brown
Whiskeyjack Paddles
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Malama makes some beauty bent shafts as well.
(http://www.standupzone.com/handle.jpg)
(http://www.standupzone.com/blade.jpg)
An old post:
http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=952.0 (http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=952.0)
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Okay , so whats a double bend paddle design project without some Tahitians involved ? How about Tahitian Royalty ? Tahitian Chief Miko Toofa Krainer , crew member of the 2007 voyage of the Hokule’a and Alingano Maisu to Micronesia and Japan is wanting to SUP THIS and is taking a few to share with the guys back home at local surf breaks and open ocean crossings and as he put it ' Conquer the Wind ' . He liked the strong caster effect created by the shape and that you could go full power right at the beginning catch of your stroke because of the full four finger grip the shape allows .
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c337/apnix/DSC09768.jpg)
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I just got word from a very reliable source that one of our older and well known board/paddle makers in Hawaii is currently having their first run of double bend paddles being produced in China . Should be interesting .
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I've been busy with custom orders for a bit now and working with two of my DB test riders . R&D stands for research and destroy . Destroy nothing equals nothing learned . My straight and double bend shafts have now gone hollow . This now affords me about 3 ounces more fiber content per shaft and allows more design flexibility within certain weight limits . My hollow db paddles are averaging aprox. 450 grams . This feather weight coupled with a softer flex is making for a VERY noticeable reduction in fatigue during sprinting downwinders . We've been learning that the average competitive aged male can generate between 25-35 lbs thrust at the blade tip . The upper limit being for a gorilla strong man and for only a few strokes that thrust can be maintained . The average stroke thrust is generally about 20 lbs or less for the a average competitive male . Dihedral blade contours are a joke . We're finding that they influence blade drift and flutter very little if at all . Shaft flex and twist on the other-hand is a huge factor in flutter or drifting sensation . Google ' fishing rod spine ' to get an idea what I'm talking about . Within the next few months I'd like to break the 400 gram race paddle weight , I'm working on a whole new down-wind race paddle SYSTEM and I'll eventually have some pics and vids of product in action . Stay tuned .... - NLC
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There are dn paddles at the local shop, kialoa I believe. Haven't tried one yet but urge posts here seem favorable.
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Here's the new Double Bend stand up paddle from Whiskeyjack Paddles. There seems to be a growing interest in Doubles for SUP.
(http://www.whiskeyjackpaddles.com/images/doubleSUP.jpg)
http://www.whiskeyjackpaddles.com (http://www.whiskeyjackpaddles.com)
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Nice looking paddle. Wood always comes out tops in the looks department.
The long relatively straight portion of the shaft after the top bend gives the lower hand a longer area to grip the more ergonomic bent part of the shaft. That sounds like a good idea.
One advantage of db paddles is the longer reach forward you can get because the blade extends further than it would with a straight shaft. It's hard to tell, but looking at your photo, it looks like the blade would be in the same position as with a straight paddle. Maybe having the blade extend further forward would be an advantage. A side view of the paddle would be nice.
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Here's a photo from the Werner Paddles blog showing the increased reach using a bent shaft paddle. Anyone tried the Werner Paddle yet? Werner states that the bent shaft paddles result in more board speed and less wrist strain.
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I've been using the Nitro bent shaft for a week. It took a few minutes getting use to hand placement and switch over. The paddle definitely reaches farther and the lower wrist angle make pulling on the blade a bit easier. I realize I still use the same energy as my straight paddles, but I'm going faster according to my garmin. I didn't feel faster, but average and max speed both increased. The length is custom order, I'm at 14" over on my F16 and wouldn't go any shorter. It is a few ounces heavier than my QB, but like I mentioned, I'm faster. No flutter in the blade whatsoever.
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Takeo, curious to know... How much faster were you for your average (over what distance?) and max speeds with your bent paddle than a regular straight paddle. Providing either actual numbers or % increases would be great.
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Takeo, curious to know... How much faster were you for your average (over what distance?) and max speeds with your bent paddle than a regular straight paddle. Providing either actual numbers or % increases would be great.
Argosi,
It's really hard for me to quantify the increase in speed since the conditions I paddle in change daily and I've only used the bent shaft 6 or 7 sessions so far. But just for example, average speed for a couple miles in small chop and light winds, usually into the wind, use to be about 4.0-4.2 mph with max speeds around 5.1-5.3, with the bent Nitro, average speed up to 4.7-5.4 and max speed 5.5 to 6.0.
I live on the windward side of the Big Island where there is no real flatwater. The bay gets sorta glassy here and there, but there's still currents to deal with. I can say that there is absolutely no flutter to the blade, which is probably attributed towards the Nitro design and the controllability of the bent shaft. The extra reach really adds power to the stroke. I switched back to my straight shaft yesterday and with a loose grip, it was fluttering all over the place, which meant more arm fatigue to control the fluttering. The Nitro bent shaft is much more forgiving, therefore, more effective for me anyway.
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I've always thought that a bent shaft would reduce flutter. I just discovered a somewhat crude form of sup paddle training by just standing on the edge of a swimming pool and paddling. The hardest part is the heavy water (you don't move; you gotta move the water) and the accompanying paddle wiggle. It's as if every stroke is the first few strokes taking off from a dead stop on a real board. And someone chimed in that rowers actually have professionally made pools just for training purposes (where the "boat" doesn't move).
I'd be interested to see if a bent shaft paddle would lessen (maybe eliminate?) paddle flutter in this situation. That would be great testimony to a good design! And, even as cheap as I am, I would still probably buy one! ;D
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in my experience, a well designed blade with a diherdal that splits the water at the entry point greatly reduces flutter. A flat blade face tends to flutter more as does a bigger blade, so the difference in the flutter might be a result of a better blade face design or smaller blade more than the double bend.
I find the picture with the additional reach convincing.
I know Werner paddles is offering them now and I think I might have to order some to offer at our shop and to try out.
Nikki Gregg won the BOP age group race on a double bend last year and my friend Kainoa Beaupre likes his but I noticed that Dan Gravere, the Werner sales rep, usually uses a straight shaft when racing...
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Thanks, blueplanetsurf! Interesting. The dihedral and the bent shaft both make sense to me, although the lever action of the bent shaft would seem to provide much more stability. I would think the bent shaft would act in the same manner as those hand drills with the U in the handle. And if your pull is straight, it should keep the blade perfectly perpendicular to your line of travel. See if I can get a pic in here...
http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww354/iggy460/old-hand-drill-small.jpg (http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww354/iggy460/old-hand-drill-small.jpg)
Imagine the paddle blade is the bit. If you're holding the handle of this drill (like pulling on a bent shaft), it would be very hard to turn the drill bit/blade (like flutter).
BUT...By the looks of it, the recovery part of the stroke with a bent shaft would require more motion of the hand/arm; you'd have to swing your hand out a little more to keep the blade from hitting the board.
Geez I'm thinking about all this stuff way too much. And I'm not even drinking. :D
BTW For those of you who don't know, blueplanetsurf is one of those guys who paddles like a motorboat and is always near the top of the elite heap in races. So my ears perk up when he says, "In my experience..."
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I made a bent shaft paddle in 2008... it ended up being way too heavy and over built, but I got the general idea... more neutral wrist position and farther forward reach... Now it just hangs on my wall like all my wood paddles...
If/when Kialoa makes one... I'll have to try it!
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Greatdane,
That looks beautiful! The talent of folks on this site never ceases to amaze me.
Do you recall whether the bent shaft helped with paddle flutter?
Aloha!
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Hey SixFeet... I only used that paddle about 3 times before I realized the shaft was too big in diameter and my hand was fatiguing, and it was way too heavy. I don't remember the blade fluttering at all, but wether that was from the bent shaft design, I can't say.
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Hi six feet,
thanks for the compliment and the picture of the drill, that actually makes sense to me and you are right, the bend should give you more directional control of the blade and therefore reduce flutter.
Thanks!
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Only offsetting the blade will reduce flutter with a bent shaft. The bend in some cases can actually increase flutter. The Werner Bent has a one inch offset. IE: The blade is one inch further forward than lower hand gripping area. The Werner bent shaft paddles have the least flutter of any paddle I have ever tried.
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Blade length and angle are contributing factors as well . The exaggerated db paddle pictured at the beginning of this thread has roughly 2-1/2 inches of offset from the blade to the lower hand grip . The feeling is zero flutter . It's fun trading paddles out in the water and watching their reaction when handed back their straight shaft after a half hour with the db paddle . Back to two fingers and wobbly blades .
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FYI , part of our R&D project is to qualify results with numbers . To be able to do this , we've needed to come up with a number of tests and ways to measure the performance results . One of these tests was to figure out how much thrust or force a person could apply to a paddle at maximum effort and as a constant effort . That came out to be 35 lbs at the blade tip as a maximum and 20 lbs as a feasible constant . The latest test has shown what force your lower hand has to exert to get a given force at the blade tip . For a 82" paddle and a 34" lower hand grip location it takes 55 lbs exerted by the lower hand to get 20 lbs worth of force at the blade tip . On the high end it takes 90 lbs of force by the lower hand to get 35 lbs at the blade tip . On your next visit to the gym try doing your normal workout using just two fingers to hold onto the weight . Also try holding a 90 lbs dumbbell with just two fingers . The question I would then ask is if you felt that you were at your peek performance with just two fingers .... FYI
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Here's a photo from the Werner Paddles blog showing the increased reach using a bent shaft paddle. Anyone tried the Werner Paddle yet? Werner states that the bent shaft paddles result in more board speed and less wrist strain.
nice shot of the extra reach for the double bend. However, it reminds me of a stroke-technique video that Danny Ching did for OC-1, where he mentioned that everyone always have great reach when the blade is out of the water (and when people are taking pictures), but large percentage of paddlers put the blade in few inches back from their maximum reach position.
As for flutter, i never have problems with paddle flutter with large blades or wood blades, but give me those fancy carbon blades with super thin, tapered entry (Regardless of bends), i fluttered like crazy. Paying special attention to planting the blade helped a lot for me to reduce the flutter.
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This was my attempt at a DB a couple of years ago , I've made 100's of outrigger paddles so I thought I would give a Sup DB a go . I molded it off a Gillispe double bend outrigger paddle and started out with a 9 degree offset but only ended up with about 3 degress.I took it for a test paddle out front of my house in the canal , beautiful looking paddle but unfortunately it does it's best work hanging on the wall and that's where it stayed , didn't work at all.
Rob
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Here's the new Double Bend stand up paddle from Whiskeyjack Paddles. There seems to be a growing interest in Doubles for SUP.
(http://www.whiskeyjackpaddles.com/images/doubleSUP.jpg)
http://www.whiskeyjackpaddles.com (http://www.whiskeyjackpaddles.com)
I just ordered this paddle yesterday and I can't wait to get my hands on it and try it out. I've been really happy with my straight shaft Whiskeyjack paddle...I'm very curious to see how this new one will work out
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I've been using the Nitro bent shaft for a week.
Takeo: Did you consider the bent shaft Fusion blade? What size was your straight shaft blade as compared to your Nitro? The Nitro seems pretty snall.
(I'm deciding between the bent shaft Nitro and the bent shaft Fusion. I'm not that strong, but I'd like some power for the races. )
Thanks!
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I've been using the Nitro bent shaft for a week.
Takeo: Did you consider the bent shaft Fusion blade? What size was your straight shaft blade as compared to your Nitro? The Nitro seems pretty snall.
(I'm deciding between the bent shaft Nitro and the bent shaft Fusion. I'm not that strong, but I'd like some power for the races. )
Thanks!
Sorry, missed this one. I looked at the Werner Fuse in bent shaft configuration and figured for my ocean conditions, the Fuse may be too big. The Nitro looks small, but it' probably because it's narrow. It is a higher cadence shape. Into the wind, I am glad to have the Nitro and it give me plenty enough power. If I was on glassy flat water, or downwind, I may consider a bigger blade like the Fuse. I'm about 185 lbs, for the bigger paddlers, the Fuse may also be a better match.
I'm loving the bent shaft as I find I have better reach, better ergonomics, and therefore better paddling time with less fatigue.
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The only issue I have with the double bend paddles is that they are not adjustable in length.
You must buy the size that is closest you need.
From a retailer perspective - that means no matter what sizes I stock . . . they will always be "the wrong size".
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I've made several db paddles since summer ranging from 78" - 86" and I've sampled each of them before they go out . Although the 86" was a stretch to use , it felt really good ' as did the lower end of the size range . My preferred size for surf is 81" , and downwind is 83" . But having gotten to try many different sizes of db paddles , I've never felt locked into just one size .
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^^^ But you have to buy it "sized" - meaning you don't buy it and then have it cut to fit you.
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I can appreciate the concerns a retailer might have , but it's my feeling that some of these product ideas such as the db paddle are not suited to the masses , but rather should stay on the custom end of the market . Since the summer , I've had three different individuals wanting to help me get lined up with off-shore manufacturers . That's just not where I'm at . What , be like everybody else ? No thanks . I'm more than busy with custom orders locally and my personal career needs are being met with out thinking of mass production . Corporate sponsorship is on the near horizon and that alone is a big step for me , but should open up new opportunities and adventures . I've enjoyed working with individual customers to satisfy their needs to achieve higher levels of performance and dealing with the masses through retailers is a buzz kill for me . What retailers want is what CHINA can give them . Like it or not , production in the states is much more expensive than what comes from overseas . For a retailer , key stone pricing and a profit margin is out the door when considering a locally mass produced product such as this . And IF a locally mass produced carbon/epoxy db paddle were to be available and it's wholesale price WAS within a tolerable range , I would have to question how strong that production companies business health was to be able to weather the business storms that can kill companies and product lines . Again , I agree that there are retail concerns for the db paddle , but that only helps to strengthen it's value in the custom market . My two cents , - AX
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Really late to this party, but I finally got to try a friend's db Nitro in Hilo while visiting the in-laws. I also got to try it on a 17 Glide, which I've never even seen in person. So it was a great afternoon.
A 17' board, uh, Glides really well!
And the double bend shaft seems to work as mentioned in this thread. Pulling with the more ergonomic hand position is more comfortable. And the good feel is multiplied by the no-flutter leverage the double bend provides (see my hand drill analogy earlier).
My only dislike of the paddle was that the blade feels too small. With so much mechanical advantage over a straight shaft on the pull, I felt that I needed a much bigger blade. The pull felt like a car burning out; like the paddle was slipping through the water instead of grabbing. I felt like I had to hold back on the power or slow down the pull to get an efficient stroke.
But it was flatwater too. I know Takeo said he likes how this blade works in the wind.
The release and recovery need to be tweaked a bit because of the changed blade position, but that would take only a couple sessions or so, I'd think.
Now...How can I convince the wife? ;D ;D ;D
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So... I've been using my new double bend paddle for a few weeks now (Whickeyjack's "Deuce"). I'm using it for surfing, and it's been great for giving me power and getting me into the waves. I'm a girl - and not super strong - so extra power is very welcome. One thing I've noticed that’s kind of tricky is that I have to be sure the paddle is resting a certain way (on its side) across the board when I go to stand up ...if the shaft isn't resting flush against the board (how a straight shaft paddle always is), then I can't easily press against it when I pop back up - I'm not sure if I described that well enough? Anyway, it's no big deal, but there is an extra second to spin the paddle on its side before I stand up...sometimes a second is critical if you're trying to get the heck out of a sketchy spot before the next wave comes, but in general, it's no big deal at all.
Another observation...my forearms and wrists have been quite sore. I'm hoping that the new paddle angles are just bringing new muscles/tendons into play and that's why I'm sore. My wrists have been bothering me quite a bit though, and I'm not sure if it really is the good kind of sore - is it muscle development or am I doing damage? I wonder if something about my paddling technique is off and needs adjustment. Has anybody else experienced this?
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Takeo, curious to know... How much faster were you for your average (over what distance?) and max speeds with your bent paddle than a regular straight paddle. Providing either actual numbers or % increases would be great.
Argosi,
It's really hard for me to quantify the increase in speed since the conditions I paddle in change daily and I've only used the bent shaft 6 or 7 sessions so far. But just for example, average speed for a couple miles in small chop and light winds, usually into the wind, use to be about 4.0-4.2 mph with max speeds around 5.1-5.3, with the bent Nitro, average speed up to 4.7-5.4 and max speed 5.5 to 6.0.
I live on the windward side of the Big Island where there is no real flatwater. The bay gets sorta glassy here and there, but there's still currents to deal with. I can say that there is absolutely no flutter to the blade, which is probably attributed towards the Nitro design and the controllability of the bent shaft. The extra reach really adds power to the stroke. I switched back to my straight shaft yesterday and with a loose grip, it was fluttering all over the place, which meant more arm fatigue to control the fluttering. The Nitro bent shaft is much more forgiving, therefore, more effective for me anyway.
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I bought a Werner DB. I would come down on the side of these best being a custom order. I found the bend to be too far down for my reach. I tried it multiple times and conditions and no love. Sooo...
Fair warning, Don't try this at home!
...out comes the heat gun! I managed to get the handle off... barely. and then went to work on the blade end. Suffice it to say, carbon blades don't take heat well. I buggered it up nicely and destroyed the neck/ collar where it joins the tube. The carbon cloth de-lammed just south of the tube.
I've been around composites a bit and even had a scrap or two of carbon cloth laying around, I also had a piece of tube left over from a Werner Spanker I cut down. I lopped 8" off the top of the tube, sleeved it and rejoined it onto the bottom of the tube. This effectively brought the "bend" up the tube 8" closer to the handle. I mixed up some more epoxy, soaked the carbon cloth, jigged up the tube, handle and blade and was able to re-construct the joint and re- attach the blade to the tube.
I faired the joints that I laid up and gave them a shot of flat black out of a rattle can and voila! NOW, I dig the paddle!
I think eventually I'll order a custom, to my measurements with a Spanker blade. This'll do for now.
OBTW, I called Werner to ask about heating to disassemble and they told me not to do it. I'm just constitutionally incapable of leaving well enough alone! :D
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I surfed Hawaiian 6-8' Makaha yesterday ( Wed ) with my db paddle and was loving every minute of it . The morning started a bit smaller but we had an incoming swell that started to show by late morning and the winds during the morning were next to nothing . All that moving around and My wrist elbows and shoulders aint hurt'n . Db paddles rock . Board got a buckle though . Kudos to Adios for taking matters into his own hands and making his situation work . My db paddle profile has about a 9" sweet spot . Those Werners with the tighter bends have a smaller sweet spot and seem less tolerable to missizing .
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I bought a Werner DB. I would come down on the side of these best being a custom order. I found the bend to be too far down for my reach. I tried it multiple times and conditions and no love. Sooo...
Fair warning, Don't try this at home!
...out comes the heat gun! I managed to get the handle off... barely. and then went to work on the blade end. Suffice it to say, carbon blades don't take heat well. I buggered it up nicely and destroyed the neck/ collar where it joins the tube. The carbon cloth de-lammed just south of the tube.
I've been around composites a bit and even had a scrap or two of carbon cloth laying around, I also had a piece of tube left over from a Werner Spanker I cut down. I lopped 8" off the top of the tube, sleeved it and rejoined it onto the bottom of the tube. This effectively brought the "bend" up the tube 8" closer to the handle. I mixed up some more epoxy, soaked the carbon cloth, jigged up the tube, handle and blade and was able to re-construct the joint and re- attach the blade to the tube.
I faired the joints that I laid up and gave them a shot of flat black out of a rattle can and voila! NOW, I dig the paddle!
I think eventually I'll order a custom, to my measurements with a Spanker blade. This'll do for now.
OBTW, I called Werner to ask about heating to disassemble and they told me not to do it. I'm just constitutionally incapable of leaving well enough alone! :D
I bought a Werner bent shaft paddle and also found that the bend was too low for me. I think Werner misjudged the geometry when designing this paddle. Almost no one would be able to grip the shaft in the best place to take full advantage of the bend. You'd have to spread your hands apart way too wide.
I actually did an analysis of top paddlers (video frame grabs and photos) to see where they gripped their paddles with their lower hand. Most were pretty consistent at about 42% from the top of the paddle. I also like to grip at 42%. With my Werner paddle, I'd have to grip it at about 47% from the top of the paddle (further down the shaft) to take maximum advantage of the bend. That's about 4 inches difference in this case.
I think it's best to grip the bent shaft just above the apex of the bend. That way, you get the advantage of the more relaxed wrist angle and most of the advantage of the extended forward reach due to the bend.
While a custom bent shaft paddle would be best, Werner should just reposition the bend about 4 inches higher up the shaft. That would benefit the vast majority of paddlers.
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nichawaii.....
Do you have contact info? Maybe looking to have to do a db for me....
Thx...
Mark
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You can reach me at nlc@nativelivingcustums.com . Aloha
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"Almost no one would be able to grip the shaft in the best place to take full advantage of the bend. You'd have to spread your hands apart way too wide."
Maybe I'm a freak, but I'm the opposite. I grab my 85" Werner double bend paddle at the very bottom of the bend and wish it was a little lower. I guess where you grab the paddle is a personal choice, so maybe a custom paddle is the better choice if you know exactly where you grab the paddle.
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Picked up an 86" bent shaft fuse with my REI coupon. I normally use an 84" QB (no 84's avail from REI). Bend felt fine for me. I grab the top part of the bend. A LOT heavier than my qb elite. Not sure if there is an advantage or not for me.
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juandoe,
Can you give me a review of it once you take it out. I'm going between that and the QB elite. Did you go with the Fuse or Nitro size blade?
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"Almost no one would be able to grip the shaft in the best place to take full advantage of the bend. You'd have to spread your hands apart way too wide."
Maybe I'm a freak, but I'm the opposite. I grab my 85" Werner double bend paddle at the very bottom of the bend and wish it was a little lower. I guess where you grab the paddle is a personal choice, so maybe a custom paddle is the better choice if you know exactly where you grab the paddle.
Hey Robert, you may well be at the extreme in terms of having a super wide grip on your paddle.
Read the rest of this being forewarned of high geek content:
I sent an email to one of the Werner folks a while ago about the location of the bend in their double bend paddles. It included some stats on where some top paddlers like to grip their paddles. Based on a few top paddlers, it looked like that most of them liked to grip their paddles at between 40-44% from the top of the paddle (as a % of total paddle length). This came from looking at video frame grabs of paddlers when they were paddling fast on flat water (samples included multiple measurements from Danny Ching, Byron Kurt, and EJ Johnson). 42% was the average and most measurements were tightly clustered around 42%. Danny was consistently at 42%, Byron was a little narrower and EJ a little wider. I grip my paddle at 42% as well.
My Werner Nitro bent shaft paddle has the apex of the bend at 51% from the top of the paddle. If you want to maximize the advantages of the bend, it would be good to grip just narrower than the 51% apex - to have the more relaxed wrist angle yet keep most of the reach advantage generated by the bend. If you just want to maximize reach, then you'd grip at the 51% apex.
Robert, if you're gripping below the apex near the bottom on the bend, your hands must be incredibly wide apart or you've got really long arms. The other explanation is that your paddle has a different bend location than most of the other Werner paddles. I did notice that in one photo of Andy Bridge, R&D Director at Werner, he was gripping a prototype bent shaft paddle that had its bend apex at 43%. That would be ideal but the production models I've seen have the apex lower down.
I've attached a photo of Andy holding a prototype with the bend higher up and a photo of Steve Gates of Big Winds holding a production Werner bent shaft paddle with the bend lower down. If you look at the photo of Steve and see where the lower part of the bend is, you'll see that it's a LONG way down.
You can also see that because the bend is higher up, Andy grips the paddle at an ideal spot while Steve is not getting his hand low enough to take full advantage of the bend. You can also see that results in Andy getting more of a reach advantage than Steve.
Bottom line is that I think Werner should raise the bend! One option may be to buy a longer paddle than you need and then cut it down so that the bend is higher up the paddle when you grip it after cutting it down.
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Hi Argosi,
Thanks for explaining and taking the time to measure the grip percentages etc.
I actually think it's very interesting and important for Werner to get right. It's geeky too, of course but who cares?
I have the feeling that not all the Warner bent shaft paddles are exactly alike in terms of where the bend is so I want to measure my paddle tonight. I am curious exactly how you measure and arrive at your percentages. I'm assuming you measure the shaft length from the top of the handle to the top of the blade at the waterline.
Then you measure the length from the top hand to the center of the bottom hand and divide it by the shaft length to arrive to your 42% average grip spread?
Let me know if this is right and I'll let you know where my bend is and where I grip it.
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I've been wanting one of these paddle for ages but after trying one not long ago now I'm not so keen.. It felt too stiff.. too heavy and a bit clumbersome changing sides... I also think they need to alow you to cut the shaft from the blade end of the shaft as well as the handle end so you can get the bend in just the right spot.
DJ
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Nice points Argosi, and... the lower you place the bottom hand the better the mechanical advantage however you get less reach on the stroke.
So it would seem that the larger the paddle blade the lower the bottom hand needs to be and the smaller the paddle blade the higher up the bottom hand can be and the longer the reach you can get.
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Hi Argosi,
Thanks for explaining and taking the time to measure the grip percentages etc.
I actually think it's very interesting and important for Werner to get right. It's geeky too, of course but who cares?
I have the feeling that not all the Warner bent shaft paddles are exactly alike in terms of where the bend is so I want to measure my paddle tonight. I am curious exactly how you measure and arrive at your percentages. I'm assuming you measure the shaft length from the top of the handle to the top of the blade at the waterline.
Then you measure the length from the top hand to the center of the bottom hand and divide it by the shaft length to arrive to your 42% average grip spread?
Let me know if this is right and I'll let you know where my bend is and where I grip it.
Robert,
Here's how I calculated the grip %:
Grip % = Grip Distance / Paddle Length
Grip Distance: As you assumed, to measure grip distance, I measured from the top of the paddle to the center of the bottom hand where it gripped the shaft.
Paddle Length: To measure paddle length (denominator), I simplified things a bit and just measured total paddle length. It would've been ideal to measure to the the point where the shaft meets the blade but it was sometimes hard to mark that spot on the video frame grabs where you couldn't see the shape of the blade clearly.
Also can you measure the % where the bend apex is on your Werner paddle? By bend apex, I mean the point on the shaft where the bend changes direction approximately in the middle of the bend. On my paddle, the bend apex is at 51% from the top of the paddle. On Andy Bridge's prototype paddle, it's at 43%. Steve Gates' production paddle looks more like mine with a lower down bend. I'm guessing his is at about 50% like mine.
I'd guess that your paddle has a bend apex higher up the shaft - maybe close to 43% like Andy's paddle.
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I actually think it's very interesting and important for Werner to get right.
Agree fully. Werner should agree as well - assuming Werner wants its customers to take optimal advantage of their bent shaft paddle.
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I've been wanting one of these paddle for ages but after trying one not long ago now I'm not so keen.. It felt too stiff.. too heavy and a bit clumbersome changing sides... I also think they need to alow you to cut the shaft from the blade end of the shaft as well as the handle end so you can get the bend in just the right spot.
DJ
It takes quite a few sessions to get used to the paddle - especially changing sides. I'm just starting to get the hang of it after about about 10-12 sessions. Even with the bend not quite at the right place for me, the paddle does seem to give me more power per stroke. Flutter seems very low as well. I suppose I may have a tiny bit more reach but it's not that apparent for me since the bend is about 4" too low for me (this reduces the reach advantage).
The paddle is heavier than some others as you said.
I think it would be a great idea for Werner to sell these paddles with the blade and handle not glued on. That way we could customize where the bend is. I'd happily take that even if Werner said they couldn't warranty it since they didn't glue it.
Alternatively, Werner could sell long paddles with the bend occurring at different distances from the blade. The dealer or customer could then just cut off the top of the shaft and glue the handle on. Werner already carries several different SKUs for this paddle at different lengths so it wouldn't be much trouble for them administratively.
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Argosi,
Here is a picture of my double bend. Like I said I grip it towards the bottom of the bend. So where is my bend in relation to yours?
Warner does not allow dealers to sell paddles unglued as some of the epoxies regularly used don't work well with the ABS handles, I guess.
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Argosi,
I just did the measurements on my paddle:
The total paddle length is 85". The range of where you can grip the bend at a good angle is 27" to 36" grip distance (top of paddle to middle of lower hand).
My grip is right around 36"= 42%. I guess that makes me "average".
I would prefer being able to grab it a little lower at times.
So, probably 42% would be a good placement for the apex of the bend. This is good information and I'll pass it on to Werner.
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Argosi,
I just did the measurements on my paddle:
The total paddle length is 85". The range of where you can grip the bend at a good angle is 27" to 36" grip distance (top of paddle to middle of lower hand).
My grip is right around 36"= 42%. I guess that makes me "average".
I would prefer being able to grab it a little lower at times.
So, probably 42% would be a good placement for the apex of the bend. This is good information and I'll pass it on to Werner.
My usable "sweet spot" on my paddle after my own mods runs from about 27" to 34" . The apex is at 36. My .02
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I misunderstood what you meant by apex. I think for me, I would want the middle of the "sweet spot" at 42% of the paddle length, that way I could grab it lower for going upwind/ extra power or a little higher for more reach.
The Warner blade is pretty long and narrow, so for a shorter, wider blade the measurements would be different.
Pantalones, what is your total paddle length?
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I misunderstood what you meant by apex. I think for me, I would want the middle of the "sweet spot" at 42% of the paddle length, that way I could grab it lower for going upwind/ extra power or a little higher for more reach.
The Warner blade is pretty long and narrow, so for a shorter, wider blade the measurements would be different.
Pantalones, what is your total paddle length?
Paddle is @ 80" overall.( I'm 70" tall) It's fine on my regular board but on the racer I think I'd like 2 more inches. When I order my custom, I think I'll order 82" with a spanker blade.
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The Werner Bent Shaft paddles have an 18 inch long gripping area which gives you a wide variety of gripping width options. We feel the bent is in the right spot for the most part but we will monitor this site and feedback we get to consider future options. The paddles are cut at both the blade and handle end depending on the size it is here at the factory and glued in a jig that insures blade shaft and grip alignment. The fact that we don't sell paddles in pieces for home assembly is a Werner thing and we choose to do it this way so we can offer a warranty on our products. This feedback is awesome and we welcome it to help us inprove our products.
The bent shaft option is only offered on the Fuse and the Nitro blades. The bent shaft option is not offered with the Spanker blade. We did this because the bent shaft was made to work in relation to a 7 degree blade offset angle instead of a 12 degree like the Spanker.
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Hey River,
Good to know you guys are watching/listening.
Had several great sea kayak paddles years ago, kept me in your fold when it was time to buy SUP.
Keep it up.
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For anyone interested in double bend paddles, we just received a shipment of Werner bents in various sizes at Blue Planet Surf Shop on Ward Ave.
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The Double Bend Paddle INVASION of Northern Texas has begun ......(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c337/apnix/DBinvasionoftexas.jpg)
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Have you gotten to try a double bend paddle with a detachable blade system ? I've had some prototypes floating around for most of this last year and it is time to take this development project online and make it a little more visible . The benefits of a detachable blade are that for a fraction of the cost of a new stick , you can make your paddle perform completely different with a different sized or contoured blade . You can change the length of your paddle by adding a blade that's longer or shorter . As conditions change , you can change your blade to match . For the manufacturer , if there should be a warranty issue , they simply replace the part and not the whole paddle . By removing the blade , you reduce the shipping size as well . For instance , from Hawaii to Italy , I was quoted over $450 by UPS , and the post office wouldn't even ship something that size . But by removing the blade the length makes the box small enough to make an express shipment to Texas under $40 and actually the same price thru the post office to Sardinia Italy - go figure !
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c337/apnix/DSC02096.jpg)
The weight for this system is relatively the same as a fixed blade design . It works out that the material required to laminate a blade onto a shaft is the same as the carbon , brass , and stainless used in the detachable system .(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c337/apnix/DSC02117.jpg)
As for the strength , I'll do the Pepsi challenge with anybody else's detachable blade system . In a year we haven't had one failure , not even a tick , click or crack - not off shore or in the surf .
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c337/apnix/DSC02088.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c337/apnix/DSC02089.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c337/apnix/DSC02086.jpg)
If FEDEX keeps up their end of the bargain , their should be three of these for viewing and sampling at the New York race on 8/20/11 . As always , Aloha from Hawaii - Ax
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Wow, that detachable blade is pretty impressive! I'm thinking about getting a double bend as I've been getting some pain in my shoulder and numbness in my hands (old shoulder injury/wear and tear from my OC6 days years ago) not to mention tennis elbow, and reading thru these threads, seems like the double bend might be the way to go in the near future. Nlchawaii, you got a shop here on Oahu?
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Xero , I'm a worker drone of the shop variety . No store and no retail at this time . PM me if you'd like to talk . - Ax
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Oops , My mistake . On 8/20 there with be a few of these paddles at THE Paddle for Humanity race in DC not in New York .... My mistake . fyi