Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Gear Talk => Topic started by: photosettle on January 28, 2008, 10:03:54 PM
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Curious if anyone has had their boards in hot climates and had problems with delaminations. Since I have a PSH board, I'd be especially curious what Blaine has to say about this. Infinity seems to think it is necessary.
http://www.infinitysurfboard.com/order-standup-paddle-board.htm
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Have had my 9'6" for almost a year, keep it on the roof of the truck, no bag, on the weekends and its held up beautifully. Looks brand new still. That reminds me of the ole school epoxy windsurf boards with the vent plugs.. I think the technology is different but Blane for sure would be a good one to supply an answer.
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We used to put vents in all our boards. The reason you have vents in Epoxy glassed boards with EPS foam is the problems with gassing. Gassing happens because the chemicals in the epoxy expand and contract in heat and cold.
The foam we used to use was terrible and the vents were needed. If you put a little ding in the board you'd pick up a gallon of water within the course of a session. We would actually drain the water from the vent! To top it off we used spackle to seal the blank before lamination. As foam got better fused we would only use the vent to let the gas escape during hot weather. In the meantime I left my vents in and my boards in my van in the sun. I noticed I had zero problems with heat and gassing with the vents closed tight.
Now the EPS foam is so good we don't even use the vents. Here's the problem with vents. If you have the type you screw in and out our customers will eventually leave it out and go surf. With good foam its no big deal but still, you will have wet foam to some extent. If we put in the self venting ones you don't know if they are venting or not. Wax, debris etc can clog it. I even had one that failed and leaked into the foam... It delamed right around the vent.
No vents with good foam is the way to go. Get a ding? Dry it out first and fix it like you're supposed to and all is good. Foam is much better these days so we don't even spackle before laminating. Finish the board well while shaping and the resin bonds to the foam very well, IF you are using good foam...
Aloha,
Blane
www.paddlesurfhawaii.com
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No vents with good foam is the way to go. Get a ding? Dry it out first and fix it like you're supposed to and all is good. Foam is much better these days so we don't even spackle before laminating. Finish the board well while shaping and the resin bonds to the foam very well, IF you are using good foam...
Aloha,
Blane
www.paddlesurfhawaii.com
This is the way to go. The reason pionerring shapers were having problems wasnt the foam, it was the glassers. When you spackle a board, you're just filling in voids. You need to clean up sand it after spackle to get most of it back off. Most likely what was happening were big areas heavy spackled with very little bonding going on between the foam and fiberglass.
The vent is just something that puts the blame onto someone else. If it blows up, then the plug was left in. Its really something that has to change with the glass shops.
I leave my boards on top of my for days at a time, and I havent had anything blow up. Ive also left them in my car in 90+ heat outside. Thats not me, thats just glassers who know the EPS epoxy racket. Some have it down, some are still working out the kinks (the old poly mindset doesnt lend itself well to the epoxy business, but try find epoxy only glass shops in SoCal that are taking on new shapers... rough go)
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This is the way to go. The reason Steve was having problems wasnt the foam, it was the glassers. When you spackle a board, you're just filling in voids. You need to clean up sand it after spackle to get most of it back off. Most likely what was happening were big areas heavy spackled with very little bonding going on between the foam and fiberglass.
The vent is just something that puts the blame onto someone else. If it blows up, then the plug was left in. Its really something that has to change with the glass shops.
I leave my boards on top of my for days at a time, and I havent had anything blow up. Ive also left them in my car in 90+ heat outside. Thats not me, thats just glassers who know the EPS epoxy racket. Steve works with some of them, but ding as much volume as he does, he works with alot of shops. Soem have it down, some are still working out the kinks (the old poly mindset doesnt lend itself well to the epoxy business, but try find epoxy only glass shops in SoCal that are taking on new shapers... rough go)
What he said. Ha ha! Howzit Allan! Spackle is not good on big boards. I been there, done that and I had my share of delams. The vent won't stop delams either if the foam is not fused well or the glassers did not prepare the foam good. I had my share a bad glassing too! I have not had any delams with good foam and no spackle and I too leave my boards baking in the sun. Not saying it can't happen but so far nothing. I will say this... If you keep surfing with open dings then a delam is a sure thing waiting to happen.... If you have a bad spackle job on a big board and get a ding a delam will happen much faster even with good foam.
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Just about every sailboard manufacturer uses vent plugs on their EPS/Epoxy boards and has done so for years.
With standup boards having up to twice the volume of the average windsurfing shortboard, the vent should be even more important.
Granted, many people just leave their vents closed all the time, but you can have a lot of pressure building up inside the board on a hot day.
Quoting from www.boardlady.com:
"And speaking of vent plugs: opening yours whenever you are off the water is the single most effective thing you can do to prolong the life of your board. Leaving it closed will cause the EPS foam core to expand and contract at least once a day. You take any substance, no matter how stout, and you push and pull it continually, at least 365 times a year, and it will fail. Guaranteed!
It's not that much, you say? I just measured my Trusty Old 9'-4": typical summer day, near sea level, early morning, cool 60 degrees, it was 4 15/16" thick. Then the day warmed to 89 degrees, a thermal low developed, and the board expanded to 5 3/16". That is a whopping 1/4" change, or 5%!!"
BTW - Boardlady.com is a really great website filled with lots of photos and info on epoxy construction methods and repair techniques. Check out this miracle repair! http://www.boardlady.com/5224.htm
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Boardlady is an amazing resource for folks looking for information pertaining to the repair and construction of a technique 10-15 years old. What they didnt have then that they do now is higher pentane foam. The foam is remarkably different now than it was.
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Nobody I know abuses their boards like I do. Day in and day out my boards cook in my car with direct sun. I do it on purpose. I have boards a year old that still have not had any problems with delam. Same scenario with the lesser quality foam and in a matter of a couple months with vents we had delams.
Vents are not needed if done right. In my best Forrest Gump voice... "That's all I gots ta say about that."
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Blane shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....
let em keep thinking that...
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Mine has also sat on the racks at work for 9 hours at a time in direct sun many times with absolutley no problem... Hawaii sun... Its a clear, unpolished finish if that matters. Not that I want to subject it to such abuse but no choice... I did notice the stringer was a little more pronounced but hey, its a very well used board by now.... : ) Now my new pretty little yellow 8'6" I try to be a little more protective of... ;D At least until I order another one... although I cant imagine what I'd want to try.
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I once heard that these vent were necessary if the board is going on airplane transport..Something about the pressure within the cargo space.
Also that the boards are designed to resist pressure from the outside..Not from within..and the construction is very weak from that direction.
DJ
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Both my PSH were flown over no problem.
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EPS foam comes in various densities , bead sizes and there's other variables. 1lb foam will be more sensitive to heat expansion and water intrusion, whereas 2lb is usually worry free and 1.5 in the middle. The better 1.5 EPS is probably worry free if glassed properly. If you have a 1lb core and had any water intrusion it would be a good idea to open a vent if it's going to get too hot or you'll be risking a possible delam. Usually you'll find 1lb in most production and sandwiched boards and 1.5 and 2 in non-sandwiched customs, it will have a stringer instead.
This brings up another question. Any thoughts on how the different constructions compare when paddling thru chop, riding waves and so forth? Does stiffness, flex or feel of one or the other play a better role in sensitivity to balancing in chop or in riding a wave? I notice the comments on how stable some custom boards are. Is a sandwiched board too stiff along the rail making it more sensitive to chop and more likely to buck you off?
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My 12' Ron House has no vent. I left it sitting in the sun, deck side up, for a couple of hours on a 90+ degree day at the beach last summer. The board got so hot the hydroturf pad bubbled up in several places.
I poked holes in the bubbles and went on my way. When I went to patch up the holes later, I checked the deck underneath and no delam.
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Heave is correct.
If you are using a low density EPS core, then you usually need some sort of sandwich (for strength) and a vent (so the core can breathe).
If you are using a higher density foam core, then the sandwich/vent isn't always necessary.
Windsurfing went through a phase (early 90's?) building epoxy boards with extruded foam (SVF) cores and no vents.
The EPS sandwich boards proved to be stronger and lighter, so today (thanks to Cobra) this construction dominates the windsurfing market.
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SVF was real heavy foam but waterproof. No vent and no ding worries. There's lighter extruded foams around and they are also waterproof. Gary Young uses it(pink foam)in his bamboo veneer boards. The sandwich EPS sailboards still tend to crack at the rail as that's where most of the stiffness, strength and load is. A stronger core will help bear the loads and have a different feel. This is especially noticed in a sailboard. The current industry standard sailboard construction might be light and strong but IMO they ride like a bouncy hollow drum because the core is so weak and the rails are really stiff. It's something most have gotten used to after all these years because the initial reduced weight feeling was so dominating.
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You have to remember that sailboards are working with different design issues, must be as light as possible and must be as strong as possible. Everyone wants to go fast and jump high. People learnt to jump high before they learnt to not land flat.
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Any word on the Goretex air vents--they seem like a simple solution.
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I've left my Angulo and Foote molded boards on my truck for 9 hours in the blazing Hawaiian sun on several occasions with no problems whatsoever.
I've also left my hand glassed PSH boards up there as well. Again, no problem. I don't think vents are needed.
Is anyone reporting problems except Infinity?
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Im telling you, its the glassers in SoCal. They are still suck in a poly mentality. Epoxy is a completely different animal and needs to be approached, handled and worked completely differnet
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A newer 1 lb density molded sandwiched board without any water intrusion should be fine unless it gets over around 160 degrees. Then the EPS will melt. Water intrusion is the thing to watch out for with 1lb EPS and as boards get older and used alot there's more wear and tear. It's a good good idea to check the board from time to time for possible leaks. There's a reason why used windsurf boards are so cheap. The bottoms also get softer and bouncier as the core gets all fractured up from the jumps. They still work as long as long as it's in one piece or doesn't have a big delam bubble on the bottom. A light colored board won't get too hot in the sun, but it could get much hotter inside a boardbag.
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Allan, "Way, I know that Dude"
We are glassing Epoxies now and have not needed vent plugs. We are using White Hot Foam (thanks Blane for the recommendation) and 1.5 foam we have glassed using 6oz glass as well as Volan and things are holding up quite well. Contact Alan Beels at 619 990-5432 in Sorrento Valley Also check my website under repairs. We had one pre-vent Infinity blow-up, but the owner greatly abused that board.
BOB
www.missionsurf.com
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I had a Walden with a vent delam on me, then a Channel Islands with no vent delam on me. I think it's all in the glassing.
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just wondered if this information has changed much since jan 2008
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Speaking from a backyard shaper, not a China Board Manufacturer, 1.0 lb EPS, typically the lightest of the densities, is lightest due to the air spaces between the beads. Even the "quality" foam has enough pukas that if it's not sealed with a spackle or epoxy/micro ballon mix, you'll get a dry laminate when you glass it. It gets dry due to the fact that the open bead spaces suck up resin, so what happens is you need additional resin during the glassing process to counter this to prevent a dry lam. Problem is, it adds weight and defeats the purpose of using 1 lb EPS. If you spackle or miroballon, you fill the open voids and add little weight. If your vacuuming, the dry lam issue is even more exasperated if you don't spackle. Some claim the bond is jeopardized when you spackle with the epoxy systems, but it's worked for us.
With the 1.5 lb EPS and up, you can get by without spackle. At least this is the way I'm doing it, and most of the guys on Swaylocks. The Chinese might be doing it different.
As far as the vents, here in Texas we're venting the 1 lb EPS boards because the air can definitely move throught the blank because of the open bead structure, I'm not so sure the air moves as well through the higher densities to warrant vents.
My buddy's been using the gortex vents and after 18 months everything looks good. I'm getting ready to build a 14' race board with 1 lb EPS and it will be spackled and it will have vents.
Mahalo,
David