Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Downwind and Racing => Topic started by: bbarry on May 02, 2010, 08:16:37 AM
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Just wondering what kind of speeds folks are getting for an hour or longer. In theory a 12'6" should be able to get around 5.3 mph assuming a 12' waterline. I recently got a GPS, and yesterday was the first time I have paddled in light/variable wind conditions, fresh water lake, with the meter running. Just by chance I was out for an hour.
I am 59 and weigh 150. I have a Starboard Pin and the distance was 4.7 miles for 59.5 minutes. Wakes, very slight breezes, etc., all robbed speed quickly. I found that a minimal light breeze on the nose (less than 5 mph) cost around 45 seconds per mile. The GPS also showed that I am around 45 seconds per mile faster on right paddle than left paddle, probably because of years of surfing/windsurfing abuse leaving my favored right shoulder a bit worn and less flexible - so just not as much power on the overhand left side stroke.
Kind of in the same line of thought, are the newer higher volume 12'6" boards faster? Rockers seem to be getting flatter which should increase speed. The listed volume of the Pin is around 215 liters vs the Slice or newer Hobies which are around 275 and I quess in theory, a floatier board should be easier to drive to speed. Tough question as it has to be from the perspective of an individual paddler on different boards - way too many variables comparing one paddler to another in different environments.
Thanks for the consideration.
Bruce in Seattle
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Hey Bruce....
I did a local race yesterday in Bellingham and I paddled a 12'3" board made by a local shaper. Ever inch of this board is in the water and it has a very kayak like bow. I was chasing my friend who was on my 14'. I GPS'd the course at 5.23 miles, and I averaged 5.2mph and it took me 1:00:25.
My buddy on my 14' beat me by 1:25ish.
I owned the Pin for awhile and didn't think it was very fast, although a great cruiser.
Hope this helps, although like you said... tons of variables.
http://soundrowers.org/results/whatcom2010.htm (http://soundrowers.org/results/whatcom2010.htm)
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Both of you are going plenty fast. The hull speed limit for a 12'6" is indeed 5.3 MPH if you use 1.5 as the constant in the formula v=1.5* square root of the length, assuming no planing on swells, and you won't get much past that unless the hull is very narrow. Power to weight ratios, fitness, and technique accounts for all the rest. GD you were pretty much right at the limit for the board. Probably felt like it too. A 14' hull should go 5.6 kt, which is near enough to 5.6 MPH. The finer the entry and the narrower the hull, the less the hull speed limits boat speed. Longer boards have two factors in their favor--higher hull speed and less of a limit from hull speed since the waterline length (LWL) to beam ratio is higher for a similar width.
All this goes away in wind and swells. Connor Baxter did the Maui to Molokai in 3:40. Maui Canoe and Kayak Club calls the distance 23 nautical miles but most competitors say the real route is 27 miles. Assuming that's right it's 8.4 MPH for 27 miles or 6.8 if it's 23. Dave Kalama and Junya McGurn did the distance in and OC-2 at 2:33 which is 11.5 MPH.
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You are right Bill... I couldn't have paddled any faster... I'd put my head down and paddle as hard as I could for 2 or 3 minutes to try to close the gap... but nothing doing. That board was at it's max, at least with me paddling.
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hey love to get some feedback on our NEW 12'-6" Racer. This race board package including bamboo veneer, fins, deck pad, leash, bag, and paddle will retail in late May for less than $1k. Our first vacuum bagged Bamboo boards. Besides adding a great new look, the Bamboo layer increases tensile strength along the main axis of the board. Need one of you "Pros" to Race it? Love some feed back.
video here:
Jimmy Styks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwEgkm25ebg#)
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SUPdawg... great looking board... got any pics of the hull/bottom?
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I have a pin and would say my times are about the same as yours. Sustaining over 5 takes a helluva lot of effort. I doubt I could do it over an hour. Usually, we have a 5 - 15 mph breeze and I do about 7 miles. Avg around 4 mph all around. This is at 80 % max effort. 190 pounds on the Classic pin. Flat, freshwater.
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I like the woodpecker!!Why don't you sport me one for this years race season..
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Here's a couple of pics of a new Aussie made 12'6" flatwater race board.
DJ
(http://www.australianpaddlesurfer.com.au/Photos/DC12-6-1.jpg)
(http://www.australianpaddlesurfer.com.au/Photos/DC12-6-3.jpg)
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Interesting how everyone is figuring out nose entry at the same time. Back in the 1900's when steam yachts were first starting to seriously race, the waterline length limit was still an issue since they didn't have enough power to plane. The solution was penetrating bows that would punch through the bow wave without lifting the nose. Still took too much power, planing hulls can go faster, but for what they had to work with it gave speeds in excess of the displacement limit. They looked like these noses.
No, I don't remember it personally. The first racing boat I was aware of was Miss Bardahl, which was quite a bit faster.
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in many of my pictures of paddles on pins during races, many seem to stand further back on the deck raising the nose thus the whole purpose of the board - the kayak style bow, out of the water leaving them with a planning hull like a regular sup. so pushing water instead of cutting through it. note your trim on the board.
r
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Great looking board DJ. Is this another board in your quiver? I would be interested to know how this performs versus Jonathans SurfRace. Cheers.
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Great looking board DJ. Is this another board in your quiver? I would be interested to know how this performs versus Jonathans SurfRace. Cheers.
No.. It's not mine.. btw I did take some great pictures today of Jonathan's new SurfRace board.. and also a vid.. I'll try and post them soon.
DJ
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Thanks DJ. I look forward to seeing the photos and Vid. Have you had a play on the SurfRace yourself?
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Thanks DJ. I look forward to seeing the photos and Vid. Have you had a play on the SurfRace yourself?
I paddled the SurfRace yesterday and took heaps of pics.. and I also did a vid walking around the board on the beach.. I don't think its as fast as the Javelin on flat water but the boards are in a different class.. It also felt more stable than the Javelin.
I'll post my pics and vid soon.
BTW.. We did a good down-winder today and Jonathan used his new Starboard 12'6" SurfRace.. Pete was first to the end on his Naish 14 Glide and Jonathan was right behind him.. I was a couple of minutes behind them on my Naish 14 Glide.. Jonathan and I were very even for most of the down wind run which took about an hour to complete.. The wind was marginal at 15-20 knots and in the lulls I found the Naish hard work and in the gusts I was flying.. I think Jonathan beating me was more due to his fitness after training on Maui for the past few weeks but there's no doubt that the surf race is a fast board.
DJ
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Can't wait to see DavidJohn's full report on the surfRace! I think the idea of perfecting a 12'6" to go fast in lots of conditions from flat to open ocean is very appealing to alot of SUP owners.
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Here's a couple of pics of a new Aussie made 12'6" flatwater race board.
DJ
Those DC boards look fast and with nice paint/graphics. Also the Lahuikai boards have cool looking paint schemes.
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We just did a MAX SPEED test of the Starboard Surf Race & Free Race as well as the Jimmy Lewis Slice.
Results: Surf Race & Free Race = 7.3 mph, JL Slice = 6.9 mph
The Surf Race remains at higher speeds for longer periods, with the Free Race close behind.
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How did you perform these tests? Just with the same paddler over timed distances? GPS?
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We used a Garmin foretrex 201GPS. Dead flat conditions, no current inside a bay with two similar paddlers switching back and forth taking multiple runs along the same route. Rod was able hit 7.3 mph 2 out of 3 passes on the Surf Race and I was able to hit 7.0 mph 2 out of 3 passes. My previous best on the JL Slice was 6.7 mph, Rod hit 6.9 mph. Rod also hit 7.3 mph 1 time out of 3 passes with the Free Race. It was clear which board can be brought up to max speed fastest, what is not clear is how overall stability will play out over varied conditions. More news on this after our race this coming weekend.
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so exactly what is the defintion of "sustained"?? Just curious as to how long (in seconds) your GPS is averaging the "sustained" speed over time, most GPS systems are tagging and locking top or max speed, but that is different from avg speed. Is the top sustained speed marked over distance, time or a combo of the two? and what are those variables?
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avg speed is what matters in a race. you can have a top speed of 7 or 8 and still come in last.
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avg speed is what matters in a race. you can have a top speed of 7 or 8 and still come in last.
I agree 100%! Sustained/average speed is what counts most. Max speed counts most when you are sprinting to the finish line!
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BWDave and I did a morning recreational paddle a couple of days ago. I was on the Starboard Surf Race and Dave was on the Starboard Pin. Not a race, just a brisk early morning paddle, calm conditions.
Distance 6.42 miles, average speed 4.53 mph, easily maintained speed including grabbing a drink and chatting all the way. The Surf Race doesn't 'feel' fast because it pushes a bit of water but is impressively easy to maintain good speeds on.
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The Surf Race doesn't 'feel' fast because it pushes a bit of water but is impressively easy to maintain good speeds on.
Agree 110% Jonathan.
When I paddled the New the sustained glide was very noticable especially when when changing sides paddling. On the Pin you could feel the loss of glide/speed when changing, but on the New that loss of glide/speed was not as apparent.
I really think this board (the New) gets its glide from its tail design because the bow does seem to push more water than a slicing bow design. All I can think of is if maybe the board would be too unstable if it had a pointed bow and tail?
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Hey Marksride:
Can you rate the stability of the 3 boards you tested? I have been on the slice and got slowed down in sidechop because of stability issues. If I purchase a surf race or free race I wouldn't want it to be less stable than a slice.
Thanks.
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Hey Marksride:
Can you rate the stability of the 3 boards you tested? I have been on the slice and got slowed down in sidechop because of stability issues. If I purchase a surf race or free race I wouldn't want it to be less stable than a slice.
Thanks.
For stability (scale 10 most stable - 1 least) I would rate the Free Race - 9. Slice - 8. Surf Race - 6. The Free Race 29" should be stable up to 180lbs, above that I would switch to the 31" version. The Slice just takes a little more getting used to with it's rounded rails, but is very stable when powered up. The Surf Race is much more sensitive in side swell/wind and requires more focus, but it's fast. Hope this helps.
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Hmmm. Not what I was hoping for on the stability of the Surf Race. I was hoping for a tad bit more stability than the Jimmy but it's understandable at 26". Thanks.
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I can concur on the stability challenges on the SurfRace in side swell. I had a shocker doing a attempted downwinder - the wind switch round from a NW to an ENE and had me battling to stay on for 13km. I can't blame it all on the board as that was my first time out on the SurfRace and I was fatigued from a 2hr swim training session a few hours before. What it highlighted for me was a need to improve my balance overall. I still think I will get a SurfRace as when I had a try in calmer conditions it was amazing - picked up the smallest runners.