Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Downwind and Racing => Topic started by: paddledaddy on April 26, 2010, 07:09:03 AM
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This post may actually belong in the technique category, but I thought I would get more help here. Anyway, I recently purchased a Starboard K15 and while it is faster than other boards I have paddled I have been having a hard time controling the baord with its sharp nose and tail and rounded bottom when the wind is 10 - 15 mph or greater. I am fine straight into the wind and swell or with the wind and swell but I have a hard time controling the direction of the board when I am more than say 15 degrees off of dead center into the wind and I also have a heard time controling the direction of the board when I am on small wind swell.
I am a pretty solid intermediate SUPer. I have been SUPing since StandUp Zone began and am really only limited now by my crapy fitness level. I can handle other boards much better in these situations including the the Naish Glide 12, DW Garage board alot like a Naish 14, and the Starboard 12'2" x26.
Are there any general guidelines about handling boards with rounded bottoms and sharp noses and tails that may help me handle the K15 better?
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Hey... here are some "best guesses" to what might be going on... you may already know this stuff. Race style boards with low-rocker a lot of times have hard rails that go farther up the board than a DW or surf board. This makes them steer more like kayaks than surf boards. I.e: opposite. To turn the board right, you weight the opposite rail... very counter-intuitive at first. So if the wind is hitting you from the right, the board will want to get pushed left, so I weight the left rail to help counter-act that. Race boards with the "piercing bow" catch a lot of side wind up there and get pushed around a lot.
I have only paddled the K15 in dead calm conditions, so can't directly relate... but one of the 14 foot boards I have been paddling is very similar. Hope this helps.
Hopefully Easy Rider will chime in... he's paddled that board a bit I think.
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Lucky it's not a K14.. ;D .. btw.. Is it a wobble problem or a steering/tracking problem?
If it's anything like the Starboard Pin it's also hard work on a runner unless you keep it going straight.. and run into the back of the wave in front.. rather than turn across and surf it like a wave.
My friend Jonathan has just got a new K15 so when he gets back from Hawaii I'll try and have a go of it and see what you mean.. I'm sure he won't mind swapping with my Jav for a while.. :)
DJ
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It's not a wobble problem, more of a tracking problem. I feel like I am fighting the board to gain control all the time. Into the wind it wants to track straight in the direction it wants to go, with the wind it's not dead set on a direction, I just can't seem to create any resistance against the fin to control the direction it chooses. I was testing different boards this Saturday and the other boards I mentioned could be controlled like a surfboard on the windswell but the K15 doesn't respond that way. Still it is much faster and I think once I get the hang of it I will enjoy it.
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I only have a layman's notion of how shapes work, but I've noticed that most good downwind or racing boards take a lot of time to learn. I think when you go after speed you sacrifice the simple "push this edge down and it turns that way" kind of control. I still don't have a complete idea of how my Foote Maliko 14 works, sometimes it seems to have a mind of it's own. I can get it to go in the general direction I want , but the little tweaks escape me--rarely does the same thing twice. The Penetrator would be worse, but it's got a rudder. My F18 is a planing hull, so it pretty much behaves itself, but it's a lot of work, and it's only fast when the swells are huge.
Still, this might help. It seems to me that as you move forward on the board, where the rails are softer and the waterline wider, that pressing on a rail makes it turn the opposite way. That is, when you press on the right rail the board turns left. Turns are slow and sometimes rail pressure doesn't seem to do anything. As you move to the back and get the nose up, the boards switches to normal control: press right, go right. The turns are quicker and the the board seems more responsive.
When I need to be forward on the board I do most of my steering with the paddle. I'm pretty comfortable with it's wandering ways. In a crosswind it's OK because I can get further forward and stroke hard, using a draw to keep the board headed correctly. When I catch a bump I zip to the tail and surf the board. Magic.
I know this sounds like a pain in the a$$, but it's a very rewarding board to ride. Reminds me of a spirited horse. You don't want to put your Mom on it, but it's a lot of fun. When I see someone like Jeremy riding a Footie I see how the board CAN be ridden. If he's having any control problems I can't detect them.
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Thanks all. I did try leaning the opposite rail but I didn't think about that being used with weight forward and then the opposite when weight back. Also I tried to trim the nose for speed on swells but it sounds like I may need to get my weight back even further if I want to steer better. Next time, I'll be a bit more drastic in my moving forward and back and expect a little less control overall.
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I typically ride well forward in the board and lean on the non-paddle side rail to try and keep straight. I find I have to do this with the Pin as well.
I would suggest riding well forward of the middle. It looks a little strange coming from a regular board.
http://www.star-board-sup.com/2010/products/boards/board_k15.php (http://www.star-board-sup.com/2010/products/boards/board_k15.php)
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I have a k15 and agree that it is very fast, especially on flat water. I find that the board needs to be trimmed out correctly to really fly. I stand a bit forward when it's flat and then slowly move back depending on the conditions. It doesn't react like a surf board when you sink one of the rails. It handles more like a kayak. You do need to weight the opposite rail a little. I changed the fin on the board to the Curtis hatchet style fin. It works great and has more lateral surface area than the stock one. In the wind I find that the rails of the board are much higher than other boards. This gives some slight handling issues you need to over compensate for. That means sometimes a lot more paddling on e one side vs the other. Hope some of that helps a little. The more you use it, the more it all become pretty natural. You don't have to even think about it after a while.
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As others have said - the K15 is more Kayak than surfboard. Lean left to go right, etc.
I too have had to figure out 'the dance' - moving WAY forward in windy conditions has helped me.
I also agree with the use of the Curtis "hatchet" race fin.
Much more surface area.
Keep trying - it is a great board.
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Thanks for all the input. I will also check into the curtis hatchet race fin. My K-15 has a small fin box, I think newer ones come with a regular size fin box. I hope the Curtis fin will fit the smaller box. I have been using a 9.75"Greenough 4a which completely fills the box and adds some more stability than the original foil fin. I also wonder how it would respond with some kind of small fin in the center box that is on mine? I guess I have some experimetning to do.
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I have the short fin box as well. The curtis is too long. May be able to cut it down and redrill it. It would be close though. I have one I am going to try it on but haven't had the time. I was able to shoehorn a Rainbow Patterson bamboo
http://rainbowfins.bizeconnect.com/?mainURL=/store/item/31ggi/Chuck_Patterson_SUP_fins/CWP_10_0_Race_Bamboo.html (http://rainbowfins.bizeconnect.com/?mainURL=/store/item/31ggi/Chuck_Patterson_SUP_fins/CWP_10_0_Race_Bamboo.html)
in there but I had to Dremel the corners off the front.
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I cut my Curtis hatchet fin down and drilled a new hole for the screw. It works great on my k 15. I would also recommend the g-10 version of the fin. I just got one the other day, and it is quite a bit stiffer than normal model. The only problem is double the $. I use that on a bunch of my boards for flat water use.
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I don't really see the reason for the stiffer fin. With a 70 cm fin at 25 knots and an 11m sail flying a formula board, I get it. At 5 mph with minimal lateral load and a 10cm moment arm, I don't see where the stiffness is gonna be noticeable. Of course, I am on flat water and not cruising down wave faces. All I want is some lateral resistance and the least drag. I also don't understand what advantage the foil gives you at all in my conditions. I am pretty sure I have never gained any lift from the fin. Even coming down a wave, what's the biggest wave a K15 sees and how much does it load up the fin?
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Who is talking about lift???????????? The Regular Curtis fin is a little soft and flexes laterally a little bit. The more expensive g10 material makes the shape very stiff. This can only help in every way, from stability....to less paddle strokes per side. Don,t know were lift was ever thought of. Goodluck with your windsurfing
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Actually all fins generate lift, it's how they work. Seems kind of weird, but it's so. Even unfoiled ones do when they are angled to the direction of travel. that doesn't mean they lift the tail up out of the water, it means they generate a force perpendicular to the direction of travel. When the fin is straight in the water the forces are more or less equal on both sides. When the fin is angled the forces are unbalanced and resulting force pushes the fin to the side, correcting the angle.
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Who is talking about lift???????????? The Regular Curtis fin is a little soft and flexes laterally a little bit. The more expensive g10 material makes the shape very stiff. This can only help in every way, from stability....to less paddle strokes per side. Don,t know were lift was ever thought of. Goodluck with your windsurfing
Simply pontificating. Less foil would likely mean less drag. How do you notice the "softness" or "stiffness" in the fin? Can you feel it with each stroke, bottom turns off of waves? I know I can't feel the fin flexing back there when I am traveling in a straight line.
Starboard had some statement about their new racing fins and how they were going to be bamboo as the composite fins were too stiff. They have changed the page now so I can't reference it.
One area where the G10 may be better is in the actual foil. I am not sure how they make the polyester fins but I could see how they would be harder to shape in a rigorous fashion.
I haven't tried the g10 version but the polyester one seems to work ok for me. So far, I have yet to find a fin that was significantly better than any other in my flatwater conditions. In my conditions, I think the priorities are 1. surface area, 2. drag, 3. weight.
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Actually all fins generate lift, it's how they work. Seems kind of weird, but it's so. Even unfoiled ones do when they are angled to the direction of travel. that doesn't mean they lift the tail up out of the water, it means they generate a force perpendicular to the direction of travel. When the fin is straight in the water the forces are more or less equal on both sides. When the fin is angled the forces are unbalanced and resulting force pushes the fin to the side, correcting the angle.
Good point. I would be interested in trying a razor thin, minimally foiled fin (just to smooth out the turbulence). I suspect a large part of the benefit of the foil is simply adding rigidity along the long axis. With a short aspect ratio fin like the Curtis, you could get away with less foil. I thought about buying one of those 3d printers and giving it a go but they are too small to make a decent sized fin.
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Another interesting tidbit
check out the fin on Brandi Baksic's board in December
http://www.star-board-sup.com/2010/news/read.php?threadid=6751 (http://www.star-board-sup.com/2010/news/read.php?threadid=6751)
Can't tell which fin is in this pic
http://www.star-board-sup.com/2010/news/read.php?threadid=6853 (http://www.star-board-sup.com/2010/news/read.php?threadid=6853)
That might be a G10.
Easy Rider has a polyester stuck in a New on this thread.
http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=7134.0 (http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=7134.0)
I asked him for his opinion on that one.
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Thanks again for all the suggestions. I had the K-15 out again last night and felt very much in control by moving further forward. I get it now. The bow (thats what it is in this case) needs to be down in the water to guide the direction the board is headed and by leaning the bow it realy does change direction for me. (Lean right to go left.) I'm no longer trying to change direction using the fin or the rails. Later, while hosing the board off I noticed for the first time that the widest point of the K-15 is really well back of center but the floatation is forward of center. So you are pulling the back end along with you as you steer the front.
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Seems to be a factor with Starboards that you really need to get forward of the "designated" part of the pad to get speed up in flat water. I got a Point as a really good deal, and found that the steering setup was almost 2/3 of the way back on the board. This is a good stance for big downwinders maybe, but not great for flatwater distance. I removed the rudder, arm, and cables, and installed a standard fin box directly behind the rudder post shaft. I now stand completely forward of the padded "waffle" part of the pad, and really noticed a difference. While the Point is not designed specifically for flatwater, it is super light and moves quickly, also very stable with the recessed deck. I can still re-rig the rudder if I ever do get down to the ocean!