Standup Zone Forum

Stand Up Paddle => Technique => Topic started by: Boludo on February 21, 2010, 02:10:32 PM

Title: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: Boludo on February 21, 2010, 02:10:32 PM
Well we've been hit with some pretty good winter swells for southern california and there have been a few waves that have taken me down under water for longer periods time than I'm used to.  I know to just relax, not fight it, and wait till the wave is pretty much gone then come up for air.  I figure there has got to be some good exercises for staying under water for longer periods of time.  I know the big wave surfers have got to be done for long periods of time.  So what's the secret?
Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: PonoBill on February 21, 2010, 07:16:03 PM
Article here. I'm up to three minutes on the couch, two while driving--and you thought cell phones were dangerous:

http://www.kenalu.com/2008/03/22/learning-to-not-breathe/ (http://www.kenalu.com/2008/03/22/learning-to-not-breathe/)

And the last paragraph of this:

http://www.kenalu.com/2009/02/12/sams-magic-handle/#comments (http://www.kenalu.com/2009/02/12/sams-magic-handle/#comments)

Apparently I never wrote an article on the breath-holding technique I briefly explained here. I'll have to fix that. It's pretty good. I suspect I wound up writing it here on the zone and never redid it.

Here's one zone thread--mostly about holding breath while driving. http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=5007.0 (http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=5007.0)

And another: http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=2982.0 (http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=2982.0)

The last one has a pretty good explanation of my 'Houdini" technique. I call it that because I'm approaching Houdini's record


Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: Rockbottom on February 22, 2010, 04:13:15 AM
how about wearing a pfd?  Apparantly most SUPers are against them, but in surf that big when being pushed past your breath holding comfort level, it does beg the question.
It's no guarantee, and there are arguments for and against them, but it's hard to imagine either being held down, or just separated from your board and wanting less floatation.
Flame on!

Gordon
Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: JC50 on February 22, 2010, 07:58:13 AM
No secret, just training.

Relaxation is key. Holding breath for long periods mainly desensitizes the CO2 chemoreceptors that trigger the urgency/desire to breath. Training to be relaxed in "turbulent" situations pays better dividends. There is a real danger in breathhold training in water without assistance; Shallow Water Blackout. SWB kills, so if your serious about training, ensure you fully understand SWB and find somebody to train with - always. Plenty of resources on SWB without repeating here.

I'm not much of a fan of static breathhold training, since when you need it you are never in a static environment. However, it is a start to building confidence so it isn't useless and a good adjunct to relaxation training. Plus, if you pass out you just fall down and don't drown. ;D

Join a freediving club or underwater hockey, or underwater rugby. All sports that require timing, finesse,  and efficiency underwater while holding breath. And, they're fun to do.

And though obvious, cardiovascular training increases efficiency significantly too while achieving other benefits.
Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: PonoBill on February 22, 2010, 09:08:35 AM
Good response JC. Learning to do a deep clearing breath instead of a shallow one isn't quite the same as hypoxic training, but it's all a bit dangerous.
Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: Takeo on February 22, 2010, 11:54:12 AM
Great advice JB.  I've been an avid spearfisherman and have seen too many divers in the last few years die from SWB.   Like PonoBill, I use to practice breath hold while lying on my bed.  Although it doesn't mimic being held under by a wave, it did help me increase my breath hold times.  What really helps is being comfortable in the ocean.  The more relaxed I am, the better I am able to hold my breath underwater.  I also found that doing a few breath holds before entering the ocean, stretched out my lungs for a better and longer breath hold. 
Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: Boludo on February 22, 2010, 03:01:42 PM
Hey guys.  This is great info!!!  Thanks a bunch for taking the time to respond.  I'm going to take all this in (while holding my breath ;D).

Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: linter on February 23, 2010, 01:54:53 AM
Speaking of being more relaxed in the ocean -- specifically in turbulence and white water -- how does one going about doing that?  I still tense up and freak out in any type of rag doll situation.  I believe it's some sort of residual psychological whimwham from when I nearly drowned while surfing as a kid some 40 years ago.  Stupid but true.  Hey -- I'm sensitive like that!   :P  :P Suggestions?  (And SUPer Dave if you don't have nothing nice to say don't say nothing t'all!  :D :D :D)
Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: log man on February 23, 2010, 02:42:05 AM
Ah Mr. Linter, come in and take a seat , I don't think it's Psychological WhimWham at all,  and I don't think it's the early childhood near drowning incident. in my professional opinion I think the cause of all this unpleasantness stems from your difficult forceps delivery. Now tell me about your relationship with your...............................That will be $300 thank you ;D
Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: linter on February 23, 2010, 03:30:52 AM
ah ha, that explains those marks all over my head since birth.  :o freaking doctors!!  but thanks for the revelation.  'splains lotz!
Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: SUPer Dave on February 23, 2010, 03:55:21 AM
Shit shit shit..Eric...
Im reading your post and about to jump all over you with a  good sarcastic joke....But you stoped me in my tracks....DAMN...
All i think about are the guys in really big wave places really gettin pounded...its all about relaxin...and practice..and repetition...
believe me youll get better at taking a beating...
Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: JC50 on February 23, 2010, 06:43:44 AM
Speaking of being more relaxed in the ocean -- specifically in turbulence and white water -- how does one going about doing that?  I still tense up and freak out in any type of rag doll situation.

Start out small and work up slowly.

Actual rag-doll situations are rare and limited to waves well over 10'. If you really have that fear then don't worry your body will never let you get within sight of waves like that for now. Big waves have a way of cutting through to your core and triggering an extreme reluctance to go near that shit.

IMO, great way to train for comfort in waves is to spend time in them. Maybe take up body surfing or boogie boarding. This will get you used to being in the soup without concern of a big board or paddle, plus it's great exercise and a cool way to understand waves better. For wipeouts get into reaction-habit of curling into fetal position, covering up head with hands, relaxing, and riding it out. After some time, practice, and repetition wipouts even become fun!  What other activity can you get tossed in turbulence and come up unscathed and laughing?

As kids we used to hit the local laundromat and see who would last the longest in the big dryer.... that shit was stupid and dangerous; wiping out in waves is fun and relatively safe!

The best rides are usually result of dropping late and making the critical drops. To get there, the take-off's are often a make it or crash situation. Only way to be on that lineup is to not be concerned with crashing. So comfort with wipeouts will open many doors and increase your fun surfing.

Good luck, start small, work up. By hurricane season you'll be ready to take on some size!
Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: Takeo on February 23, 2010, 10:17:45 AM
When I'm out diving and have to come in through some surf, I just look at it as more fun!! As the wave crashes on me and throws me around, I relax, hold my speargun infront of my face, and go for the ride, cheeehoooo!  Staying as relaxed as possible helps me have well enough air, of course these aren't 20 foot sets. I find that times where my friends have gotten into trouble was when they panicked, or was very apprehensive. 

Know your limits and what you are comfortable with.  Respect the ocean, but at the same time, get to know her and you'll have a blast!
Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: Boludo on February 23, 2010, 02:07:15 PM
Thanks again for the comments on this thread.  I was out a few times while the surf was around 7 feet which I didn't think was too bad but when I got taken down by a wave, it seemed that I was being pulled by a powered boat underwater.  I wasn't too worried because I knew that the wave would eventually let up but caught me by surprise a bit.  With 5 footers, it was nothing but that extra couple feet in wave size, made a big difference in power (I can't imagine you guys hitting these 10-20 footers).  One thing I have always been very good about is just relaxing as the wave takes me for a ride.  I think I just need to work on holding my breath for longer periods of time.  Right now I only can hold my breath for about 1 min. 15 sec. to 1 min 30 sec. and that's sitting on a chair doing nothing.  I understand my weekness and am gonna work on it a bit. 
Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: Piros on February 23, 2010, 03:39:18 PM
Article here. I'm up to three minutes on the couch, two while driving--and you thought cell phones were dangerous:


Great thread with some excellent feed back , thanks for the info.

Rob

P.S Pretty funny Bill :D
Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: JC50 on February 23, 2010, 03:49:33 PM
Right now I only can hold my breath for about 1 min. 15 sec. to 1 min 30 sec. and that's sitting on a chair doing nothing.  I understand my weekness and am gonna work on it a bit. 

BTW, as far as I know, infamous two wave hold downs at places like Peahi or Mavericks actually only last about 25-35 seconds.
Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: Boludo on February 23, 2010, 05:18:56 PM
wow that's interesting.  I would have guessed it to be much longer.  I think it's the preparation before going under.  Sometimes you get a surprise dunk into the water and 10 seconds feels like a minute.
Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: PonoBill on February 23, 2010, 07:03:28 PM
the biggest problem I have is that I tend to hold my breath a lot while I'm riding a wave--a very bad habit. I've taken to being vocal while I ride to combat that, so if you hear me muttering or even yelling instructions to myself when I go by, please don't conclude I'm a couple forks short of a place setting.
Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: Jared K. on February 23, 2010, 07:36:15 PM
Now that my A-hole housemate has been forcing me to go surf Waimea, I figured out a wonderful new technique for feeling more comfortable in heavy water:  Go out, sit too deep, or too inside, or just take off on a stupid one right off the bat and get beat down on your first wave.  That way you know how bad the beatings will be that session, and all the apprehension and butterflies get out of your system.  Plus I get fired up and surf better when I'm trying to get that "redemption wave".  Another little thing I do is play a song in my head when I'm getting held down.  There was a really cool slow song that was in a quicksilver video, ironically during some cool underwater shots.  If I know it's gonna be a legit beating, I think about that song in my head and take in the turbulent view.   ::)

One last point:  I was watching the Eddie this year from a friends house and we were counting the rider's hold down times... even the bad ones still only looked like they were about 15 seconds or less.  I'm sure there were worse, I didn't see everything, but it helps put things in perspective for me. 

Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: PonoBill on February 23, 2010, 07:59:40 PM
A typical holdown is for one wave--give a 15 second period for a lot of big waves that's a 15 second holdown if you make it to the surface just as the next one drops on you. Given that the center of the 15 second wavelength has a low amount of energy, you can usually get to the surface. A two wave holdown is almost always 15-20 seconds. No one wants to talk about three wave hold downs, though certainly nothing prevents the waves from doing that to you.

The problem is rarely the duration--the problem is how much reserve you had when you started being pounded, and what you've been doing while you're helpless in the washing machine. If you try to swim for the top a little too soon you're likely to expend a lot of oxygen in fruitless thrashing. And the fact that this doesn't bring you to the surface yields a lot more fruitless thrashing.
Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: JC50 on February 23, 2010, 08:19:03 PM
the biggest problem I have is that I tend to hold my breath a lot while I'm riding a wave--a very bad habit. I've taken to being vocal while I ride to combat that, so if you hear me muttering or even yelling instructions to myself when I go by, please don't conclude I'm a couple forks short of a place setting.

LOL! That's how I play Ice Hockey; "I hold my breath while I sprint to the backcheck, then I hold my breath while I sprint up on a forecheck, then I hold my breath while I dig in the corner, then I hold my breath while I bolt over there..." Hockey is just a succession of sprints, and I seem to hold my breath all over the place, it's no wonder I'm smoked after a 1:30-2:00 shift. :D

I imagine it's not much different in monster waves. Dig like hell to get in the wave, then dig further at the lip to keep from getting blown out the back, then pop fast as you can, then focus everything you've got for the drop, then compress and extend all you got at the bottom, then WHAM, it just closed out on your head and punched you 15-20' deep while you try to remember what was behind the wave you took, and all that energy you just blasted through is starving to suck down some O2. Hope you remembered to breath before digging for that wave...
Title: Re: Holding breath for longer period of time..techniques?
Post by: linter on February 24, 2010, 03:00:21 AM
Yeah, it's not the first wave, it's the second.  Or else it's just getting caught in the impact zone, so while you might not have to deal w/ even a 2-wave hold down, you're stuck thrashing around taking wave after on the noggin, or getting sucked over the falls, or have no wherewithall left to dive for the bottom, bla bla bla bla.
   Come on, Dave, I know you've got something to say, so say it already!!!! :-*



A typical holdown is for one wave--give a 15 second period for a lot of big waves that's a 15 second holdown if you make it to the surface just as the next one drops on you. Given that the center of the 15 second wavelength has a low amount of energy, you can usually get to the surface. A two wave holdown is almost always 15-20 seconds. No one wants to talk about three wave hold downs, though certainly nothing prevents the waves from doing that to you.

The problem is rarely the duration--the problem is how much reserve you had when you started being pounded, and what you've been doing while you're helpless in the washing machine. If you try to swim for the top a little too soon you're likely to expend a lot of oxygen in fruitless thrashing. And the fact that this doesn't bring you to the surface yields a lot more fruitless thrashing.
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