Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => SUP General => Topic started by: Admin on December 01, 2009, 06:49:43 PM
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About a month ago we were approached by Dave Kalama with an idea for an article. The concept was to outline some of the tensions that have resulted from the integration of our sport into the existing surf lineups and into the surf culture on Maui. This has been (and is) an ongoing process. Interviews have been conducted and more will come. One goal of this project, as proposed by Dave and backed by top pro SUPers on Maui, was a group of self-regulations for our growing sport. That portion of the project has reached completion and we have been asked to publish the following:
Because of the rising tensions between surfers and SUP surfers on Maui, we felt that it was our responsibility to create a set of rules that will be used to self-regulate our usage.
1. At Ho’okipa we will be adopting the existing regulations as they apply to windsurfing and will follow the 10 man rule as it is currently posted on the DLNR signs. Even if you do have the opportunity (by the 10 man rule) to go out at the Ho’okipa area it is necessary that every individual take a very critical look at their own skill level and accurately estimate their own personal level of acceptance in the lineup.
2. We will not be using Honolua Bay when there is any surf breaking. The only exception would be when the surf is so large that there are no surfers out.
3. We will not use Paukukalo, Mala Wharf, or Dumps when these areas are being used by any surfers. The only exception at these spots will be when no surfers are in the water (the Zero man rule).
4. At Lower Kanaha, beginners will be asked to stay in the area below the canoe hale, past the end of the inside right or on the Paia side past the channel of the main break (a map will follow).
As we need some time to spread the word, we are setting Jan. 1 as an effective date for the above.
Dave Kalama
Laird Hamilton
Archie Kalepa
Robbie Naish
Buzzy Kerbox
Scott Trudon
Loch Eggers
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this is all fine and good. if this is what maui needs to make it work , great. im hoping my gut feeling that these are the seeds that others will try to take and use for justification to 'regulate' in other places is wrong. keep it on the valley isle. best wishes, aloha.
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Ooof.
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"it is necessary that every individual take a very critical look at their own skill level and accurately estimate their own personal level of acceptance in the lineup."
This seems to be the unwritten rule on Oahu. Hope it stays that way. It would be a bummer if it came to what you guys are doing on Maui.
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sup bucket list:
bali
peru
maui
nebraska
......
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Wow - is it really so bad that steps like this need to be taken?
My only experience of something similar was introducing snowboarding to ski areas in the early 80's.
Some resorts would look at my brother an I like we were from another planet - but once we showed them that we had control, and were able to police our selves it was acceptance.
A few areas did attempt to limit snowboarders to certain areas / runs on the mountain. However once the numbers began increasing it was impossible to stop us and we soon were allowed on all runs.
Granted there are commercial interests at stake in snowboarding (resort owners want lift ticket monies), but to me this seems like a slight step backwards for SUP.
Personally - I feel as the stand up numbers continue to increase, acceptance will happen weather the rest of the world wants it to or not.
My 2˘.
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What does the others side do? zip
The way I see it
surfers 1
supers 0
Don't come over here with these give ups. I don't see supers as the problem. I see human nature at it worst as the problem and you just gave up the ship to a bunch of pirates. For those of you who are the accepted Shame on you. Who will be the first to leave the water when 11 are out? No bay if it is breaking - you got to be kidding me. You just gave up surfing rights of others that were not yours to give. Hope you don't suffer to much from this as I know your intent is in your mind for peace and harmony.
I feel the same way Linter does. But I have been to paradise when it was still paradise.
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The guys who signed are all pretty strongly tied financially to the SUP industry
(Excepting Archie i guess).....so they should clearly want this sport to flourish.
Seems quite reasonable to leave a few spots like Honolua alone....
Most important, this is an attempt at SELF-REGULATION.....better that, than the alternative (DLNR etc.)
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...to me this seems like a slight step backwards for SUP...
I am not a resident of island therefore do not know all the dynamics involved. However I believe that sometimes you need to take a step back in the short run to ensure progress in the long run.
SUP took the ocean on very, very quickly and is not showing any signs of slowing down, quite the opposite still. It has created rifts both real and fabricated. There is truth that a SUP can deliver the inexperienced to an advanced lineup much easier than a traditional board (short or long) which can create bad situations. Also true that an accomplished SUP'r can share that same lineup without a fuss, and often even improve the situation (ie: communicating the sets).
Perhaps things are currently bad enough that above measures would be a good thing to strive for peaceful coexistence in the long run. After time those restrictions will likely relax and maybe those involved will look back and agree it was a good move. Only time will reveal.
If you were not a surfer before SUP I'm sure this is harder to stomach, but I don't mean to sound condescending most SUP'rs I meet are very perceptive, intelligent professionals who research the etiquette before charging into established lineups. Not 30 minutes ago I had conversation with non-SUP'r (not a hater) neighbor asking why I often paddle far down the beach to surf rather than share the better breaks. Guess I just still feel like paying it forward. I'm not sure if it'll ever be universally accepted, just look at the rift between short and longboarders....
Anyway, hope things work out for you all, I'm sure eventually things will become more peaceful and coexistent.
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SUP took the ocean on very, very quickly and is not showing any signs of slowing down, quite the opposite still. It has created rifts both real and fabricated.
Exactly what snowboarding did to the ski industry.
The Ski industry fought / ignored / looked down upon snowboarding for years.
It is only in the very recent past have they begun to acknowledge that in fact snowboarding has saved the ski industry.
Same deal here - As stand up brings more people to the water it will also bring more people to help "save the oceans" - even though the majority of SUP people in the very near future will be paddling no where near an ocean.
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I've kept pretty quiet on this so far but dont want the misconception out there that Maui is having huge negative issues with SUP's. There are a few "hot" spots that have always been "hot" spots whether short boarding, longboarding, kiting, windsurfing.. heck I dont even like to drive through Hookipa or Mala in my truck.. lots of punks and drunks...
Most spots are just fine.
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Those people have my respect as a SUP as a surfer and as a person. They have looked past their own interests have seen a problem and have taken action to do the right thing. They get it.
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Randy, Dave, et al,
Good work guys. I've got no problem with any of this. In fact I advocate even stricter self-regulating at Lower Kanaha, but I'll keep my trap shut b/c I know it only fans the flames of hate and protest. Plus, I freely admit my own hypocrisy. I can't wait to drop in on a few choice waves there myself. But unlike other SUPers I've seen, you won't see me dropping in on people, going for *every* wave, flailing my board around by the end of its leash, or paddling perpendicular across the paths of surfers. The place has become a zoo, especially on nice days. I view the effort to self regulate more of an exercise in common courtesy and safety consciousness. It comes at a time when more and more SUPs are continuing infiltrate lineups all over Maui (i.e., more beginners). At some point, someone has to man up and be "the bigger person" otherwise anarchy and chaos ensues. It's not the same as throwing in the towel and giving up your rights. The way I'm reading this, these are merely guidelines. If you don't like it, go ahead and do your own thing, just be prepared to deal with the consequences.
Aloha,
// Gary
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The issue that Maui now faces (assuming this intiative gains traction) is where does it stop? This started off as an animated discussion about Ho’okipa and has now added more than a few spots. What happens when you can no longer surf your SUP anywhere? Lucky you got Maliko! But there has to be a better solution . . .
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We're dealing with a different beast here. Surf lineups on Maui have already been under pressure from steadily increasing crowds over the years. Now a whole new demographic is showing up and they're arriving up in large numbers. That is, standup surfers who never considered surfing before. They haven't gone through the process of paying their dues, getting to know the different breaks with their various nuances and cultures. One day they're not there and the next day 5 more people you've never seen before are there with everyone competing for a limited number of waves and not everyone as competent as you would hope to see. This new population is adding to the pressure and there's no signs of it letting up. In fact it seems to be growing at an exponential rate. At some point things are going to boil over.
The expert watermen who have taken the time to consider this problem are showing they have foresight to look ahead and imagine what might happen if this trend of increasing tensions continues to build.
They're offering a few best practice rules we can all choose to follow (or ignore at our own peril). IMO, this is a lesser of two evils choice and I'm all for it. Like outcast said, if the County ever steps in and regulates SUP, then we're no longer dealing with guidelines but laws and that's a much harder knot to untie.
Aloha,
// Gary
The issue that Maui now faces (assuming this intiative gains traction) is where does it stop? This started off as an animated discussion about Ho’okipa and has now added more than a few spots. What happens when you can no longer surf your SUP anywhere? Lucky you got Maliko! But there has to be a better solution . . .
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This is good. It is all about self regulation. Hopefully we can approach people in a nice way, and with good intentions in mind.
Take an average day at Hookipa, the lineup is so packed I wouldn't want to go there anyhow. We've got to understand that our boards are not shortboards, and that it has the potential to inflict a lot more damage. Combine that with many SUP'ers that aren't as versed in wave riding, and you'll have the potential for a huge conflict. The lineup at Hookipa is aggro enough without SUP'ers there...if we don't self regulate someone will do it for us, and I really do not think it will be the DLNR.
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My 2 pesos....I think the real problems come with the number of SUPs on a break with traditional surfers. If there are more than three SUPs on a break and there are not a lot of waves per set, each individual SUPer may not be hogging the waves, but as a group may be getting 90% of the waves.
I personally try to never SUP a break with more than 2 or 3 other SUPs; it just ain't fair. With this in mind, maybe try to limit the number on SUPs on any given break and this could be self regulated. I.E, if you're one of the first three out and another SUP comes out, you tell him to go in and wait until one of you comes out.
Here in San Diego, I don't think it would work to regulate by location, one reason is that a break can very widely from one swell to another swell. One spot may be small all Summer long, but a good NW Winter swell will bring it to life while other spots are better in the Summer and don't work during the Winter.
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I think noworrieshawaii is right on the money. There are lots of friendly sup surfers on Maui who are courteous, share waves, and are out there to have fun.
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While it pains me a bit to see Kanaha on the list (one of my favorite SUP sessions ever was in the area that is to be off limits to beginners, and I still consider myself a beginner) I still think this is a positive step. I don't think this sets a precedent for the future and allows us to be pushed off other breaks...quite the opposite...it strengthens the argument that we have already sacrificed for the good of others and deserve the right to be at other spots.
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"I don't think this sets a precedent for the future and allows us to be pushed off other breaks...quite the opposite...it strengthens the argument that we have already sacrificed for the good of others and deserve the right to be at other spots."
If those guys are giving up there own breaks that is a big move for them to take and shows leadership. Give respect get respect.
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The main problem on Maui is the lack of decent surf spots.. Oahu has spots that are the equivalent to Hookipa and are just spots that are rarely surfed..As a friend told me once if hookipa was on the N.Shore it wouldn't have a name.. Don't get me wrong Hookipa has it's moments. Personally I have no desire to surf Hookipa out of respect of the hoards of Maui short boarders who unfortunately is all they have on this side. If I want to surf Hookipa I will prone surf it I'll go down to Kanaha and surf the lesser spot, but in no way will I go surf some crappy close out so beginners on longboards can have the better wave...
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Bill, I heard the same thing. I think it was Charlie Smith who told me that. He should know. I heard he was the man at Haleiwa back in the day.
I hear what you're saying about not yielding choice breaks to beginners. Somewhere a balance has to be struck because at the same time, I don't want my longboard sesh destroyed by a bunch of inconsiderate SUP wavehogs and beginners who are a danger to themselves and others. I'm sure you don't either. I'm no Joel Tudor, but I don't have to be. i'm competent, and I've coexisted peacefully at places like Ho'okipa and Kanaha for years. Times, they are a changin'!
Aloha!
// Gary
The main problem on Maui is the lack of decent surf spots.. Oahu has spots that are the equivalent to Hookipa and are just spots that are rarely surfed..As a friend told me once if hookipa was on the N.Shore it wouldn't have a name.. Don't get me wrong Hookipa has it's moments. Personally I have no desire to surf Hookipa out of respect of the hoards of Maui short boarders who unfortunately is all they have on this side. If I want to surf Hookipa I will prone surf it I'll go down to Kanaha and surf the lesser spot, but in no way will I go surf some crappy close out so beginners on longboards can have the better wave...
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I think it's important for us SUP'ers to try and self-regulate, because we all know what happens when the government gets involved..no one is usually happy with the outcome :(.
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Hey, this seems like a great idea! While you are at it, do you think you could get all the guys on the long boards out of the water too.........? Heck, what about the bodyboarders as well.....? And while your at it, see if you can get anyone who wasn't born on Maui out of the lineups too......
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"Hey, this seems like a great idea! While you are at it, do you think you could get all the guys on the long boards out of the water too.........? Heck, what about the bodyboarders as well.....? And while your at it, see if you can get anyone who wasn't born on Maui out of the lineups too......"
On Maui most sups respect surfers and bodyboarders. We want them to have there waves. You sound like you are against surfers an bodyboarders. The guys on this list get it because they are top guys from all sports. Archie is water saftey. They want what s best and also this is what leaders do.
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It seems like the Maui gang is trying to lay down some basic guidelines for some of the crowded areas, which is a good idea. Its their turf, they should be able to do what they want.
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Wow...what a bummer just reading all this. Hookipa has been under tremendous strain because over the last few years alot of surfers seem to have shown up at the Island. Every year I've gone back I can't believe how many people are in the lineup. A ton of them aren't tourist or real locals so I'll let you fill in the blank about how they're making a living out there.
There's already been a host of incidents between surfers and windsurfers at this spot. I remember seeing some windsurfers getting ticketed because there were still surfers out. It was blowing 20-25 kts. You've got to be kidding me!!! The surf was total junk for surfing and I had gotten out of the water an hour ago. Everything about that situation was wrong.
It all seems well and good however my biggest beef and its a big one is what about the longboards. I've always been a shortboarder and guess what, when more then 3 longboarders show up, my wave count goes way down. Not to mention, my 8'10" SUP is shorter then a long board, so I don't know about the hazard in the lineup theory/hypothisis.
So how do you decide who has the skills to be out there or not? If it's big and they made it out...well I'd say they belong out there.
Listen, we are facing the same thing here even in Florida. But I think the SUP'ers have made a decision that it's just not right to paddle out in a pack of shortboarders. On one hand I guess we could let this work out naturally just like the revival of longboards but I guess they are trying to do the right thing but man it just really bums me out. I'm with one author, next winter I'm off to Peru. I bet the Tourism Board will love that. Let's see mainlander spending money on the economy or vagabound living under a bridge surfing everyday at Hookipa?
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From the perspective of a surfer,Mahalo to you guys for the guidelines.Education is more important in the long run.The top guys that every one looks up to,and tries to emulate, must speak out publicly,post videos,to educate the newcomers,many of whom are young,and therefore be made aware of etiquette,and the value of sharing .Shapers,and manufacturers,and dealers also have a responsibility to educate their customers.Selling your boards and telling your customers to go learn at Launiupoko is WRONG.Local families take their kids there to learn to surf,it's a great place for the keikis.Now it's down right hazardous.Kanaha is another issue.Kooks go out there all the time,and do not belong there when it gets big,whether on a longboard,or stand up paddle.The stand up paddler is just more dangerous because of the size of the board+length of leash.However most people's ego will not let them think of themselves as a kook,so therefore they will paddle out.(Had a few yesterday and today)So education is the key IMO.Education,and passing along the value of FUN,FRIENDSHIP,SHARING.Regardless of what we choose to have fun with on a particular day.Share the road,share the ocean.A spot like Kanaha,more than one person can surf the wave.And it is not MY wave,or YOUR wave.When you let someone go on a wave that you could have taken,you created more good will,more Aloha,and that person will remember ,and do the same at some other time.Lastly,as a stand up paddler,when you decide to go out at a particular surfing spot,be mindful that you are,NO MATTER YOUR ABILITIES AND SKILL,viewed as a pain,not on a level playing field,we can't wait for you to go in,grab a surfboard,and come back with the power of your two hands,unless you are one of the guys who stand up because your shoulders are shot.ALOHA
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Lastly,as a stand up paddler,when you decide to go out at a particular surfing spot,be mindful that you are,NO MATTER YOUR ABILITIES AND SKILL,viewed as a pain,not on a level playing field,we can't wait for you to go in,grab a surfboard,and come back with the power of your two hands,unless you are one of the guys who stand up because your shoulders are shot.ALOHA
Lastly,as a LONGBOARDER, when you decide to go out at a particular surfing spot,be mindful that you are, NO MATTER YOUR ABILITIES AND SKILL,viewed as a pain,not on a level playing field,we can't wait for you to go in,grab a SHORT surfboard,and come back with the power of your two hands,unless you are one of the guys who LONGBOARD because your shoulders are shot.
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Lastly,as a stand up paddler,when you decide to go out at a particular surfing spot,be mindful that you are,NO MATTER YOUR ABILITIES AND SKILL,viewed as a pain,not on a level playing field,we can't wait for you to go in,grab a surfboard,and come back with the power of your two hands,unless you are one of the guys who stand up because your shoulders are shot.ALOHA
Lastly,as a LONGBOARDER, when you decide to go out at a particular surfing spot,be mindful that you are, NO MATTER YOUR ABILITIES AND SKILL,viewed as a pain,not on a level playing field,we can't wait for you to go in,grab a SHORT surfboard,and come back with the power of your two hands,unless you are one of the guys who LONGBOARD because your shoulders are shot.
Or should it be:
Lastly,as a SHORTBOARDER, when you decide to go out at a particular surfing spot,be mindful that you are, NO MATTER YOUR ABILITIES AND SKILL,viewed as a pain,not on a level playing field,we can't wait for you to go in,grab YOUR SWIM FINS, and come back AND BODYSURF,unless you are one of the guys who SHORTBOARD because you can not swim.
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While it pains me a bit to see Kanaha on the list (one of my favorite SUP sessions ever was in the area that is to be off limits to beginners, and I still consider myself a beginner) I still think this is a positive step. I don't think this sets a precedent for the future and allows us to be pushed off other breaks...quite the opposite...it strengthens the argument that we have already sacrificed for the good of others and deserve the right to be at other spots.
I think its sets the precedent for a very slippery slope.
Corran
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This will all blow over in a few years... ::) In the meantime be thankful we don't have "pro's" around here telling us where and when we can ride... Oh wait a minute we do, only they sure aren't "pros".... ;D
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This will all blow over in a few years... ::) In the meantime be thankful we don't have "pro's" around here telling us where and when we can ride... Oh wait a minute we do, only they sure aren't "pros".... ;D
But isn't it the pros that have the moral authority, you know like Tiger? ;D
Come on, you knew somebody was going to say it. :D
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This will all blow over in a few years... ::) In the meantime be thankful we don't have "pro's" around here telling us where and when we can ride... Oh wait a minute we do, only they sure aren't "pros".... ;D
But isn't it the pros that have the moral authority, you know like Tiger? ;D
Come on, you knew somebody was going to say it. :D
That's so lame. If you disagree with the message that's one thing, but the personal attack is disrespectful and uncool. Noone who knows anything about these guys would make that comment. On Maui, they have the surf and SUP communities complete respect and THEY deserve it.
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Whatever, I guess I know nothing and you are right. Let's just say no sups on Maui period unless you are sponsored or famous... Give me a break! ::) I know all about the surf industry and how it works Chan. Not to worry because there are plenty other spots /Islands where anyone can ride whatever they want without someone complaining about it. Not a personal attack either just an opinion...
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I was a "pro" kayaker for two decades - 3 world championship medals, Olympics, yadda yadda yadda... one thing I abhorred when I was a pro was sitting in a lineup with other pros who somehow felt they had some kind of a special access right, or special privileges because of who and what they were. Whether that was cutting in line, getting more rides or any other kind of special treatment. It drove me nuts. If anything, I took the stand that BECAUSE we're the pro's we should be GIVING UP more than our fair share, letting others get more, giving up and coming (or rank beginners) the benefit of the doubt when there was a conflict (potential drop in equivalent).
Now, if a beginner or intermediate was somewhere where they should not be - say a very dangerous section of whitewater with deadly falls etc, I'd try to talk them out of being there and using some judgement, but in the end its their call, not mine. Also as a one time pro snowboarder, my attitude extended into that realm too - give the newbies and up and comings a break, a helping hand and a push. Ok,sure we need to educate idiots, or scold inconsiderate bullies, but other than this we should extend an open hand to those who are there to enjoy the water with us regardless of their skill (in this activity - you know that "fat, bald, kook on that longboard might just be the surgeon you're wife is going to need to see in 6 months when she gets something, or the mechanic who finally fixes that thing in your car cos you're a ripping surfer but a crappy mechanic, or the computer geek that finally figures out how to protect you from viruses that have been plaguing you, but can't surf to save his life even if he loves it - just cos they are a beginner or so in the surf does not mean they have not paid their dues in some other realm where you suck and are a kook).
But at a spot where beginners and pros can co-exist (like many many breaks) I was (and still am) of the decided opinion that it was US, THE PRO'S that should give way. This "I've earned it" attitude is bull in my humble opinion.
I can just imagine Tiger Woods acting up on the golf course the way some surfing pro's and wanna be pro's act in the lineup - he'd be an international laughing stock.
Corran
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I agree with coran. These guys get it. They give up there waves they could use whenever. They are cool to all guys in the lineup and they dont have to be. More guys need to step up like this other places.
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Thanks guys, you know what I meant, it definately was not a personal attack of any means, just a point of opinion, and nothing else. Sorry Chan if you took offence, that wasn't the point, it was just a bit of maybe lame humor to make a different point.
It's just that Tiger is so ripe right now, sad, but true.
Humor, everything has it's elements of humor, sorry, but I always try to look for any humor in it, if there is any there. :)
I suffer from a Don Rickles complex. :-\
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If you've ever surfed with Dave K, you would know he's one of the most gracious and generous guys in the lineup. He's full of smiles and aloha. It's funny how the bullshit stops whenever he's out. As if by magic, everyone is doing everything right. Tempers are kept in check. You don't hear any yelling, there's no fights. Nobody wants to look like an a-hole in front of Dave - not even the certified a-holes.
We need more pros like him.
Aloha,
// Gary
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I believe it, from what I've read/heard.
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E Kala mai Chan I did not want to upset anyone or show disrespect. The world could use more Dave Kalamas in lineups everywhere. Good luck to all with this next Big swell you guys are getting. I hope some of our zoners get to push the limits of what can be done in big surf on a sup.
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I'm surprised how many people who are not from Maui or don't live there are chirping about this. This is a Maui issue, not a global SUP rights issue. I've been surfing the North Shore for 25 years but I'm not from there nor have I lived there for any extended amount of time. When there was self regulation needed at Pipe and DaHui and later Wolfpak stepped up and provided it, mainly for the sake of safety, I didn't hear or see anyone outside of the community whining about it. We all just sucked it up and got in line. Maybe now adays it's just an internet thing, i don't know, but if you don't live there.. who the f*#k cares about what you think?!
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I have to say, I was pretty disappointed by the way this went--I figured the way to get the best traction was to get more people involved. Surfers, SUP folks at all levels, manufacturers, etc.. Come to some kind of agreement. Get buyoff on both sides.
I was wrong. Totally wrong.
The vibe in the water is the best I've ever experienced. I spent the day at Thousand Peaks, surfing from 8:00AM to 2:00 PM and never an unkind word. I had several people tell me that they heard what the "SUP community" had done, and they thought it was very cool. There was an incident so bizarre involving one of the very grumpiest longboarders that I'm not even going to relate it.
Same thing at Kanaha yesterday. It just didn't completely jell with me then that the reason all the longboarders were so friendly was the new agreement. I thought they just all missed me.
It's pretty remarkable how completely the word is out, and remarkable how everyone is reacting. I got some kidding--that I was at Thousand Peaks 'cause I didn't qualify for Kanaha. Stuff like that, but said with a smile.
I certainly never considered that these guys couldn't speak for me. I admire every one of them. I'm just too much of a politician to give up ground without extracting the most value for it. I simply didn't think a unilateral pronouncement would work well.
Once again, wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
I'd also say that anyone that uses the word "pros" with that list of watermen is not relating to their reputation. The only thing Laird is pro at is being Laird, which is something that many of us would give one or both testicles to emulate. These are guys that are respected anywhere they go. Dave Kalama especially--one of the coolest, nicest guys I've ever met. And anyone that has ever met Archie would NEVER say anything bad about him.
Time will tell if this effort continues to have this kind of effect, but so far, so very, very good. We sweepers are more welcome in Maui breaks than we've ever been.
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A quick hijack - 1000 Peaks is one of my favorite places - 99% of folks are always friendly there. But the stretch between Launiopko and Puamana was already showing a fun wrap (some head high, glassy sets) Saturday.
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Thanks guys. Sometimes Festivus has a mind of its own. We just had our Zone airing of grievances a little early this year. I am glad to see that we can all come together again after these little bumps and join back up to share a common stoke over an event like the incoming swell of the century. Now on to the feats of strength…
Festivus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQFLqMyo0fo#normal)
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If you've ever surfed with Dave K, you would know he's one of the most gracious and generous guys in the lineup. He's full of smiles and aloha. It's funny how the bullshit stops whenever he's out. As if by magic, everyone is doing everything right. Tempers are kept in check. You don't hear any yelling, there's no fights. Nobody wants to look like an a-hole in front of Dave - not even the certified a-holes.
When I was on Maui for a couple weeks in October there was three sessions when I was out where Dave was in the line-up.
Dave is great to be around on the water and is SUPER gracious - and I agree that his presence makes others a lot more polite, too.
Ahh, Festivus.
Festivus for the rest of us :)
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[..] share a common stoke over an event like the incoming swell of the century. [..]
Swell of the century!?!? I'm wondering if I need to move my family to higher ground!
I heard this might be the swell of the decade. :)
Update (edited): Zooks alive, I just read Pat Caldwell's report! This may indeed be the swell of the CENTURY!
Aloha,
// Gary
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Zooks alive, I just read Pat Caldwell's report!
That report is so cool. It seems like Pat Caldwell usually aims for an understated tone, but you get a sense of his excitement about this one.
It also seems like he was writing fully aware that he may be reporting on a historical swell, and that goofs like us would be pasting it all over.
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if you don't live there.. who the f*#k cares about what you think?!
because many places in the world take Hawaii as the cue of what to follow. Right or wrong, its what happens
Corran
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and that goofs like us would be pasting it all over.
Hey! I finally have an excuse to post in this thread!
Have a look at this one.
http://www.surfline.com/surf-news/how-does-next-weeks-giant-swell-stack-up-to-the-great-ones-of-the-past_39231/1/ (http://www.surfline.com/surf-news/how-does-next-weeks-giant-swell-stack-up-to-the-great-ones-of-the-past_39231/1/)
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Saw Derrick Doerner this morning at Anthony's. The boys are here.
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Last Thursday I paddled out at Kanaha and paddled back to shore after evaluating the conditions, my abilities and the crowd. I went straight to the harbor where a nice break was happening. All of the SUPers I know are courteous and love to surf. In two years I have never been scolded except the first day I tried to surf SUP at Kanaha. Surfers need to come to the table with something to give also. The surf spots do not belong only to them. At 54 I am not about to relinquish my right to have fun and enjoy the surf.
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To Dondon,
I find Kanaha very accepting of SUP for the most part at least for me but then again I surf there almost every day during winter. I am curious as to what you were scolded about?
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Regulating ourselves as a community is bound to end up better than having folks who don't SUP calling the shots.
Regards,
BAM
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Being stranded in a snowpile does not give me any credibility in paradise, but I'll toss my .02 in anyway.
This reminds me of mountain bikes versus the horse crowd. I was in Seattle when mtn biking took off there ~20 years ago. At the time there were gobs of perfect trails, which of course the horse crowd used as well. Mtn bikers being an anarchic crew didn't organize or care or really even try to be nice. So of course we lost the battle and saw most of the trails become horse only. Even though it was public property. The horses were richer,louder and better organized than the mtn bikers.
I see some likeness to this. The waves are public. The incumbents are howling. At times a third party entity is called in to make a new rule. Change is happening and the old guard is resisting.
The mtn biker in me is screeching though. Who the hell are the surfers to be thinking they own the surf? Maybe they have a tradition that is older, but the waves are public and the beaches are too. Change is happening. They can't stop it. It would seem at this point though they are better organized and better able to put up a good whine to anyone who will listen.
I guess having a constrained resource changes things too. There are after all only so many beaches on an island and so much space.
I'm surprised that SUP'ers are bending over and taking this though. Maybe the financial concerns of SUP manufacturers are driving this after all.
What do I know.. back to my pile of snow.
I hope that the right thing is done and that while traditions are respected, in all cases the old guard eventually yields to the new.
Jeff
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Tempest in a teapot, which unfortunately alienated some nice folks. It's had little to no effect on SUP surfing that I can see, except the irritation level seems to be down a bit even though the crowds are larger. There are a LOT of SUP surfers in Maui, at many breaks they outnumber surfers substantially. Yesterday at Kanaha I'd say it was ten to one (just a guess, I didn't count, but there was a HORDE of SUP surfers, with more arriving when I gave up and paddled in).
People really do need to spread out a bit. I'm probably going to stay away from Kanaha for the most part, even though I really enjoy it and like all the people. Time to explore the outer reefs and hit some of the weird spots I was surfing at the end of last year.
I still think this was a poor way to negotiate an agreement, but it worked OK in this case because not much was given away. Anyone that wants to surf Ho'okipa in a crowd is not going to be happy with any attempt at rules. Honalua--I don't know, it never seemed like a good idea to SUP there anyway. So just what did we give up?
All the same, if anyone else has to do something like this, I suggest three things.
First, negotiate with people that can make the deal. The decision-makers have to be in the room before your open your mouth. Otherwise you just listen.
Second, find out what the other folks want. The joke in my company is that the Babcock discount (the one I get, not the one I give) is retail plus ten percent, but I do understand how to make big deals that work. The first thing you need to know is "if I make this purple, with that satisfy you?" In other words, make sure you understand what's on the table and get people to SAY what would satisfy them.
Third, first person to put an offer on the table loses, unless your offer is silly. I usually have a offer I know is completely unacceptable in reserve to kick off the conversation if the other side stays mum.
Understand that I'm not talking about a pleasant process that leaves everyone friends. If you can avoid that kind of negotiation entirely then you're better off. The folks here on Maui may have accomplished a better result than I would have, even though it left feeling bruised in the SUP community.
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"Third, first person to put an offer on the table loses, unless your offer is silly. I usually have a offer I know is completely unacceptable in reserve to kick off the conversation if the other side stays mum."
This issue aside, this is an excellent observation - and a healthy reminder why everyone should learn how to play a poker passably well :)
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Jeff,
The mountain bike vs. horse situation is a good analogy. I have nothing against mountain biking per se, but rudeness can be dangerous. My daughter was riding a trial with our neighbor on their horses, and some mountain bikes flew by them at top speed and inches away. Our neighbor's horse panicked, bolted off and bucked the rider off. She suffered an injury. The bikes could have slowed, yielded the trail and everyone would have been safe and happy, and there wouldn't need to be any banning of horses or bikes from particular spots.
The only bad experience I've had with a SUPer was actually at a beginners spot; Cove Park on Maui. I was out trying to teach my 10 year old son how to surf, pushing him into the waves on his board. Every time I was set to have him catch a wave, this guy on a SUP already had it! He was like on a merry-go-round taking every decent wave. Was he blind or just a jack-ass?
I’m a SUP rider too, and don’t think any places should be banned. We just have to be extra sensitive to the nature of the equipment and how we can be annoying, or worse, dangerous.
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This self-regulation might not be working as well as hoped. There were a couple of sup's at Ho'okipa this morning. Both determined to battle the winds and the crowd. Lots of shortboarders doing their best to block them and paddling over to say something to them (wonder what?).
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Ok,coming from a surfer.My question is,how are those self regulations made known to the SUP community?I do not see any signs at Kanaha,Ho'okipa,etc.. And How do people who rent a stand up board know about these? do the shops tell them?Kanaha is still replete with unskilled people(,both on surfboards and stand ups.) at the main break,up from the lifeguard tower.Here is a suggestion,the stand up people go over to that person who does not belong in the mix(those people stand out fast),and suggest they go down some ways.That person will accept the idea coming from another SUP better than coming from me,a surfer.When I am on a longboard,and I see another longboarder hogging waves at Ho'okipa,I make it a point to remind them to share,I do it even when I am not on a longboard,I don't want that person to ruin it for me next time I am out on my longboard.Every time I ask my friends who are out on a stand up to go and tell such and such to move some ways down,they are very reluctant.But if you don't do it,then tensions arise,and they don't have to.BTW,in regards to Dave Kalama,I could not agree more.The other day,@ Kanaha,I was closest to the peak,he waited to see if I was able to catch the wave(I was on a 7.0) before stroking for it.I wish everybody was like that.Aloha
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Hi paidmydues,
We recently visited Hawaiian Islands to pick up a paddle and they let us know that they had printed the rules in this thread for showing/handing out to beginners, board buyers, and renters. We picked up a check at Second Wind for a board that they had sold for us and Ralph was extremely supportive of what he had read here. I believe that they also are getting this info out there to their customers. We haven't been in the other shops in the last few weeks, so I couldn't say about those. This thread has been heavily viewed here, and has been linked or republished by many other surf and SUP related sites.
It seems that most of the SUP community on Maui has chosen to come together to support Dave, Laird, Robby, Buzzy, Archie, Scott, Loch, and others in their efforts to improve relations, promote safety, and avoid legal regulations. I hope things keep improving so everyone can enjoy the amazing waves we have been getting lately.
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yes,I see this topic is heavily viewed.I am confident that eventually it will work itself out.Stopped by the Kihei Cove,everybody seemed to be getting along fine there.