Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: B-Walnut on April 29, 2023, 07:35:46 PM
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Starting to come across a few videos of people advocating for hand paddles over learning to SUP when downwinding the narrow fleet of boards that have gained in popularity. The claims are that it's not that hard to get up, and you eliminate a lot of the balance/struggle of learning to SUP something so narrow. Anyone have first hand experience with both and care to advocate one way or the other?
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Starting to come across a few videos of people advocating for hand paddles over learning to SUP when downwinding the narrow fleet of boards that have gained in popularity. The claims are that it's not that hard to get up, and you eliminate a lot of the balance/struggle of learning to SUP something so narrow. Anyone have first hand experience with both and care to advocate one way or the other?
Hi B-Walnut, I did see one vid recently, but it was shot way outside in lumpy swell and it did not look easy. Do you have some links? Thanks!
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Here's one of James Casey, "trying out" hand paddles in surf and small swell.
https://youtu.be/OLcXWcgjmDQ
He dives into the above video with lots of details and pros/cons in this second video."Hand paddles are going to open it up to a whole new realm of people."
https://youtu.be/yS5tnUdQ7Ys
Voyager Foiler did a three part series shots from Maui and the Gorge:
https://youtu.be/CTHg1dST_nI
Part two, he flatwater handpaddles up onto foil and talks a lot about the SUP vs hand paddle differences.
https://youtu.be/EA_8SwEhZao
Part three, "stand up foiling is the hardest discipline of all foiling"
https://youtu.be/IcWbbrYEiJE
He kept saying "It's easier, it's not as tiring, it's going to be accessible to everyone."
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If I could still pop up on any board in a reasonable amount of time (like maybe before I hit the sand) I'd do the hand paddle thing in a heartbeat. The prone foilers seem to have a really great time. Watching Annie Lai progress in prone foiling at Ka'a has me convinced.
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Lots of cool stuff in those vids.
Very practiced foilers are using hand paddles to knee paddle, pump up, and pop up in flat water, so the concept is proven, for sure. Also prone paddleborders can can catch swell easily with no hand paddles on 12 footers, no kneel. Does the kneeling and hand paddling look easy/easier than SUP? Not sure. The videos above in small waves (ocean waves) seem like they should be easy to make waves on 8 foot boards, even prone without paddles and probably regular much smaller surf foil bords. I get that the guys are using these waves to practice knee pumping but I am unsure if it looks easier. My first impression is no. I remember when the longer, narrower, Barracuda boards were new they thought of them as either/or (SUP with an option for prone with hand paddles) and there were some vids of that then but it seems like that aspect had faded to just SUP. I am imagining though, that guys who have mastered SUP downwind could transition to hand paddles with relative ease. Of course, I am biased and very hopeful that no paddles or kneeling will be needed to foil downwind. That (expected to be long) journey is about to begin :)
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Couldn't be a much more arduous journey than our first efforts at wingfoiling. I'm amazed we didn't just take up golf or bowling.
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Couldn't be a much more arduous journey than our first efforts at wingfoiling. I'm amazed we didn't just take up golf or bowling.
I am amazed that everyone else still wanted to try winging :). There were exactly 3 wingers in the Gorge then, and we all drove together :).
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I envision the first take off here the utimate mode for Downwind with the correct gear. 7 Medium strokes, a slow get up (for those who can) and mellow lift off (not a hurried pump fest). He is an amazing foiler but that is an attainable start. Granted these are ocean waves again, but I am hopeful that similar is possible for downwind swell with purpose built gear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oVq1Ddw7VY
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With the kalama offerings coming in at 92, 102, and 112 liters I'm quite torn on which I would consider. There's the safe side of me that knows, for paddling, I'd need the 112. However, if prone or knees w/hand paddles is the direction to pursue, smaller might be nicer.
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My thinking would be if you wanted to prone you'll want the extra glide of the longer bigger board. Similar how to a 9' glides vs 12', the 12' seems to glide much better.
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After trying to get up to foil on a downwind board in flatwater to marginal bump conditions I decided to give the hand paddles a try so I bought some basic paddles from a swim store and have the ones from Sunova on order. No SUP experience until 6 months ago but did manage to get balanced on a Sunova Elite 7'3" that is 23 inches wide with 128 liters (I am 82 kgs) but never able to lift up using an F One Gravity 2200 with 275 stab 75 cm mast.
And I still have not flown even using the hand paddles on two occasions but those videos from Voyager have some shots of someone hand paddling up in totally flat water on a Sunova which gives some hope. Looks like he has the mast far forward and his ankles positioned over the mast and he paddles at a pace similar to what you see in most standup paddle flatwater videos.
I am going to try this route but hoping that this thread keeps going with input from those who get this dialed in with flatwater to marginal bump non breaking conditions. Wondering if a higher aspect front wing would help or hurt or if a board design with more volume in the nose like the Sultan from Amos might work better.
Thanks in advance to anyone who contributes to this thread.
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Another hand paddle flat water paddle up video out today
https://youtu.be/mTtm6-hWgFg
Looks like he gets a little speed and the poos up before the board lifts. Maybe the 2600 front wing helps vs a 2200
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I’ve been dialing in my 6’3” 86L DW board (I’m 65kgs). I’ve been winging, then taking out the SUP paddle or hand paddle co. out to get some reps in. So far, I’m progressing much faster with hand paddles and have managed to get up on foil in small 25knt onshore conditions off of a 5 mile fetch in stomach deep water with a 60cm mast and 1325HA wing. I tried SUPing that session as well and the short mast made it too unstable for me.
I’m getting about 25% faster padding speed on my knees with the hand paddles. Next good wind day, I’m taking my 1750ma out with wing and anchorman leash with hand paddles on my waist. That way I can put myself in a good zone. Release the wing with anchor in place and practice prone paddle ups.
If I were to be targeting more open ocean conditions or really focusing on SUP, I would have got a longer, higher volume board. For my bay, river, and occasional ocean runs, I’m happy with my choice for now
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I’m getting about 25% faster padding speed on my knees with the hand paddles.
VB, Mind sharing what ypur speeds are? Thanks
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Last attempt with a light tail wind and some residual 6” wind swell I maxed at 4.3mph hand paddle and 3.3mph SUP. Looking back at that successful prone paddle up, it looks like I hit 4.3, then speed dropped to 4 (getting to feet) then slowly built up as I pumped onto foil off the water.
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Last attempt with a light tail wind and some residual 6” wind swell I maxed at 4.3mph hand paddle and 3.3mph SUP. Looking back at that successful prone paddle up, it looks like I hit 4.3, then speed dropped to 4 (getting to feet) then slowly built up as I pumped onto foil off the water.
Great data thanks for sharing! What's your background like with SUP vs Prone experience?
I went back and forth on sizing but ended up going longer/larger for my first downwind board 8'x21"x112l. We've had nothing but flatwater since I got it, but finally have wind and swell coming this weekend and I'm looking forward to getting out on it for my first tries. I've found it prone and SUP paddles great, but I don't have any actual speed data which would be great to have!
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Thanks for that. What app are you using?
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I'm using Waterspeed App paired with my Apple Ultra watch.
I've owned a 12' 6" touring SUP for years and take it out a few times a year. Just did a 7.75 mile canal paddle with my wife. Talk about grueling! I tried SUP Foiling my FSM 5'11" a few times, but didn't understand the J stroke, so it was a bit too much for me at the time. I've been prone surfing for years, so plenty of actual prone paddling experience. Never tried the kneeling prone style paddling before this. I will note that it does tax the hip / lower leg muscles quite a bit and will take time to build stamina. Skateboarding since a kid as well, so a lot of balance practice on a regular basis I guess. I'd put myself at above average balance/skill level at my 38 year age group.
That 8' x 21" x 112L sounds like a weapon! Keep us posted on progression.