Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: liv2surf on February 09, 2023, 10:11:18 PM
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Why do the new Axis downwinder boards get narrower as they get longer (with more volume): 21, 20 and 19 wide for 100L_76, 110L_80 and 120L_ 86, respectively. Is this a common strategy (for example, with Kalama Barracuda etc). I can imagine this keeps surface area down, thereby decreasing drag and increasing paddle speeds. My concern is that a 19 wide 120L board would be too tippy, side-to-side for a beginner? Ive been told that the increased stability in the pitch axis (from extra length) allows rider to focus on yaw axis
. but in my SUP experience there is plenty of independence of these axes.
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Boards gain stability from length. They also, of course, gain volume. I'm useless on a 9' SUP board with 25" width, but I managed it just fine with a 14' downwind board. There's also a limit to how much volume you really want, a board floating high off the water is quite unstable and gets kicked around by every little bit of chop. And of course foil boards gain a lot of lateral stability from the foil and mast. But no, I wouldn't think a 19" wide board would be great for beginners.
There are lots of other possible reasons why designers choose dimensions.
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This is the way i see it:
When the board rolls the rail sinks,center of buoyancy moves to low side and resists the roll.
Longer board= longer rail= more resistance to roll.
So you can make a longer board narrower without loosing roll stability.
This means nothing when your shape is a perfect cylinder because rolling does not move the center of buoyancy at all...and this Kalama designs are closer to a cylinder than a trad surfboard shape.
19' is narrowish even for a surfboard... would love to try a few of these DW boards to see what width i could handle in chop etc.
Probably closer to 25' even Xtralong :(
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I think the short answer is none of these sizes are designed are for beginner DWers. Armstrong also just released DW boards that don't have any obvious beginner sizes. It makes sense that they don't want to compromise performance in such a challenging sport and risk being labeled as inferior. It will be interesting to see what range of sizes are available when/if the Barracuda production boards are released. DK certainly has made enough customs to have a good idea of what sizes are needed. Wonder if the current E3 will be the default beginner DW model? Likewise Axis has the new hybrid which is a better compromise for beginners than their DW model.
Axis's inverse of length and width is pretty interesting. Could it be that they are more designed to cover a variety of conditions than user weight? Longer, narrower, and more volume could be better for faster bigger ocean conditions while smaller, slightly wider, with less volume could be better for steeper easier to catch wind chop/waves? I'm just speculating. Interested to hear what others think.
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A birdie told me there will be a new series of Kalama production boards based on the barracuda in a month or two. Three lengths and they are slightly wider as they get longer
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There's also the monkey on a rope version of stability if there's any rocker.
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I've had a 8'2 x 20 110L sort of Barracuda design for about 2 months and I cannot fathom how stable it is - primary stabililty is as good as the 5'10 x 28.5 SUP foil board I normally use in surf. Secondary stability (when you roll past 30-40degrees) is a little less forgiving, but not by much.
I use it to paddle up on flat water and on dwds it's a gamechanger, gone are the days of being stuck in mud....
The length really adds a lot of stability as explained above. Is it for beginners, maybe not outright beginners, but it's pretty impressive. I have winged it as well - you get up in nothing.
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narrower boards have less edge leverage when small waves and bumps are encountered. Wider boards have greater edge leverage, making them roll more. The stabilizing influence of the mast and foil have a proportionately greater effect with narrower boards versus wider boards. These narrow boards are far more stable than they would at first appear. longer water lines also increase stability.
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A billion years ago, when I was having trouble with roll stability downwinding SUP boards Dave told me "get your feet closer together". I thought "easy for you to say" but I tried it, and it was a lot better. The more I think about this the more I realize I should narrow the Kalama-style board I ordered from Mark that I might see by my 80th birthday. I'd just buy a board from Dave, but they are much too fragile for a clumsy, careless klutz like me.
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A billion years ago, when I was having trouble with roll stability downwinding SUP boards Dave told me "get your feet closer together". I thought "easy for you to say" but I tried it, and it was a lot better. ....
narrower boards have less edge leverage when small waves and bumps are encountered. Wider boards have greater edge leverage, making them roll more. .... longer water lines also increase stability.
I have to believe that it is the narrow stance width of the rider more than narrow width of the board that PROMOTES roll resistance and stability in roll dimension. Of course, narrower board width does absolutely constrain the maximum rider stance width. Why would a narrow rider stance improve roll stability? I think narrow stance improves roll stability because a narrower stance width limits how far away from the board's centerline the rider can put their weight.... hence less roll.
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I think stance width of the rider changes the "sensitivity" to weight shifts as well as "reaction time".
With a wide foot stance, when the board tilts, the rider compensates with the large upper leg muscles to stay balanced. With a narrow enough stance, everything can be compensated with fast-twitch muscles in the lower leg.
Said a different way, if the board tilts XX degrees to one side, you have to make one leg longer than the other to keep your body in the right position. With feet closer together, less movement is necessary in the body to do so. If you get too close together there is not enough leverage to right the board when it starts rocking/tilting.
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With a narrow enough stance, everything can be compensated with fast-twitch muscles in the lower leg.
.....With feet closer together, less movement is necessary in the body to do so. If you get too close together there is not enough leverage to right the board when it starts rocking/tilting.
This is interesting and illuminating for me (as someone with a SUP stance that is chronically too wide).
It seems you are saying a narrower stance width can allow more effective and efficient board roll corrections, while taking stance too narrow will diminish this ability and benefit. I wonder how to appreciate narrowing my stance.
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Liv, this is 100% true. Just start trying it. It's often better to adjust once you're going but truthfully you can just force it when standing on the board.
A simple way to say it is, your toes are faster than your thighs or knees.
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Just to agree, and suggest a simple demonstration - a narrow stance on my balance board is way easier to manage than a wide one.
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With a narrow enough stance, everything can be compensated with fast-twitch muscles in the lower leg.
.....With feet closer together, less movement is necessary in the body to do so. If you get too close together there is not enough leverage to right the board when it starts rocking/tilting.
This is interesting and illuminating for me (as someone with a SUP stance that is chronically too wide).
It seems you are saying a narrower stance width can allow more effective and efficient board roll corrections, while taking stance too narrow will diminish this ability and benefit. I wonder how to appreciate narrowing my stance.
This is a really good explanation from 10 years ago as to why narrow stances make sense wrt board stability, and not just width and liters that was the thought(s) years ago...
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,19100.msg185179.html#msg185179
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Anyone try one of these Axis DW boards yet? Looking at the 8 footer for flatwater starts, onshore non breaking windswell, and light wind winging.
Currently have the aviator elite 7'3" with a gofoil monster 2600 front, 23 inch long tail, and 70 cm V2 mast. I think I am getting closer (just switched from an aluminum mast/fuse setup with compisite 2200 cm2 wing), but I am wondering if moving to longer and skinnier will move the curve for me a bit.
Also curious how the carbon construction holds up. TEC from Sunova seems a bit susceptible to dings.
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I'm using the DW boards and the hybrid 6'4 as well. I can flat water paddle up the 6'4 with the 1310 and the 8' is pretty easy to pop up onto while the 8'6 is easy enough for my first time customers to be able to pop up on their first session. The carbon wrap is pretty durable but I keep it in the bag when in the truck.
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I'm using the DW boards and the hybrid 6'4 as well. I can flat water paddle up the 6'4 with the 1310 and the 8' is pretty easy to pop up onto while the 8'6 is easy enough for my first time customers to be able to pop up on their first session. The carbon wrap is pretty durable but I keep it in the bag when in the truck.
Wow, do I understand correctly that you have customers flat water paddling foiling on their first day with the 8'6" and 1310? These are people who I assume already have strong paddling skills?
I had generally understood that many experienced water people considered flat water paddle ups the hardest thing they had ever done. Is the new equipment so good that it can be learned in a day?
It's something I aspire to do and was ready for at least a season to get in shape and acquire the technique. You are getting my hopes up that it can learned rapidly with the right equipment.
How much harder is it to paddle up the Hybrid? Is there any reason you paddle up the hybrid other than the challenge?
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I wouldn't say it's easy. I don't think I could do it for example. But with the proper equipment and a lot of foil pumping skill, yes you can learn to paddle up day 1.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cu8YrZRJQ3-/
You don't have to paddle those huge foils very fast. You do have to know how to pump them so they don't stall.
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Looks like it's a two or three month wait for these. The inverse width to length makes more sense to me now. Hopefully more vids will show up on youtube of these boards and other 8' plus skinnys doing flatwater, mini bump onshore paddle ups, and lightwind winging. Maybe the 8'6" is the winner if it does it all. Don't mind working for this but the easier the better at this point in mellow conditions.
Anyone know about other more available DW boards that go skinnier as they get longer?