Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: Admin on November 24, 2022, 10:06:39 AM
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Here is a concept I was playing with this morning. A foil that incorporates the mast connection to the front wing directly, freeing it from the fuselage. In doing so we could add stiffness, strength and lose a lot of weight from the fuse head and the fuselage. I would imagine we could use greatly reduced carbon box tube (as pictured) for the fuse, as it will have no mast load or load from the front wing. Interested in your thoughts. This one (my first try) is a 1080. The mast opening is to scale for an Axis carbon mast. It needs a lot of simplifying and smoothing, but these are the broad strokes.
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I was thinking along the same lines. I think if you sweep the wings back you'd increase the pitch stability and perhaps add a bit of gull-wing to increase roll stability. The wing would also counter yaw a bit as long as the sweep was not too great. Most of the information about wing sweep relates to wings in air at high speed, so the characteristics would be relatively unclear until we try it.
I've also been thinking of a carbon blade to hold the stabilizer. Lots of vertical stiffness, but not so much laterally. I think it might turn pretty well. Or be very weird. Either would be fun.
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Cool! Let's try those things. I ordered rolls of all of the prepreg bagging consumables including the tube bags so we can experiment with all kinds of SHO's (stabilizer holder outers). We are not really limited in the wing designs that we can do this way. Check out this image. This is the Axis advance fuse and the normal. They are at scale. On this first (rough) model, I put the mast just a bit forward of the advance, but we could easily move the mast back to even behind the standard. We don't need to introduce any pitch issues (unless we want to). The other pic is how I grabbed the rough mast shape and then scaled that in. We can likely do that part as a regular mold when we bag so this is just for visualization.
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I'm trying to force myself to catch up to you with the Oculus, but you keep zooming away. That's so cool.
Have you ordered any prepreg, and if you have, do you have a freezer? You need one unless you're going to use everything you ordered very quickly. I keep hearing that it will survive at room temperature for weeks, but I've turned an expensive roll into junk in my chilly shop. Most cheap chest freezers are perfectly adequate but don't have much in the way of temperature control. We have one in our garage at the house, but it has no thermostat at all and freezes stuff to a level that I fear frostbite when I carry stuff from it to the kitchen. You don't want prepreg to get that cold but there are nice add-on control thermostats on Amazon for about 30 bucks. I got one but haven't installed it (which would take about ten seconds, but I'd actually have to think of it when I'm not cooking).
I have a lot of vacuum bagging equipment and supplies, but you're obviously not going to wait until March when I get back. The little EC4 pump that Easy Composites offers looks really good for the price. I spent about three times that much for mine and had to build it, adding a buffer chamber and related control solenoids and pressure control systems to keep from toasting it on a restart when there's already a vacuum applied. The only downside is that it requires 220V, but the oven has a power outlet for it, so that might not be an issue.
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https://www.r-g.de/art/390100
Maybe not much help but this changed things for me. A diaphragm pump. No oil mist. The oil mist can be killer. Built in gauge and valve. Tiny, dosn't heat up. Quiet. I leave it running all night without a worry.
It is slow at 6l/m but for the small stuff you will be doing it won't matter. I just added a T joiner and valve and suck most of the air out with a shop vac when I did SUPs.
I do use the Easy Composite quick connectors. Not cheap but they work and don't leak.
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Nice. I ordered the oven with all the goodies, the EC4 pump (they claim mist free - We'll see), those cool quick connectors for everything, and a ton of the consumables. No prepreg yet. I am waiting on the printer. I am going to take your advice and get a freezer and I will look for one with a thermostat.
We are going to have a lot of fun with this.
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Making the not-really-a-fuselage as a carbon blade would offer a lot of tuning options.
Of course since we're rethinking how these things work nearly everything is worth a try.
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https://www.r-g.de/art/390100
Maybe not much help but this changed things for me. A diaphragm pump. No oil mist. The oil mist can be killer. Built in gauge and valve. Tiny, dosn't heat up. Quiet. I leave it running all night without a worry.
It is slow at 6l/m but for the small stuff you will be doing it won't matter. I just added a T joiner and valve and suck most of the air out with a shop vac when I did SUPs.
I do use the Easy Composite quick connectors. Not cheap but they work and don't leak.
I got a dual-head piston pump, but I got an oil bath pump intended for refrigeration work first and then spent a bunch of time making an oil separator stack to catch the mist and return it to the pump. Right about when I got it working perfectly the Gast pump showed up and I never used it again.
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Hi,
I got a https://store.acpcomposites.com/rocker-300-vacuum-pump - Rocker 300 oil less vacuum pump last year - it has worked flawless. You can get it cheaper on amazon.
ACP also offers clips for the ends of vacuum tube bags , so no sticky tape needed https://store.acpcomposites.com/quick-lock-seals, also tube bags in various widths.
I purchased dry carbon from Composite Envisions- they also have prepreg https://compositeenvisions.com/product-category/composite-fabrics/pre-preg/ , they offer a variable cure rate prepreg. It indicates 6 month storage life at 40 F - so your beer refrigerator would work. They can also wet out any fabric to make it prepreg.
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For the life of me I couldn't find those bag clips. I just made my own in the end.
I actually threw the old oil pump away. I had covered everything in oil mist twice!
Admin, wondering why you are buying from Easycomposits and not locally? They are super helpful.
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Those clips look fantastic. Thanks! I am getting those for sure.
Tarquin, this was the best (really only suitable) prepreg oven I could find. I love that it controls the pump (or two) and controls the cure cycles. This is going to be fiddly enough so whatever I can automate, I am down with. Do you know of an alternate or a local reseller for their oven and products? I would be open to that for sure. Once I am having the oven crated and shipped, the rest hardly changed the price.
Easy is claiming a specific prepreg for the out of autoclave process, which they say produces a cleaner finish. I know, excellent marketing, but I thought I would start with as close to a known good process end to end before I start making the inevitable substitutions. That way, when things go sideways, I will have less possible reasons (and will have a resource to email a pic to). Their tech support guys are awesome, friendly and are as informative as their videos.
Their variable rate prepreg looks like an awesome option. They wrote "This prepreg is vacuum-bag, platen press, and autoclave compatible". I sent a question about this to see how they fare with this out of autoclave process. Red or blue foils would be rad (although the colors need a little more heat).
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Don't know of a local, for you, dealer. I guess they would have mentioned it. I live in France.
As I said they have always been super helpful with me. As you said at least you know you will get good help from them.
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Thanks dude. I could only find small ovens or huge walk in stuff in the US and no small ones with internal pump attachments or any kind of pump control. I was actually surprised by the reasonable oven price, so even with shipping it seems like a great value. The prepreg is expensive so anything I can do to eliminate mistake waste is probably worth it. The cure cycles are pretty exacting and I don't want to manually nurse temp ramps and the likes.
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You could talk to this guy:
https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/Axis-RadicallyShort--77mm-advanced-fuselage-prototype
His latest version is pretty close to what you are planning i think.
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Hi Guys,
I advanced this a bit today. Removed some overkill loops, added some backsweep, subtle gull, and 2.5 degrees of progressive washout/flare at the tips from the visible control loop. The fuse is a placeholder. I am not sure exactly what Bill has in mind, but I like it. My thought is that we can test and reduce until flex causes problems. Some internal views (that is so fun) and measurements as well. The wing is actually quite thin and high aspect. It remains a work in progress. I haven't done the wingtips yet.
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Some more.
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Looks awesome. Not sure how you are actually designing the foils but this might be of interest.
https://finfoil.io/
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Looks awesome. Not sure how you are actually designing the foils but this might be of interest.
https://finfoil.io/
I am taking attractive foil sections from the database and I am taking care to preserve the section shape exactly for the length of the foil. The only exception is the center where I have made that same shape symmetrical (It is naturally cambered). I did that for extra support and flow at the mast union. It flows from symmetrical to cambered in about an inch.
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Shit, I'm still floating around like a vampire in a blank room trying to figure out which button does which. I can't get the dimension and axis lines to appear with regularity. Holding one controller under the other makes different kinds of lines in what seems to be a completely random way.
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Shit, I'm still floating around like a vampire in a blank room trying to figure out which button does which. I can't get the dimension and axis lines to appear with regularity. Holding one controller under the other makes different kinds of lines in what seems to be a completely random way.
We can do a call any time and I can get you over the hump.
A few things that help.
General - turn off face tracking and eye tracking. Battery will go from 2 to 4 hours and you lose nothing.
Turn on "world axis" in settings. I keep that on always. That will show the red, green blue XYZ axes (axis's, axis', axe-ease - I give up).
To measure anything, go to primitive shapes in the tool menu and select the little right left arrow icon over to the right. That will enable the measurement tool. You can change from metric to imperial in settings.
Smart move is important. Check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1oD3-CbDeA
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What am I thinking? We can do a gravity sketch shared session. My wifi sucks, but Carson plays Among Us VR all the time with a group of screaming 7 year olds, so we should be fine. PM me your best email address and I will send you an invite.
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Somehow you are already in my control panel. It's nothing I did. Let me get through the basic tutorials first and then I won't be throwing my controllers at the wall.
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As a side study (not applicable to this direct mount idea), here is the Axis red fuse head at scale nested into this downloaded segment (which has been scaled to a chord length of 7.5 inches and set at an incidence of 2.5 degrees). Interesting to me as it shows how much depth would need to be added for mounting material below the head for this segment and head at this size and also how little profiling would need to be done to match the surfaces.
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Here is the center portion of a another concept wing. It also presents the mount junction for the mast integrated into the front wing. Axis Carbon Mast). This one is 987 mm using a different cambered section with a symmetrical root section (1 inch transition). Incidence at 2.5 degrees. Sections can be printed solid as shown or with any wall thickness/infill combination and can be sliced at any width shape or dimension. Hybrid solid/infill configs are also possible. Sections can be bonded and laminated or printed as one and laminated. The result is a light and strong all carbon core and a carbon prepreg exo. Lots of experimentation will required to achieve the optimal weight to strength balance. So stoked to have these amazing technologies and materials available!
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If we want to push lift forward we can always add forward sweep, pictured at 1140 here with some compound sharklets to combat vortices and a root/connector well which is "under construction". With a well design like this we could use both vertical and horizontal mast attachment hardware simultaneously.
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Here is my (evolving) process of auditioning sections and roughing in foils. Nothing like water time of course, but most sections are just ugly and scream "I won't work" once you rough them in. In the images, I trace out the section multiply it, skin it, scale in the fuse head well, set the incidence with the well base angle, pull out the tail to match the head runoff, and then match the contours and shape in the radius. I was able to add matched washout (opposite of the incidence angle, which I set to 2.5 degrees). The headset battery warning started yelling at me before I finished the wing tips. Apologies for that. Hopefully these images of the process make sense and I hope that someone else is in the mood for this geekfest. 🙂. Foil is 5 inches at the root chordline an even 1,000 long. Happy Cyber Wednesday!
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and as if that was not enough...
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and as if that was not enough...
I have a friend that works at this place. She said nobody will be around Christmas day. We can sneak in and test foils. I promised not to break anything. Ha ha.
Foil models look amazing.
https://youtu.be/pir_muTzYM8
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I didn't plan on watching all 20 minutes but...that is fixating. Can you imagine downwinding in that perfect corduroy?
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That would be a blast to see, but you'd still need to instrument the heck out of the foils to get good data. The big gantry is undoubtedly how they simulate flows. If we wanted data on lift and center of lift, flows and turbulence that facility would be like using a chainsaw to cut butter. Thanks for the video though, Larry. That was fun, and yeah, I watched all 20 minutes too, dammit.
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Can you imagine downwinding in that perfect corduroy?
Si.
https://www.facebook.com/758111657551885/videos/128616056012007?__so__=permalink
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That would be a blast to see, but you'd still need to instrument the heck out of the foils to get good data.
Or, one could skip all that and just jump in and start testing foils. We did a run Wednesday in conditions that pool can easily match.
That gang I tag along with (I'm in ski) is remarkably foil brain damaged. They go when it's light whitecaps on the south shore. No wingdings, just paddles. No excessive pumping like those aliens on flat water. Several rest stops, (because they had foil surfed Ka'a that morning). The girls were on foils relative in size to the 899. All on Barracudas, of course. The foils Randy and Chan will be using would tear that pool up.
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I would dearly love to be able to do that. Too old, weak, and fat I fear. I've tried--it seems hopeless. Maybe with a motor.
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I worked there in the 90s back when I was sailing high performance international canoes. We were totally "canoe-brained" which was the equivalent to foil brain now. My boss and I used to dream about sneaking into the huge wave pool to sail around, that wasn't going to happen though.
Years before I got there, in the 70's they built a half mile long towing tank with a gantry that could reach 100knots. They were testing hydrofoils to try and accomplish ship designs for the "100knot navy" goal that someone or other had dreamed up. That's idea didn't take I guess. I helped with a few tests on that rig. If you really really want to know exactly how a foil performs, that would be the way
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I don't foil, but I've listened as the gang worked up from the original big blue gofoil.
Nowadays, it seems to me that increasing the useable range of speeds is going to be the limiting factor in the Gorge. Those waves are steep. You are going to want to stay up on foil and move around from wave to wave.
As all you foilers are aware, you want lift at low speed to get up. Dave's barracuda was a game changer. It opened the door to an entire group of foil surfers (and wing dingers) that had given up on downwind paddle foiling. They are rocking maliko runs now. The barracuda allowed them to learn the initial liftoff timing in lumpy seas. Then they quickly move to a 'faster' wing.
The south shore of Maui is basically a wave pool. Zero fetch, steep wave faces, max 0.5Hz frequency (2 second period). From shore, we often see ribbons of waves, a single, unbroken trough easily reaching out over a half mile. Just a bit of a chevron across the wave, but one line all the way out - just like that pool. This is ideal for learning to downwind.
So, next step is they start pushing the top speeds. Not because it's more fun - because it's easier to link glides.
Nobody like pumping on foil. 'Slower' foils may lift easy, but they blow up pretty fast - even on the south shore. Extra lift requires them to avoid steeper wave faces. Once in the trough, they need to pump and paddle out of it. With a 'faster' foil, they effortlessly glide thru those troughs, up to the next wave. If they choose to zoom down the face, the foil won't blow up. They also have the option to carve the wave face. Tail wings are a big deal, as you all are very aware. The 2 second (max) 'swell' period is the key here, the overall speed isn't very fast.
So, next step for them is how to negotiate the north shore and it's warp speeds. Swell periods from the East top out at 10 seconds, which is spooky fast for mere mortals. Most alpha girls won't go when it's too big and windy. They don't have the weight to hold the nose down. When they cross the crest to fade out the back of a big one, the wind can knock them over. Guys just float down the road, like a bus. Weigh is a big advantage in big wind, big maliko, Oc-1, ski and foil. It hastens the zoom down to a high top speed, momentum prolongs it.
So, next up for foiling at a nuthouse like the Gorge is speed brakes. That's what we do in boats. I broke several paddles braking in my Oc-1. Thankfully, ski wing are much stronger.
Mechanical brakes. Probably won't take much to open up a wide range of practical lift. Fast forward to 6:46 if youtube doesn't.
https://youtu.be/O22eHzc8yl0?t=406
Gorge is crazy steep. Almost too big for boats. Almost.
https://youtu.be/Y_hm5zpSWJs
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Wow, for a non-foiler you certainly understand all the issues. The gear is in flux more than the casual user understands. Even fakers like me are on faster, more challenging equipment, which is, at the same time, easier to use when you get to the outer limits of the current envelope. The first time I saw an Axis 1000 I thought "no way I could ever get up on that." Now it's in the rearview mirror. Big and slow.
There's a good reason I live in Maui and the Gorge. Nonstop crazy fun. And yes, brakes would be good, as evidenced yesterday on the south side. Fairly light wind, but still, when I turned downwind to jibe my Axis 999 was humming like an organ. I could feel the vibrations in my feet.
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"Doubles the airplanes drag". What a great visual.
https://youtu.be/O22eHzc8yl0?t=417
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My dad always told me foiling would take over sailing one day. When I was a kid he gave me a model of a trimaran he made. He said what everyone is doing wrong is making the foils too big to get early lift. You want something that goes fast enough to be able to use smaller foils. Only a small difference in boat speed allows you to have much smaller foils.
He also said once people figure out it works and actually spend money on CFD specifically for foils things will develop very quickly. The elusive 50 knot barrier will become the norm.
Eventually they will need to figure out how to slow down to be able to tack and gybe.
The AC boats and some other classes are talking about have some system of being able to slow down.
He thought foils would eventually become totally computer controlled and you would be able to change the shape. Some sort of second skin that could be inflated and deflated. He also said air brakes, as said above may become a thing on sailboats one day.
Anyhow I wonder if those paddle glove things would be enough to slow you down. Like a kid flying your hand out the window of a car.
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He wanted to call me Peregrine, after the Peregrine Falcon that changes it's head into a wedge shape to reach crazy speeds.
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Lots of studies have been done on Peregrine falcons and how they change shape to go crazy fast.
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For conventional setups on an Axis Fuselage, this is a nice way to match up a rear wing with all of the Axis fuselage contours in that area. Create a plane in software, bend it to the fuselage profile contours and then match it to the outline. With that you can vertically pull the base points of the stabilizer. Software will snap to the new plane and take care of all the smoothing based on your control loops. Sweet. This will be even easier when my scanner shows up. Stoked for that.
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What scanner did you get. I've got the latest Revopoint at my shop. I've never used it but I expect that to change. I'd ask Tad to get it for you, but it would be hard for him to find it.
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This guy I know had suggested the Revopoint Mini and it sounded like something I needed :). Really, though, that thing looks incredible. Thanks for the suggestion!