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General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: Admin on November 07, 2022, 04:57:21 AM

Title: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 07, 2022, 04:57:21 AM
Hi guys,

I have been geeking out with a new VR headset (Quest Pro) and I am learning Gravity Sketch (free app).  I am a beginner with GS, just through the tutorial, but it is so cool.  You can freely create and manipulate objects in your real world environment.  Finished files can be sent on to manufacturing, 3D printing, mold making, etc.

I downloaded a foil section to play with from one of the thousands available online.  Imported the image to GS, Traced it, duplicated it and surfaced it (and then detached the surface).  Each section can be morphed, as can the whole.  It can be sliced, or cut into for attachments, hardware etc. 

These new headsets allow you to work in a variety of virtual spaces (grey loft in images) or in your real world environment.  You can switch back and forth as desired.  Manipulating a virtual object freely in your real world environment is shockingly cool (or maybe that's just me? :) ).  Oh, and you can collaborate in real time with others anywhere in the world and switch off model control, etc.  Spectacular!

Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 10, 2022, 06:59:08 AM
Man is this addicting.  Learned some about axis and scale control, accurate measurement, added some sweep, progressively reduced the dims going outward, dipped and rounded the wingtips a bit and added some tip flare.  I kept the original section, just reduced, until the last few inches.  Couple of different textures (neither good) applied. 

I am also seeing a much easier way to do this that should allow for 15 minutes all in. 
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 12, 2022, 02:13:07 PM
Here is a video i made this morning that may give a better idea of how sweet this tech is.  Amazing to me (still) that you can do this kind of thing and record live screen capture on device, cord free, using essentially a cell phone processor.  Things are getting wild.  What a great way to communicate product ideas, collaborate or brainstorm concepts. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgEI2L_rR-8
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: PonoBill on November 12, 2022, 11:03:06 PM
Wild shit. Mine should be here on Monday. I have my trusty Prusa printer almost back in service. By the way, if you ever decide you want a 3D printer the best I've seen is Bambu Labs. I did a Kickstarter thing and got one reasonably cheap. I thought the tech sounded good but didn't expect much. It's definitely next level by every measure. I'm waiting for a hardened steel nozzle so I can print carbon-filled polycarbonate. I've done a bit of it for my Faux Drives and it's almost like aluminum in terms of strength, though I'm still shedding parts from my folding prop if I give it full throttle. "So don't give it full throttle, Bill"  "What's the fun in that??"
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 13, 2022, 04:54:06 AM
That Bambu printer looks amazing.  Have you tried making any molds using it?  That looks really interesting for short run carbon layup stuff.  Can your Bambu machine be upgraded to the high temp parts or is it a new machine?  I will be happy to buy in to either. 
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: PonoBill on November 13, 2022, 03:24:57 PM
It has high-temperature heads to start with. I bought the hardened printheads for printing abrasive materials like carbon-reinforced polycarbonate. I haven't done mols with this printer, but I've made a mold for doing carbon forging. A messy process, but it made a nice part.
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 14, 2022, 02:33:37 AM
I am very interested in all of that.  Looks like reasonably high quality small parts could be direct printed or really nice parts (small and larger) could be done through a mold process. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25PmqM24HEk

Looks like you could direct print some suitably strong parts with your new capabilities.  Is it right that this machine (Bambu Carbon)  is $1,500.00?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-4b0ZE7vnQ

Stoked to see your machine in the spring.  Let me know when you get your Quest Pro.
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: PonoBill on November 14, 2022, 10:23:53 AM
Yup, 1500 unless you want to auto-switch filaments, which I have no interest in but carseat would love. I got mine for quite a bit less on Kickstarter. Bambu sold 6000 machines in their KS project. They're just now digging out of it and about ready to sell to non-KS.

That Easy Composites guy is flat-out evil. I watch all his videos and try a lot of the stuff. Its the source of my fascination with forged carbon. Hugely talented guy, but what a time sink. My first project when I get back will be a carbon/kevlar bash plate for my KTM 390 Adv bike. I'm hugely tempted to do it in forged carbon, but it would probably turn my entire shop into a sticky mess. Find his video on doing a sled for an artic pole attempt using infusion in molds. My head was spinning with ideas for days. But anyone who has done infusion knows that you throw away at least two trashcans worth of consumables for every part you make. With my clumsiness and distracted approach to everything, it's more like five trashcans.

This video is even more seductive for anyone who has a 3D printer and wants to make stronger parts. I probably have 200 hours into making this work. It's probably how I will make my bash plate. 3D scan the bottom of the bike, turn the scan into four parts and trim it up. 3D print and fit together with pins. Bag in the Carbon and Kevlar. Toss the whole thing away and try again. It's also how I plan to rework my pseudo foil drive project using the hollow board Mark gave me. I'll rip out a few days worth of work to do it. Yay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ND2WtEZatY
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 15, 2022, 12:15:21 AM
Yes!  I got sucked into those videos as well.  Made me think I could do it on the kitchen counter in a clean shirt, sipping on a hoity toity.  Have you tried that oven bake only prepreg?  I will be ready to play by spring...if I can hold off that long.  Is it a bad sign that Google is now returning results for small prepreg autoclave?  I thought so.  $1500 is actually a little scary for all the Bambu needs to do but, the reviews are great and yeah, Carson will freak.  He has a Bearded Dragon coming for his B day, prenamed, Fierce Pierce, so we can build some colorful habitat toys that may not even be that toxic.  Oh, the places you'll go...

Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: PonoBill on November 15, 2022, 02:25:20 PM
PLA is your friend indoors. The fumes take a lot longer to kill you than PET, ABS, or Polycarbonate.

As I said, that guy is evil. I started building my own autoclave using a 250 gallon propane tank and only managed to stop myself when I realized I'd never used prepreg and probably wasn't going to. I know the quality of my work would ratchet up mucho levels if I had monogrammed shirts. I'm going for it, I'm sketching up logos for Marblehead Motowerks as we speak (Diane named the shop Marblehead since it was a marble cutting biz before I bought the building and some sideways reference to the density of my Cranium).
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 16, 2022, 02:30:24 AM
I made the mistake of downloading Bambu Studio.  Man is that cool!  I had to preorder, but at least for the moment they are saying December.  I don't know anything about 3D printing so tons to learn, but it accepted my obj file straight from Gravity Sketch which is crazy cool.  Straight from VR to 3D printer.  Mind blowing.  Print area is too small for this test file at full scale but it looks like cuts are pretty straight forward which could be sweet for glue up reverse molds.

I figured out a few nice ways to do recessed attachment points with any dimensions and shape in Gravity Sketch with sub millimeter measurements so that is nice.  I made some progress on a split block mold but I am guessing there is a much better way or  an intermediate app that will automate that. 
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: PonoBill on November 16, 2022, 09:52:03 AM
While you're flinging money around willy nilly take a look at Revopoint. I think I have the mini in Hood River. I bought the original to play with and then realized my brother could make more use of it, so I sent it to him. Then later I got seduced by a Kickstarter project (I have to quit doing that) and bought whatever they were offering. It's sitting tanned, rested, and ready--unused at the shop, but diving into this meta stuff it's certain that won't be getting dusty once I get back. It's 3D scanning that can go straight to print or be edited and restructured to suit, along with the software to manipulate the heck out of it. My first project when I get back will be to scan the bottom of my dirt bike so I can 3D print a mold for laying up a carbon/kevlar bash plate. Combining that capability with the meta gravity manipulation and the Bambu printer has me considering an early return to Hood River. Just too fucking exciting.

The easy composite video on making direct printer 3D molds shows how to print large molds in multiple pieces. It's generally easier to get complex shapes out of molds if they are multi-piece anyway. Looking at the combination of these three technologies to make forged carbon molds to build wings is just more exciting than I can take. I've got all the stuff at the shop to vacuum bag carbon, but building molds is always the stopper. This could easily be the solution.
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 16, 2022, 10:24:21 AM
I am getting Willy Nilly monogrammed on my shirts now.  How do we not have this suck and bake oven?  https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/ov301-precision-curing-oven .  Thing is Brilliant and almost 1.1 Meter internal.  With a little angle, that will fit any parts we would do.  That autoclave free prepreg process looks incredible...and tidy.  It may be simplest to to use a glued up multipart print as the (infilled/semi hollow) carbon core and laminate prepreg on top of that??  That sounds slick.  You could maybe even use longer stock carbon stiffening rods at full length if needed.  I don't know if any of that works but it seems cool.
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: PonoBill on November 16, 2022, 12:21:11 PM
Tidy is absolutely my primary goal. Ovens are kind of easy, autoclaves in the composite sense generally get pressurized, sometimes a lot. That's a pretty little thing but it's not an autoclave. Still, that's very cool. and has a lot more capacity than a home oven. 1800 bucks, not bad.
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: PonoBill on November 16, 2022, 08:08:48 PM
I love the idea of doing hollow wings with a lattice that's 3d printed as the core. I was talking with Kane about that last year. It could easily be printed in three parts. and then glassed and carboned to make the usable wing. Of course, it probably makes more sense to do something like 20% infill with a strong pattern like rotating polygons and just glue the parts together and glass. The first few layers would have to be lightly bagged or it would squish up like a plastic water bottle. The mind boggles.
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: tarquin on November 16, 2022, 10:24:02 PM
I love all those Easycomposit vids. I buy epoxy from them. Their laminating epoxy is cheap and really good. The guys are super helpful too. They always reply to my stupid questions within a day or two.
 They had to open a warehouse in the north of France because of Brexit. So I can get stuff from them in 2 days( that's fast for France).
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: tarquin on November 16, 2022, 11:54:10 PM
As if by magic I just got an email from Easycomposits.
https://www.easycomposites.eu/learning/mouldless-carbon-fibre-aero-wing
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 17, 2022, 12:42:00 AM
Tidy is absolutely my primary goal. Ovens are kind of easy, autoclaves in the composite sense generally get pressurized, sometimes a lot. That's a pretty little thing but it's not an autoclave. Still, that's very cool. and has a lot more capacity than a home oven. 1800 bucks, not bad.

Yes!  Out of Autoclave is a pretty confusing name.  That Xpreg stuff looks Amazing.  https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/xc110-210g-22-twill-3k-prepreg-carbon-fibre Great looking results with a vacuum oven only.  No Autoclave Prepreg would be a better name.  The vid below uses the Xpreg and has a bit of detail and the process looks much more manageable than any of the wet layup systems.  The vid Tarquin posted looks Amazing but that would drive me nuts.  Honestly, until yesterday, I thought all prepreg needed an autoclave.

I love the idea of a multipart printed wing laminated with a basically dry process straight into a bag in a suck oven with a vacuum controller.  How slick is that? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfrFaKDsJxc

https://youtu.be/PMXrmvLpvhA
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 17, 2022, 02:30:36 AM
Man is this sweet.  I took my most recent test file from Gravity sketch, still using a random foil section from online (could be any section or multiple sections, or...) and imported it into Bambu Studio scaled at 100% which I had set to 1000 mm Long by 135 mm wide.  This is a pretty high aspect deal but not uncommon.  I then sliced it into 3 pieces.  I just went with vertical cuts at 90 degrees but we can make cuts on any plane so we could easily increase glueable surface for better adhesion.  We could also probably interlock the sub parts or use carbon dowels, or...endless.  The software auto creates all of the new outer walls and 9 types of internal structures for the new sections (walls, infills, overhang supports, etc).  There are 20 stock options for sparse infills alone.  Holy Shit!  Below I isolated just the sparse infill layer that would be printed for the center section in three of the available options (grid, Tri Hex and lightning, yeah, that was basically just a "oh, yes we can").  Essentially, all layers are editable as well so you an really lighten things up a lot, or strengthen if needed.  We can also (where applicable)  print the individual layers in different filaments.  It will also allow us to print multiple segments at once and will auto arrange them on the plate for us.  Wowzers.  This is going to be fun!

PS: please pay no attention to the recessed area on my example. I was messing around with a lot of recessed shapes and I saved a stupid one.
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: PonoBill on November 17, 2022, 07:04:52 AM
This is a very familiar rabbit hole. Once you have a printer your guitar practice time will suffer, though there's plenty of waiting around if you only have one printer.

So far the best thing about the Bambu printer is that it's smarter than the operator. Most of the stuff I've had to do manually is handled. Well, that plus making the best-looking parts I've ever printed, being twice as fast as my old Enders and Prusa, and fixing mistakes on the fly. The first layer in a print is critical, but any screwups, like an inadequately supported overhang, can yield a pile of spaghetti that the printer just happily continues to build. Not only does the printer do perfect first layers, and tell me on my phone if there's a problem, but it also catches problems during the print and actually fixes some of them. Anything it can't fix it stops and yells for help, showing the problem on my phone. Next level is probably an overstatement, but it's damned good.

Prepreg is wonderful but expensive. I've done some car parts with it (and anything baked in our oven tasted a little weird for a few weeks). For parts that will fit in that oven, the cost isn't heart-stopping, but they can't be low value, large area. I also turned a small roll of prepreg that was supposed to be OK at room temperature into a very expensive, not-very-useful tube by ignoring it for a few weeks. I wouldn't jump into it without refrigerated storage. A cheap chest freezer modified with an external thermostat would probably be fine.
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: PonoBill on November 17, 2022, 07:55:40 AM
If this doesn't give you a stiffy then you're not sufficiently geeky. Brother Bob has a CAM router. It will be easy to get him excited about these projects (he's as nuts as I am) though we'd be shipping stuff back and forth to massatushits.

https://youtu.be/jsT561opKrU

This video is boring but incredibly valuable for bagging. I still struggle with getting a perfect seal, here are all the answers for anyone else who has the same problems.
https://youtu.be/2vEKODxJu7I
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 19, 2022, 06:42:06 AM
This is a very familiar rabbit hole. Once you have a printer your guitar practice time will suffer, though there's plenty of waiting around if you only have one printer.

So far the best thing about the Bambu printer is that it's smarter than the operator. Most of the stuff I've had to do manually is handled. Well, that plus making the best-looking parts I've ever printed, being twice as fast as my old Enders and Prusa, and fixing mistakes on the fly. The first layer in a print is critical, but any screwups, like an inadequately supported overhang, can yield a pile of spaghetti that the printer just happily continues to build. Not only does the printer do perfect first layers, and tell me on my phone if there's a problem, but it also catches problems during the print and actually fixes some of them. Anything it can't fix it stops and yells for help, showing the problem on my phone. Next level is probably an overstatement, but it's damned good.

Prepreg is wonderful but expensive. I've done some car parts with it (and anything baked in our oven tasted a little weird for a few weeks). For parts that will fit in that oven, the cost isn't heart-stopping, but they can't be low value, large area. I also turned a small roll of prepreg that was supposed to be OK at room temperature into a very expensive, not-very-useful tube by ignoring it for a few weeks. I wouldn't jump into it without refrigerated storage. A cheap chest freezer modified with an external thermostat would probably be fine.

Yes, this seems like a great time to get into this with a lot of the really fiddly stuff already worked out.   The slicing software alone is freaking brilliant! 

It is crazy to me what we can do now.  This morning I downloaded a new NACA profile, sent it to Gravity Sketch and used it to do a new 1008 x 192 front foil. Sent that to Bambu Studio and auto sliced it for print.  I tried a few different ways but here is the goofiest one that Bambu was OK with.  The image below is "mid print" so it shows the grid infill at this orientation but not the top surface of each sub part.  The print supports are also not shown. 

I am going to get that oven for prepreg or similar.  That sounds too fun to pass on.  They suggest bagging all prepreg at full vacuum so just under 30in/hg.  The concern is what is going to happen to our lovely print at that sucky sucky while baking at the suggested (peak cure temp) of 120 C.  The PA CF filament from Bambu has a VICAT temp of 210 C, Heat Deflection Temp of 160 C and Melting temp of 220 C.  That seems like enough headroom, but, we will see :).  We have a lot of things to try if we implode at first.  :). Once we have it worked out though, we can rapid test a shitload of designs for carbon core front and rear wings.  This is going to be fun! 
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 20, 2022, 03:16:54 AM
In this video he mentions 8 hours at only 86 C so I am unsure why the 120 C is quoted now.  The part looks phenomenal and this would be a way more complex deal than a wrapped foil. 

This looks like a pretty manageable process.  I am stoked to try it.

https://youtu.be/cQ1Q4XmItN0?list=PL852iqhMMbWLMDEAIRKN6qkrZAbUayITH
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: tarquin on November 20, 2022, 07:19:28 AM
A mate of mine is a rigger and he has been printing deck fittings for sail boats. They are scanning old bronze fittings and printing them in a plastic and aluminium mix. He said they are really strong and light. Maybe something like this would hold up better to the heat and pressure?
 
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 20, 2022, 08:02:33 AM
A mate of mine is a rigger and he has been printing deck fittings for sail boats. They are scanning old bronze fittings and printing them in a plastic and aluminium mix. He said they are really strong and light. Maybe something like this would hold up better to the heat and pressure?

Thats really cool.  I am not sure if consumer printers will manage that but I will check.  I know that PEET is a super high temp filament but I don't think the consumer printers will melt it.  I have a feeling (hah!) we are going to be OK with the PA-CF stuff but I am fully expecting many failures :)
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: PonoBill on November 20, 2022, 09:06:31 AM
You don't have to own a high-end printer, there are lots of printing facilities using advanced materials and tech. I was corresponding with one that does laser-sintered titanium ceramic. If worse comes to worst there are lots of lights-out automated machine shops that will make about anything you want for a few hundred bucks. As I recall, some of the guys in the Faux Drive group were using some to make aluminum folding props. I'll probably have to go that way eventually, my PC and PC/CF ones are flying apart at higher RPM.
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 20, 2022, 09:49:26 AM
You don't have to own a high-end printer, there are lots of printing facilities using advanced materials and tech. I was corresponding with one that does laser-sintered titanium ceramic. If worse comes to worst there are lots of lights-out automated machine shops that will make about anything you want for a few hundred bucks. As I recall, some of the guys in the Faux Drive group were using some to make aluminum folding props. I'll probably have to go that way eventually, my PC and PC/CF ones are flying apart at higher RPM.

That is a solid backup plan if plan A fails.  :)
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: PonoBill on November 20, 2022, 10:53:47 AM
If/when I get rid of a bunch of motorcycles and move the rest to either one of my containers or another part of the shop I could devote the front wall of my shop to this kind of fabrication stuff. The shop has wiring in place to power massive stone-cutting and polishing machinery. It will take a little time to set up, but having 3D printing, laser cutting, prepreg freezer, and oven all in one place sounds like a nice setup to me.
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: tarquin on November 20, 2022, 12:01:33 PM
 Yes he is getting a company to do it as Pono said. He dosn't have a printer.
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: PonoBill on November 20, 2022, 08:33:37 PM
Printer tech is getting insane--sprinting off into uncharted territory. SpaceX is printing the most critical parts of the Raptor engines. People have been talking for some time about the possibility of 3D printing alloys and mixtures that would be impossible to cast or forge because the differential densities of the components would cause them to separate. I thought it was still sort of theoretical. It's not. I started digging this morning and found an entire range of printers and printing tech that prints unobtanium and impossibilium without breaking a sweat.
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on November 21, 2022, 12:01:01 AM
The master…

Pono, get one of these systems.


 https://youtu.be/nyYcomX7Lus (https://youtu.be/nyYcomX7Lus)
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 21, 2022, 01:22:29 AM
If/when I get rid of a bunch of motorcycles and move the rest to either one of my containers or another part of the shop I could devote the front wall of my shop to this kind of fabrication stuff. The shop has wiring in place to power massive stone-cutting and polishing machinery. It will take a little time to set up, but having 3D printing, laser cutting, prepreg freezer, and oven all in one place sounds like a nice setup to me.

That sounds great!  I have a spot for the printer, vac/oven/pump assembly and a freezer and my work bench.  I have 220 there.  It is all ordered, so, it should be here when you get back.

I did some snowboard binding highbacks just now in Gravity Sketch that will fit on three of our existing models. That one would require a mold and that unidirectional prepreg but we have that covered.  I figured out a way to do really clean molds in GS, so it all rides on our filiment holding up in the oven.  We'll see:)  This stuff has my mind spinning...and I love it. 
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 22, 2022, 06:22:34 AM
Wow, what a satisfying way to design.  The control and precision that this environment allows  is the stuff of dreams.  Check this out. 

Here is a new wing section.  This time I scaled it first to a baseline of 7.5 inches chord length.  My length goal was a ten four (1040 mm) because ten four is fun to say.

Gravity sketch allows you to mount an image to any axis plane and has measuring tools which will snap to any axis.  I then traced in the section.  (green).
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 22, 2022, 06:29:36 AM
Then I brought in some resources to shape in the fuselage attachment.  The photos images are just for shape reference.  Software allows you to bring in any reference material and place it in the scene.  I can't show you because the headset will not record video of passthrough mode, but with that enabled you can hold the actual object alongside (or inside) your virtual model.  Trippy.  I have measurements of the fuselage head from my micrometer.  That is really the best way to go (aside from a 3D scan).  Then I downloaded a protractor image (tested its accuracy) and imported it.  I snapped that to the plane .  This allows me to set a base for the flat bottomed fuselage head.  That angle will determine incidence.  I drew a (yellow) line on the plane at - 2.5 degrees in relation to the foils chord line.  The foil images are all set with their chord line at 0 degrees, which is awesome.  If you are careful not to touch that angle, the foil stays at 0 degrees as you build.  Setting a negative base plane will lead to positive incidence.  Plus 2.5 degrees for the front wing is very common for performance wings.  With that we have all the info we need to place the head.
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 22, 2022, 06:45:38 AM
Then I pulled the wing to 520 mm (Later I will mirror this half to get to a symmetrical ten four).  The fuse head dimensions will not fit inside the confines of this section at this aspect.  You see this on a lot of foils.  You can also see why the black fuses came along.  So we have to get creative. Symmetrically expanding the existing section at the center only is one way.  I did that first.  This makes enough room and it could certainly be tweaked but it looks awkward to me.  The last image shows me replacing the original section with a very similar (beefier) section from the same series.   That is really cool because the software smoothly morphs from one section to the other in a nice organic curve.  Math!!!  This will also create a nice little base rib.  I was just getting started refining this when I got my low battery warning.  It needs a little upwards nudge but...More soon...
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: jondrums on November 22, 2022, 09:26:44 AM
Most front wings have a little bit of twist (washout) as you go from the root to the tips.  About 2deg is what I am seeing on wings I've measured. 
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 22, 2022, 12:12:06 PM
Most front wings have a little bit of twist (washout) as you go from the root to the tips.  About 2deg is what I am seeing on wings I've measured.

Yeah Jon! You have to work to get that measurement in reality-reality.

I have been playing with that and finally have control over it with the addition of the protractor.  At 2.5 degrees of flare or washout that would essentially flatten the chord line at the tip to back to zero degrees (on this example foil).  I think they are just adding the washout at the last few inches rather than the whole span.  We can put a control loop anywhere on the span and twist from there only.  That leaves our desired angle for most of the foil.  We can also graduate the twist amount as we move outward. 

I am finding it best to work from the eventual centerline outwards and do frequent "save as" to stay non-destructive.  GS has I think 50 history steps but you can exceed that pretty quickly :). 

Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: jondrums on November 22, 2022, 02:26:12 PM
super cool!
I agree its the last third of the wing that has gradual introduction of washout peaking at or near the wingtip
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 23, 2022, 04:55:15 AM
I palyed around a bit more and ended up doing this.  I took the section I had used for the foil and inverted it.  Once lined up I used the bottom half to shape the middle loop only as a symmetrical section. The first two images are the before and after.   That created a nice little base rib.  I pulled that out a bit to add some real estate for our fuse head.  In the last shot I placed my incidence line.  Ready now to shape in the head well.
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 23, 2022, 04:57:43 AM
I started by pulling down the surface by edge loops.  The software snaps each point to the yellow incidence line and the hand controller gives a little haptic "well done, lad".  So cool! Then I refined the well a bit with additional control points that helped box it up a bit.  Checked the size, and we are looking good.  We have extra room to pack some prepreg inside and  I will shape and print a solid dummy head that we can slather with release agent and bag and bake in our well when we do the wing (or we could use an actual aluminum head, which would probably be best.  Once we do some test cooks and see what we are getting.  we can really take some time and refine this so all the surround contours match up perfectly.
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: jondrums on November 23, 2022, 01:23:40 PM
honestly, this all looks pretty much like any of the many high end 3D surfacing/modelling CAD software that's available today.   I suppose a lot of the draw here is that you can see it with the 3D goggles?
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: Admin on November 23, 2022, 01:42:01 PM
honestly, this all looks pretty much like any of the many high end 3D surfacing/modelling CAD software that's available today.   I suppose a lot of the draw here is that you can see it with the 3D goggles?

Yes, I don't want sound Steve Jobsy, but it is really a case of a new technology stimulating creativity.  I am mad-posting this stuff (full apologies) because I have never been more stoked and invigorated by a new mode.  It makes it so you can walk around the model and assets and see it like you had the actual product with you.  That part is impossible to convey with 2D images or video.  It makes visualization and manipulation so natural.  There is nothing that you could do with this that could not also be accomplished in a 2D program, but the visibility and intimacy is light years ahead.
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: tarquin on November 24, 2022, 03:41:21 AM
https://youtu.be/Pi-2pPDWC1w
 Self pumping foil?
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: PonoBill on November 24, 2022, 07:46:30 AM
If that doesn't simultaneously amaze and freak you out then you need more caffeine to get your brain engaged.
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: tarquin on November 29, 2022, 12:55:42 PM
Faster than? So short people are faster than tall people?
Title: Re: Foil Madness
Post by: PonoBill on November 29, 2022, 05:28:47 PM
Actually, the optimal size for speed is in the middle of the range they tested. But yeah, being bigger rarely benefits the big person. Every sport I like to do is dominated by short, light people. When I raced motorcycles I felt like Gulliver amidst the lilliputians.
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