Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: SUPeter on July 31, 2022, 03:28:41 PM
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Yes! I made a version of Daves’s Barricuda. Been making boards since I was 13 years old ( so damn heavy, I could not carry it till I was 15 years old) and am not ready to stop now. The “Nikola Tesla”’of foil board design has truly out done himself. This is self evident in the following fact alone. A lot of people are copying his genius .
For a specific reason, I decided to make mine a tad wider( 8’ x 20” x 6”, - 114L) I weigh 165 lbs. Not only will it help to stabilize me on downwinders, I figured it might also help to stabilize me during the often turbulent entry onto standing river waves. This wave has eluded my every attempt at gaining any significant foil time. Typically , it would become a very short, out of control bumpy ride caused by the many boils emanating off the ledgy bottom. Unable to cross the even more turbulent eddy line guarded by walls of kelp, my only access was by rope, a sometimes lethal addition to any moving water.
Until now!
5-10 minutes consecutive minutes of foiling bliss!
The Barricuda board design is possibly the best suited answer to my years long dilemma.
Here’s why-
1) obviously, it’s faster under paddle power. Fast enough to catch this wave as I descend from upstream, moving backwards at about 6-8 mph.
2) the increased length adds to increased stability for a board only 20” wide.
3) the increased length of the nose has more inertia to mitigate the often powerful upward lift created by the boils.
4) the lightweight nose allows for quick maneuverability needed to stay high in the power zone.
Began on the Axis SP 860 which is a great size when the wave is medium to large.
Still trying to dial in my foil selection for use when wave is small and slow.
Any recommendations!
One more thing! Flatwater pop-ups have become commonplace and a great form of downwinder training. ( Axis PNG 1150, 460 tail, 75 cm mast)
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Video! Maybe?
https://youtu.be/JHmngRrSNcE
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Talk about making the most of your local conditions! That's great! The beauty of foiling is the potential it unlocks. I contacted my local shaper about whether he had drawn any Barracuda style boards and he replied with a pic of the blank being CNC'd that day!
I'm interested in one to start doing deflated downwinders with a paddle. I have good potential downwind opportunities but the logistics suck, so being able to wing upwind and then come back home with the added security of a paddle is the aim, especially as I would have to cross a busy shipping lane.
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I made a super-short blade out of half of a cracked KeNalu Molokai blade that I can slip into my fake boom for a usable paddle. I use one of the boom's reversed velcro straps to hold the blade in place. Works great, I've paddled my foil board about a mile with it when my wing popped. The blade is attached at the nose of the board with velcro and a bungee strap.
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That's a great idea. I could see a convertible boom/paddle being a useful tool in future with a compatible wing. My next wings have solid handles so not such an elegant solution there. I had considered that hand paddles would also be a light weight back up plan. The objective is 1) learn how to flat water paddle up and 2) to do the downwind with the wing packed on my back so the wing gets me to the start and paddle would the primary downwind weapon which has the added benefit of being a plan B if the wind dies.
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Another note,
After paddle this 8' x 20" DW board around in many different conditions such as wind blown swell, river current boils. I'm convinced that the narrower the board, the more stable it becomes in choppy waters. The mast and foil provide more stabilizing action when there is less lateral hull being lifted by oncoming waves. People have often said narrow sea kayaks are more seaworthy than wide sea kayaks. The wide kayaks have a strong tendency to roll side to side with wave action from abeam.
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I sold my 7'6 x 31" JL Super Frank to a guy who bought it specifically for surfing the Blue Hill wave. I wonder if he was able to make it work. He said he had never surfed the ocean. All he did was SUP this wave.
Great video. That foil board shreds. Show some more if you can.
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Peter, I'm very impressed with your build. Planning to build one myself. Would a wave piercing bow help the design, and are bevels really necessary on a board only 20 inches wide?
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Please post some images of your board. Thanks!
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Here's our version from down under , I'm just on 200lb plus haven't stood on a Sup for many years so I went 8-0 x 21 x 120 litres , teamed up with the Axis 1300 this thing is crazy stable. Managed to flat water pump it up in the first 10 mins so pretty impressed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpg7SMx5jfY
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Here's our version from down under , I'm just on 200lb plus haven't stood on a Sup for many years so I went 8-0 x 21 x 120 litres , teamed up with the Axis 1300 this thing is crazy stable. Managed to flat water pump it up in the first 10 mins so pretty impressed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpg7SMx5jfY
Piros, this looks freaking amazing! Such clean lines. Offbeat question for you. Could you / Can you swim it into downwind bumps?
PS: 75 Mast?
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Peter, I'm very impressed with your build. Planning to build one myself. Would a wave piercing bow help the design, and are bevels really necessary on a board only 20 inches wide?
The narrower hull created with bevels allows less surface area touching the water during touchdowns and lessens surface drag. Very much an important part of overall design.
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Board pics, I hope?
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I was never good at pics.,
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Man, does that look nice! Terrific build. How much does it weigh? I'd love to see the deck also.
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Here's our version from down under , I'm just on 200lb plus haven't stood on a Sup for many years so I went 8-0 x 21 x 120 litres , teamed up with the Axis 1300 this thing is crazy stable. Managed to flat water pump it up in the first 10 mins so pretty impressed.
Piros, this looks freaking amazing! Such clean lines. Offbeat question for you. Could you / Can you swim it into downwind bumps?
PS: 75 Mast?
Yes for sure and that's the plan to also prone paddle it offshore and do a downwind , crash and restart without the paddle . I've got a pretty good set of prone paddling arms . My prone boards generally range from 19" to 19"-3/4 wide so this at 21 will be fine . Just need the right conditions.
Yes 75 mast & SUPeter that's a great looking board , well done.
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Yes for sure and that's the plan to also prone paddle it offshore and do a downwind , crash and restart without the paddle . I've got a pretty good set of prone paddling arms . My prone boards generally range from 19" to 19"-3/4 wide so this at 21 will be fine . Just need the right conditions.
Yes 75 mast
That is exciting to hear. I have seen guys getting in on downwind boards "proning" from their knees with paddle gloves but not flat swimming (freestyle). Is your board flat (base plane) from the tail pin through the foil-box? How far forward does it stay flat? Is that a single box or two end to end?
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We are running 16" Chinook boxes so ATM we are mid box apx 28" from tail with another 4" fore & aft . No kneeling or paddles planned just the arms . The board is very flat with little or no rocker.
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We are running 16" Chinook boxes so ATM we are mid box apx 28" from tail with another 4" fore & aft . No kneeling or paddles planned just the arms . The board is very flat with little or no rocker.
Thank you! Please let us know how it goes.
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Admin, we have guys here in LA paddling in lying down on these. Saw one practicing at a local mushy break. Have heard if they are doing it in bumps yet but I'll bet they are.
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Admin, we have guys here in LA paddling in lying down on these. Saw one practicing at a local mushy break. Have heard if they are doing it in bumps yet but I'll bet they are.
Sweet! I found a few guys getting in on small boards in the Gorge and the one from Maui (below). All look like a hard, short burst with a quick jump up. They are basically doing a flatwater pump start from there. Very cool in itself. I am wondering if a different approach might be possible for the lesser powered hand start for prone swimming. Rather than designing a board for stand up paddle power (and the needed stability and bounceability for that purpose) or swim to leg pump starts, coming at it from the prone paddleboard perspective. A 12 foot prone paddleboard is relatively easy to get into Maliko bumps or South Shore bumps (for instance) and maintain good glides. It would be unwieldy with a foil under it, though. The displacement design is so fast compared to planing designs at these "low" speeds that you can glide into bumps with modest arm power. I wonder how far you could reduce that design for use with a foil. A gunned out 8 foot full displacement board with a foil? Possible for belly foiling on downwind bumps? Foil tech has come so far now with some great looking low drag high lift options. It seems doable.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CgvUHhkjZ35/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dzZFaj8O1w
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=757723071276892
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https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=757723071276892
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Those are all pretty old clips. The barracuda is easier from the reports I'm getting. But mainly it's still easier to use a SUP to downwind. The gap from laying down paddling, to getting to your feet is the problem. You need a better bump to get going prone. On the barracuda SUP you can get going on almost any bump that comes along.
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https://www.instagram.com/p/CjarC0vI5Lu/
This is my brand new 7'6 x 18 - 86L
This board allows me to take off with aa smaller foil (axis art 999) on tricky conditions such as crossed big ground swell.
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Terrific FF! Would you post some images of your board?
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Terrific FF! Would you post some images of your board?
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I can flat water the axis art 999 easily which I coudn't do with mt 6'0 x 21.5
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Looks great! You are ripping on it!
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I can flat water the axis art 999 easily which I coudn't do with mt 6'0 x 21.5
Jeez Greg your prone paddle take offs in the chop are very interesting. It looks effortless with no wave power and it makes me wonder where this will end. Kane knee paddling up onto foil in the flat and the way knee paddling allowed him to unweight the board off the water was amazing. Maybe a 6'6" X 17" with volume the same as your weight or even a little less could easily knee paddle up in soft condition. Things are changing in DW fast.
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Terrific FF! Would you post some images of your board?
OK so that answers my question about whether there is really any need for side bevels on such a narrow board. I bet those slab rails are more stable than the bevelled ones.
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OK so that answers my question about whether there is really any need for side bevels on such a narrow board. I bet those slab rails are more stable than the bevelled ones.
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It might answer the question about whether they are NECESSARY. But it doesn't answer the question of whether they are beneficial. I tend to think they are, but the only way to know would be an A/B test
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OK so that answers my question about whether there is really any need for side bevels on such a narrow board. I bet those slab rails are more stable than the bevelled ones.
It might answer the question about whether they are NECESSARY. But it doesn't answer the question of whether they are beneficial. I tend to think they are, but the only way to know would be an A/B test
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Science schmience.😉
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Here is my initial take on bevels.
Yes, they are beneficial and better than having a vertically sided board for the following reasons.
1) As the board initially picks up speed it rises slightly out of the water therefore making the board even more narrow, decreasing hull drag further.
2) The beveled sides throw water away from board during the pumping/slapping phase of the take off. I further flare out the rear bevel to enhance the the deflection of water away from the tail.
3) The bevels may help to deflect energy from chop and keep from pushing the board around versus a vertical wall which would be more directly affected by chop.
4) In addition, keeping the hard chines going as far forward as possible helps to enhance the release of water from the nose during that pumping/slapping phase. This may help to reduce drag at take off. I do not find the board any more difficult to handle in relation to tracking on take off.
5) In addition, these narrow boards again are far more stable than they would appear. Less edge leverage provides greater stabilizing influence of the foil and mast producing a platform that does not roll side to side as much as a wider board. The extra length provides increased pitch stability.
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OK, yes that makes good sense thanks for that. What conclusions have you come to wrt volume? Im guessing theres no point in being too corky. What do you think?
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Does anyone have any spec/dims for his board? Looks like a mini version of sup race board with round front deck and somewhat recess standing area. Looks like it just a bit wider than his feet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD7PbV8UFlk
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Does anyone have any spec/dims for his board? Looks like a mini version of sup race board with round front deck and somewhat recess standing area. Looks like it just a bit wider than his feet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD7PbV8UFlk
I think it is a 7'6 x 14, Kane to go super narrow but it is actually to narrow and too low volume for him from what he said.
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I think the correct volume is very important. I weigh 150 lbs and my board volume is 114L. Too much volume and the board will sit too high in the water and become more unstable. My deck floats just above (1/2" or so) the water's surface when I'm standing on it. Of course, with enough deck recessing this instability could be mitigated while going for extra volume but I do not like the idea of a deck which sheds water slowly.
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I had a custom board built by Jeff Clark: 7' 8" X 25" X 120 liters.
This was technically for Big Wave foiling. My downwind aspiring foil amigos all said "Too wide, you need to go 24", or 22" . . ."
Well here was my first attempt downwinding on the board. This thing catches Downwind waves, small waves, and big waves.
It also wings really well. Not the best at pump, but I think that people are going too narrow for the majority of users out there.
https://youtu.be/vWu3JqogJ1A
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Example on a "big" wave:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/q3rqpLl7mPA
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I have talk to a few people(non-SUPer and SUPer) who is progressing down to narrower board(sub 17-19") and they said it doesn't feel as less stable than 23" board. They said the popup/getting on foil is super easy but for the non-SUPer the learn curve was steep initally.
I'm currently on a Kalama custom E3 that is 5'11x22.5" and I have to said its really stable and I can get on foil on non breaking wave. But would like to get on foil even earlier. But its hard to said if its stable for others since before sup foiling I was SUP surfing on sinker SUP so my SUP skill is pretty decent. I think if you have SUP skill you can go pretty sub 20 pretty easily. My next board, I would like it to be around 6'6-7'x 18" so I can get on foil even earlier.
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Hey Beasho,
Any chance you could post up some pics of your board.
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The Wahoo.
I am not convinced this is the best board for big waves, still a bit too slow for truly big fast waves. This video shows where the board was very good. This day the faces were 8 - 12 feet and the board worked well. But I will continue testing.
For downwinding, in the video above, it was GREAT!
https://youtu.be/q3rqpLl7mPA
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Thanks Beasho.
Great lookin board.
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My 20" wide 8 footer is as stable as my 25" wide , 6' 3" downwinder board. Narrower boards are less effected by undulating sea surface and the righting moment and leverage of foil rig has a greater influence on narrower boards.
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OK, yes that makes good sense thanks for that. What conclusions have you come to wrt volume? Im guessing theres no point in being too corky. What do you think?
definitely need to match your weight to volume of board. I weigh 150 lbs and ride a 112-114 L board. The lower it sits in water the more stable you will be. My deck sits about 1/2" above waters surface.
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I can't help but notice the single footstrap. I thought you were nearly religious about the benefits of a rear strap.
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I can't help but notice the single footstrap. I thought you were nearly religious about the benefits of a rear strap.
My religion is stronger than ever. USE STRAPS.
I was trying no back strap because the local young downwind 'grom' (age 34) has been hounding me about going strapless for downwinding.
But we were out during a Mavericks day last week. We run to a protected spot and catch 7 - 12 foot waves at the local foil park. I had the back strap on, but that still wasn't enough and I took off my booties because me feet, with the booties, were still not connected enough on the board.
Here was an example of where this board WAS able to catch the waves. I am now of the belief that these boards GLIDE to catch waves 20% better. BUT they are 10% to 30% harder to stand on meaning that you wobble and roll. Forget about getting hit by whitewater and taking off. For big waves I have been switching back to the "Barn Door" philosophy. Boards > 7' long and 30" wide.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRq3y__A4Bk
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I can't help but notice the single footstrap. I thought you were nearly religious about the benefits of a rear strap.
My religion is stronger than ever. USE STRAPS.
I was trying no back strap because the local young downwind 'grom' (age 34) has been hounding me about going strapless for downwinding.
But we were out during a Mavericks day last week. We run to a protected spot and catch 7 - 12 foot waves at the local foil park. I had the back strap on, but that still wasn't enough and I took off my booties because me feet, with the booties, were still not connected enough on the board.
Here was an example of where this board WAS able to catch the waves. I am now of the belief that these boards GLIDE to catch waves 20% better. BUT they are 10% to 30% harder to stand on meaning that you wobble and roll. Forget about getting hit by whitewater and taking off. For big waves I have been switching back to the "Barn Door" philosophy. Boards > 7' long and 30" wide.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRq3y__A4Bk
Straps definately help me when I am in the surf zone as my feet always tend to stay in the same place during take-off, ride, and pump back out. For downwinding, all that changes as I find myself gradually moving my feet closer together into a more restful position. Downwinding, being so energy consumptive, one needs to conserve every last bit, especially at my age.
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I thought so, but actually, they (Kalama boards) are not just designed or used for pumping. It's very weird seeing most of the good wingfoilers on Maui on Kalama long, skinny boards. Last winter the trend was toward lunch trays. Now I'm a couple of steps behind on a short(??6'2" is SHORT??), wide (6'2"X 30" 125L) board. Everyone is rapturous about how quickly they reach foiling speed. The rap I heard over and over is that as soon as they lift the wing from the water the board is accelerating. I thought this was all about pumping up on flatwater or doing sup or prone downwinders. But no. It's wingfoiling too. And definitely prone as much as SUP.
They're calling boards like mine "doors". I'm a little freaked out with FOMO. With my shit balance, I don't think those are for me. Yesterday a guy looked at my new board and said "That's 125 liters?? It looks much too short for that." WTF?
What I've heard from the prone folks is that as soon as they get to their feet they are at foiling speed or just one pump away.
Pono: Can you speak more to this?
Our local 'kid' (age 34 weight 175 lbs) has been riding his homemade Kalama style board a 6' 1" x 24" @ 110 Liters for
1) Downwind SUP Foil
2) SUP Foil and
3) Winging
The other day I was on my Ocho, 8M CWC in the wind, he was riding a 4.2 and mocking us for the need of bigger wings.
Another session he said "With my 5.5 F-One Strike V2 I can ride in the lightest wind. When everyone was struggling to get on foil with their 6's and 7's I was up and flying immediately - NO PROBLEM!."
He attributes it to the rapid catch of these style boards.
I am thinking "Why fly with an 8.0 if I can get by with a 5.5?"
Alternately in Hawaii why fly with a 5.0 if you can get by with a 3.0 . . ..
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Yes, the conversion of wingboards from short/wide to long skinny has been astounding on Maui. All the cool kids have Barracudas. I'm wobbling around on my "old style" (less than a month old) board with a 7.0 f-one CWC while the cool kids are out on 3.5s. Part of the difference is my weight and age--I need all the help I can get to stand, get up on foil, and then do something useful once I'm up. The Barracuda fleet of 6 and 7 foot boards that are 18-25" wide get up to foil speed as soon as they are standing no matter what size wing they are holding.
You'd think the boards would be hard to turn, but the noses are extremely light, and I suspect that little mass at the end of a long arm gives very smooth pitch control. They certainly turn and pump as well as shorter boards, and when they are going down the line on a wave they are spooky smooth, with no hint of the up and down searching for trim that I see with the shorter boards. Folks here were headed to less than 4', now they're headed toward 8'.
Dave Kalama is AWOL, I haven't seen him on the beach since I got here, he's refining and changing these boards as fast as he can. The Kalama-style boards remind me of Ford vs. Tesla, the copies are at least ten steps behind, and if anything, Dave's boards are still pulling away. I would not have believed all this if I hadn't seen it myself.
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I'm personally excited about the possibility of going to hollow boards that are super lightweight now that we are seeing long thick narrow hull designs. Hollow sucks on wide short thin boards and using foam wins for those type of shapes. But the barracuda shape is screaming to made in a mold with honeycomb composite shell. I think you could get a board as light as the small prone boards but with all the benefits. Bring the tech over from the OC1 and race kayaks
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Yup. The biggest problem with making hollow Barracudas is the investment of time and money to build the molds. And the development is still underway--building a mold kind of locks you in at the point of development that you built the mold. That's why SIC was always kind of slow to change their hollow boards, and once Mark sold the company they pivoted to EPS boards. The only hollow boards were built on Maui, and there were never enough molds to ramp production. Mark was making hollow foil boards for a while but there are no time savings in building hollow boards and it's an impediment to development.
There's also a rejection rate issue since it's a more complex product. The hollow board Mark gave me that I'm using for a boosted board was a reject because the internal PVC foam backing popped loose in one place.
But if you're doing a one-off, then the mold could be a bit less complex. It probably won't be OC1-level production-capable tech, but you could do a sandwich skin in an open mold and glue it together.
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I'll post some ideas to shape-shack when I get around to sketching them. I'm envisioning a build system that wouldn't require a mold, which could be very exciting. The only thing is I think it will require a digital board design and a CNC router
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I'd love to see some video of people winging with those Kalama-style boards.
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In my mind, the theory works well for a neutral or positive buoyancy lightwind board, but I don't really see the benefit on a sinker like the FFB Nugget. On a sinker, I feel like most of the resistance is in bringing the board to the surface - and I can't see the barricuda tail helping there. If Im powered enough to get the board onto the surface, I generally don't have much struggle pumping up onto foil from there (which is where the barricuda would have the most benefit).
I suppose if the board has less resistance on the surface, I might be able to ride a smaller foil - if thats what I was after.
I would love to try one and my suspicions could very well be proven wrong.
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In my mind, the theory works well for a neutral or positive buoyancy lightwind board, but I don't really see the benefit on a sinker like the FFB Nugget. On a sinker, I feel like most of the resistance is in bringing the board to the surface - and I can't see the barricuda tail helping there. If Im powered enough to get the board onto the surface, I generally don't have much struggle pumping up onto foil from there (which is where the barricuda would have the most benefit).
I suppose if the board has less resistance on the surface, I might be able to ride a smaller foil - if thats what I was after.
I would love to try one and my suspicions could very well be proven wrong.
I think that's because you're "overpowered". Now try riding on a day with not enough wind. I can imagine that a low resistance hull can get up to foiling speed with very little pull from the wing allowing you to ride with a much smaller wing or on a day with what others consider not enough wind
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In my mind, the theory works well for a neutral or positive buoyancy lightwind board, but I don't really see the benefit on a sinker like the FFB Nugget. On a sinker, I feel like most of the resistance is in bringing the board to the surface - and I can't see the barricuda tail helping there. If Im powered enough to get the board onto the surface, I generally don't have much struggle pumping up onto foil from there (which is where the barricuda would have the most benefit).
I suppose if the board has less resistance on the surface, I might be able to ride a smaller foil - if thats what I was after.
I would love to try one and my suspicions could very well be proven wrong.
I think that's because you're "overpowered". Now try riding on a day with not enough wind. I can imagine that a low resistance hull can get up to foiling speed with very little pull from the wing allowing you to ride with a much smaller wing or on a day with what others consider not enough wind
That’s why I said it would work for a neutral of positive buoyancy lightwind board. I’m still skeptical on a sinker. If you aren’t powered on a sinker you aren’t going to get the board to the surface and the tail isn’t going to help with that.
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oh, not I got what you meant. Yeah, I agree with that sentiment
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No one I've seen is riding these things as sinkers. The boards are deep from the first third to the tail, and 7' X 19" boards are in the 120l range. And those are the small ones (though I've seen a few 14" wide ones). I'm sure someone will try a sinker barracuda, but they don't really make sense. From seeing how people are riding these things I think the days of tiny boards and sinkers are numbered. Given the way the boards can be constructed the nose (the front third of the board) probably weighs a pound or two. Overall they're practically weightless. A sort, wide, thin board is mostly skin (heavy), and a long, narrow, deep board is mostly foam. They turn like a lunch tray, foil smoothly, and get up on foil with a breath of wind. There has to be a downside, but I haven't seen it, other than they probably aren't for geezers like me, though I just ordered Mark Raaphorst's latest ideas in a board with similar dimensions (7' X 25" 125l) that he's aiming at geezers like me. I hope to see it before I'm 77. Mark has a hideous waiting list.
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my connection to Maui these days is JDfollowcam - and I haven't yet seen anyone on a barracuda style board on there. Looking forward to seeing more of this trend
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No one I've seen is riding these things as sinkers. The boards are deep from the first third to the tail, and 7' X 19" boards are in the 120l range. And those are the small ones (though I've seen a few 14" wide ones). I'm sure someone will try a sinker barracuda, but they don't really make sense. From seeing how people are riding these things I think the days of tiny boards and sinkers are numbered. Given the way the boards can be constructed the nose (the front third of the board) probably weighs a pound or two. Overall they're practically weightless. A sort, wide, thin board is mostly skin (heavy), and a long, narrow, deep board is mostly foam. They turn like a lunch tray, foil smoothly, and get up on foil with a breath of wind. There has to be a downside, but I haven't seen it, other than they probably aren't for geezers like me, though I just ordered Mark Raaphorst's latest ideas in a board with similar dimensions (7' X 25" 125l) that he's aiming at geezers like me. I hope to see it before I'm 77. Mark has a hideous waiting list.
That's a really interesting observation and one I hope to explore personally! I've got my finger ready to pull the trigger on 6'6 x 19 Gong Cruzader as soon as they come into stock. The original idea was to use it for learning paddle ups and eventually deflate DW'ing with a paddle but it sounds like the winging potential could be way bigger than I thought. I do love my sinker though!
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No one I've seen is riding these things as sinkers. The boards are deep from the first third to the tail, and 7' X 19" boards are in the 120l range. And those are the small ones (though I've seen a few 14" wide ones). I'm sure someone will try a sinker barracuda, but they don't really make sense. From seeing how people are riding these things I think the days of tiny boards and sinkers are numbered. Given the way the boards can be constructed the nose (the front third of the board) probably weighs a pound or two. Overall they're practically weightless. A sort, wide, thin board is mostly skin (heavy), and a long, narrow, deep board is mostly foam. They turn like a lunch tray, foil smoothly, and get up on foil with a breath of wind. There has to be a downside, but I haven't seen it, other than they probably aren't for geezers like me, though I just ordered Mark Raaphorst's latest ideas in a board with similar dimensions (7' X 25" 125l) that he's aiming at geezers like me. I hope to see it before I'm 77. Mark has a hideous waiting list.
We might be talking past eachother. When I brought up sinker I was referring to winging.
Look at the FFB Nugget or yet to be released Armstrong boards (and more on the way). Lower volume, shorter wing boards with barracuda inspired tail features. I agree that there is a market for long and narrow east takeoff boards for downwind and lightwind but I disagree that lower volume sinkers are going away. Guys riding wing freestyle and doing serious wave riding aren’t going to be on a 7’ board. They are just going to be two categories.
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Just because...
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wc4eLNi0NIs&feature=shares
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Just because...
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wc4eLNi0NIs&feature=shares
I was just watching that one on Insta :)
I am guessing that is the 6'x 18" 92l Cruzader,smallest one.
Looks super responsive in pitch, would love to give that one a try with the wing to see how much advantage it gives on getting going and how much playfulness you give up vs a flat,shorter shape.
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Kalama inspired custom from Vince Broglio I just received. 7' x 24" 119L. Has fairly steep bevel (chime) for more flat bottom and a chopped square tail for more stability than a V pin-tail. Vince and I had some back and forth on how close to Barricuda it should be. I feel there are too many copies and not enough variations. Not sure when I'll get to try it out but like what we came up with for an easy to use DW board.
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We might be talking past each other. When I brought up sinker I was referring to winging.
Look at the FFB Nugget or yet-to-be-released Armstrong boards (and more on the way). Lower volume, shorter wing boards with barracuda-inspired tail features. I agree that there is a market for long and narrow east takeoff boards for downwind and light wind but I disagree that lower-volume sinkers are going away. Guys riding wing freestyle and doing serious wave riding aren’t going to be on a 7’ board. They are just going to be two categories.
Actually, I'm buying the long Flying Dutchman board mostly for winging. I would have assumed no one would be doing radical wingsurfing with something 7' long, but no. You're probably familiar with Cynbad--she's jumping on one of the things. It looks insane to me, but she was the one that picked her wing out of the water and accelerated away from me before she even sheeted or really got the wing working. I was standing and pumping, totally stunned.
I was indulging in a bit of hyperbole saying sinkers were going away, of course they aren't. And they make a lot more sense for freestyle. For serious wave riding, maybe not so much. Most of the time it seems that a touchdown with a sinker is game over, with the Kalama boards it isn't. That alone could make it some wave wingers board of choice.
My point is that this isn't an isolated trend, or really the special purpose board I originally thought it had to be. And I do think it has already calmed down the move to tiny boards--which for any but the best wingers was a way of showing status in the skill hierarchy, which I shorten up to dick-measuring.
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Just because...
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wc4eLNi0NIs&feature=shares
I was just watching that one on Insta :)
I am guessing that is the 6'x 18" 92l Cruzader,smallest one.
Looks super responsive in pitch, would love to give that one a try with the wing to see how much advantage it gives on getting going and how much playfulness you give up vs a flat,shorter shape.
Not sure, but there was another video posted recently which showed the board details at the end and it was the 6'6 x 19 112L. Either way, shows what can be done, although no footage of Malo actually paddling one slowly in non foiling mode, which would be good to see too...
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Just because...
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wc4eLNi0NIs&feature=shares
I was just watching that one on Insta :)
I am guessing that is the 6'x 18" 92l Cruzader,smallest one.
Looks super responsive in pitch, would love to give that one a try with the wing to see how much advantage it gives on getting going and how much playfulness you give up vs a flat,shorter shape.
Not sure, but there was another video posted recently which showed the board details at the end and it was the 6'6 x 19 112L. Either way, shows what can be done, although no footage of Malo actually paddling one slowly in non foiling mode, which would be good to see too...
If that is the 6.6 then the liveliness of the board is even more impressive.
As for the non foiling paddling...Malo can probably paddle on a beachball and make it look stable :)
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Hi Piros, this thing is sexy. How thin is it please? Also how far is the back of the track to the back of the board please?
Thanks -red
Here's our version from down under , I'm just on 200lb plus haven't stood on a Sup for many years so I went 8-0 x 21 x 120 litres , teamed up with the Axis 1300 this thing is crazy stable. Managed to flat water pump it up in the first 10 mins so pretty impressed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpg7SMx5jfY
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I looked at a board Jeremy Riggs was getting ready to try this morning. My memory sucks but I think it was 6'8"X29". I kept staring at it because I would have sworn it was less than 18" wide. These boards are weird.
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...Malo can probably paddle on a beachball and make it look stable :)
Agree Malo is super talented but I can really see the lag in his turns compared to his usual style on smaller boards, 7Kg for 112L is REALLY heavy... a lot of swing weight. They've gone overboard on the dimensions in their V1 effort, too narrow, too thick and way too heavy (the biggest surprise). Not cheap either at 1200 Euro ???
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I guess it depends on who builds them and what they have in mind. A lot of custom builders leave it up to the buyer to not ding the board. Production, not so much--they need to be strong enough not to get a lot of bad press about their boards being fragile. Yes, 15 pounds for 112L is very heavy (though it kind of depends on where the weight is--there's not much reason for it to be in the last third), but it's not the norm, at least not for custom boards, especially Kalamas. I picked up a huge Kalama board about a week ago. No scale handy but I'd guess less than ten pounds. It felt something like five or six but that's probably impossible. 120L of 1.5 pound foam is about 6#. Figure a pound for tracks and reinforcement, and a half pound for deck reinforcement and you're starting with 7.5 pounds before you glass. I don't think these boards have a lot of glass on them. I'm sure I could fuck one up in less than a week.
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Just for context, the Casey Downwind Elite 6'9 which is 111L is 6.7kg, and costs almost double the Cruzader (well in the UK at least)...
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...Malo can probably paddle on a beachball and make it look stable :)
Agree Malo is super talented but I can really see the lag in his turns compared to his usual style on smaller boards
For sure. Every design is a compromise. When that becomes untrue, you know you are in a moment.
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...Malo can probably paddle on a beachball and make it look stable :)
Agree Malo is super talented but I can really see the lag in his turns compared to his usual style on smaller boards, 7Kg for 112L is REALLY heavy... a lot of swing weight. They've gone overboard on the dimensions in their V1 effort, too narrow, too thick and way too heavy (the biggest surprise). Not cheap either at 1200 Euro ???
Certainly not as turny as on smaller gear, but they say the foil in that video is the 122cmXXL Fluid H with the new fluid largest 47cm stab. I suppose larger board feels better with the larger stab, longboard vs shortboard kind of thing.
Personally It would be nice to be able to get a board like that for that price in my area.
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Agree Malo is super talented but I can really see the lag in his turns compared to his usual style on smaller boards, 7Kg for 112L is REALLY heavy... a lot of swing weight. They've gone overboard on the dimensions in their V1 effort, too narrow, too thick and way too heavy (the biggest surprise). Not cheap either at 1200 Euro ???
Is it that heavy?.
Do not think many production boards ,in any shape, get a lot lighter than 7kg at 112liters.
Hard to say because most of them chicken out from publishing weights.
I know that an 85l 5feet bodyboard shaped wingboard is pretty good at 5 to 5.5 kg.
So 7kg for 6.6 and 112l sounds reasonable to me.
I know that people are building ultralight custom DW boards but IMHO most of them will be waterlogged throwaways in a season.
1.0 density EPS + light glassing + long lenghts + paddles = a great recipe for dings.
It only takes 1 little ding for the EPS to start sucking water.They are often really hard to see.
I am very tempted by this shapes, i think that something like a 6 x 16 x 85l could work pretty good for Upwind/Downwind wingfoiling in my unreliable wind conditions and be a fun pronefoiler in some spots.
Might perpetrate a DIY thingy along those lines next year as i will have more time off.
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Agree Malo is super talented but I can really see the lag in his turns compared to his usual style on smaller boards, 7Kg for 112L is REALLY heavy... a lot of swing weight. They've gone overboard on the dimensions in their V1 effort, too narrow, too thick and way too heavy (the biggest surprise). Not cheap either at 1200 Euro ???
Is it that heavy?.
Do not think many production boards ,in any shape, get a lot lighter than 7kg at 112liters.
Hard to say because most of them chicken out from publishing weights.
I know that an 85l 5feet bodyboard shaped wingboard is pretty good at 5 to 5.5 kg.
So 7kg for 6.6 and 112l sounds reasonable to me.
I know that people are building ultralight custom DW boards but IMHO most of them will be waterlogged throwaways in a season.
1.0 density EPS + light glassing + long lenghts + paddles = a great recipe for dings.
It only takes 1 little ding for the EPS to start sucking water.They are often really hard to see.
I am very tempted by this shapes, i think that something like a 6 x 16 x 85l could work pretty good for Upwind/Downwind wingfoiling in my unreliable wind conditions and be a fun pronefoiler in some spots.
Might perpetrate a DIY thingy along those lines next year as i will have more time off.
A good reason to use Innegra/glass. Two layers of each on rails. Makes them very difficult to ding.
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Just read back and was intrigued by the reference to kids wingfoiling with their Barricuda style boards. I've wingfoiled on my 8'x20" "Barricuda" and have to say it was remarkably easy to get on foil. When I have my mast in the correct position, it is quite an enjoyable ride. Got me to thinking it would make a great winging "adventure" board for those long, lonely downwinders. With little to no wind, you could still make headway to a destination. Less need to worry about always having enough wind. It pumped easily and the extra inertia in the nose stabilized the ride. Of course, it's not as stable while kneeling and getting my front foot in position but that's over once the back foot gets settled. Took some time getting used to it as far as tacking (heel and toe side). Maybe it was me being too worried about catching the nose. To be honest, there is not much more board out in front of me than there is on my 5' 2" wing board.
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Wing foiling a Kalama E3 6'1 x 23" 105L.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lL6ozlTcUs
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To be honest, there is not much more board out in front of me than there is on my 5' 2" wing board.
Yet another issue with V1 Gong, the boxes are a little too far back. I've always been super happy with their products, don't currently own any but I might consider a V2 Cruzader if they make some improvements. Everyone is going to have different requirements, mainly volume but lightweight is a basic need. The Kalama 115L custom I bought used has been through one season and is anything but waterlogged at it's original 12# (5.2Kg). The production versions are about a pound heavier and likely more ding resistant. Regularly available on the used market for 12-1500.
Yup, those are some pretty impressive turns for a 112cm span wing regardless of the board :)
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I forgot to mention in my post above that it's not me in the video. It's just a YouTube video I found while researching the Kalama E3.
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Bumping this thread to get the conversation back going.
I became the proud owner last night of one of Dave's production models - the 8'0" x 21" 111ltr (I'm #205+wetsuit)
I've been bugging him about it for months and finally they got the production run in stock and things all happened fast. Buying from him was a great experience, shipping to my local airport included in the price, and shipping only took as long as a plane flight.
Well, I got it out on the water this morning. A dismal day otherwise with howling onshore winds and short period slop but with some energy behind it. Getting used to standing on this thing was quite a trip. At first it seemed absolutely impossible, but within half an hour I was up and standing even in the terrible conditions. Not easy by any stretch, I would more say - possible. I was still falling a lot with the jumbled conditions but doable.
I had both the strap and the foil in the wrong place, but once I adjusted my approach its a swell catching machine. With the onshore wind, I just paddled directly out to sea as far as I wanted and then turned and grabbed pretty much anything that was clean swell to surf back in. The really nice surprise was that the board pumps almost as well as my short wide "door" foilSUP so I was able to get a few double and triple ups.
Overall a fun time, and I can tell it will only get better as I figure out the tuning/placements.
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I'm almost a month in and I've been exclusively surfing the barracuda in all conditions. Balance on the board is pretty much nailed now, but does take constant focus.
After about a dozen sessions, I decided to take my old "barndoor" style foil SUP out for a spin. I could absolutely not believe how hard it was to catch waves. Its so slow I took it right back in and traded out again. I'll never use it again I reckon.
I've ridden everything from tiny tiny tiny non-breaking waves (the only limit here is when it gets this small it gets shallow too). To big fast long period (not huge like Beasho). Catching waves super early is really fun. This board catches waves.
Riding and pumping works fine and honestly the board is light enough that it all works well. I can feel the size, but you get used to it quickly.
And I've been winging the board as well. For wing on the lighter side or gusty, its really really nice. Never worry about getting up on foil. When the wind is stronger or more consistent, there's no benefit and its much more fun to be on a small board.
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Nice to know. OK so how is handling bigger choppy conditions. I just got the armie 7'7. Have not taken it out in the surf yet cuz of work at the moment, but had a few minutes to take it paddling in some river chop and surprised how stable it was. Ocean will be a different story but its a start.