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The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: kwhilden on May 27, 2022, 01:59:47 PM

Title: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: kwhilden on May 27, 2022, 01:59:47 PM
Just read the hype on KT Boards Ginxu..

The Ginxu’s revolutionary design features the Step Bottom (patented), a cutout on the entire bottom rear 1/3 of the board, including the foil box. This creates an unprecedented connection to the foil, in fact the most direct connection of any foilboard to date. It’s like Gravity Control. For touchdowns, it reduces catching and deceleration leading to getting stuck or falling, because when the bottom of the board now recontacts the water, the rear section and foil are still ‘airborne,’ so you receive Automatic Lift and can easily take back off. Most surprisingly of all it makes it incredibly easy to initially take off, because the moment you get a little bit of speed on the water and the board starts to rise to the waters’ surface, even though the front 2/3rds of the bottom of the board is still in the water, the foil is already out of the water and flying, creating an Ultra Boost, getting you going much quicker than traditional designs.
https://ktsurfing.com/boards-2022/ginxu/ (https://ktsurfing.com/boards-2022/ginxu/)

From what I know about wingboard physics. I don't believe these claims at all.  Seems like they are having a hard time explaining what they like about the board. 

And maybe this design just works better on Maui, where there's plenty of wind. I doubt it would work well as a light-wind board.

Thoughts?

Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: Admin on May 28, 2022, 07:09:06 AM
Whoah!  Good thing they got that patented right away.  That should quell the frenzy to knock off that beauty of a design.
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: PonoBill on May 28, 2022, 07:38:44 AM
After spending money on a patent most folks with more sense than money just tuck them away and forget about them. As a tactic to keep people coming after you claiming to own a design you pioneered--they're fine. As a way to make money by going after infringers, you'd best either be a retired lawyer (the CV of most patent trolls) with nothing better to do or have very deep pockets. The ROI is never there otherwise.  There are exceptions, but they are rare. Generally, when someone says they have a design patent I consider them unsophisticated in business or lying (aka marketing).

As foil designs go, this sounds like a simple extension of the wedge tail, which has also previously been done as a step. Might work in some conditions, but the physical explanation of the concept is typical pseudo-science bullshit. I'm good at translating that since I made my living spewing this kind of crap in the tech world, the home of bullshit bingo. This is a cut and try business. No one is doing testing at a level that would explain why some features of the hull work or don't work. My guess is that you'd hate something like that in surf, and might think it was OK in flatter water.
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: radair on May 29, 2022, 04:13:40 AM
The hype makes sense to me. Reduce the wetted surface and you reduce friction.

Terms like “automatic lift” and “ultra boost” are simply marketing to try to explain the feeling of that reduced friction (or suction).

My biggest concern would be the strength of the board at the stress riser point, right where it gets thin. KT has apparently been testing this for 2 years and likely figured out the construction needed to build them strong enough.
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 29, 2022, 05:01:08 AM
Don’t overlook the radically biased volume distribution to the front. The wrong place for it when schlooging. Translation….tail is going to sink like a rock.

You want a board that floats at the ideal trim angle, to glide onto foil with feet where “they are” when schlooging.

Forget about winging that board in 10-15.
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: Admin on May 29, 2022, 05:17:00 AM
They could certainly have put a few Phazers (OK, speed dimples) on there.  It would have been a bit harder to disguise from rampant Maui foilboard shaper espionage, but a cleverly placed, painted mustache could have solved that.
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: burchas on May 29, 2022, 07:24:46 AM
It looks like SlingShot figured out a better execution for that concept without messing-up volume distribution in their upcoming Wing Raider
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: Vancouver_foiler on May 29, 2022, 07:55:29 AM
I shaped a sup that had all the measurents from the picture extrapolated.
5'6 29 wide 125(?) liters
I was quite shocked at how stable it was. Slow like a slug, but lifted really, really easily. I'll probably make another with better materials than what I used-i used scraps from around my shop.
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: PonoBill on May 29, 2022, 08:20:59 AM
I should patent my foil placement design--I put it on the bottom facing down.

The notion of decreasing the surface area is hardly new, any board with chines, nose rocker, stepped rails, wedged, rockered, or stepped tail is trying to do the same thing. But I agree with DW (as usual)--any board that doesn't sit level to the foil while paddling is going to be dealing with a far more significant drag issue than a little more hull in the water. And if you have to get out of the proper trim position for your foil when you're floating the transition from floating to flying demands that you move your feet (or bodyweight if you're strapped), to foil trim at a critical time when lots of shit is going on, or it's not going to work. And your straps are going to be out of optimal position for one mode or the other. OK for the wizards or anyone who can manage a sinker. For me, I'll stick with a board that floats me in foil trim, even though I can move around on a board surprisingly well for a clumsy geezer.
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: wingdingjoe on May 30, 2022, 09:58:52 AM
It looks like SlingShot figured out a better execution for that concept without messing-up volume distribution in their upcoming Wing Raider

Yes THIS is seemed amazing at first read! Leave your Tnuts attached to the Foil and just SLIDE it on!
Then I thought about it a little more.. Tried to imagine myself lining up first the front then back nuts as I'm carefully Balancing my precious delicate foil in a windy parking lot... Hmmm...

With the Axis "open hole" mast plate... It's really the same but easier.. Leaving the screws always in the board with their little rubber "keepers" and just sliding the bolts into their slots and tightening... Maybe there is another benefit to these "open ended boxes" on the sshot board that I haven't figured out yet??
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: burchas on May 30, 2022, 05:53:02 PM
It looks like SlingShot figured out a better execution for that concept without messing-up volume distribution in their upcoming Wing Raider
... Maybe there is another benefit to these "open ended boxes" on the sshot board that I haven't figured out yet??

If you were a proud owner of a GoFoil setup or an M8 user of a NoLimitz mast it would make more since to you.
It's certainly a nice feature to have but at the bottom of the list of my priorities when purchasing a new board.
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: red_tx on May 30, 2022, 09:07:53 PM
and by the subject line I could have sworn this was spam..

So i clicked it.

I'm with DW and am guessing the ass sinks, which is why the front just comes out of the water. There may be something to your foot being that close to the base plate.

-red
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on May 30, 2022, 10:59:39 PM
I’d be interested to try it. It would be nice to see if it limits touch down crashes. Most of my crashes are high speed touchdowns that are very slow loss of height but grab juuuust more than I can recover from… then I go tumbling.

Only issue I see is that now your mast is an inch shorter, so does it really help unstick if you stick more since you’re closer to the water?
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: PonoBill on May 31, 2022, 07:58:05 AM
Red: I thought so too, though Ginxu Hokum would be a great name for a Tuvan throatsinging band.
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: winddoctor on May 31, 2022, 08:02:39 AM
I've not tried one myself and have all the initial doubts about the design as well but guys I've chatted with who have actually ridden them sure seem to like them! For now I'll ride a more conventional KT shape until I'm certain the step tail is the bomb diggity bomb.
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: wingdingjoe on May 31, 2022, 08:04:44 AM
Shit Bill! Now I have to look up what Tuvan throatsinging is all about! Don't have time for this... Arrgghhh ;D
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: PonoBill on May 31, 2022, 08:18:40 AM
You mean you don't have Tuvan Throatsingers in your playlist! For shame. Any serious Richard Feynman fan knows all about Tannu Tuva, the geographical center of Asia, and throatsinging. I'm a Feynman fanatic, I read his "Lectures in Physics" about every five years. I dragged my wife to a concert. It completely freaked her out. It's much, much spookier in person. Hearing one person make three tones simultaneously while singing over the drones picks the hair on your neck straight up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufG9S6X8FDM 
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: kwhilden on May 31, 2022, 03:16:24 PM
I'm stoked that my post has elicited a reference to Feynman and Tuvan throat signing. Ponobill... you just made my day.  Time to dig out my old copies of Feynman from my days as a physics undergrad.
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: deja vu on June 06, 2022, 11:18:38 AM
I think Tucker is riding one of the KT boards in this video (4:25 mark):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiuTXnx3evU
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: wingdingjoe on June 11, 2022, 08:32:01 PM
Wow!
Three of the most evolved Tuvan throatsingers in the world today... Throwing down jamboree style! I LOVE IT! THANX for sharing Bill!
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: PonoBill on June 11, 2022, 10:06:46 PM
 I've seen Huun Huur Tu in concert several times. One surprise is that these musicians and singers can play a wide variety of instruments, including western ones. And they rock. At one concert some of the members of the Mongolian Heavy Metal group--the Hu--opened for them and some of the members of Huun Huur Tu played along with them. Fucking incredible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM8dCGIm6yc
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: deja vu on June 13, 2022, 07:41:30 AM
For anyone who is actually interested in this board:   :) ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEEIVotA4o0&t=344s
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: Solent Foiler on June 14, 2022, 09:14:56 AM
Another nudge back on topic! Doesn't seem to be game changing tech from this review...

https://youtu.be/jcqzdVbY5b4 (https://youtu.be/jcqzdVbY5b4)
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: VB_Foil on June 14, 2022, 02:17:12 PM
I wonder how it would go as a semi-sinker / sinker.  Would the voluminous front 2/3rds help get the nose up to the surface quicker?
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: StellaBlu on June 14, 2022, 02:54:13 PM
I could see it helping on a sinker.   On some sinker boards I feel like I need to be awkwardly far back to rise the nose. With this volume distribution you could probably center yourself on the board a bit more when starting. 

This volume distribution might also help keep the nose high when landing airs.

That said - I am still a believer in a flatter hull and achieving a similar volume distribution effect by pumping volume into the nose deck area (see Appletree Jazz or FOne Rocket Wing S), versus altering the hull shape so drastically.
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: burchas on June 14, 2022, 05:51:10 PM
Another nudge back on topic! Doesn't seem to be game changing tech from this review...

https://youtu.be/jcqzdVbY5b4 (https://youtu.be/jcqzdVbY5b4)

I guess it depends who you ask. Seems like the poor reviewer was force fed a humble pie :D
My first time on a sinker board felt like a game changer, where the game was rigged against me. He sounded just like me describing my experience after that session :P
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: PonoBill on June 14, 2022, 08:46:57 PM
Oh, is this a thread about boards?
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: burchas on June 14, 2022, 09:23:41 PM
Oh, is this a thread about boards?

It's about sharing humble pie recipes, no?  ???
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: VB_Foil on June 15, 2022, 06:03:56 AM
Another nudge back on topic! Doesn't seem to be game changing tech from this review...

https://youtu.be/jcqzdVbY5b4 (https://youtu.be/jcqzdVbY5b4)

I guess it depends who you ask. Seems like the poor reviewer was force fed a humble pie :D
My first time on a sinker board felt like a game changer, where the game was rigged against me. He sounded just like me describing my experience after that session :P

Yeah, looks like Nuzzo isn't familiar with the Stinkbug start, not that you would expect to need to use it with a board that size.  I'm guessing the Ginxu is a board that will take some muscle memory and technique to dial in. 
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: Solent Foiler on June 15, 2022, 02:15:31 PM
Another nudge back on topic! Doesn't seem to be game changing tech from this review...

https://youtu.be/jcqzdVbY5b4 (https://youtu.be/jcqzdVbY5b4)

I guess it depends who you ask. Seems like the poor reviewer was force fed a humble pie :D
My first time on a sinker board felt like a game changer, where the game was rigged against me. He sounded just like me describing my experience after that session :P

Hmmm, perhaps. I get that he might have had issues with the instability getting started, which is one of / the main drawback of the design (as well as weight), but I still think that he'd be able to articulate the standout benefits of the board (which are supposed to include easy take offs, easy touch downs) if it really does offer something revolutionary. If it's such a difficult design for an intermediate (as a minimum) rider, does it have any business being applied on a board of that size? Maybe at 82L but the range goes up to 120L!

I remain to be convinced, but will keep an open mind. I'm sure the design have some benefits, but there are clear disadvantages too. I've tried to interpret the German reviews, but the auto translate is mainly spouting gibberish...
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: burchas on June 15, 2022, 03:42:21 PM
Another nudge back on topic! Doesn't seem to be game changing tech from this review...

https://youtu.be/jcqzdVbY5b4 (https://youtu.be/jcqzdVbY5b4)

I guess it depends who you ask. Seems like the poor reviewer was force fed a humble pie :D
My first time on a sinker board felt like a game changer, where the game was rigged against me. He sounded just like me describing my experience after that session :P

Hmmm, perhaps. I get that he might have had issues with the instability getting started, which is one of / the main drawback of the design (as well as weight), but I still think that he'd be able to articulate the standout benefits of the board (which are supposed to include easy take offs, easy touch downs) if it really does offer something revolutionary. If it's such a difficult design for an intermediate (as a minimum) rider, does it have any business being applied on a board of that size? Maybe at 82L but the range goes up to 120L!

I remain to be convinced, but will keep an open mind. I'm sure the design have some benefits, but there are clear disadvantages too. I've tried to interpret the German reviews, but the auto translate is mainly spouting gibberish...

Few take aways from his review is that this board is really hard to get started whatever that means. He repeated this mantra few times. In reality this board should be easier to get started if we are to believe the marketing.
The other observation is that this board was not as effective on touchdowns as the drifter which is again counter to what the marketing would have us believe.
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: juandesooka on June 15, 2022, 08:37:02 PM
I've tried to interpret the German reviews, but the auto translate is mainly spouting gibberish...

To my ears, most board design jive talk sounds like a bad German translation.  :o 8) :P
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: PonoBill on June 15, 2022, 09:30:51 PM
The old maxim of board shapers is that clean design makes for great boards, and wacky tails make for great sales. For some reason, people think fanciful tail designs are important, but in general, it's the least important element of board design. I think foil boards might be an exception to that rule since they spend a lot of time in the air, and the transition from floating to two feet above the water is critical. But I can't help but call bullshit on this design. It looks like wallet bait.
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: juandesooka on June 16, 2022, 09:35:42 AM
The old maxim of board shapers is that clean design makes for great boards, and wacky tails make for great sales. For some reason, people think fanciful tail designs are important, but in general, it's the least important element of board design. I think foil boards might be an exception to that rule since they spend a lot of time in the air, and the transition from floating to two feet above the water is critical. But I can't help but call bullshit on this design. It looks like wallet bait.

That's a great line, going to steal that. But substitute lines so that the rhyme matches  ;D  "clean designs make for great lines, wacky tails make for great sales"
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: Solent Foiler on June 16, 2022, 11:33:11 AM
Just read some feedback on Seabreeze forum saying how the rider felt more connected to the foil and the foil felt smaller/more responsive. This sounds like the benefits from riding a shorter mast to me. The Ginxu clearly does make your effective mast length shorter, and there are cheaper ways of getting the same effect!
Title: Re: Ginxu step hokum
Post by: pafoil on June 16, 2022, 10:09:41 PM
There seems to be mixed feelings about the board.  For me, the width is a no go, specially in the bigger sizes.
After riding 22 and 21 inches wide boards, I have no interest in a board over 22 inches. Reaction, tight turns, etc are much better under 22 inches.
These wide boards are good beginner boards.
For now, I’m staying with my 5,4 by 22 KT drifter.
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