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The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: bretrwarner on March 30, 2022, 11:39:50 AM

Title: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: bretrwarner on March 30, 2022, 11:39:50 AM
I apologize if this is touched on somewhere else, but when I searched I only found posts from 2019 and I know wings have evolved quite a bit since then. I canít, for reasons of marital stability, get a wing, a board, and a foil all at once. If I go with just a wing with a SUP is it still any fun(I know this a super relative term )or will I just be wishing for a foil right away? I will be on mostly lakes. Wind speed is pretty consistently between 10-20 mph. Iím 180 lbs. I have an 11í by 31Ē SUP I could use and a 9í by 28Ē one. I have some race SUPs too but Iím assuming my dugout race sup is a no go.
I would love to hear any thoughts, recs on a wing, etc
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: juandesooka on March 30, 2022, 12:22:32 PM
Answer: it depends.   ;D

If you are in a windy location already, and that is your best and only option to get out there and make the most of it, then for sure it's fun!  The resource is there, not too much an investment to add a wing to enjoy it. Giv'r!

The it depends part is that you'll only be scratching the surface of possibilities, so assuming the wind bug grabs you, expect a series of reinvestments over next 1-3 years until you have the full rig. 

SUP is harder to stay upwind. You'll learn to lean into the rail or maybe invest in a strap on daggerboard.  Or find an old windsurfer with a retractable dagger, betcha your neighbours all have one in the shed rafters.

SUP will be harder to make work in lighter winds, as the efficiency of the foil is what makes it come alive. As you become a wind chaser, you'll find it is not as windy as you thought in strength or frequency.  The dreaded wind is 8kt (10-12mph) where it's not realistically windy enough to play in but too windy for fun paddling etc. 

Wings: plenty of less-expensive used gen1 and gen2 options out there now.  There were a few early duds but pretty much all name brands now have decent quality workable gear.
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: Badger on March 30, 2022, 12:49:42 PM
It's definitely fun and a great way to learn the wing. A friend of mine is doing just that. He can't afford a foilboard yet so he bought a 6m wing and a cheap soft top SUP 10'6 x 32". I've used it a bunch of times and it's a blast. He has the sUPWINDer keel on it which is a necessity for going upwind. Without the keel, going upwind would be almost impossible.

You want a board with a very flat rocker. Surf SUPs with too much rocker will be slow. My friend's board is the Boardworks Surge.  https://boardworkssurf.com/products/surge-pkg-106-848201015979  It's extremely stable and gets up some pretty good speed in high winds. It might be even faster if it were narrower. You want a fairly high volume to provide enough float that the tail doesn't sink and slow the board down.

I've tried a number of sailboards with daggerboards winging and surprisingly none of them would go upwind. They just don't work with a wing. A flat-rockered SUP with a keel is what you want.

Learning the wing and foil at the same time can be very frustrating because you can't really go upwind on a foilboard unless you are flying the foil. Learning the wing on a SUP first will be much easier allowing you to sail continuously without having to walk back upwind every 20 minutes. When you finally do get a foilboard, you'll be able to concentrate more on the foiling and less on the winging. My friend is starting his second year SUPwinging and he's still enjoying it.

A 6m wing would be good for 10 to 20 mph. My friend uses his 6m even when it's nuking 30 although a 5m might be preferable for over 20.

I've been learning to wingfoil on a foilboard. Having to walk back upwind really slows down the learning process but it's still fun. It might have taken fewer sessions had I started on a wingSUP.
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: bretrwarner on March 30, 2022, 02:38:08 PM
How far up does the keel fin go? I ask because I am in the middle of stripping a hollow wood 12í6Ē, but itís not too late to put a backing for a fin box. From what you say about a low rocker board Iím thinking the one Iím making might be really fun with a wing.
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: Badger on March 30, 2022, 05:12:10 PM
For a typical all-around SUP, they say to put the SUPwinder keel 75cm from the center of the rear fin track.  https://slingshotsports.com/products/sup-winder

I'm not sure how that would relate to your 12'6. It might work okay that way or you might want it different. You could ask the guys at Slingshot and see what they say.

If using a fin box, a deep windsurfing fin might make a good keel.


https://youtu.be/B7FLcQy8wo0
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: surfcowboy on March 30, 2022, 07:32:22 PM
Curious, what area of the country are you in?
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: Dusk Patrol on March 30, 2022, 07:57:33 PM
I actually just had that conversation  with Slingshot -

Me:  Is there a preferred length of SUP to use with your supWINDer fin? I've inherited a wing, and am in the market for a SUP to use with the supWINDer. Thanks.

Slingshot: Thanks for your inquiry. One of the great things about this product is how versatile it is. It works on everything from a smaller 7 or 8 ft. board up to 11 ft. It will work on a longer SUP, but will not be as easy to tack or jibe.

Me: Thanks. Follow up question: the video states you want to be sure to place the supWINDer 75 cm from the middle of the boardís fin box.
Wouldnít the supWINDer location vary, depending on the length of the SUP?
And if so, whatís the rule of thumb?

Slingshot: You place the SUPwinder farther back on the board than you would think and you stand quite far back on it as well when winging.  Surprisingly I don't think that distance varies, but to double-check on a shorter board you can put your front foot just behind the center handle, figure out your stance and put it right between your two feet. Hope that makes sense.
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: Badger on March 31, 2022, 06:06:55 AM
Slingshot: You place the SUPwinder farther back on the board than you would think and you stand quite far back on it as well when winging.  Surprisingly I don't think that distance varies, but to double-check on a shorter board you can put your front foot just behind the center handle, figure out your stance and put it right between your two feet. Hope that makes sense.


That makes sense to me although you might want to also consider the volume in the tail.

Last summer I was thinking of putting the keel on a Starboard Blend 11'3 x 30 @ 170 liters. I placed a piece of tape on the deck where 75cm would be and took the board out on the water. Then I centered my stance over the tape. The tail sank considerably and the board became very unstable. That might be okay in a high-speed planing situation but would be very slow and unstable in lighter winds. So I moved my stance forward just enough that the deck was level and decided that the keel would be best a little more forward which I think came to about 90cm. I ended up not buying the board so I didn't get a chance to test it.

Before attaching the keel, it would be a good idea to go out on the water first and stand over where you imagine the keel would be. You want your stance to be centered over the keel. If you stand forward of the keel, the board will want to turn downwind.

Looking at the Starboard Wingboard 4-in-1, they seem to place their keel more towards the center of the board.  https://sup.star-board.com/wing-boarding/wingboard-4-in-1/

For best performance, I would want the keel to be as far back as possible while still allowing the deck to be reasonably level. That way, you'll be able to get back on the tail in high winds yet still be able to easily sail upwind when the wind is light.

.
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: PonoBill on March 31, 2022, 10:28:54 AM
Don't go by the location of a centerboard on a windsurfer or all-around board like the old Starboard 12-6. The center of effort on a windsurfer is very close to where the mast is. The center of effort of a wing is somewhere between your feet. For maneuvering and going upwind you want the centerboard center slightly ahead of the center of effort. For stability under "sail," you want it slightly behind. The best thing about the supwinder is you can move it.

Used wings are generally cheap. Talk to the guys that have been doing it longest and you can probably get a big wing (5 or 6M) for dirt cheap or free. I generally give mine away when I'm done with them. I'd be embarrassed to sell them. Admin knows why since he said my quiver looked like "a hobo's handkerchief". Yes, but they were still perfectly usable for learning or playing.
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: Badger on March 31, 2022, 10:53:35 AM
The best thing about the supwinder is you can move it.

Bill, the supwinder is fixed and permanent.  Once you stick it on, it can't be moved.

.
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: PonoBill on March 31, 2022, 11:05:38 AM
Hmmm, well that's too bad, either I saw a different version or a prototype. The one I saw is attached with straps.
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: Badger on March 31, 2022, 11:37:23 AM
The strap-on centerboard you saw might have been this.  https://www.foilingworld.co.uk/accessories-1/sup-centreboard

It looks like an inefficient design compared to the supwinder. It's just a flat board cut from a piece of plastic. The straps must create a lot of drag.


https://youtu.be/vinJEOFIgy4


There's also the Duotone Drift Stopper. I don't see this working well either.  https://shop.duotonesports.com/en-gb/add-on-drift-stopper-14200--8010


https://youtu.be/S6lRZMQdswE

Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: Dusk Patrol on March 31, 2022, 04:13:34 PM
Back to OP BretRW's scenario: Not acquiring all the gear to begin with.

Would a short-ish foil board with like a 15" tuttle based windsurfing racing/slalom fin allow him to sail upwind?

Then just add the mast/foil later...

Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: Badger on March 31, 2022, 06:46:40 PM
My guess is that putting a 15" fin in the foil mast area would not help it go upwind.

But having a 15" tuttle fin near the center of the board with two small rear fins in the tracks might be interesting. I think my 6'4 Naish would fly with that setup and possibly go upwind pretty well.

I wonder how it would foil with a 15" center fin. It might be good for beginners to help when slogging upwind and avoid the walk of shame.

.
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: bretrwarner on March 31, 2022, 07:52:13 PM
Curious, what area of the country are you in?

Iím in Southern California. About 45 minutes East of LA
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: PonoBill on March 31, 2022, 11:49:58 PM
The strap-on centerboard you saw might have been this.  https://www.foilingworld.co.uk/accessories-1/sup-centreboard. It looks like an inefficient design compared to the supwinder. It's just a flat board cut from a piece of plastic. The straps must create a lot of drag.

No, it was something the slingshot guys were playing with. It was quite a while ago, and my memory sucks, but I think it was Tony hizself. They, and about everyone else that makes wind/water toys are in my neighborhood. The fin looks like the same one I saw. flat straps aren't all that draggy, and you can cover them with packing tape both to keep them from moving and to get a little better flow.
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: clay on April 01, 2022, 11:00:23 AM
I canít, for reasons of marital stability, get a wing, a board, and a foil all at once...I have an 11í by 31Ē SUP I could use and a 9í by 28Ē one. I have some race SUPs too

I read in some self help book to ask "how can I?" instead of saying "I can't"

I haven't touched my SUPs in years, only surfed once or twice in the past 4 years since I got hooked on foil.  So one could sell all those future dust collectors and get a second hand complete wing foil setup.

Just a wing might get one to 30 sessions, beyond that what would be the point?  Might as well windsurf if not gonna get a foil.

Relationship wise I would be transparent and put my desires on the table - hey honey I want to get into wing foiling and I want to do this in a way that nurtures our relationship and that you are comfortable with.  Can we find a win win?
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: Badger on April 01, 2022, 04:56:25 PM
I sold two SUPs to help pay for my foil gear. Kept one, but now that I'm foiling, I really don't care if I ever surf again so I'll probably get around to selling that one as well. I gave up flatwater and downwind SUP a long time ago.
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: daswusup on April 01, 2022, 06:44:14 PM
winging on a sup is someone passing you a skinny joint at a party for the first time. It's a gateway. Nobody in the history of mainstream winging(3.5 yrs) has ever just stopped there. If they did stop there then they are not a good human and don't know the difference in right and wrong. Absolutely, start there. You will be entertained for an hour.  Absolutely buy a used Slingshot Hoverglide 84 for $350 and any foilboard 130L ish or more for $400. Life is short. Don't die before you learn to wingFOIL.
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: bretrwarner on April 03, 2022, 01:24:40 PM
Thanks for all the input everyone. Iíll be honest, I canít imagine selling the quiver of SUPs I spent these past years acquiring/building, but Iíll keep an open mind and look more seriously at the full setup. After all, I certainly donít want to be a bad person.
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: spindrift on April 03, 2022, 02:39:05 PM
I don't like to rain on the wing sup parade. There are a few contributors that support wing sup and I value their point of view. My own experience is that a wing and skateboard is a lot more fun. I agree with those that suggest you find a used 130ish board and older foil if at all possible. I wish I would have taken this advice instead of buying new.



Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: VB_Foil on April 04, 2022, 08:44:43 AM
I say go for it for sure, especially if you have kids.  I have slapped a supwinder on my wife's 12'6" touring Sup by Boardworks (I think) and it is a blast to sail around.  My 4 year old daughter loved riding between my legs.  Great addition to bring to the beach and get out on the water in the slightest consistent breeze.

The 12'6" is difficult to gybe and tack and requires shimmying your feet quite a bit to control direction.  It is almost hard to go downwind, super easy to go upwind. 

Last time I was out last summer, the local windsurfer was out and I think I was having more fun.

Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: Dusk Patrol on April 04, 2022, 09:17:05 AM
Question - Will a foil board head up wind when not on foil? 

Or is the speed and lack of friction when on foil necessary?   

In other words, if Bretrw went the route of getting a full foil set up to learn on, would he still be facing the upwind walk until he could fly it?   
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: PonoBill on April 04, 2022, 10:31:04 AM
A truly useful comment from Clay, kudos.

And yes, a foil board with foil that isn't foiling will go upwind like a champ--it's got one hell of a keel. At any beginner spot, like Kahalui harbor, you'll see half the folks trudging upwind with their wing and foil board, and half just starting from anywhere, foiling for two hours and coming back to the same spot they started. The difference isn't gear, or years of practice--it's a couple of weeks. I can go upwind nicely on my knees, which is a damned good thing because my knee is giving me problems lately and I need a good gust to use the wing to lever myself to my feet.

The easiest and most direct path to get into foiling is with somewhat oversized foil gear, which fortunately is cheap on the market because everyone who gets antsy about progression sells theirs as soon as they can use something smaller. It's silly, you can use that oversized gear for years, but you get to take advantage of the silliness.

there's nothing wrong with winging around on a sup, or an old windsurfer, or anything you can get to work. Fun is fun. I'd do it if that's what I had to choose from, and you could get very good at it. But it's really step one. Lots of people say "learn on a skateboard" which is fine if you're young and made of rubber. But my knee problems and everything wrong with my left leg all stems from ripping up the tendons in my left ankle about 35 years ago. Water is forgiving.
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: jondrums on April 04, 2022, 01:00:05 PM
I think winging on a sup will be boring really quick.  You might well have a ton of fun on a skateboard.  I'm using a "carveboard" that I bought used for under $100 and I have just as much fun and maybe more fun than I do on flatwater with my foil.  (sorry, it definitely does not beat being in the surf/swell)
(https://www.saltypeaks.com/pi/carveboard_natural.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: seastudent on April 04, 2022, 02:19:16 PM
I started with a real throwback. A Mistral Windglider. Basically an inflatable barge. Super stable,cushy and easy. Only used it once to see if I could sail upwind with the wing. I could. Next went to plowing on my 110l board with the foil. I could also stay upwind. Then learn to foil. I found the Windglider on Craigslist. I've only had to patch it three times! I'm planning on teaching my kids with it now.
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: Badger on April 04, 2022, 03:28:05 PM
I have considerable sailing and windsurfing experience and I can say with certainty that my foil board does not slog upwind well at all. It will do it but walking/wading is much faster. If I had no shore to do the walk, I would give up on foiling because it wouldn't be worth the effort. That's just me. Maybe some board/foil combinations slog upwind better than others.

My board goes upwind great on foil but I'm not quite there yet. That's what I'm practicing now. A few more sessions and I'll be able to consistently stay upwind of where I launched. Walking is a drag.

When I get to the point where I'm foiling consistently, I'll downsize to something slightly smaller. I really like the 125L Naish S26 that I'm on now. I might get the next size down.

Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: red_tx on April 05, 2022, 11:03:20 AM
Yes. Yes it is plenty fun.

+1 to jondrums and the skate. (Super important in my opinion *if you know how to skate). I actually went wing skating yesterday with my Dart 3M and Dart 5M... sick lines in the parkinglot and the best way to learn how to handle the wing in my opinion. I have the Waterborne Skate setup which is similar and more sexy than jon's.

To daswusups suggestion about the $350 Slingshot gear laying around.. I have it laying around. let me know. Maybe cheaper than that..

Winging on the standie allows you to hold the wing above the water and, then allows you to practice basic out and backs to the launch which are crucial.

We are talking about sailing basics also here, and this allows a safe way to learn the ole out and back.

Have you seen Robby Naish smacking surf with a wing on a standie? Its awesome.
-red

Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: PonoBill on April 05, 2022, 03:19:48 PM
There's a simple trick to going upwind with a wing--even slogging--that doesn't occur to windsurfers very often. When you want to go upwind in good wind with a windsurfer you put a lot of pressure on the upwind rail, lean the mast way back, and pull the sail in with your back hand. I don't really think of it that way, but it's physically what we do.

None of that works with a wing and a foil. Generally, you need to keep most of your weight along the spine of the board, bend your knees (hard for me) and raise your back hand a little bit. That brings the bottom of the wing in closer to the board and lets you steer upwind more. It's very weird the first time you try it, and it's easier to do with a harness, but if you have that element consciously in your repertoire you can quickly be one of the people that somehow goes upwind much closer to the wind direction.
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: jondrums on April 05, 2022, 06:25:54 PM
Interesting - I found the best way to slog upwind is to dig in the windward rail of the board to tilt the main foil to get lift in the upwind direction.  I think the foil wing is a very efficient keel, better than using the mast as a keel which is all you have when the board isn't rolled.  In addition, the flat bottom of the board acts as a directional keel.  I used to do exactly what you said with my board slogging on a windsurfing rig and its where I got the idea. 

Agreed that you need to get the wing leading edge closer to vertical to act as an efficient sail.  It helps me a ton to consciously bring my front hand up and forward and my back hand even higher
Title: Re: Wing with a SUP on a lake? Is it any fun or just for learning or?
Post by: Badger on April 05, 2022, 06:58:37 PM
That makes sense to use the foil as the keel instead of the mast and let it generate lift upwind. Maybe I need to lean the board more than I have been. I will try it next time and report back if it works. It could be that my board has too much volume to sink the rail properly and I need a smaller board. Slogging upwind would be a very useful tactic for times when there's not enough wind to get up on foil and sure beats paddling upwind with your arms.
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