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General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: JohnnyTsunami on March 23, 2022, 11:04:38 PM

Title: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on March 23, 2022, 11:04:38 PM
Ahoy!

I started my wing board build and it's been a trip already. I had to find some foam, build a hotwire, build a vacuum pump, get all the gear, etc. Anyway I started tonight and I'll share what I learn along the way. See this thread about me asking for glassing schedules. https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,37839.0.html (https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,37839.0.html)

I was up racing in SF a couple weeks ago on wing and was able to check out all the boards the fast folks were riding - almost all of which are DIY jobs. I was actually able to talk briefly with someone who helped shape some of them and makes other beautiful boards. My glassing schedule will be similar to his, maybe a little lighter.

The build will consist of:
   - .9lb EPS foam (.9003 lb/cuft to be exact, measured by weighing a uniform block).
   - Carbon/innegra hybrid 4oz
   - 4oz s-glass to put on top
   - 1/8" 5lb divinycell only the standing area (S-glass underneath, or maybe the carbon/innegra).
   - 5lb thicker divinycell to beef up the boxes and to make 1" wide boxes for the strap mounts/leash.
   - 16" Chinook dual tracks
   - Tuttle from fiberglass supply
   - Vacuum bagging everything

I hotwired out the blank today using a DIY hotwire. I can share the materials but basically it's just a buck-booster from amazon for 16$ and a laptop 12v 5A charger running at 10V 4.x Amps and a wire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgIcN2TPt9Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgIcN2TPt9Q)

Then I used a harbor freight hotknife for the outline. It looks bad but I ditched the flimsy adjustable guide and made my own perfectly square guide that's 5.125" deep (slightly not deep enough).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJSe0OtH6EE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJSe0OtH6EE)

The blank, just hotwired, weighs 2.7lbs. This is more than I was planning, but that's the lightest foam you can get. Calculating off the weight of a block of the same foam to get the exact density and using the weight of the hotwired blank, I get 85L as the volume now. I expect to lose about 10L, which would make it close to my weight in KG.

Originally I was planning a 60L board, but I'm thinking now if I can use this in lower winds, I can sell my larger 2022 board and save some $ for other gear.

The hotknife was interesting, a bit too hot and when I didn't hod it down right it made a couple gouges. It would be safer to make a top and bottom template. The hotwire worked well, although a bit slow. If you make some waves in the foam you can't really go back over them if they are under 1/4" or so since the foam sort of turns to goo and doesn't cut cleanly anymore, but I will sort that out with sand paper. I should have been more careful on the nose as it has a sharp turn and one end of the wire went over before the other, causing a potential issue. We'll see tomorrow when I go to do the rail shaping.

I plan on using a tuttle to use some fast foils. However, I have to wait 2+ months for my foil and the ones I do have are a tuttle that goes 4" behind a normal tuttle, or they are a dual track system (axis). So, reluctantly, I'm putting in 16" chinook dual tracks (.8lbs for just the tracks- same weight as the 10") to future-proof the board. The tracks don't fit with the tuttle in between by about .5", so I plan to cut the dual track flange back a bit to nest with the tuttle. I'll do divinycell the width and length of the individual tracks and through to the deck of the board (DW style).

I would attach photos but I can't figure it out. Attaching jpegs doesn't work, nor does putting a link inside an image bracket so here is flickr. https://www.flickr.com/photos/28261840@N08/albums/72177720297583719 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/28261840@N08/albums/72177720297583719)
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on March 23, 2022, 11:12:47 PM
If anyone knows how to cap off a tuttle box from fiberglass supply let me know. I have about .25" to fill with divinycell between it and the deck. I could just run bolts with washes from through the carbon/divinycell deck to the tuttle, or do I need to cap off the tuttle with carbon (how much?) or use carbon tubes to take the load? I assume the loads are quite small on the retaining bolts for the tuttle. 
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: Dwight (DW) on March 24, 2022, 03:25:11 AM
I’d use a GoFoil tuttle box instead of the WaterRat tuttle. The Gofoil does fit a Mikes Lab foil.

On paper, you’d question that because GoFoil’s box is designed with vertical screws. Genuine tuttle boxes are angled screws. But it does work because the GoFoil box places the screw head deep down in the board, right tight over the mast head.

When using the waterrat box you’ve got a shit show to work around. It being those angled screws wanting to point through the back angled wall. If you’re not following what I’m saying, put that water rat box on your foil head and try installing the screws. Before building the board. You have to cut that water rat box down to 2.88 inches high, then cap it with carbon, then build the screw tunnels. A big hassle. The GoFoil box is easier. With the GoFoil, technically, the cap screw heads are sitting at a slight angle to the surface at the bottom of the hole. But who cares, use a washer, and I know from cutting those boxes, that surface at the bottom is 1/2” thick carbon, so no chance of failure. Overall, the GoFoil box is far more robust in build than the WaterRat box from Larry Tuttle.
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: Dontsink on March 24, 2022, 04:34:29 AM
To clarify,your glass schedule will be:

Top: EPS+Dcell+4ozCarbonInnegra+4ozGlass

Bottom: EPS+4ozCarbonInnegra alone?

And how much reinforcement over foilbox,strap inserts,leash...?

I am making a Dockstart board with XPS i had around, probably a beefier lam for knocks because i want it tough.
But after this i will build something 85l pretty similar to what you are making so i am very interested.

KdMaui said in an interview that the racers st the GWA event in Tarifa rode big 80-100l boards and tiny foils (600cm2) with big sails (6m up to 20kt).
Is that similar to what you saw in SFrancisco?.
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on March 24, 2022, 07:52:42 AM
[quote author=Dontsink link=topic=37938.msg435176#msg435176 date=1648121669

KdMaui said in an interview that the racers st the GWA event in Tarifa rode big 80-100l boards and tiny foils (600cm2) with big sails (6m up to 20kt).
Is that similar to what you saw in SFrancisco?.

[/quote]

That’s exactly what I rode, but the winds were pretty light. Other guys were on 800 -1000 foils to go up wind better and 5m to 5.5m wings. Boards seem to be around body weight. As well as a bunch of folks on various equipment.

The schedule is:

4oz s glass
4oz carbon/innegra (plus extra over foot positions and holes)
1/8” Divinycell over standing area
4oz glass
.9lb eps core
4oz carbon/innegra (plus 3 or 4 patches over box)
4oz s glass

I’ll wrap the rails with the top and bottom as well.



DW:
Yes, mikes lab. Why do I have to cut down the box? It’s only 1/4” short from hitting my deck so can’t I just do 5 layers of carbon or something on top of it and then thin divinycell to the deck? Maybe glass in some countersunk g10 washers? I haven’t fit my mast head in to check where to put the screws yet but I’ll check.

Do you mean the box is so large I end up having to put the screws through the angled part so that is why I need to cut it down?
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: Dwight (DW) on March 24, 2022, 10:40:58 AM
See the issue. Red screw busts into yellow box. Angled screw doesn't work in a box deeper than 2.88 inches. That's why Alex designed a better box for foiling.


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51958709068_ebbe20aac8_k.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on March 25, 2022, 02:15:44 PM
Thanks Dwight.

I measured it and it looks like I'm good by just a smidge - no angled bolts here. This is my current tuttle one, the new one should have the same holes. I could always use the more central holes as well.

I'm thinking to just use a g10 plate cut to the outline exactly of the carbon in the top of the tuttle, but leave enough to make a "washer" for the bolts on the edges. Then use DCell to bring the rest of the box to the skin.

That should do it, now I'm just worried about carrying around 100ccs of water above my tuttle head, haha.


Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: Dwight (DW) on March 25, 2022, 05:02:55 PM
What does that Mikes Lab mast weigh? Curious because a Chrissy winger on vacation here in Florida, had a brand new state of the art F4 race foil and mast. He was showing it to me and I was floored by the weight (heavy). It must have been insanely stiff for racing. Hard core stuff.
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on March 25, 2022, 09:47:53 PM
Shaping is done except for a lump and bump here and there. I decided to take the tail in a bit more and make it more rounded.

I shaped the rails by going about 1.5” on the deck and to the midline on the side and trying to make it uniform round. I just used 36 grit to rough it all and 60 grit for the rest. I hotwired chines in the bottom tapering off at 12” from the tail.

She’s looking slim now, I was worried it’s too small but my scale show me that it’s 77L at this point.

4’6” x 22 2/3 x 5 1/4”

I’ll definitely do some spackling as there are quite a few gouges that if I tried to sand them all out it would end up being much smaller.

Folks say to use DAP fast n final at a peanut butter consistency and then sand it down to the foam. Is this a good practice on the whole board and the divinycell as well to save weight even if I’m vacuuming it? What about between the divinycell and the core?

Next steps are to put on the divinycell deck patch with 4oz glass or carbon/innegra underneath. Then I’ll figure out my footstrap placing and get to work on my foil box monstrosity.


DW: The ML weights 3.2kg for the mast and wing. I use a torque wrench to assemble it so I don’t want to pull it apart atm. I think it’s a 104cm mast.
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on March 30, 2022, 12:16:09 PM
I’ve been slowly working, trying to get this done for the weekend.

I used Gorilla glue to add spacers to the Tuttle and cabosil to glue my tracks to the Tuttle.

I cut the hole in the board with a router freehand. It was beautiful, but I had 4 more inches to go with a hand saw. I used a Hotwire and a few saw blades, eventually going with a sawzal blade by hand. It is extremely hard to keep it all square. In hindsight I would have made two templates out of wood for either side and used a hotwire. Or got a 6” cnc router foam cutting bit and a 1/2” collet router.

Gorilla gluing the box in was nerve wracking. The Tuttle must be perfectly aligned side to side and front to back or my foil would forever be tilted, but the tracks are less important. You could always fill in above the tracks and the plate would fit flush to the board, really just getting them spaced right and on center is the main issue. These boxes ended up being heavy, just around 2lbs when they were ready to install. I could have used the blue planet strongbox, except I have this race foil that sits waaaay back in the tracks. I set it up so at the extreme forward I can use my axis setup hopefully without having to move my straps.

The gorilla glue gets EVERYWHERE. My mast was installed and the box mostly held by friction while I inserted sticks to keep it aligned. The foil wanted to drop down in the back. I measured using an iPhone level to .1 accuracy. Comparing the aluminum adapter for the Tuttle on a flat surface and the mast/fuse connection point (which is flat), I needed the Tuttle to be sitting negative .8 degrees relative to the bottom of the board. It ended up being negative .4. This is fine for me, and actually having the nose of the board up slightly more would be fine as at high speeds I’m leaning way forward. Side to side I measured the board rail to the middle of the top of the mast which was exactly 42” on both sides, eyesight confirmed it’s good.

Fingers crossed it all looks good the the gg dries and the box isn’t sunken into the foam core too far.

If I did it again I’m not sure what I would have done differently besides put 3 pairs of gloves on.

I’m pretty relieved to get that out of the way. Next is footstrap inserts and divinycell deck, then just glassing both sides and finishing. I’ll probably do a white epoxy/microbaloon finish to the board to keep it light.
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: Dwight (DW) on March 30, 2022, 12:44:21 PM
you can cut the hole in the EPS with a drywall saw and 7 inch blade in a jig saw.
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: Dontsink on March 30, 2022, 03:19:13 PM
A long drill bit will work fine for routering EPS.If the tip is wider than the rest just file it flush.And making a template is worth the little extra time for my two left hands.
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: Dontsink on March 30, 2022, 11:47:40 PM
Now that i think of it, your foil box is a lot deeper than a standard 2 track.Much harder job.
But there are some extra long drill bits that might go all or most of the way.Or a xl jigsaw blade as Dwight says.
I prefer the template and router because it gives a very precise result with not much skill or experience (my case :) ).
If the fit is good there is less space to fill with adhesive afterwards.
Did you mix the GGlue with water?. It works good but gives little time as it cures quickly.
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on March 31, 2022, 02:08:21 AM
I spread the gg on both surfaces after spraying with water out of a mister bottle. It was a good amount of working time.

Tonight I put cabosil on the bottom side after sanding in an effort to make it flat for glassing tomorrow. I cleaned up the box on the top of the board and used a router and sandpaper to flatten it to the deck.

Then I cut my 1/8” divinycell sheet which will go over the standing area. After tracing it I routed out the board, which took FOREVER. Don’t do it this way.

I used a wet out table for 4oz s glass cut to size, placed it in and covered with the dcell. Then I bagged it for a few hours for good measure just to suck the dcell to the deck. No epoxy will be removed, although I saw a video where a guy punched holes in the dcell for this purpose. I used some glass bubbles and put it in the edges of the core where the skin may not fit well. I like these microballoons, they are super super light compared to cabosil and a little goes a long way.

However, the color is sort of tan, not sure how that will work if I seal my board with it afterwards.

For finishing I assumed everyone did a hotcoat with pigment and microballoon filler, then sanded it down leaving the “brushed carbon” look and then covered with clear epoxy which can then be sanded to be uniform.

I have some white pigment I was planning on using and skipping the final clear coat. Is the above correct about the putty folks make up for finishing just to fill the weave a bit and avoid pinholes?
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: Dontsink on March 31, 2022, 03:20:11 AM
Looking good, lots of progress!.
You could have stuck the Dcell on top and sanded the edges afterwards but it would not look as good i think.Is there another way?.

I have just bought a used Gast DOA pump,pretty old with no press dial.I am hoping it will suck enough without buying a service kit,have to buy a vacuometer to measure.
How much vacuum press do you use for bagging?
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on March 31, 2022, 02:15:52 PM
I’m keeping it at 8 in/h2o to be safe. I head 10 may be ok as well.

I finished glassing the deck skin and the put in the inserts, leash plug (into the top of the track), vent, and the Tuttle top.

I made the Tuttle topper out of g10 which I routed to the right height, about 1/8”. Then I drilled the two holes for the Tuttle adapter, I put in three more holes a bit smaller that I can drill and tap to fit footstrap screws at a later date. I countersunk the Tuttle attachment screws so they will sit flush with the deck. I put in a few holes to lighten it up as well.

Weight is a hair over 5lbs at this point.

Next is spackling the whole board and then sanding and then glassing.

I have DAP patch n paint which I’ll thin a bit with water. Here is a vid of stretch using the same product.  https://youtu.be/tHHGxMAnLOU (https://youtu.be/tHHGxMAnLOU)

My pump is home made. I took a KNF 12v dc diaphragm pump with a 0-5v controller and hooked it up to a one way valve, an adjustable electronic vacuum regulator and a liquid filled gauge, controlled using a cheap buck booster from Amazon and powered by a laptop power supply.

Advantages are that this pump is lab quality, can run continuously forever and it’s small. It cycles on for about 5 seconds every minute or two. It is slow to pull a vacuum on the whole board, taking about 5 or 10 minutes, so I get it started with a handheld house vacuum.

The vacuum switch and one way valve were from ACP composites. No pressure relief is needed for the pump at this low of a vacuum.

In hindsight, a harbor freight pump would have been fine and about the same price as my setup. I would want that on a pressure switch as well so you don’t burn out the pump, which needs oil. Since those pumps are high amp, you would need the pressure switch to flip an SSR to control the power to the pump.

Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on March 31, 2022, 02:18:37 PM
Apologies for the upside down photos.

If anyone who knows can confirm that after glassing and being left with a preppy finish, if Squeegeeing on microballoons and tinted resin would be how to adequately seal the board, if appreciate it! If I did not tint would it be brown? I understand that would leave some weave feel to the board, which is fine.
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on April 02, 2022, 11:14:32 PM
Glassed her up and she’s splashing tomorrow hopefully.

My 4oz carbon innegra turned out to be more of a 5 or 6 oz. It drinks epoxy, but it comes back out under vacuum. Cloth to epoxy ratio after vacuum: 1.69=610/361

I put in the footstraps using some 4oz s glass under each that spread to the deck. When I did the carbon later I put a patch over them. I used taped up paper to mark the holes and aligned it with the vent and the leash plug. The leash plug was put into the divinycell sticking up from the box, since the box was so far back.

The vacuum bagging was pretty cool, it fixes your problems, but also makes it so your curves are blind when you bag it and you have no idea what’s going on, if the fabric is folded, the peelply goes underneath, etc. That happened quite a bit. I learned you really can’t wrap under the deck, so next time I would just cut it at the bottom of the rail for each side. My second round I made the nose carbon and glass go on without a fold. The deck was perfect, the tail was a mess though.

I had an epoxy mixing issue when I panicked and ran out of resin, so I spent a while cleaning that up today and she gained a little weight.

The single piece of carbon/innegra and the s glass was too thin for anywhere I might press. You can easily feel the foam moving when you push on it. I put extra carbon on the rails. The only place with only one layer is the top and bottom front 2 feet, but the rails are mostly double wrapped.

Next time I’d use only carbon and no innegra or glass.

I put on some microballoons and cabosil 3:1. The stuff dried fast. Hopefully I can sand it later and get it wet tomorrow.

It seems that an epoxy finish coat would be ideal (apparently all fillers are not totally watertight), but to make it nice would add a pound probably and she’s getting a little tubby. Also, a foil board is not sitting in the water like a boat, so it should be fine. It’s just under 10lbs before the microballoons we’re added.

Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: Dontsink on April 03, 2022, 03:43:06 AM
That is a good weight for volume.
Did you bag in one go or first bottom then deck?.
Doing the pointy bits is what i find really hard to get right without getting creases,folds and a botched look :)
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: surfcowboy on April 03, 2022, 08:04:01 AM
Dwight, re Mike's Lab, yeah they are solid carbon for many parts. Heavy as heck. Racers don't care, just need thin, slippery, and fast. Several guys here have them and they are crazy awesome people say.
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: finbox on April 03, 2022, 09:26:50 AM
Where did you get your carbon innegra fabric? I haven't seen that pattern before.
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on April 03, 2022, 07:33:15 PM
About 3 hours of sanding this morning and… she floats.

I got a pad from NSI and routed out the holes for the tracks and the Tuttle and footstraps. The carbon over the foil is very thick, it was burning up my trim router bit, so I feel pretty confident in it. All in all it’s a pretty beefy board. I’m toying with the idea of an epoxy sealer coat. If I could be sure I won’t be sanding for another three hours. What if I brushed in thin epoxy and put a super this plastic drop cloth on top, could that be a no sand finish?

The board is a bit of a sinker. I think I’m right in that negative 5 or 10 L where corkiness is an issue. I can slog in 5knots and I can get up in the same amount of wind as my fanatic 2022 95L, I think due to my tail being just as wide. There will be some getting used to it as a foil stall results in a nosedive underwater, but I think I can figure out how to avoid that. Also, leaning back is important when just starting to pump the wing. I see other boards with more tail rocker, but they are Tuttle only and easier to angle the Tuttle box differently than the board.

It’s very lively and responsive and will take some getting used to.

The fabric is from a company called Sanded in Australia.

@surfcowboy I posted the weight of the ML, I think it’s in line with Armstrong who post their completed foil weights, even though the mast is 20cm longer.

@Dontsink I did the bottom then the top separately. I can’t imagine doing them both at the same time, although I have seen the Dutch guy do it in YouTube, maybe different fabric makes it easier.
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on April 05, 2022, 10:20:24 AM
Well I've got a few sessions on the new board. I had a slight issue where a track-mounted foil felt different on different tacks. I measured with a free iphone level app that reads to the .1 degree and found that one track was sitting high and tilting .7 degrees. Fortunately I had enough glass and sealer to sand it down to perfect. I rode it again and it's great.

I was lucky/unlucky to get rescued today by the only boat out in the wind and waves, a 35 foot cabin cruiser manned by a bunch of beercan cruisers catching the sunset. The wind promptly shut down and I was a mile out. In below 5 knots I can slog the board by sitting upright on it like a surfer dangling my legs and holding the wing in the air. This gets me just over 1 knot of speed and is pretty low effort. I would be able to get to shore but it would have taken forever. I also keep a marine radio for this sort of thing.

Getting in the big boat my board got smashed into the swim platform a few times. It was the tail of the board, since I was holding the leash. I was certain I would have some repairs to do.

I got back to the beach, and there is not a scratch on it. I take back what I said about this innegra stuff. My tail probably has the most wraps on it, three layers of carbon/innegra on the corners, plus 4oz s glass. My plan was to make this board as light as possible and assumed any impact would result in a repair except for the d-cell standing area. However, it looks like I unwittingly built a really durable board.

Misc. Things I Learned

- The board is definitely more prone to nosedive. Shaping it again I'd put in another inch of front rocker. I think this is an issue with any board under 5 feet long. I can save soft touchdowns, but I'm nosediving where my 5'4" board would not have been. I think my technique can help.

- The rail bevel with hard edges works great and I bounced off some touchdowns without slowing down.

- The length and the light weight are awesome. I think the short length makes a big impact in the turning ability and pumping ability, regardless of the weight.

- I find my rear foot has my toes dangling off the pad sometimes. I'm glad I made it as wide as I did, the tail is 15" across at the back - which is the same as my 26" diameter 5'4" fanatic tail. I need to make my front footstraps bigger so I can push my foot in further to the center and keep my rear foot more centered.

- The pad and straps add over a pound. The NSI pads are 5# density and 1/4" thick. I considered buying 2mm EVA foam and sticking it on myself. If I knew the density it may save almost 1/2 a pound. Next time I'll factor the pad into my glassing schedule. If you have a pad over the deck area, you may be able to get away with one or less layers of carbon, or no divinycell for a 1# EPS.

- The vacuum pulled more than half the epoxy out of the laminate. I used a peelply and cotton breather cloth. Many people use a perforated bleeder material between the peelply and the breather to the laminate from drying out. I'm not sure where my laminate ended up on the dryness scale.

- I don't know how to vacuum epoxy out of the divinycell layer. You have to put glass down on the EPS and then the divinycell, but there is no way for the resin to get pulled out. Maybe you poke 1,000 little holes in the divinycell?

- I think cabosil is too strong/heavy for most applications. I would have used microballoons and only a little cabosil for things like the footstrap mounts and the boxes in retrospect. Alex Aguera says this in an old video of him installing a tuttle box.

- Everything takes 3x longer than you anticipate as a beginner. "I'll just sand the deck and glass it in 45m," actually takes 3 hours. 

- 1 pound EPS is easy-ish to work with but the slightest bump or tool striking it will result in a gouge, as well as sanding it at the wrong angle. I would recommend starting on stronger foam, 1.25, 1.5 or 2# foam.

- Had I not wrapped to the other deck on my laminations I would have had a much cleaner nose and tail and I could have saved some weight on my sealer coat. The other area that cost me a pound was having dual tracks and a tuttle.

- I'm not sure on the strength of my footstrap inserts since there is only 1 4ox glass holding them in and they are placed in 1# EPS without a HD insert.

Total weights:

Before Sealing Coat:  4.4kg/9.7lbs
Finished / naked:      4.68kg/10.32 lbs
With Pad Installed:    4.997kg/11.00 lbs
With Pad and Strap:   5.22kg/11.45lbs   


All in all, I'd recommend building a board. Unlike a surfboard the actual shape and details don't matter nearly as much, so as long as you can put in the foil mount and keep it watertight, you'll end up with a useable board.   
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: jondrums on April 05, 2022, 12:54:53 PM
Your build thread is inspiring, thanks for publishing it!

consider cork deckpad next time.  I'm really really liking the RSPro cork hextraction and rear footpad that I used and it is much lighter than the EVA pads.
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: Dontsink on April 06, 2022, 12:52:54 AM
It is a very good weight,considering the Tuttle,footstraps and ding resistance i would say it is excellent!.

Was gonna mention the cork pads too, they seem to be the lightest with good reviews on grip and comfort.

You say you wrapped all around and this gave you problems...what is the option?.
This is the part that worries me the most,getting a tight wrap round the tail corners etc... and keeping the edges strong as they take all the knocks.
It looks so easy in vids but it is such a messy,difficult thing to do with epoxy up to your elbows and the clock ticking :)
What would you do different?
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on April 06, 2022, 10:11:38 AM
I’m trying to think what I’d do differently.

I’d wrap the rails but not go further around to the opposite deck. If you want more cloth there just do it when you laminate that side. Bust out the scissors and cut the wet cloth on the board. I got fancy scissors I was worried about messing them up, haha, but I got over that.

The carbon innegra wrapped nicely on the rails mostly, I had more trouble with the fiberglass not wanting to stretch or shrink. When you do make a folded mess of the innegra you are screwed since it doesn’t sand so you can’t level it out again.

There are some tricks I don’t know since some other folks seem to make boards the same dimensions about 2 lbs lighter. I think they are going full carbon and using 1.25# foam.

My complete top lamination weighed .61kgs not including the dcell and 4oz underneath (unfortunately my notes aren’t good enough to figure the 4oz weight but the dcell was around 60grams). That was carbon over everything and two deck patches and a couple small patches plus 4oz s glass over top. How to suck the resin out from below the dcell is my biggest mystery. I pulled 35% of the resin out with the vacuum for the top lamination. Resin to fabric ratio .7:1

The bottom lamination was 1.25kg, which is somewhere I could have done better. It included carbon and s glass over everything, wrapped the rails nose and tail. 4patches over the box, the largest of which went 1/2 the board length. I also did carbon rail strips. I had my epoxy mishap and ended up with extra 4oz on half the board.

I speckled the board, not sure if that is superior to microballoons or not. It definitely provides zero structural help but it dries extremely fast and is pretty light.
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: tarquin on April 06, 2022, 11:51:38 AM
Great job.
 You can buy dcell with holes in it. I tried a foaming epoxy additive to get a lighter finish and hope the expanding epoxy would fill at the same time.
 A guy in Australia makes surfboards by vac bagging Paulownia onto blanks with PU glue. He has showed lots of pics where the PU glue really pushes into the foam. So I thought it would be good to try it with foaming epoxy. No idea if it worked because I didn't weigh it or cut into it. Still use the board sometimes.
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: surfcowboy on April 13, 2022, 08:31:10 PM
Nice work man. Yeah, sanding sucks. But you get faster and each board you learn how to remove steps.

The lap thing is a great example. Surfboards you want a full lap with all cloth layers. I limit mine and if there are 2+ layers on a side I'll cut 1 or 2 to just the deck. Only lap the top layer or two and yes, stop before it wraps to the other side.

The microballoon thing is spot on too. Other fillers are hard to sand. I'm experimenting with fill coats now using balloons on my build. I did traditional fill coat on deck and am regretting it, though it looks cool. I'll sand it all down and go lighter.

And finally, yeah don't expect to get the weight of a pro with thousands of boards made, right? You did great and your note on not sweating it too much is true. These things work pretty well. That last 20% of perfection is what takes a decade and hundreds of boards. Uhg, I wish this forum software was easier to post pics from. A build thread on the zone is almost as much work as building the board.  😂
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: tarquin on April 13, 2022, 09:52:34 PM
I was watching a vid of a pro building a SUP once and he wet out the carbon on a wet out table. But only just. He didn't soak it. He then put it on the board and poured what looked like epoxy with micro balloons in it onto the carbon. Still very runny though.
 I have used this method on glass before and you can get a pretty smooth finish with that and the Jimmy Lewis poor mans peel ply or vac bag,can never remember what he calls it.
 Also using other additives apart from micro balloons will give you a lighter mix, specific filling additives. Depends if you are painting or not. Some companies do various size microballons. The company I use here in France does 3 or 4 sizes from about 100g/l (grams per litre) to 400g/l.
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on June 14, 2022, 11:36:18 PM
Well, I'm building a new board in time for July. I won't make a thread on it, but here is what I found are the problems with this board.

- Nosediving - stalls, pumping on foil, jumping = nosediving and crashing. The rocker is simply not enough. The lack of any tail rocker adds to the problem as well.

- Finishing - my finish wasn't very good and it didn't actually seal the board completely. I got a nasty gash on the way to the water one day and didn't see it. Drying the board out, I was a ton of holes on the bottom with water bubbling out! I'm going to take super care next time finishing and sealing the board.

- Soft - The board is soft to the touch in many places and has always been soft in the thinly glassed places. Is it delaminating due to too much resin removal during vacuuming since I didn't use perforated film over the peelply? Maybe. I'm going full D-cell sandwich next time. I think I can do this and keep the same weight or lighter. I know this will add expense and a few extra steps and possibly some weight. I'll find out if it's worth it. I'm super impressed by the d-cell sections of the board.


My impression is that 1/8" 5lb D-cell is the equivalent of adding a 4oz cloth and epoxy, except it results in a way stiffer laminate. So using this on the board with 3oz spread-tow carbon underneath the whole board should result in no need to double over the rails or add glass on top of the carbon. The only issue is you can't suck much resin through it using the vacuum. The solution, in my mind, is to basically do a poor man's prepreg and keep the resin low to begin with. Anyway, that's my plan! Anyone have advice I'd love to hear it. 
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on June 30, 2022, 02:03:01 PM
New board built right as the above board filled with 2+ lbs of water from the various pinholes and dings.

I did a full dcell wrap. 3oz spread tow underneath the full board. 5.7oz on top and patches on the deck and of course the bottom. 1” dcell diamond around the box as well.

I think I can say that 1lb eps needs a dcell wrap. The board is way more solid than my first, and lighter. 9.4pbs with the pad on. The volume is slightly higher by accident. Maybe 75L. 4’8” x 22.25”. Stoked. More rocker means less nosediving. Slight concave is nice. 2mm high density EVA pad feels more solid than the 1/4” NSI stuff and half the weight. Pinholes don’t matter with a full wrap!

Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: jondrums on July 02, 2022, 11:02:51 AM
looks amazing!  Thanks for the photos

What's between the 1lb EPS and the dcell wrap? 
What is the red filler you're using?
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on July 02, 2022, 06:14:30 PM
2.9oz spread tow carbon. Fingers crossed it’s enough.

It’s just phenolic microballoons from fiberglass supply. I ran out of cabosil so I didn’t use any in the whole build.
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: Dontsink on July 02, 2022, 09:26:28 PM
Wow, looks great!.
How does the PVC wrapping go?.
You shape the blank, wrap in carbon spread tow and Dcell and vacuum bag? .
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on July 02, 2022, 10:02:24 PM
Pretty much every step this guy takes in his series.

https://youtu.be/KqLLLoNWoCo

 For a first timer it was tons of work. You do the carbon under and the wrap at the same time in a vacuum, then the other side. Then you reshape (and fix the bad spots). Then you carry on with glassing and putting in the inserts as normal. Basically double the glassing and bagging and fiddly shaping work.
I did a flat piece on the bottom and cut the beveled parts separately and bagged that together because I wanted a hard edge on the bevels and I wasn’t sure I could get that by just forcing the bag to do the work (still not sure). Also you can’t use much pressure until you have a layer of carbon or dcell or you may lose your rocker line.

 Then I did the top in one piece making little relief cuts. One tricky thing is making sure there are no voids in the edges and bends. I used microballoons on top of my carbon after it was wet out in a table before placing the dcell on top especially on the rails. I will look for a foaming additive for the epoxy next time and mix that on the side for the whole curved rail bit.


https://youtu.be/KqLLLoNWoCo
Title: Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
Post by: Dontsink on July 03, 2022, 04:34:38 AM
Sounds pretty daunting,thx for the vid links!.
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