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General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: toolate on March 20, 2022, 02:51:57 PM

Title: Repair Advice
Post by: toolate on March 20, 2022, 02:51:57 PM
Bad rail ding Jimmy Lewis Carbon Sup. 3 cm into core.

Questions:
1) what is the best way to cut out the damage? Exacto? Dremel and if so what tool?
2) what should i replace the core foam with? Gorilla Glue?
3) i never use carbon to repair my carbon boards. So far no problem. Is that reasonable?


THANKS

Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: PonoBill on March 20, 2022, 03:28:17 PM
You may not need or want to cut out the damage. A picture would help.
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: toolate on March 20, 2022, 03:58:38 PM
sorry: pic here
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: TallDude on March 20, 2022, 05:43:45 PM
Razor blade two vertical lines in the EVA pad about 3" from either edge of the damage. Make the cuts to about an inch above the upper small ding. Use a flat blade on a multi-tool to carefully peel the EVA pad up, then tape it out of the way. You can clean the edge of the hole up, but it doesn't need to be square or round. Pick any loose foam out of the hole and cut away any loose layers / material. Mask two widths of 2" wide masking tape around 2" away from the edge of the hole. Add a tiny bit of water to about a tablespoon of Gorilla Glue and whip it up. You can just hand stir it fast, I do it all the time. Put the board on edge so you are pouring the GG straight down into the hole. In about 6 hours it will be expanded, but I'd let it sit overnight for a hard cure. Trim it off with a saw or small serrated knife. Sand all the paint off down to the glass. Then glass it with a couple of layers of 4 or 6 oz glass. Sand it, paint it, and glue the pad back down.
 
Just did this last week.
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: toolate on March 20, 2022, 06:05:29 PM
thanks Tall guy. that is rail tape you are seeing not EVA pad ..so i might be mistaking your meaning here
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: toolate on March 20, 2022, 06:10:52 PM
so dont worry about removing broken material unless it is really loose?
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: TallDude on March 20, 2022, 08:03:05 PM
Yes. Just sand down or cut off anything sticking up above the finished surface. Basically anything that would prevent the glass from laying down flush with the finished surface.
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: surfcowboy on March 20, 2022, 09:56:14 PM
TD did you foam that and then push the box into all that glue foam? Or did you harden that and route it out?
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: TallDude on March 20, 2022, 11:45:38 PM
I cut the eps out wider than the surface hole by about 1" each side. Poured the foam, let it set, then routed it out with my long box template. Sanded the long box to rough it up, epoxy set with some 4 oz under it and lapping onto the surface. Locks it in solid. Helps prevent leaks around the box as well. Set my leash plugs the same way.
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: SupSimcoe on March 21, 2022, 06:32:28 AM
JL Carbon are full PVC sandwich. Real pain to fix properly. Have to remove the top layer and PVC 1 inch wider than the damage to the inner layer. Then you have to fix foam on inner core and then do a carbon layer repair. After that is complete you have to repair the PVC foam and finish and then you can carbon the top layer and sand and finish and paint.

I just took my JL rail to a professional as it was a lot of work.
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: surfcowboy on March 21, 2022, 07:27:36 AM
This thread has made me think about lateral stability a bit. I'm going to add maybe a 1" by 1/2" thick ring of this HD foam around the boxes to give just a little more lateral grab to the skin. This board will likely get bounced into shorebreak a few times. Might as well shore it up.
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: TallDude on March 21, 2022, 09:38:23 AM
JL Carbon are full PVC sandwich. Real pain to fix properly. Have to remove the top layer and PVC 1 inch wider than the damage to the inner layer. Then you have to fix foam on inner core and then do a carbon layer repair. After that is complete you have to repair the PVC foam and finish and then you can carbon the top layer and sand and finish and paint.

I just took my JL rail to a professional as it was a lot of work.
For a little hole like too late's, you don't need to match the existing build. You could drill a hundred 1" holes spaced apart all over the board and you wouldn't affect it's structural integrity or even impact resistance. The PVC sandwich adds a ton of strength, but it also prevents the board from flexing. Boards that don't flex, don't surf well. For race boards and foil boards it's great. It's just a simple repair. You can spend a lot of time and money V-bagging a little piece of PVC in a hole and match the carbon weight and weave, but it's pointless for a little hole in a painted board.
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: PonoBill on March 21, 2022, 10:23:21 AM
I agree with Talldude, I'd never try to preserve the structure of a board to fix a ding--even a bad one. All you're really looking to do is cap the hole so it doesn't leak. If you broke the board in half or folded it, it might be worthwhile doing what SupSimcoe suggests, but this isn't that.

You can trim the RSPRO tape as tall dude suggests, or you can actually remove it, set it aside somewhere where it won't collect stuff on the adhesive side and most of all, won't fold up and stick to itself. If you're careful about that it can be reapplied once you're done. I've swapped RSPRO rail tape between boards numerous times.

But yes, I wouldn't trim that back aggressively, I'd just pick out the loose stuff, and you don't even need to be too religious about that. the rough edges and remaining bits of PVC, underglass, and carbon will help the Gorilla Glue adhere even better. The only critical part of the repair is sanding off the repair foam and paint from the area you are patching so you have a clean, solid, smooth surface for the glass to adhere to. Since the area is small I'd use table wet 6 oz glass and two layers of 4 oz for a sanding layer. the do the standard sand smooth and hotcoat thing. 

Alternatively, you can use one 6 z and one 4 oz with the 4 oz a little extra wet. Do the "poor man's vac bag thing by taping a square of plastic (not flimsy stuff, it need to have a little firmness to smoothly contour. I use the same 3 mil plastic I use for table wetting) to the bottom of the board, pulling it up tight against the repair while it's still wet and taping it in place on the top of the board. Use tape to pull the plastic tight on both edges and then rub lightly with a credit card to get the repair smooth. This method is a little tricky to get right, but you can forego sanding and hot coating completely. Stick your RSPRO back on once the glass is fully set.

The ends of the RSPRO might tend to lift. Tape it down and set it in the sun. The stuff is weird, it might take a day or two, but once it reglues itself, it stays put.
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: SupSimcoe on March 21, 2022, 11:51:39 AM
Looked like the outer area is about 6 inches long and a few inches wide of actual damage but I could be wrong. Damage under paint can go way further than what you see before sanding.

When I damaged my JL rail the outside only looked 3 inches long but when I got into the inner layer was actually worse. They are very thin carbon layers on these boards. I agree that one could just remove all the damaged inside and outside layers and just do a single layer repair. I prefer to fix things 100 percent but its always up to the owner.
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: toolate on March 21, 2022, 05:26:43 PM
Thanks for the details Ponobill!
One thing is though that jimmy ises a layer of auto paint so when removing he RSPro even with heat the paint comes off!

one question: everytime i mix Gorilla Glue i get too big bubbles.

Not sure what i am doing wrong? I only spritz H2O
I might not have used a dremel to mix it?


I agree with Talldude, I'd never try to preserve the structure of a board to fix a ding--even a bad one. All you're really looking to do is cap the hole so it doesn't leak. If you broke the board in half or folded it, it might be worthwhile doing what SupSimcoe suggests, but this isn't that.

You can trim the RSPRO tape as tall dude suggests, or you can actually remove it, set it aside somewhere where it won't collect stuff on the adhesive side and most of all, won't fold up and stick to itself. If you're careful about that it can be reapplied once you're done. I've swapped RSPRO rail tape between boards numerous times.

But yes, I wouldn't trim that back aggressively, I'd just pick out the loose stuff, and you don't even need to be too religious about that. the rough edges and remaining bits of PVC, underglass, and carbon will help the Gorilla Glue adhere even better. The only critical part of the repair is sanding off the repair foam and paint from the area you are patching so you have a clean, solid, smooth surface for the glass to adhere to. Since the area is small I'd use table wet 6 oz glass and two layers of 4 oz for a sanding layer. the do the standard sand smooth and hotcoat thing. 

Alternatively, you can use one 6 z and one 4 oz with the 4 oz a little extra wet. Do the "poor man's vac bag thing by taping a square of plastic (not flimsy stuff, it need to have a little firmness to smoothly contour. I use the same 3 mil plastic I use for table wetting) to the bottom of the board, pulling it up tight against the repair while it's still wet and taping it in place on the top of the board. Use tape to pull the plastic tight on both edges and then rub lightly with a credit card to get the repair smooth. This method is a little tricky to get right, but you can forego sanding and hot coating completely. Stick your RSPRO back on once the glass is fully set.

The ends of the RSPRO might tend to lift. Tape it down and set it in the sun. The stuff is weird, it might take a day or two, but once it reglues itself, it stays put.
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: TallDude on March 21, 2022, 10:06:52 PM
I've mixed it both ways and got air bubbles. I think a little compression will force the air out. Maybe just after pouring it in, put a piece of wax paper over it, and tape in down. Then punch a few little breather holes in the tape. It may get rid of the big air bubble voids? I'll have to try it...
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: toolate on March 21, 2022, 10:43:26 PM
Jimmy says: Wedge some Styrofoam in it.!
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: PonoBill on March 21, 2022, 11:00:06 PM
Looked like the outer area is about 6 inches long and a few inches wide of actual damage but I could be wrong. Damage under paint can go way further than what you see before sanding.

When I damaged my JL rail the outside only looked 3 inches long but when I got into the inner layer was actually worse. They are very thin carbon layers on these boards. I agree that one could just remove all the damaged inside and outside layers and just do a single layer repair. I prefer to fix things 100 percent but its always up to the owner.

I know it looks big, but then I realized what looks like texture on a deck pad is the little micro-pillows of RSPRO rail tape.
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: toolate on March 22, 2022, 11:00:13 AM
yeah my bad for a rotten photo
any thoughts on just using styrofoam like Jimmy L says?
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: TallDude on March 22, 2022, 05:14:18 PM
That works, though I usually glue the foam in with some GG ;D
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: toolate on March 22, 2022, 11:53:11 PM
thanks Tall Dude. i did that but the styrofoam is not quite up to flush. i wonder if i can cover that with some ballons/ep[oxy mix now that the gap is like 1/8th inch before glassing
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: PonoBill on March 23, 2022, 11:17:00 PM
The benefit of using GG whipped in the first place is that it completely fills the repair with closed cell foam. Now what you need to do is whip some GG and put it in the gap. I don't bother patching anymore.
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: toolate on March 25, 2022, 05:34:56 PM
how do you mean: no more patching?
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: PonoBill on March 26, 2022, 10:45:51 AM
I don't both cutting foam pieces to patch. A small amount of whipped gorilla glue fills the hole completely and with a little practice can be sized to slightly bulge out, giving a perfect platform to conform to the original curves with just one step. Watertight, strong, fills the damage completely, good surface to contour. Why fuck around?
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: Califoilia on March 27, 2022, 10:49:23 AM
I don't both cutting foam pieces to patch. A small amount of whipped gorilla glue fills the hole completely and with a little practice can be sized to slightly bulge out, giving a perfect platform to conform to the original curves with just one step. Watertight, strong, fills the damage completely, good surface to contour. Why fuck around?
Same, and quick story of how my old shaper/repair guy finally switched over to the whipped GG in replace of epoxy in some cases.

So several years ago I was doing a hero's return to the beach pumping side-shore in what turned out to be too shallow of water, and I pumped the foil into the (fortunately sandy) bottom at full speed. After picking myself and my embarrassed ego up out of the water, after flipping the board over, I was sure I was going to find the boxes certainly torn out of the board with as hard as I had mashed things. But much to my surprise and delight, all was intact, and things appeared no worse for the wear (we had already started using dual stringers to attach the boxes directly board back then and this was my first "proof of concept" so-to-speak ::);D). 

It wasn't until several weeks and multiple sessions later that I noticed a little water bubbling up from the rear of one of the boxes, and upon further inspection saw that the impact had actually compressed the foam under the box, and the additional stress of the foil had caused a slight crack around the back of the box where water was now entering. Taking back to my shaper - since it was a fin box and I wasn't confident in my box repair capabilities at the time - he said it'd be an easy fix, and later proceeded to drill multiple holes around the rear and part way up the sides of the box where he then injected epoxy with a syringe into the holes.

Welp, apparently, the epoxy kicked off too hot, smoke started pouring out of the holes, and it began melting the EPS foam underneath causing an ever greater problem than was originally there. Upon returning to the shop after he had called with the news, I tried my best to not be the "I told you so" guy, but when dropping off the board I had talked to him about the whipped GG I had already used in several other easier repair in place of the epoxy, after he explained how he was going to fix it...which he obviously poo-pooed, I think just because he just wasn't familiar with it or believed possible.

To save time and space, I'll just say that then after a full on demonstration of mixing GG and H2O in a Dixie cup for him, and letting him see firsthand how much it expands, how well it bonds, and how strong/dense of "foam" it makes...he jumped aboard the whipped GG train, and as of the last time I spoke with him 5-6 months ago, he's still amazed and loving how well it works in so many repair applications.
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: toolate on March 27, 2022, 01:50:25 PM
i dunno what I havebeen doing wrong as when i whip up GG i get large bubbles under the hard shiny surface
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: Beasho on March 28, 2022, 08:01:13 AM
When you whip the gorilla glue with a few spritzís of water it will eventually turn white.  If the cured product still has a yellow tint you didnít whip it enough.  The yellow stuff will have larger bubbles. Use a dremel at medium speed and test with Dixie cup.  The whipped solution will also harden quickly.  ~15 minutes to set.  Dry in an hour.
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: toolate on March 28, 2022, 06:26:01 PM
THANKS ALL!
Title: Re: Repair Advice
Post by: sflinux on March 29, 2022, 06:36:36 PM
I agree with Beasho, if you have large bubbles, the solution wasn't mixed well enough, or you added too much water.  You would be surprised at how little water is needed.  I now use a dropper, usually 2 drops is plenty for a tablespoon of glue.
If you are on a budget, harbor freight has a rotary tool that mixes/whips glue/water well. 
https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/rotary-oscillating-tools/rotary-tools/07-amp-rotary-tool-kit-80-pc-63235.html (https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/rotary-oscillating-tools/rotary-tools/07-amp-rotary-tool-kit-80-pc-63235.html)
The harbor freight tool sucks for cutting though (and is not compatible with dremel accessories), get a dremel if that is your need.
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