Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: daswusup on February 19, 2022, 08:39:19 AM
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What up Zoners? I have been perusing windsurf/sup classifieds to repurpose a fast, lightish board so that I can put a foil on and try my hand at the flatwater pump up. I will probably end up getting a Kalama 6'5" at some point but am looking for a cheap alternative to slap a foilmount on and get started. I skipped windsurfing so any of you with knowledge, please chime in on what type of windurfer might work with some similar dims like 23"W, 100-130L, 6-7'Long. Maybe even a tippy race sup. We have had an amazingly windless 60 days here in Reno and I need something to feed my foilbrain. I am convinced that downwind supfoiling is completely doable here on Tahoe, Pyramid and Washoe lake. Looking to pioneer some up wind winging to downwind paddle foiling around here. Send it!!!
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No board advice here, but a local foiler was just up in Tahoe and kept putting video's of the lake in his instagram stories talking about how good the downwind bumps were.
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Link please?
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If it’s your first go I would suggest going for stability over board speed. If you can’t stand up and paddle with confidence then a shorter narrower board will be a kill joy. Our open water sup race boards are 14’to 17’ long and are designed to glide on the bumps. A Downwind foil sup 5’ to 7’ isn’t gliding much at all but for the initial forward movement as you attempt to pop up on foil. BTW that pic looks totally doable! I did a Kihei run here yesterday in water with a lot less energy. Not knowing your size/weight/sup skills it would be hard to say what would work for you. Shorter and wider is what I would use for short period swells. Longer and narrower for long period . Hope that helps
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If it’s your first go I would suggest going for stability over board speed. If you can’t stand up and paddle with confidence then a shorter narrower board will be a kill joy. Our open water sup race boards are 14’to 17’ long and are designed to glide on the bumps. A Downwind foil sup 5’ to 7’ isn’t gliding much at all but for the initial forward movement as you attempt to pop up on foil. BTW that pic looks totally doable! I did a Kihei run here yesterday in water with a lot less energy. Not knowing your size/weight/sup skills it would be hard to say what would work for you. Shorter and wider is what I would use for short period swells. Longer and narrower for long period . Hope that helps
I used to race paddleboards when that was cool for 3-4 years. 185lbs expert paddler. I am not so concerned about this board working for actual DW, so tippiness not such a big factor. I just want a cheap flatwater pumper. I think like a grom race board might work. Or a longboard(surf). I should just try my 9'0 x 22 longboard. I want to devise a system to strap on a foil to any board. I did it with a kitefoil once. It shouldn't have to be super bomber, as it only will be used in flatwater. I want to be all trained up and ready for the Kehei run next October.
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Instagram.com/foilwithme But the stories are all gone now unfortunately.
I've never SUP'd so take this all with a grain and salt, but from what I've gathered from James Casey, Jeremy Riggs and other online sources. Longer and narrower will give you more board speed, which will help you get on foil faster. You want the largest foil you can get your hands on. Seriously large. AXIS 1150. GoFoil 280 being the easiest candidates.
Watch Jeremy Rigg's instagram for free tips. Your paddle technique is very important. So even if you just buy a cheap SUP and train paddling that with no foil on it you'll have a head start. I've seen PLENTY of really good foilers grab a "downwind SUP foil board" and then fail miserably in very good downwind conditions. Guys who would make 20+ mile runs on their prone boards, only getting a quarter mile of on foil time on the downwind sup. That's all due to them having very little SUP paddle experience.
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Almost all of the cheap windsurfers you see for sale are usually quite old, this means that they are very narrow, foiled out tail, volume way forward, longish and heavy.I would get your DW specific board as soon as you can and spend your time practicing with that.
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Check the LA, OC & San Diego craigslist - you can get a SUP Foil board board for $600 to $700 - I am not sure the stick on foil mount bracket will last very long if you intend to pump the board.
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I just re-read your post. If you can arrange transport from LA I can sell you a wingboard that needs a tiny bit of work for $500. The guy I bought it from fixed the boxes solid, but didn't sand the tail that well and there are at least 3 pinholes I noticed my last go out. I'm sort of lazy about fixing that kind of stuff and might just tape it up for awhile, so I can untape it when I come in and make sure it's fully dry before I have someone fix it.
Winging might be a better option for you since the gear is more readily available so better used deals and it's in a way easier to do.
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Hdip, he's a winger. Which confused me too.
Let me see if I can summarize. He's a winger who wants to eventually DW SUP. But he's only looking to train on days when there's not enough wind to wing.
TBH if it was me I'd paddle a regular non SUP longboard. A 9' foamie is 24" wide and cheap. Buy that, learn to paddle it without a foil and you're ready for anything the ocean throws at you. If you can't do that, evaluate your choices, right? 😆
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It is not that complicated to understand.
He wants to DW SUP but prefers not to buy an expensive board right now,without giving a try at the uber difficult flat water Sup foil takeoff.
So he is looking for a used windsurfer or sup with the foilmount to check it out.
IMHO is not a bad idea, on paper that is :).
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The problem in his plan is Jeremy Riggs who can paddle up a kalama downwind board in three paddles, says he tries other guys boards and can’t get them off the water.
Jeremy even paddled up the kalama wearing a 20 pound weighted vest.
Gear is so important in this stupid sport.
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The problem in his plan is Jeremy Riggs who can paddle up a kalama downwind board in three paddles, says he tries other guys boards and can’t get them off the water.
Jeremy even paddled up the kalama wearing a 20 pound weighted vest.
Gear is so important in this stupid sport.
Yup
Having tried the flatwater pump on a 6.2 Supfoil board i have to agree..it is a very humbling experience.
My board is not DW specific but it was disheartening because i did not feel even the slightest bit of lift no matter how hard i tried to paddle&pump.And the foil was a big LOL 1900 for my 73kg.
I have put this on the backburner, first the dockstart and then i may try again.
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I couldn't edit my post above, but I just thought of something else. James Casey was saying he used wingnut screws to mount a foil and it causes extra drag. I kind of scoffed at that and asked Zane Westwood to do a blind test with him on a downwind run. Two boards and foils setup the same, one with wingnut screws and one with regular hardware that is flush. They BOTH laughed at me and said there's no reason to do it, the extra drag is obvious. So using a foilmount to try and flat water pump seems like a non-starter to me.
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Hard to believe wingnut screws are going to have more drag than the fact that they eliminated the Tuttle box and put a handle on the bottom of the new Kalama downwind boards ???
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I'll bet the plate drags more too. It's just that one has become acceptable and one is convenience. I've no doubt the Tuttle is slipperier. But as a guy who's made a board I can say that a Tuttle really locks you in. Let's not take over this thread but riders who switch between Axis and Lift, for example couldn't likely do that on the same prone board with Tuttle. The center of lift is too far apart to move your feet effectively on a small board. So we get this method of attachment. I still think there's a better way too.
But back to drag, suspect things like a leash drag and other small things contribute to this. We've all felt a single piece of grass make things feel bad. From what I've felt trying, this barely works in the best of conditions. Best keep things as clean as you can.
Wondering if the Kalama is just the first of many improvements. Hmmmm
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I got lost - What aspect of the Kalama board make it special for Down Wind SUP?
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I got lost - What aspect of the Kalama board make it special for Down Wind SUP?
They have a somewhat canoe shape,less width and more lenght so they paddle much better than short,boxy sups.
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Thanks for all of the opinions. I have been winging for 3 years and have short, fat, slow wing boards coming out of my wazoo. I think that the Kalama is the best and most expensive shot that I will have. I will use my Axis 1050 and 1099 to try. Saw a guy on IG this morning pump up a casey board on a 1050. He did have a tiny bump to help.
I am intrigued by the potential to do this on glassy days and get a full body workout. To me, getting this skillset in my wheelhouse will open up catching any bump anywhere. The applications are mind boggling. I winged yesterday on the 1099 Crazy short, 82 carbon and 375P. The wind was light but as soon as a gust rolled through, I was up and would fly right into no wind. What was cool was that I could flag out and pump the 1099 as far as I wanted. So, I was just using the wingding to get a waterstart, and then it was all on me to stay up. I love this game. When I learn to paddle up, I won't need any wind and will be able to pump better not having a 5M wet tarp to drag around. Of course I will be on a 6'5" board instead of my 5'0 wingboard. I think it will still be better.
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I'm interested but I guess not enough to give up a good day of winging ::)
Another big help appears to be using a VERY short mast, think 65cm. Cheap enough with Axis alu. The wings you mention though will be difficult to learn on, something like the BSC 1120, maybe the PNG 1150 at the smallest would be easier.
The irony of downwind sup foil is, the equipment needed for the first 10-20 seconds is a hindrance the rest of the run. A 170HP Seadoo is about $35/hour to operate, with two friends this seems pretty reasonable. Now you can use a tiny 5# prone board and tow up two guys for a DW run while the third drives. I'd go this route but my GF would dump me, she'd actually prefer I didn't own a car :(
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I'm interested but I guess not enough to give up a good day of winging ::)
Another big help appears to be using a VERY short mast, think 65cm. Cheap enough with Axis alu. The wings you mention though will be difficult to learn on, something like the BSC 1120, maybe the PNG 1150 at the smallest would be easier.
The irony of downwind sup foil is, the equipment needed for the first 10-20 seconds is a hindrance the rest of the run. A 170HP Seadoo is about $35/hour to operate, with two friends this seems pretty reasonable. Now you can use a tiny 5# prone board and tow up two guys for a DW run while the third drives. I'd go this route but my GF would dump me, she'd actually prefer I didn't own a car :(
Good point about the first 20 seconds. Wingboards are similarly designed for takeoff. I have wanted a jetski for about 20 years. I need to get a jet ski partner.
I have pondered the feasibility of a compressed air shot for a take off boost. Soda stream bottles. I'm no engineer but we don't need much thrust for very long.
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The foil drive assist has 1-2hr battery time.
For DW learning a 15min battery would be enough i think. 10 starts,10 screwups.Go home.
Cheaper,lighter.You could use it later with faster foils or on sketchy days.
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Dave's DW boards are the result of a long and expensive effort to make the best downwind boards for the Maui foil downwind crew. I take one look at them and say "nope, not for me." Long, narrow, tippy, fast and mean. I need something stable and friendly if I'm even going to think of climbing to my feet without assistance.
My solution is I'm building a number of different flavors of foil assist drives. Because I'm nuts, that's why. No, wait, it's because I can, and really want to be able to downwind foil, but getting my fat, old ass off the water with a paddle just doesn't seem likely. So--yay--technology. I'm still waiting for parts, but I have a selection of mast adapters 3d Printed and I'm working my way through destructively testing them. So far I've broken three and given up on one as being too wimpy.
The Australian Foil Drive thingy is well thought out, works pretty well out of the box, but for me it's a non-starter. I want something I can trust out in the middle of a Maliko run, and that ain't it. I don't necessarily believe I can build something more trustworthy, but I can give it a serious try. So I am.
I'm taking a short respite to build a new Prusa 3D printer. I've got two wimpy Ender 3 printers here in Maui but I don't dare leave the garage when they're printing more exotic materials because I fully expect the hot ends to melt and catch fire.
Here's the most recent victim of the testing program. the motor mount plug failed with 45 pounds of weight hanging from it.
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Bill, your idea is right. We had a dude here break his folding prop 10 min in the water with nothing he could see to hit. Build it bomber.
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Yeah, I got my new Prusa up and running and I'm gearing up to print carbon fiber reinforced Polycarbonate. I've been experimenting with thick wall PETG prints, and they're strong, but my first part printed with CFPC made me a believer. It also roached out my extruder nozzle--brass nozzles don't like the stuff, so I'm waiting for a set of tungsten carbide nozzles.
I got a care package from Flipsky, the motor I bought included a cast aluminum prop which I'm looking at like it's the business end of a blender, but one reason for going big on the motor is to compensate for drag. I can print a shroud for it and not worry too much about the added drag if I implement my "idle" idea well enough. I'm going to build the thing so the motor drops back to some idle speed when I release the trigger and doesn't stop completely until I pull the dead man switch. The idle will be tuned to compensate for drag if the motor drops back into the water. Anti-faceplant device.
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Back to the topic at hand (sort of) some of the guys who are building their own versions of the foildrive are putting them on Kalama-style hulls that they are building themselves or having built. The only place I've seen his actual DW boards is Maui and the Gorge. They obviously are the board of choice for doing all versions of this splinter sport. But they're like getting a Mike's Lab foil--the expense is just the first hurdle.
Oh, and one more thing. the carbon foilmount is actually a pretty cool device and fairly slippery. Most of the drag would probably come from the Wizard Hat hardware, which is also pretty cool stuff--I consider them to be an absolute requirement if you have to do mast plate shims--but definitely draggy. As insensitive as I am to changes to my board (I rarely put the mast in the same place twice) I can feel the Wizard Hats.
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Konrad board. Boxes placed far forward. More good boards are coming. Prices will come down.