Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Northern foil monkey on January 15, 2022, 03:44:56 AM
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I am thinking of doing what I expect is a cardinal sin, and moving from Armstrong to Axis... Intermediate Wingfoiler, big fella at 105kg 6'3, gybing, tacking, wave riding, some jumps, currently riding Armstrong 1550v1 and a 1050, was looking for a performance power-up and have trsted some other Armstrong wings.
Love Armstrong... but then I test rode the Axis ART999 OMG it would just about replace both the 1050 and 1550... Questions...
How strong is the Axis stuff? (especially the carbon mast), I am big, and heavy and I break stuff often. Armstrong is bulletproof.
I leave my foils set up permenantly, Axis alloy Fuze able to handle that without corrosion?
It felt much less livels and turny than the Armstrong, ant thoughts on that? can it be improved?
Anyone think Armstrong is likely to come out with more user friendly HA wings?
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Just do some tefgel and you can leave it all set up. If you want it really loose then a 350 progressive rear and you'll also have added speed. I haven't broken any mast and I do a lot of jumping with my gear so in my experience they're bomb proof.
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I ride Axis. As far as durability goes, there is nothing to worry about. At your 105kg I would recommend going with the aluminum 19m mast if the flex bothers you. It is stiffer than the carbon. That being said, I love my carbon Axis mast as it is way less draggy than the ALU. I am not certain but I think I heard that Axis carbon is stiffer than Armstrong's. The 999 has some built in flex which can be weird for the first few sessions but then you learn to use it to your advantage. If you properly grease all the parts, they should be fine. I leave mine assembled as well but before most sessions I do a quick 1/2 turn loose and then tighten the bolts. As far as lively and turny, the ultra short and crazy short fuse help liven things up. If you want to haul ass get a 380 tail. For everything else a progressive. I run the 375 progressive with the ART999 and it is lovely. I and a bunch of other frothers here think Axis is the most progressive and innovative foil builders in the biz. They have triple the catalogue to choose from compared to other companies. They churn out new wings every few months which keeps them on the leading edge of foil design. Its a bit overwhelming looking through the catalogue but it makes sense pretty quickly. I would steer you toward a 1050 HPS as a light wind option. The 999 can be tough to get up in light conditions. If you want turny and surfy grab a BSC 890. Evan loves the HPS 830. I have not tried it yet. When I order Axis things, they show up a day or 2 later.
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Ive considered making the switch too, but am holding off till my skills get better. If I were to go to Axis I'd definitely get the Project Cedrus mast. Especially for a bigger guy that's jumping.
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And there's this:
https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/ALCHEMY-SYSTEM-ready-for-Preorders
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My friend has one of the Alchemy fuses. It's pretty sweet, fantastic idea, but not sure I'd really go that route unless I was REALLY into mixing and matching different brands of foils, tails, and masts.
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For me the Armstrong mast is so limiting, to flexy and no easy way to use another brand mast. Alchemy building a product line around that mast is pretty baffling to me, best guess there are a lot light weight riders who don't notice or who only ride the shorter masts.
Axis 19mm is stiff and I have control of my foil instead of wandering all over the place. The Axis mast and design are a good platform to build around, the doodad makes creating adapters straight forward which opens up a huge range of wings that can be ridden from various brands.
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Armstrong is bulletproof.
Not really. That’s why they doubled the amount of screws holding it together. Hex wears out. Especially for heavy guys.
It felt much less livels and turny than the Armstrong, ant thoughts on that?
Your comparing a mid aspect to high aspect. Mid aspect will always roll quicker.
Anyone think Armstrong is likely to come out with more user friendly HA wings?
That’s not the only area of concern. They just don’t have enough tail offerings to suit every rider style.
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Thanks for your thoughts everyone, think I am still leaning more and more towards the AXIS ART999 The other option was Armstrong 1550v2, I am writting off the Armstrong HA as not user friendly enough.
Worth mentioning I am in New Zealand, great to live in the centre of the world for foil development, but rubbish to be in the arse end of the world when it comes to overseas foil gear. The cost of buying and shipping from overseas both Project Cedus and Alchemy make both of them not a viable option. One of the reasons I considered this is the used marked for Armstrong gear is sooo good, I can make the switch to Axis without it costing anything significant
I think my main worry was durability, I ride Wellington, it's pretty full on wild here, this is not a light wind cruisy spot, and it's almopst entirely Armstrong, black and white stripes everywhere! and I don't know anyone that has ever broken an Armstrong product. It sounds like the Axis Carbons are pretty strong but just wanted to make sure.
I am ruling out aluminium masts, I personally know two people, who are both much lighter than me who have bent Axis 19mm aluminium masts, one who bent an Axis red fuze, and I have bent an aluminium mast (another brand, on the very first session). I understand they are stiff and strong etc etc... but don't wanna be holding back all the time for fear of bending a mast, so it's carbon or stick with Armstrong. Also I actually like the lively poppy feel you get from carbon masts, even if there is a bit of flex.
Appreciate your thoughts on losening it all up by adding different tails, will look into it, the one I tested had the 400 speed tail and the Ultrashort.
Thanks
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I didn’t think the axis 19mm mast could be bent. Crazy. I’d say axis has the better wing selection. Worse mast. Axis improves all the time though so they’re likely to fix any issues you might have over the course of six months. Whether that’s a plus or a minus depends how often you like buying new gear.
A bunch of guys in Los Angeles including myself all rode axis and ground wings into cobblestones and reefs. No broken wings from actually foiling that I know of.
I personally used the tefgel they supply and would leave the wings and fuse together for two months at a time. Only once did I ever have a stuck screw. Me brother uses electric tools to put his together and take it apart and has had several stuck screws. Shrugs.
Axis is strong. I was never worried about babying it. Every couple months I would take all the screws out soak and put back together with tefgel. They didn’t have a good carbon mast back then so I eventually moved on.
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In my opinion. Having looked at all the options, Cedrus mast with axis fuse is the absolute best you can get from the standpoint of durability and ruggedness.
I break and bend all kinds of gear for years and years. I leave this setup in my car without taking it apart for dozens of sessions, no issues.
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Electric tools are excellent for galling stainless into aluminum and permanently welding them together. It's the spinning that does the friction welding. There's actually an entire welding tech built around spinning parts into each other with a friction weld that looks like the parts grew together. for the people who expect Titanium parts to solve the problem, the tech is used mostly with Titanium. That hexagonal grain structure loves to weld together. I use an electric impact driver and minimal TefGel and I've had very few problems, but I always expect there to be a hacksaw, drills, taps, and a lot of cursing in my future. So far I've been stupidly lucky, but I'm fairly religious about TefGel use, and no, I don't mean I use it at Christmas and Easter.
I have bent a 19mm Aluminum mast, I'm not even sure how I did it. My board just suddenly insisted on turning right when I got lifted. But that's one in three-plus years of beating the shit out of them.
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https://www.mcmaster.com/56405A19/
https://www.mcmaster.com/56405A18/
Stainless steel torx screwdrivers.
Add silicone grip tape to the handles for more power.
Safe, fast, easy.
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Final question... anyone ever had any problem at all with AXIS carbon mast?
Electric tools are not an issue, I pull apart gear so rarely I can handle doing it by hand. I have never dissassembled my armstrong kit since new, not once, I check the screws occasionally, and obviously change the front wing from time to time.
My final decision is to buy the ART999 bottom half and use a used or borrowed ALU mast until I am able to get a carbon (unless anyone tells me a reason not to?).
Thanks folks,
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No problems with Axis carbon. They use brass barrel nuts in the head. No tef-gel needed.
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Having made my own foil rigs for longer than I should have, I can honestly say (when I was mature enough to have my own production rig) it was a toss up between Axis and Armstrong as far as durability. Both systems seemed to be pretty popular around New England. What flipped me into the Axis camp (ART999 -possibly?) was the strong, simple and reproduceable design of the fuselage to wing connection. I could easily convert foils I've made to the Axis fuselage. Getting orders filled quickly was also a great benefit. Also, i very much dislike having parts which can become fused like the mast to fuse connection that Armstrong offers. Once sand gets in, problems can occur. I also saw a buddies Armstrong fuselage bend at the tail bolts. Both, very good well engineered systems but I prefer the simplicity of Axis.
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Since it has been a couple months since I swapped and in a nutshell I have no regrets moving to Axis and I am loving the ART series foils. but in the interest of not being a fan-boy of either camp thought I would update with my honest opinion/review/comparison pros and cons of each.
I ended up going with:
-ALU 19mm 90cm
-Carbon 86cm (because I got offered a used one so thought worth a try)
-Ultrashort black fuse
-400 progressive tail
-ART999
-ART1099
-(hoping to soon get ART899)
Axis Pros
-It just rides far better, and I tested it against the Armstrong 925 as well, the ART999 was both faster and more user friendly that the Army HA foils, the ART wings are incredible.
999 pretty much replaces both my old 1050 and 1550 Armstrong for wind range, it out-glides them both, turns almost as well, will foil in lighter winds than the 1550 (once flying), and have been out in 35+kts and not found it max wind yet.
1099 is an entirely different beast, I find it a bit dull on flat water, but it is great for gliding through wind holes, once on foil you can pretty much stay up forever, but its happy place is small waves where the glide is endless but it still turns far better than should be possible for this span.
799 (just a few trial runs) was surprisingly easy to ride, although a step up in performance was not hard or scary at all, but think at 105kg I am just a bit heavy for it to be useful to me.
-The price - so much cheaper than Armstrong
-The range of products is huge, and the amount of cheaper used gear on the market is huge - Axis riders do love to change gear alot!
What I love about Armstrong vs Axis
-The build quality and finish just feels better in every way, I broke a tip of my Axis 400, just clipping a fence post carrying my board, and have put a number of small scratches in the foils already, and I don't even know how. I ran my Armstrong setup onto a rock reef a couple times and barely left a mark.
-Set and forget no messing about with tefgel, no rinsing salt off, no drying things before packing away, no worrying about anything rotting/corroding/seizing.
-The pack includes all covers, all bags, titanium screws - no hidden costs.
-I could do everything on my 1550 without having to swap foils, I never even changed a tail wing and it did everything I wanted it to do as-is. I can feel myself being pulled into the Axis arms race of having to buy different foils for different situations and have a quiver of tail wings etc.
AXIS Carbon vs Alu mast
To my surprise I prefer the Alu mast. The carbon noticeably both faster, more lively and lighter, but... seems to get speed wobbles when gunning it, and it feels generally less stable. The Carbon is now for sale.
Armstrong vs Axis mast feel
The scientific wobble test on the beach tells you nothing and it's not all just about stiffness, there is something about the flex patterns in that Armstrong mast that just works. The Armstrong mast feels less stiff on the beach, however in the water somehow feels better than the Axis carbon imho.
The Axis Alu however feels super direct, super stable and controlled, even gunning feels super safe, not a wobble, although I can feel the extra drag and weight. Hopefully Axis next mast is a light fast carbon mast that feels like their alloy.
As an interesting side note it seems that Armstrong 85cm was 4cm longer than the Axis 86cm when all set up.
All just my opinion and my 2cents, but I love the Axis stuff to ride if they could match Armstrongs business and build we would have the perfect NZ foil company!
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I've decided that the axis ART 899, 999, and 1099 is pretty much the perfect quiver for my 95kg. Huge range between the three foils and they do everything well.
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Hopefully Axis next mast is a light fast carbon mast that feels like their alloy.
I'm reading between the lines here. But, Dwight just sold his AXIS carbon masts for cheap. He typically has the gear to replace whatever he's selling already. I'm taking that as a good sign. :)
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NoLimitz now has an axis version, and looks incredible. Lower drag, light and plenty stiff.
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Hopefully Axis next mast is a light fast carbon mast that feels like their alloy.
I'm reading between the lines here. But, Dwight just sold his AXIS carbon masts for cheap. He typically has the gear to replace whatever he's selling already. I'm taking that as a good sign. :)
I saw an instagram post of what looked like an axis carbon mast with no red on it- all black "900." Seems early for a new mast from them since I think they just released their V2 less than a year ago. I've had issues with bubbling on the finish on my 86cm carbon. I polished it, then had problems with cavitating. I sanded it with trizac 3000 and it seems to have helped.
I wonder if this is why oceanpixels and others use the aluminum masts.
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I think once you're over 200 lbs. it's just going to be terribly hard to beat the AXIS 19MM for stiffness. Oxeanpixels is a big guy. He stays up for 45 minutes in the surf, so it obviously works for him.
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NoLimitz now has an axis version, and looks incredible. Lower drag, light and plenty stiff.
Please share!
;D See link here to NoLimitz system:
https://www.nolimitz.com/foilmasts
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NoLimitz now has an axis version, and looks incredible. Lower drag, light and plenty stiff.
Please share!
;D See link here to NoLimitz system:
https://www.nolimitz.com/foilmasts
Did you try one Beasho?
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I think once you're over 200 lbs. it's just going to be terribly hard to beat the AXIS 19MM for stiffness. Oxeanpixels is a big guy. He stays up for 45 minutes in the surf, so it obviously works for him.
Yeah 45 minutes seems good enough, clearly there's a host of other factors more important than the difference between a 16.1mm mast and a 19mm. The example study No Limitz quotes looks at the difference between 12.3 and 19mm. I'd like a $1200 new carbon toy too but at 12x the price?!
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NoLimitz is comparing a 19 mm mast with a 12 mm mat but their mast is 16,1 mm thick!
Nolimitz concludes: At 0 degrees yaw and 50% mast immersion, a 2-5% increase in overall drag can be expected in the 10-25knot range when using a 19mm mast as compared to a 12mm mast.
Probably the difference between a 16,1 mm and a 19 mm mast is very very small , that might be the reason that they compared a 12 mm mast to a 19 mm mast and not a 16,1 mm.
The increase of control with a stiffer mast is more important when you weigh more than 80 kg imo.
Unfortunately they didn't test the stiffness of the NoLimitz mast against the Axis mast , perhaps they did but its not on the website.....
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There is some interesting commentary on mast stiffness / efficiency on the recent Progression Project podcast (Unifoil episode). Erik has been testing Cedrus (very stiff / less glide) vs NoLimitz (less stiff / more glide) vs Unifoil (balanced). There isn't really a perfect conclusion, but it seems like Erik's opinion based on his type of riding is that when pumping comes into play, the efficiency bonus that a stiff mast provides offsets the increased drag. He also makes a statement that at winging speeds where pumping is less of a focus, glide might offset stiffness.
I'm sure there are computer programs that can easily model this and give us a proper answer...
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I'm sure there are computer programs that can easily model this and give us a proper answer...
The guys at Inde Foil have done the work for you.
https://www.indefoil.com/foildesign/mast-thickness-drag
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I'm sure there are computer programs that can easily model this and give us a proper answer...
The guys at Inde Foil have done the work for you.
https://www.indefoil.com/foildesign/mast-thickness-drag
As I said they only compared a 12 mm to a 19 mm mast and not a 16,1 mm to 19 mm mast.