Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: daswusup on December 04, 2021, 07:22:50 AM
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I had a convertible naish kite in 2000ish and then a Hokua SUP. They were a major force in kiting, suping and I'm guessing pole-boarding. They were always there, innovating, leading. Now the only time I ever hear about them is in Chuck Patterson insta and that Aussie downwinder guy, JB. When Kai was riding for them, I saw a lot more Naish posts. I think there's one guy at my beach who has an ancient beginner naish set up. I never really hear anyone frothing about the newest Naish gear. What happened?
Can anyone speak to what happened to this global powerhouse brand that is represented by a legendary waterman? My thoughts are that Kai leaving was a huge setback. Robby aging isn't helping appeal to the younger audience. Have they lost they're mojo? Or is this just my micro world view?
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Listening to Robby on podcasts and youtube, I get a general impression he personally, is not obsessed with chasing performance or technology. He seems to like keeping life simple. Does that affect the brand? Maybe.
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I see Robby every so often. I'll ask him about it. He's used to pain-in-the ass questions from me. Anything I say without spending the time to dig into the question would be just a guess, but I'd say they're a step or two behind. Why? Not sure.
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As far as prone foiling goes. You either started three years ago on Naish or gofoil. I started on Naish. It was an aluminum mast and fuse. The industry moved beyond them quickly. We all moved to different brands. Going back to aluminum now seems a step backwards. If you want to ride aluminum you ride axis. Otherwise you ride one of the all carbon brands.
I foil with a Naish rep. He makes the new ha gear look real good.
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Seems that surfing in all forms favor the small, nimble, and innovative. When a business gets to a certain scale it becomes more about production, distribution, and profit. Naish products are generally pretty good, just not noteworthy. I got a good deal on a Naish board that suits my skill level and isn't extremely different from other 95L boards at 5'7"x 27 1/2. However I didn't go with Naish foils or wings because I thought other available brands were significantly better at roughly the same price.
My 2 cents.
It may be very hard (not impossible) for a big brand to be the cool kid that get's talked about.
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Marketing and sponsorship. We're still surfing so we are affected. That's my guess.
If you don't pay, you don't have hype. But Naish doesn't need hype, so why bother with the money? Kai doesn't have foil deals because he's too expensive. Red Bull and Hurley can pay 6-7 figures. That's the yearly budget for some small brands I'll wager.
If you can sell gear without spending several million (Naish can) then leverage your past performance and keep the company smaller and more profitable. Otherwise you're chasing growth that might not be there.
Rod Stewart has a new album. It's not going to be the Faces and he's not going to new markets on tour. He'll do classic stuff and play Vegas and stack chips. Robbie is in Vegas, God Bless him. He earned it. He seems to enjoy every day on the water.
Some money is too expensive.
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Nice analysis Cowboy. People could ask the same about Jimmy Lewis. Lots of people have his boards, lots of people understand that they are fundamentally bulletproof. But Jimmy does what he wants to do. I suspect Robbie does too. Of course, he and Michi Schweiger are amazing wingfoilers.
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I don't know. When I was researching what company to go with they were in the top few. Since I've been paying attention for about a year, they have been near the leaders in regards to high aspect foils, with an 7.9AR 1040 that has been out for some time, or a 914cm 8.4AR foil. Not to mention the fact that you can put the kite foils on the same fuse (I think). It's enough to make me confident if I went with them I wouldn't get left in the dust.
I'm surprised people aren't talking about them more. Maybe people who ride naish are on the water too much to use computers...
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I agree.. There doesn’t seem to be much interest or discussion about Naish here and I don’t know why.. If there was maybe I would post more.
I think Naish started as a very much entry level foiling brand and took a few year to evolve into a brand leader (or one of) but I think their early reputation has stuck with some people.. I sometimes hear comments like I used to use Naish but my new gear is so much better but you are comparing apples with oranges.
I love the brand and I have seen their foil gear continuously improving.. Robby is a huge winging and foiling fan and their latest offerings are a result of his enthusiasm to the sport.. He wants the Naish products to be up their with the best without being too hi tech or expensive with fun being more important than race winning after seeing how windsurfing became too technical and expensive for most people.
I’ve heard there’s some great new foiling gear coming from Naish and I can’t wait to see it.. There’s lots of happy Naish wing-foiling people down here in Oz.
https://vimeo.com/642948787
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All my foils are Naish now, as I wingfoil and kitefoil all the parts are interchangeable. It's great to turn up to the beach with just one foil and two boards to do either.
Probably the most cost effective high performance foils currently available. A foil bag, wing covers, tool and all hardware including mast mounting plates are included in the kit.
I'm using the HA wings for winging and 810 for kitefoil all mounted on the 95 or 85cm composite masts.
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I never really hear anyone frothing about the newest Naish gear. What happened?
Brother, I am sending the dog sh!t out of my Naish S26 Hover Wing Carbon Ultra Foilboard. Its super light, smacks the water and releases with no effort. I use it for WingDing and also for SUP foiling. Great all around er.
I have many Naish stand ups and have plenty of gripes about those (Sh!tty Brittle Construction), but they are light and high performance. I paid like $1500-$2000 a piece and cant even sell them for $200 now. !
I am pretty sure I could prone foil the S26 also.
The new Naish Wings look sick.
Never hear anything about the foils but I see folks sending it big on instagrunt.
Not a Naish fan boi but ended up cutting my teeth with them.
so there is my Naish post. :)
-red
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I have an S25 Ultra 85l and it is by far the best constructed board i have had or tried, in terms of weight/toughness ratio.Superb.
The wing and foil market is still a bit of a maelstrom.
Wings are going to be new material (aluula,xply etc..) or second rate next year.
How many foils does Axis have?.Remember Armie Armstrong saying HA was a no go?.GoFoil info in bits, rumours and rubber mallets, Takuma's threads are full of lore on shimming,epoxy potting and first aid for small cuts...i have not tried the Naish foils but from vids etc they seem to be doing fine in all this turbulence.
Big companies that want to provide a finished,tested,available product are going to look "slow" compared to smaller biz.I think Naish is doing fine, better than Starboard for example.I see Naish wingfoil gear quite often in the water,and it is not cheap.
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Same here. I love my Naish S26 GS board for its lightness, construction, looks, and how well it works. Robby's video of the board is what sold it, but I wasn't really turned on by the Naish foils and wings.
Many might not admit it or care but a small part of why some people go with certain brands could be aesthetics. Coming into the sport knowing nothing, I didn't have much to go on other than what the stuff looked like on the internet. Even though the Go Foils had a great reputation, the blue foil wings looked like cheap plastic. The black and yellow colors of the Naish foils didn't turn me on either. Nor did I like the colors of the Naish wings.
The Axis stuff looks awesome and the website is really well done. The foil shapes made sense to me and I like the detailed info on everything. The Zone reviews had nothing but good things to say about the brand, so that's what I went with. No regrets so far.
The wing was my first purchase. I knew nothing at that point. Duotones were very popular so I went with the Duotone Unit. It was a great first wing. It's hard to judge a wing until you have it in your hands. My second wing was an Ozone Wasp V1. Also very popular online. I liked that even better so I bought another. The Ozone build quality is excellent. The Wasps look and feel very rugged compared to the Duotones. They are nice and light as well but it's impossible to tell just seeing them online.
The sport of wing foiling is only just beginning to take off here in NH so my only source of information is the internet.
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That weird and heavy quick change base plate design probably didn't do the brand any favors. I've repaired three of them for folks, and in one case had to just weld the damned thing to the adapter. I wonder how many of those are laying on the bottom with a complete foil system. The first wings from Naish were horrible. I tried them and even bought a second-generation small one (2.5??) when it was the only tiny wing available and I was getting blown off the Columbia on a 3.5 swing. It was incredibly unstable and I sold it for half price after a day of owning it.
I know they've moved past all that, but early adopters remember that kind of stuff, and this forum is probably at least 50% early adopters. My perception, as I mentioned above, is that they are a step or two behind. People like me have no way to change that perception since they are not about to replace gear just to try something they don't have a lot of faith in.
When DW was frothing about the new S25 Naish wings I overcame that perception enough to buy the little wing mentioned above. I hated it, and then DW replaced his entire quiver. So yeah, despite watching Robbie and Mitchi ripping it up, there's not much reason to jump in.
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Like daswusup, I go back to early kite days, then switched to SUP around ' 13. I understand 'hero worship' marketing, but I find people labeling other's work for self promotion exploitative. There have been more than a few yellow SUPs that were fine shapes, but it was hard to find the name of the mystery shaper. These products are not tableware or work pants. Robbie, from 5,000mi distant seems a nice person but you sense he tests other's designs and then negociates whether they are worthy of his name... (big Euro-brands seem to have also done similar for many years - the difference is their lack of personalization)
On the other side, as Badger mentioned, is Go Foil. If there was a solid origin story to be found - they have it. But I strongly agree with Badger, if something is made of an exotic material like CF why present it as if it was made along side plastic picnic plates?
Down/not out...
Jim
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Like daswusup, I go back to early kite days, then switched to SUP around ' 13. I understand 'hero worship' marketing, but I find people labeling other's work for self promotion exploitative. There have been more than a few yellow SUPs that were fine shapes, but it was hard to find the name of the mystery shaper. These products are not tableware or work pants. Robbie, from 5,000mi distant seems a nice person but you sense he tests other's designs and then negociates whether they are worthy of his name... (big Euro-brands seem to have also done similar for many years - the difference is their lack of personalization)
On the other side, as Badger mentioned, is Go Foil. If there was a solid origin story to be found - they have it. But I strongly agree with Badger, if something is made of an exotic material like CF why present it as if it was made along side plastic picnic plates?
Down/not out...
Jim
Wow, I never thought of that--something I need to ask Alex about. I've sanded all the paint off Gofoil wings to screw around modifying them and you're right. There's perfectly nice carbon under that paint. I don't know why they paint them.
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Many might not admit it or care but a small part of why some people go with certain brands could be aesthetics. Coming into the sport knowing nothing, I didn't have much to go on other than what the stuff looked like on the internet. Even though the Go Foils had a great reputation, the blue foil wings looked like cheap plastic. The black and yellow colors of the Naish foils didn't turn me on either. Nor did I like the colors of the Naish wings.
The Axis stuff looks awesome and the website is really well done. The foil shapes made sense to me and I like the detailed info on everything. The Zone reviews had nothing but good things to say about the brand, so that's what I went with. No regrets so far.
So true, I like to tell myself that color isn't important as long as the value is there... But the reality I was very glad to get rid of some super loud neon green gear I had. Now even if they fixed their performance Issues, thier tacky colors certainly will make me a reluctant purchaser going forward.
Your other point on lack of details on manufacturers web site has been a deal killer for me. Funny how so many manufacturer still have next to no details on their web sites. At one point Go Foil was the hot wing to have, but had next to zero details and even new gear was non existent on thier site. As a internet shopper you almost felt as if they didn't care if you buy there gear or not. Not trying to bash GF but the contrast between them and the Axis site was just night and day. The Axis approach certainly keeps me going to there site and keeps thier products on my mind and when it's time for me to change gear I'll definitely be shopping thier products.
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...Your other point on lack of details on manufacturers web site has been a deal killer for me...
Agree... Having been a Gong customer, and enjoyed their products, the amount of information on their site is an example for others to copy. Given that trying stuff before buying is basically impossible most of the time, every bit of information is useful if you understand what it's telling you. I find it really frustrating now when foil stats don't quote volume for example...
I started on Naish kit, but once I discovered Gong I switched, mainly because I knew I would be able to buy, try and experiment with far more Gong kit, than nearly anything else, irrespective of how 'good' it was compared to my Naish stuff. Gong were churning out so much new stuff, that I felt they were responding quickly to the latest thinking. That faith has been rewarded. I've been very happy with everything I've bought from them, and only really moved away to try products they don't offer - boom wings, and high aspect foils.
This reflects how I now choose kit - based the functionality I'm looking for, by understanding the design offerings as far as possible, rather than being loyal to a brand.
I guess I'm saying that I didn't see the added value Naish offered over the alternative...
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Like others have pointed out regarding early products, I too started on a first gen Naish 4m Wingsurfer and 120 L Crossover SUP foil. After spending 3 mos trying to learn winging in lite wind and getting no where, it became apparent the board was too heavy and the wing wouldn't work in local conditions. I remember right after buying the wingsurfer, larger wings were announced for the market. So I Sold the board and got an Fone 120 L board, then sold the wing and got a 6m slingwing, and started flying It was a bad experience buying gear then having to off load it. I realize the initial stuff wasn't optimized for places outside of Maui or the gorge. But Naish made missteps by not thinking broadly enough about the market and having the necessary line of products available. So I moved on and never went back.
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Robby did say on his podcast interview with Daniel Graffe that he liked to keep things simple and that the industry is evolving too fast paced. So I'd say he's definitely got influence on how many products they pump out.
He also posted on instagram last week that he's tired and doesn't like doing all the social media.
Maybe they need a new a new young kid to drive the marketing. The only naish at my spot is the odd wing board, nothing else.
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Yesterday in my neck of the woods..
It’s summer here.. 8)
Hover 125.. 5m Matador and HA1400 foil.
https://vimeo.com/653907204
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As I recall, initially Naish said that 4M was the only size wing required for wingfoiling.
I agree that the pace of development is a bit breakneck, but that's a good thing for most of us.
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Naish initially wanted to make wings with a huge wind range so only one or two wings are needed.. But as people wanted more and more power the wind range becomes less and less.. The new V4 Wingsurfers will have so many sizes in half meter increments (eg 4.0, 4.5, 5.0, 5.5 etc) and they will be even more power than the current Matador.. Exciting time for Naish.
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My first session on my new 4m Matador LT at my new local beach..
https://vimeo.com/668524678
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Being new to windsport, I had no bias or loyalty to any brand coming into winging so I asked a lot of questions. When I asked about Naish, it was the one brand I consistently heard negative feedback. So I held off on buying anything Naish until I had more experience.
What I noticed over the last two years is that, every time they released anything new, it was completely different than the last model. To me this kind of "revolutionary" changes tells me that they are admitting the last model was junk and they had to start over. This does not engender trust that they know what they are doing or the direction they are headed.
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I would disagree with that.
I own a Naish S25 85l Ultra hover.It weighs 5.2kg and it does not have a single ding after two years of hard use.
Here they sell for about 1200€ new and i do not think there is any big manufacturer that can build this light and strong at that price.
Changes to S26 line have been small, mainly forward movement of foilbox and strap inserts and a smaller tail bevel.Which pretty much everybody has done as board&foil balance is better understood now.
Wish they had gone for a full straight tail though.
Certainly smaller changes in board and foil design than Armstrong, for example.
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My naish experience is as follows: when learning I had a 170l inflatable board. When the tracks started cracking and pieces of it fell out, I got a warranty replacement: 110 hover. It was great, but I thought the strap inserts were way too far back, like the center of the back foot range was behind the tracks. I had to put adhesive mounts forward of the pad up front to be able to have straps. As I improved I noticed the board was braking hard when touching the water. When I graduated to 88L army, I was astounded by how it skipped off the water, and despite fg, and takuma foils, my feet are right on the inserts although I don’t use them. I ended up making my hover a straight tail. (http://)
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Last week at Sandy Point (Oz) using my new 6m Matador LT in very light wind (5-10 knots)
https://vimeo.com/679627220
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Last week at Sandy Point (Oz) using my new 6m Matador LT in very light wind (5-10 knots)
https://vimeo.com/679627220
Awesome vid DJ. Beautiful spot.
I was just getting the hang of foiling before two months of winter set in. Now I'm psyched it's finally getting warm enough to get out again.
For me at 65 years old, the 125L Naish S26 has been the perfect board to learn on. Nice and stable. Gets up on plane quickly and lifts off effortlessly with the Axis 1060 BSC. I have a habit of getting pretty far from my launch point and at my age, having a board that I can easily slog or paddle back if the wind dies gives me added reassurance. I may progress to the 110L at some point but I doubt I'll go any smaller. For now, the 125L is tons of fun.
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Thanks.. I’m also 65 and I’m also loving my big 125L Naish Hover..
I struggle with kneeling starts (my knees say no) and like the extra stability of a bigger board.. For me it’s more about fun and ease and try to avoid the frustration and difficult part of learning to foil.. Naish have new shapes coming with their winging boards so I might be tempted to go slightly smaller next time.
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The Hover is a great wing board, volume towards the back, no swing weight, light, bullet proof and not as expensive as others. The S25 used is very cheap. The other day I was winging at full pelt and hit the bottom of a bar I wasn't aware off and the board just absorbed it.. I was amazed!! Just b4 I sold my 85L I had 3 X S25's... I hide this picture from my wife. She still thinks it's one board!
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My friend Rob has the new LE (limited edition) Naish Hover shown at the beginning of this vid from yesterday at Dromana beach.
https://vimeo.com/682209650
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Will be interesting to see what Austin K does for the Naish brand in the US for prone and DW foiling. Will the cool kids finally accept that every brand can make a halfway decent foil now?
I get that some foils are built better (all carbon from Lift and Armie or the machining of Axis) but I submit Takuma as an example of a wing who's hardware really isn't that special, it just works well.
Did the Thrust ruin Naish forever or will Austin show something new? AUS seems to love them as Hdip and I often mention. But in the US it's basically the same as my much hated Gong gear.
Is Austin Malo (who is seen as transcending his gear?) Or Mr. Bennets who took Uni far past Signature (who had a strong lead on Uni I'll remind.)
We shall see. Also, did the cool Lift and Armie kids give him crap in FL this week? lol But for real, have we seen clips of him yet? He did not place this year.
Yes, I'm starting something with Naish guys I know lol. But for real. Will Austin continue to progress on these foils? We will see. I kinda hope so actually but I'm just that way.
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Austin Kalama actually got first in the sup division of foilsurfracingleague. 6th in prone.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CbEfhkdOMLy/?utm_medium=copy_link
Gonna be hard to ever beat Mateo Ell in those races.
Yeah all brands have pros and cons. The Naish mid aspects look real interesting to me. It’s another axis lineup though where you don’t know where to start. Or which years gear you’re buying and will it be compatible with these other thirty options. So I think that hurts them a bit.
The funny thing is the thrust was a super good surf foil. It’s just once you learn to foil you go into this phase where pumping is the best thing in the world. So going back to a pure surf foil that is more difficult to pump feels like going backwards. Then once you carry a full carbon setup back and forth from your car it’s hard to go back to aluminum.
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I’m rapt about Austin joining Naish and it will be very interesting to see if he has any influence on the development of the Naish gear..
I struggled with the early Thrust foils but once the new Jet range evolved I’ve seen a continual improvement and I’m loving the current stuff..
The new Matador LT wings are awesome.. Here’s a resent vid from my local beach..
https://vimeo.com/683766007
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Review of the 2022 range
https://youtu.be/yONWBfJ3iyM
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Last week I got to try my new MA foil.. I really liked it.
https://vimeo.com/696860811
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Ok this thread proves something. 9'000+ views and only 36 replies, with a high percentage David John. Naish US social media team where are you?
I do see people on JD Followcam YouTube vids with top to bottom Naish rigs having fun, but I assume they know Naish employees or Robbie, living on Maui. I see just as many other brands.
But seriously, I'd hoped that this would elicit tons of responses from people saying how great their Naish stuff was and it's just the loud posters on here who ride Axis, Takuma, Armstrong, Lift, etc. That didn't really happen. Of course this isn't scientific but basically until the rippers at my local and on social media start piping up, like they recently did about Uni and Cabrinha's new foils, I'll assume that Naish is "pretty good" a but nothing I have to seek out.
Note that I'm not saying one thing bad about the brand or gear. I have no info on it. But there's a marketing lesson in here for anyone who's reading.
Ready to see Austin blow my mind.
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I personally dislike when a brand changes major components each year. Naish has changed fuselage's multiple times now and now has a new mast that isn't backwards compatible.
I sold all my AXIS gear when they switched to the black fuse. (Other reasons too like I was injured at the time)
You buy into the major brands thinking there will be an affordable upgrade path though. A guys asked me why I'm upset the brand is getting better. If I have to buy half the new gear, then I might as well just buy all the new gear at that point. It's fun to try different stuff. I haven't made it back around to Naish yet.
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I own three Naish boards. One of them is a decade old 14' carbon downwind board, the other two are Hovers. I'm happy with them all. I still find the old 14' a joy to paddle and the Hovers are light, strong, and well made. I didn't go for Naish foils or wings; other brands felt like better investments based on reviews and inspection.
I have found this site extremely useful and entertaining. I have purchased stuff on the classifieds. The videos shared are great! BUT. I do question how representative the opinions are of the market. I just noticed when logging on that there were 75 guests and 4 members. Seems a whole lot of interested viewers that don't voice their preferences compared to the few that do.
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Spindrift, exactly. We're not hearing from many people.
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Naish has been an entry level foil in previous years. Those people using them tend not to post reviews or froth as they tend to be learning. Now that Naish foils are much more refined, especially the new full carbon CFS range I think experienced foilers will move to the range and provide more feedback.
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My first low aspect setup was a Naish thrust. Almost went to the Jet when I was upgrading but the bonded mast issues I had heard about pushed me elsewhere. Now on axis gear - don’t see me coming back.
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The new mast and connection is definately better, i can say that with authority because the old system was garbage. If you break from a prior backwards compatible design there should be a significant improvement, i think they have achieved that here. Not sure why they have the aluminum mast range though. The low cost carbon is so close to the AL and so far from the high cost carbon there's alot of overlap on the bottom.
I flew the HA 1400 and 1240 wings on a few different custom setups (thats how bad the mast was). They were...ok... As far as designs they felt not amazing but in the ballpark of what i wanted from a high aspect. If you never rode another high aspect it for sure felt amazing but they were nothing special - even 3 years ago when fresh - now they're way behind the curve.
I think the MA wings are, again, ballpark wings - naish put a wing in the ballpark of what the industry is asking for. Does it do the mid aspect thing? Yes. But not better than anyone else's mid aspect.
I feel like the new stuff has moved construction to ok (wing fuse connection still isn't great, stab connection isn't industry standard 30mm bottom mount) and design to probably a step down from OK (if your not moving forward your moving backward).
They're not good, much less great, at anything so why would we talk about them?
Its a great setup for price concious people new to the sport. Any rider who knows their business is willing to spend an extra $500 to get something that has Good design or Good construciton - maybe both.