Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Solent Foiler on November 05, 2021, 04:06:00 AM
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Perhaps jumping the gun a little but has anyone ridden the smaller sisters to the 999. I'm curious, but wonder how awkward they are to use in real life (reading the stats, they look small [the volume in particular], even for a light weight like me) but also appreciate that this breed of foil isn't quite like what's come before.
Basically want to understand whether the performance warrants the effort (like deciding to wing a sinker) although I suspect a straight tail board would very much help.
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The 899 will probably become Axis's most popular wing in 2022.
I wouldn't go any smaller on a sinker for winging...
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Please link any info you have. I can’t find them on the axis site.
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Please link any info you have. I can’t find them on the axis site.
they are not yet released....
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Retitle the thread. I found some info.
Thefoilingcollective.com/product/axis-black-art-front-wing/
870mm 837cm^2
999mm 1038cm^2
1160mm 1385cm^2
All around 9+ AR
I just ordered a progressive 375 tail for my 999, hopefully it’s good for a smaller ART as well. The 837 is the size I’ve been after, should glide amazing but also turn well.
Axis please add me to the research team ;)
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Retitle the thread. I found some info.
Thefoilingcollective.com/product/axis-black-art-front-wing/
870mm 837cm^2
999mm 1038cm^2
1160mm 1385cm^2
All around 9+ AR
I just ordered a progressive 375 tail for my 999, hopefully it’s good for a smaller ART as well. The 837 is the size I’ve been after, should glide amazing but also turn well.
Axis please add me to the research team ;)
Nice research Johnny. I'm actually intrigued with the 1160. I parted ways with my trusty 1150 a few months ago and have missed it now that we are into crap ass november light wind. I have been flailing a bit on the 999 in 10-12mph wind. I can confirm that the 375 progressive does pair nicely with the 999. Its way looser on the roll than my 380. Takes some getting used to. I have it all on the crazyshort which I may swap out for the ultrashort next time. I am also dealing with booties in straps which always bothers me. I have to disagree with Asylum saying that the 899 will be most popular. There are not that many wingers out there riding 800cm wings on a regular basis. I Most venues are lighter wind and more suited to liftier front wings.
I think I will spend a lot of days on the 1160. Imagine the glide of a large ART wing.
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Think that's a typo - the 899 and 799 are in the '22 catalogue, as is the 1160.
https://www.2xs.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Axis_22_brochure-1.pdf (https://www.2xs.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Axis_22_brochure-1.pdf)
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Nice. I can’t edit my post. Axis catalogue is definitely a better source.
1160 is 1387cm^2 9.97AR
999 is 1038 cm^2 9.9AR
899 is 850cm^2 actual 9.76AR
799 is 730cm^2 actual 9.05
I’m stoked on the small one to complement my 999, but I already have a 640cm high aspect foil. I think I need to polish and re anodize my fuselage which is all scratched up and oxidized to get the most out of these small fast guys. (Please make a carbon fuse)
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Apparently things have changed slightly since that catalog went out. That was from back in July. I don't know exactly what. But don't take that catalog as gospel.
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Hmm I guess we'll have to wait and see unless someone can tell us.
I see at the end of the catalog p.36 the screw guide only has an 870 as the smallest ART. :o
I don’t envy axis having to figure out which wings to release and keeping it simple. Tons of people want smaller higher aspect wings (me) yet I think the 999 is too small for many wingers now, I’ve seen two for sale in the Bay Area where people said they were too small.
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Slight clarification here. There is a 799. I've heard of it, just not seen it personally. I just meant the CM2 numbers may be slightly different.
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Lots of testing of the various wings goes on before final sign off, and actual release of them...even the ones that might already be in a catalog, or possibly even seen on a beach somewhere. Or at least so I'm told anyway. 8):D
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I'm just glad Axis publish their volume numbers as well. It's volume that I probably use most to assess how much lifting grunt a foil has rather than area, which seems to be a less reliable size metric now that AR can vary so much between foils.
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That catalog was an early release to distributors only from July. The actual sizes will be different.
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As "flkiter" mentioned, the early catalog link posted here and elsewhere, "was an early release to distributors only from July", and not a final product brochure. The actual sizes and products may (or will be) slightly different upon their official release in the future.
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They have just become available here.
Any information or comparison between the 899 and 999?
Any insights Dwight?
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I got to try them both.
The 899 turns much better than the 999 and still glides well but nothing like the out of the world glide of the 999.
The 899 will be THE wing, many people will be selling their 880 (I have already ;D).
799 has so little surface but don't let that spook you. It has a lot of initial lift but also a quick stall speed so it needs to be powered.
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They have just become available here.
Any information or comparison between the 899 and 999?
Any insights Dwight?
Where is "here"? It's not on the website for ordering, did you contact them directly?
A few videos of people ripping on the Armie 725, I hope the 799 turns as well!
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Where is "here"? It's not on the website for ordering, did you contact them directly?
A few videos of people ripping on the Armie 725, I hope the 799 turns as well!
Australia
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https://axisfoils.com/collections/axis-research-team
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Nice marketing ploy-limited edition buy now!
maybe try-global production bottleneck, can't produce enough! Lol. Limited edition is more fun though.
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so I took the plunge and bought the 899. I have the 420 stab and the 375P.
Two goes on a pocket board with kite . . . have the mast in furtherest rear position and furtherest front footstraps and still a bit more front foot pressure than I would like. I suppose I might have to try the shim. Rides and does everything well, gets up early and can keep flying at slow speeds.
One go today in less wind than ideal. 88kg on a 5' 90L not boxy board with 4.8 wing. Wind was gusty. My friend (88kg on 5'4" 95L boxy board) could get up on the 999 relatively easily with his 5m wing.
I got up on the foil when a few solid gusts hit and it was such a smooth, fast and drag free feeling when up on the foil. Amazing glide for its size and quite a low stall speed. Did not really feel any front foot pressure and yet it was stable with foot changes. Fast gybes were great and not a problem tacking. Great job done by Adrian and the Research Team :)
I do want to get that same drag free feeling happening when using the kite. Any suggestions?
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I do want to get that same drag free feeling happening when using the kite. Any suggestions?
If using the aluminum mast, drill out the tapped hole. Make it a through hole in the base plate. That will get you farther back in the tracks.
or
Reverse shim the stab
or
shorter fuse
or
smaller stab
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If using the aluminum mast, drill out the tapped hole. Make it a through hole in the base plate. That will get you farther back in the tracks.
or
Reverse shim the stab
or
shorter fuse
or
smaller stab
Thanks Dwight . . .
Am using 96cm V1 carbon mast with ultra short fuse. Changing from 420 to 375 seemed to help.
Reverse shim the stab may be the easiest option left at this point ... and an excuse to grab a 350P at some stage :)
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Excited but concerned on recently ordering an 899 with UltraShort and Progressive 400. I'm only about 1-2" forward from the back of the box on my Dwight board with F-one Phantom 940. Hoping I don't run out of box with this new combo, since I expect going higher aspect with the wing trailing edge already quite a distance away from the mast centerline. Any experience or reference to help ease my mind? I'm about 75 kg.
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Excited but concerned on recently ordering an 899 with UltraShort and Progressive 400. I'm only about 1-2" forward from the back of the box on my Dwight board with F-one Phantom 940. Hoping I don't run out of box with this new combo, since I expect going higher aspect with the wing trailing edge already quite a distance away from the mast centerline. Any experience or reference to help ease my mind? I'm about 75 kg.
If you're using the aluminum base plate you can drill out the threaded holes and use pan head screws to get another inch of rearward travel.
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I don't know about the smaller wings but the 999 needs about a half-inch further back for me. And if I don't move it back it's just a little more front leg weight.
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Thanks so much to ALL the contributors to this thread! After reading by several accounts that the HPS 880 is just as fast and more carvy than the ART999 I was able to hold off investing money that I didnt have and have really enjoyed the HELL out of my 880 for the past 2 months!
But then along comes the 899...faster and looser and carvier...and some have said theyve sold their 880s and switched over 100 percent to the 899...and once again Im in a quandry.
our winds rarely get above 18 knots...and some of the best days in clean waves are 14knots and below. Typically ill be on a 6mt MOJO and my HPS 1050 milking the little swell for all its worth. But NOT just looking to glide on downwinders...more interested in trying to pump and turn and do little carves on the bumps...from what ive read, the 999 isnt so great at TURNING on a wingtip.
So im wondering what will the 899 really give me over the 880? Perhaps I should be swapping my 1050 for a 999 and just enjoy the increased speed and glide and sacrifice a bit of carvyness? Would anyone argue that the 1050 HPS is actually more SURFY than the 999?
Basically, feeling the need to throw some more money away and cant decide if I should "upgrade" my 1050 or my 880. BTWAY...also im still riding only a SHORT fuse and 420 stab.....would anyone care to argue that buying an ULTRAshort fuse and a 375 Progressive might be even MORE of a quiver enhancer than a new ART foil? Thanx again and good winds!
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In my opinion. Funny a new tail first. It’s the cheapest option and has the biggest difference. My brother went from his 980 and 400 tail. To the 980 with a 350 progressive and it was a night and day difference. He looks so much better prone foiling in the
People are starting to trend back towards longer fuses now too. We’ll see where they end up with length.
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Just got the 899 last night after riding the 999 since it came out and loving it. No wind on the forecast, though :(
I have the "short" fuse and the 375p tailwing.
I was told by axis most folks are on ultrashort or crazyshort to get these wings to turn well in the surf. So that's on my ever growing list.
If anyone wants to save me 1/2 a session they can tell me how far to move my mast forward switching from the 999 to the 899. I'm assuming it would need to move forward, maybe 1cm?? How about sizing down fuses, do you move the mast around or does the fuse size adjust for that?
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from what ive read, the 999 isnt so great at TURNING on a wingtip.
I would strongly challenge that assessment. With the right tail and the right tail tuning mine turns great. I love surfing it. I'm using the 350P with .5deg shim of increased tail downforce.
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If anyone wants to save me 1/2 a session they can tell me how far to move my mast forward switching from the 999 to the 899.
Why would you think it needs moving if the fuse is the same?
I don’t move mine when fuse is the same.
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First time out on the 799 today, 25 knots+, on my 5'3 34 litre sinker. Having spent a bit of time on the 899 I was worried that the 799 might be a bit of a novelty, just being a bit too high performance, too awkward to use, to be a genuine option for regular use, but none of it... It was sensational!
For a lightweight like me, it offers control, glide and manoeuvrability - all good things when the wind is howling. Stall speed was also a surprise - wasn't an issue, even through the heelside tacks. For sure it's higher speed than its bigger sisters, but because I could turn it more quickly and in more control, I was getting through the wind more quickly, so even if I did drop off foil, it was more of a touch and go, rather a drop and stop. Getting it up was also surprisingly straight forward, especially with that long narrow board shape.
Downwinding was yet another surprise. This was not on open ocean, so the bumps were small for the wind, having a short fetch. I expected the glide to be too short and pumping to be too limited, and yes the outright glide was less than the bigger ARTs, but the acceleration, speed and low drag helped offset that. I was able to pump between bumps but needed the wing to get through flat sections. I'm no expert, so a better technique would have been able to get more out of it, I'm sure.
The thing I am most stoked on is the control though. It just felt so comfortable. Will be interesting to see how it works in less wind, but when it's windy, this is an amazing addition to the quiver.
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So guys I ride the 890/880/810. I was thinking about getting an 830 but was wondering about the 799? I'm guessing the 899 is too close to my 880?
Mike
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from what ive read, the 999 isnt so great at TURNING on a wingtip.
I would strongly challenge that assessment. With the right tail and the right tail tuning mine turns great. I love surfing it. I'm using the 350P with .5deg shim of increased tail downforce.
I have also been surprised at how well the 999 turns. It's not as swoopy as my 860, but I can turn it tightly both winging and foiling. I assume the washout gets the credit for that, and maybe the narrow profile helps. Whatever it is, it turns better than the 980 for me. And the 980 is fairly good at turning.
I'm still bugged by how much trouble I have tacking and jibing, but I have more success on the 999 than on any other wing. I'm blaming geezer balance and a stubborn insistence in my reptile brain for switching feet in the middle of either a tack or jibe. The 999 lets me coast long enough to get everything done and stays locked into a turn while I'm fiddling around with my feet.
Doing S-turns on the face of a wave with the wing flagged out, the 999 feels almost as swoopy as the 860.
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Just tried the 799 with the 325P tail and 3m Slick.
Oh... my... word...
Insanely quick in every direction and insanely fun. Needs a lot of attention but rewards it by allowing you to carve as hard as you dare! It pumps too! It's so low drag that the glide is also 'insane' for it's size. Going to enjoy riding this setup!
Looking forward to trying it with the 899 and maybe the 999 too?
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Solent, just waiting on those Gong wings to hit the classifieds. Haha.
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I accidentally tried the 999 with a 340 tail. Sheesh, that was fun. So fast, and turned on a dime. Not quite as fast as the 400/60 but fast enough to give a pucker factor when I started a turn, but I came out of every turn grinning.
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Old thread but I am curious what the 799 and 899 translate closest to? Is the 899 most equivalent to the BSC 810/HPS 830 and 799 equivalent to the BSC 740/HPS 700? Thanks
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BSC has WAY more lift at slow speeds. ART has more glide and a higher top end maybe.
Not really that comparable.
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Ok, likely not enough detail, I feel like the 999 is somewhat comparable to HPS 980. I’ve ridden the BSC 810 winging in waves for the last year and it has a lot of lift. I’ve feel the 810 lift is mitigated with a smaller tail, it is easier to control on bigger waves with higher speeds. I have also ridden the BSC 740, but that is usually bigger waves and higher wind. I am going to switch to the 799 or 899, trying to figure out what would be comparable crossover for winging waves similar to the 810, knowing the the lift is different. It may be they are not comparable, although I will end up settling on one of the other for what I use daily. I would like to gain insight without buying both the 799 and 899. I will also see if I can borrow them.
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BSC is more comparable to the PNG series. ART is more comparable to the HPS series. It seems like the HPS series might be the in between step you're looking for. Hard to say since everyone's preference is different. There are lots of AXIS demo's around though. If you're in Southern CA I can put you in touch with at least 2 of them.
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@eeck62 - windsurf foiler here and I have both the 880 and 899. I use my 880 in all kinds of conditions but mostly in high winds and hip high swell. I feel these two foils can be used in similar conditions, however they are different because the 899 takes more effort to start and stalls easier. The 880 doesn’t quite have that magical glide that the 899 delivers but the 880 is no slouch when it comes to chasing bumps and if the winds or water gets changeable/unstable the 880 is definitely less temperamental. For that reason, the 880 is my go to.
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Thank you Hdip and Deep Sea for your replies. I took the 899 out last night.
I am 180 lbs, 71 liter board, 899 / 350 progressive tail. It was 14 mph and I had my somewhat older 5.2 m Ensis, which seems to not give as much forward speed.
It was harder to get up on foil. I went 200-300 feet to get out of the lighter wind closer to shore and got up. Once up, the 899 is great. It was fast and responsive with good glide. I was happy with the turning, speed and glide in the waves. It rolled from turn to turn much easier than the 999, as expected. I didn’t feel like you lose much from the 999 and the turning is better. It also made me think how the 799 would be doable. It does have a lot of lift with speed. Nothing that new here, just new to me.
I did keep the mast in the same position as I normally use for my 810 in lighter wind. I thought leaving the ART wing forward to get more lift would help on liftoff, but it doesn't really seem to help getting off the water. I feel getting off the water with ART foils seems to be mainly about getting to the speed where the foil starts lifting. Once I was up, I was wishing I had the mast back a little as it had quite a bit of front foot pressure.
I also found going into the waves was harder to get liftoff versus going with the waves. The little extra push from the waves made it much easier.
Those are my first ride thoughts, overall good experience.
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Had a couple sessions on the 899 now and will answer the question I had about what the 899 might be comparable to?
I have been riding the BSC 810 for the last year. The 899 feels slightly bigger than the 810. As mentioned it’s hard to compare directly, but I feel on the days I would take the 810 in the waves I would also use the 899. It has way less drag and less lift on takeoff, but a lot of lift once going. The speed and glide are addicting. I do want to try the 799 now. I also feel like my 5.2m is easier to handle. When a gust hits, the foil easily speeds up. I felt the gust a lot more on the 810 as it has more drag.
I am excited to get it out in the waves more.