Standup Zone Forum

The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Beasho on November 04, 2021, 06:46:55 AM

Title: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: Beasho on November 04, 2021, 06:46:55 AM
I have several sessions on the ART 999 but as Jeff Clark says “You will know immediately.”

I have been a GoFoil guy since day #1.  Started in Spring 2017.  The only foils available were GoFoil Kai, Naish and some Kitefoils that didn’t work in the waves. 

I bought the Axis 999, rather the whole kit, to serve as a Wing-Ding foil only.  I can report that this is a fantastic BIG WAVE Foil

I have had the foil out in 5 to 7 foot waves on my 6 foot SUP, then recently out in 8 ft @ 14 seconds on my 7’ 4” Big-Wave SUP foil board.  Legit 10 to 12 foot faces on the inside of Mavericks.
 
The foil catches waves almost as well as my GL210, which I can pump up on a 3 foot wave, but is fast and STAYS Down as well as my GoFoil GL130.  It catches small waves better than the NL190 and is Faster.
 
BUT – The pumping is clearly better than any of them.  This foil makes big wave SUP’ing feel similar to Prone Foiling – Catch the Chip and go hunt for waves.  I only had 45 minutes before sunset.  I got this crumbling beast that turned into a clean 12 footer and then flew through blackhand reef, into the open ocean to the pinnacles.  Dodging rocks along the way.  688 yards! in my backyard.   
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: Beasho on November 04, 2021, 06:49:20 AM
I have not had this foil out in clean conditions.  I went out in South winds, 8-10 mph, which typically TRASHES the inner lagoon.  It was a weekend and so bad that NO ONE was out other than me.  5 to 7 feet. 

I typically refer to these as "skills sessions."  Just go out, get a workout and improve the skills being able to stand and maybe catch a wave or 2.  I was on my 6 ft X 28" Jeff Clark board. 

Then I started to carve these lines.  If you are used to looking at tracks THESE are more indicative of what a Clean 4 ft @ 15 second South Swell would produce.  Nice Turns and GREAT Carry all the way to the beach.  BUT this was in TOTAL CRAP.  Buoys 7 ft @ 12 seconds. 

I was up and able to point higher down the line without worrying about losing the wave because of weak energy or falling off the back of the wave.  Then I was able to turn back deeper (to the North) on the inside because I had the confidence I could then cutback and speed down the line.

Thank You DW for pushing me over the edge to buy this foil.  IT IS ~ 15% better than other foils BUT THAT CAN BE EVERYTHING.  And I feel as excited about getting on this foil as when foiling was new.  All Over Again.
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: Beasho on November 04, 2021, 07:08:27 AM
I started this new thread so this message would not get lost in the 10K's of other views on the ART 999 thread.

I have realized my USE Case may be extremely limited.  No one comes out to Mavericks and tries to foil under their own power.  I have been to the North Shore of Oahu, Fiji, Eastern Connecticut . .  and have always dreamed about the getting the CHIP into a 20+ foot wave and then flying free.  BUT the combination of wave speed, the drop, board speed and the horrific nature of failure limits the appetite.

The GoFoil Kai foil was good on 8 - 12 foot waves but wouldn't carry.  The IWA would carry once flying but had a LOT of lift.  The GL210 would get up early and was FASTER than the IWA and would keep up with long period swell (better).  The NL 190 would STAY Down on takeoff and was faster still.  Then the GL140 was fast and would Carry.  Finally the NL130 was ripping fast but required a real kick to get going.

The ART999 gets up early which can be key to getting safely to the shoulder.  The ART999 stays DOWN.  The NL190 was the first foil I flew that didn't PUNCH on takeoff on a big wave.  You could consciously take your time and think "Ok let's fly now."  The ART999 takes 2 conscious thoughts to make it fly.  I have only had one week on this foil but I am thinking I can take off much steeper, and deeper than normal.  Treat the takeoff like a normal SUP takeoff.  Then fly when ready to fly. 

PS: I am using a TUTTLE box.  I use footstraps on all my boards.  The Axis999 setup was 100% consistent with my GoFoil lift profiles.  NO need to adjust any footstrap positions. No shimming, no whining.  It just worked right out of the box. 

PSS: More to come from cleaner, smaller conditions.  People say the high aspect foils don't turn . . . . give it time.  We'll figure it out. 
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 04, 2021, 07:13:19 AM
Now if I could talk you into getting the Progressive 375 tail, your head will explode.  ;D
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: 805StandUp on November 04, 2021, 05:07:22 PM
Thanks for posting your experiences, Beasho and DW!  I have been thinking about getting an ART (either 999 or 888 when it comes out) along with Progressive 375 tail for SUP Foil.  Pretty much use the NL160 with 13.5" KD Maui tail exclusively but wish I had something with better pump. Also may pick up a GT or RS at some point.
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: burchas on November 04, 2021, 05:11:59 PM
Thanks for posting your experiences, Beasho and DW!  I have been thinking about getting an ART (either 999 or 888 when it comes out) along with Progressive 375 tail for SUP Foil.  Pretty much use the NL160 with 13.5" KD Maui tail exclusively but wish I had something with better pump. Also may pick up a GT or RS at some point.

It would be great to read a review from someone who owns both ART999 and RS1000
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: jondrums on November 05, 2021, 11:46:02 PM
Beasho - the 999 can turn just fine - you just need the right tail at the right shim angle.  I'm tuning in the progressive 350 right now and it goes super well with a 1deg shim under the back screw.  It turned like a dog without the shim, but with it is totally money. 
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: juandesooka on November 06, 2021, 09:00:41 PM
Thanks for posting your experiences, Beasho and DW!  I have been thinking about getting an ART (either 999 or 888 when it comes out) along with Progressive 375 tail for SUP Foil.  Pretty much use the NL160 with 13.5" KD Maui tail exclusively but wish I had something with better pump. Also may pick up a GT or RS at some point.

Me too! NL 160 rider with 13.5" KD, and also wanting more pump.  I am only a half dozen sessions in with KD, just started using shims, 0.5, and first today with 1....was a bit of a wow.  If you haven't tried yet, give it a go.

And not be a hijacker, back to OP....I sure would like to try the 999, though to be honest, a little scared about what happens if it's as good as you all say.  I like being married, prefer to stay that way ;-)
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: 805StandUp on November 08, 2021, 08:56:41 AM

Me too! NL 160 rider with 13.5" KD, and also wanting more pump.  I am only a half dozen sessions in with KD, just started using shims, 0.5, and first today with 1....was a bit of a wow.  If you haven't tried yet, give it a go.

And not be a hijacker, back to OP....I sure would like to try the 999, though to be honest, a little scared about what happens if it's as good as you all say.  I like being married, prefer to stay that way ;-)

It's a great combination!  Interestingly, we had some big waves last week and I decided to try to throw the 13.5 on the long pedestal thinking there was going to be a lot of energy.   Paddled into 4 waves and had no lift!  I guess the longer pedestal required me to shim the tail differently or use a bigger tail.  Also the waves didn't have the energy we thought it would.  Are you powering or depowering your tail with the shim?  KDMaui told me that most people like a 1-1.5 shim under the rear to depower the tail with the short pedestal.  When I compared it, with the 1.5 it has almost the same angle as the 14.5 GF tail.
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: Beasho on November 14, 2021, 10:36:19 PM
A few more sessions on the ART 999.

Here is a the Headcam on a 10 - 12 foot takeoff. 

This FOIL stays DOWN.  However I have been using 1 degree of shim.  A touch more lift.  Otherwise it stays down too much and sags vs. pumps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I833faO-3qU
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: Beasho on November 14, 2021, 10:51:15 PM
Then there was this wave.

I was out in the morning.  I thought I might have brought out TOO big a board but it was feathering on the outside.

I credit Sam P'ae with this move:  Dropping down the face and it gets too ugly then run off the back of the wave and watch the face until things settle down then jump back over the spine of the wave into the trough again.  This started out as a mellow 12 ft wave but turned into a NASTY 15 foot pit.   

Buoys were 6 ft @ 12 seconds but delivering the goods on the inside of Mavericks. 

Once again the ART 999 delivers the speed, carry and stability to handle big waves.  I have had this out in 4 to 6 foot faces, 5 to 7 feet, 8 to 10, 10 to 12 and then these faces.  The foil lets you get up and then go hunting. 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXN9ANfE7MA
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 15, 2021, 03:57:40 AM
However I have been using 1 degree of shim.  A touch more lift.  Otherwise it stays down too much and sags vs. pumps.


I also used the shim with the 420. (I think that is the tail you got).

The Progressives don’t need the shim.

Awesome it works at Mavericks.
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: SUPeter on November 15, 2021, 07:26:00 AM
Yeah!  So glad to hear this!  You'll flip when you go with the Progressive tails.  I've been using the 400P and the performance is so much better.  The speed and glide of the whole system is beyond belief. 
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: Beasho on November 15, 2021, 09:34:17 AM
Yeah!  So glad to hear this!  You'll flip when you go with the Progressive tails.  I've been using the 400P and the performance is so much better.  The speed and glide of the whole system is beyond belief.

Wow!  It gets better!  400P?  375P?  So many options. 
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: 805StandUp on November 15, 2021, 02:17:39 PM

Wow!  It gets better!  400P?  375P?  So many options.

FWIW, in the Axis FB Group, Adrian Roper said 375P is best with 999.
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: jondrums on November 15, 2021, 02:45:05 PM
I'm running the 350 progressive with 1deg of shim and it works great.  Without the shim is a touch more efficient, but it doesn't turn very well nor come up without a bunch of back foot pressure.   It comes alive and rides great with 1deg of shim.  After a couple months getting the 999 dialed, I went back to the takuma 1250 for a session which I used to think was the best foil ever made and it just feels draggy now.
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: 805StandUp on November 15, 2021, 04:12:59 PM
I'm running the 350 progressive with 1deg of shim and it works great.  Without the shim is a touch more efficient, but it doesn't turn very well nor come up without a bunch of back foot pressure.   It comes alive and rides great with 1deg of shim.  After a couple months getting the 999 dialed, I went back to the takuma 1250 for a session which I used to think was the best foil ever made and it just feels draggy now.

How does the 350P compare with the 13.5 KD tail, Jon?  I love my 13.5 with my NL160.  Would you say that the 999 has replaced the takuma for surf for you then?
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: Beasho on November 16, 2021, 06:46:33 PM
Yeah!  So glad to hear this!  You'll flip when you go with the Progressive tails.  I've been using the 400P and the performance is so much better.  The speed and glide of the whole system is beyond belief.

Wow!  It gets better!  400P?  375P?  So many options.

Pushed the 'Buy' button yesterday and the tail wing showed up this afternoon.  1 Day shipping.  Unreal.  Better than Amazon.
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: PonoBill on November 17, 2021, 07:46:37 PM
Everything I own feels draggy after the 999. This morning I was out with a GoFoil Maliko 200 with the Maliko tail to try out a big loaner board. I jumped off the board to see if something was wrapped around the wing. Nope.
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: jondrums on November 17, 2021, 10:16:30 PM
I would say the 350 progressive is very similar to the KDMaui 13.5"
they didn't copy it exact or anything like that, but if you put them on top of each other the 350 is only 1/4" more span and about the same chord.  They look about the same thickness too.

But importantly, they ride very similar to the point where I probably couldn't tell the difference. 

getting the shim right is so important though - rides so different at different angles

And yes, I'm only riding the 999 in surf right now.  I will probably keep using the 980 this winter whenever the real swell rolls through
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: Beasho on November 18, 2021, 12:41:02 PM
I would say the 350 progressive is very similar to the KDMaui 13.5" . . .
And yes, I'm only riding the 999 in surf right now.  I will probably keep using the 980 this winter whenever the real swell rolls through

Jon - This is interesting feedback considering you were originally hesitant about the 999 in the surf.  I have had ~ 14 sessions now on the ART 999.  This morning in 4 to 5 foot faces with 375 Progressive Tail, 6 foot board.  NO Shim. 

It turns well but I had to stay on top of it.  These tracks were 'turnier' than I thought they would be.  The 375P didn't pump quite as well as the 420 tail BUT I will try the  1 degree of shim next.  In smaller waves you can NOT afford to go straight with the wave.  The foil is fast so it requires constantly turning and going UP and DOWN the line.  This means NO going straight and therefore would be BAD for beginners because it would never fly well travelling with whitewater. 

PS: This foil has worked in 10 to 12 foot++ faces so I am wondering what the benefit would be of other foils 'when it gets good.'
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: jondrums on November 18, 2021, 02:55:17 PM
Beasho - my initial hesitation has gone away now that I have the right tail setup - it surfs pretty well.  But to be honest, I'm using it all the time just because pumping is just so so fun and this is by far the best pumping wing I've ever tried.    Pumping back out and cranking a 180 turn on the face of the next wave is just so fun.

The turning feel of the 980/1210 is still unmatched.  Additionally, the 999 is pretty flexible and it shows.  In bigger waves I still really like the feel of a stiffer wing, and also the pitch stability of the Kujira is still pretty magical.  On a big steep drop the 999 is tricky to manage pitch comparatively. 
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: 805StandUp on November 23, 2021, 07:12:52 AM
Thanks for the report, Jon!  Sounds like what I am looking for.  Perhaps the Kujira 1095 will be the perfect combination of the pump of the 999 and the surfiness of the 1210 for you.  That said, I spoke to Tucker and MacKite a couple weeks back and he interestingly recommended the GT1250 over the RS so I had one arrive only to find no waves.  Will see what I think but it is EXACTLY the same profile of the NL160 except steps in lieu of winglets so will be interesting to see if it really is gamechanging.  I am also looking forward to ride reports on the RS which should arrive in shops next month. 
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: jondrums on November 23, 2021, 09:07:38 AM
I think with a little more iteration we will see these super high aspect super thin wings turn as good as today's surf wings.  Perhaps the Takuma or RS will be even better than the 999, we'll see.

An interesting note on the tail shim - I tried 1.5deg and 1deg both turn and pump really great.  0deg was not to my liking, it felt like it didn't want to roll side to side - although I didn't think to move it up in the boxes.   I want to get some time on .5deg because I do think the 1 and 1.5deg is a bit pitchy. 

Beasho post up your ride report on 0deg vs. 1deg for those of us geeks who make or break on half a degree
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: juandesooka on November 24, 2021, 10:21:00 AM
I spoke to Tucker and MacKite a couple weeks back and he interestingly recommended the GT1250 over the RS so I had one arrive only to find no waves.  Will see what I think but it is EXACTLY the same profile of the NL160 except steps in lieu of winglets so will be interesting to see if it really is gamechanging.  I am also looking forward to ride reports on the RS which should arrive in shops next month.

Initial reports are gamechanging! But they always tend to be. Until I actually see it, I remain cautiously optimistic or maybe pessimistically hopeful.  At risk of being the old grump, I've seen the hype train go by a few too many times now,  over-promising and under-delivering.  Reminds me of that line in the movie The Color of Money, about the wealthy pool player getting hustled: I don't mind losing the money, but I am not willing to just give it away.   ::)    So....let's hear those reports!  :)
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: burchas on November 25, 2021, 12:58:05 PM
That said, I spoke to Tucker and MacKite a couple weeks back and he interestingly recommended the GT1250 over the RS so I had one arrive only to find no waves...  I am also looking forward to ride reports on the RS which should arrive in shops next month.

That's the same thing I got from Tucker as to the foil one would always have in the car, GT1250 and Ocean Rodeo A series 5M (he's 195LB). He didn't bring-up the game changing spiel into the mix. His feeling that this front wing has a really good pitch control and very smooth responsive turns without loosing too much glide over the RS.

When pushed for a comparison between the RS and the ART999 he felt the comparable Slingshot offering was the favorite. That's one man's opinion but when thinking about my next purchase I have to take under account skill level and riding conditions. So I am also looking forward to ride reports on the RS.
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: FoilMad on November 25, 2021, 06:47:56 PM
Hi Burchas,
In what specific riding circumstances do you wish to compare the RS foils and the ART999. In free winging downwind the ART has its place but i am not sure where else someone would choose the ART999 over even the Axis HPS series. The ART999 is 1m wide and flexes more than most wings. A beginner to intermediate downwinding wing. It may be of use in very small prone or sup surf if you goal is less turning performance and more pump then great choice.


 
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: burchas on November 25, 2021, 08:02:36 PM
Hi Burchas,
In what specific riding circumstances do you wish to compare the RS foils and the ART999. In free winging downwind the ART has its place but i am not sure where else someone would choose the ART999 over even the Axis HPS series. The ART999 is 1m wide and flexes more than most wings. A beginner to intermediate downwinding wing. It may be of use in very small prone or sup surf if you goal is less turning performance and more pump then great choice.

I would think Downwind and pumping is on most hit list for direct comparison between the ART and the RS. For my list I would like to know how well behaved is the RS when overpowered. Seems like one of the main features of this new design is the pitch control which suggests well behaved even when pushed hard. The ART seems to scare many when pushed.
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: FoilMad on November 26, 2021, 02:25:57 PM

I would think Downwind and pumping is on most hit list for direct comparison between the ART and the RS. For my list I would like to know how well behaved is the RS when overpowered. Seems like one of the main features of this new design is the pitch control which suggests well behaved even when pushed hard. The ART seems to scare many when pushed.

The ART is super high aspect but with a fuller profile i think to try and return some of those lower stall speed attributes and rideability of the more typical high aspects which it seems to have accomplished to some extent. It was designed for glide at much lower speed and combined with its flex it wont like rough water and higher speeds. This is based on first hand friends experience. I don't imagine people will be downwind racing on this wing but will be a good introductory foil for the light to medium weight downwinders .

I only weigh 65kgs so i didn't think i could push the p180 fast but this is not the case. It has incredible range so i expect its latest incarnation the RS1300 being the same dimensions but thinner will have similar bottom end but much faster. Friends reports are it turns better again than the P180 and the PNL185 and also pumps better. It was designed for downwind racing and will be at least very competitive.

I have prone surfed the RS1000 twice and it was very impressive. It was immediately home for me with great speed and incredible turning. For my weight i think it pumped as well as the much bigger nl160 but faster. I have ordered the wing and it will replace both the NL130 and NL160 winging in waves for me and will be my daily prone foil. To me the steps have made the foil very ridable for its chord and thickness, so fast but so well behaved from the very first wave. It has the same wingspan as the gl140 but turned so much better for me as i could push hard in turns. Impressed enough to order one immediately and bummed i am not riding it everyday already.

I will order the RS1150 for free wing and very small surf days.

Final comment is that increasing wingspan for me makes foils incredibly sensitive to turn and pump with chop and wash making the ride very technical. Practice diminishes the challenge to some extent obviously. 
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: Beasho on November 26, 2021, 08:37:07 PM
The ART is super high aspect but with a fuller profile i think to try and return some of those lower stall speed attributes and rideability of the more typical high aspects which it seems to have accomplished to some extent. It was designed for glide at much lower speed and combined with its flex it wont like rough water and higher speeds. This is based on first hand friends experience. I don't imagine people will be downwind racing on this wing but will be a good introductory foil for the light to medium weight downwinders .

I can directly compare the NL130 to the ART 999 and say that the 999 is as fast but better glide.  This comes from foil SUPing some of the bigger waves in the world.  I would only grab for my NL130 if the waves were a guaranteed 12 feet.  Speeds ranging from 18 to 25 mph.  Mostly at Mavericks but also at Phantoms on the north shore of Oahu.  The ART999 has less pop or front foot kick with the 420 tail no shim than any NL GoFoil wing.  I weigh 85 Kg. 

Maybe some downwind guys are hitting 20 to 25 mph.  But please use exact numbers when referring to speeds.  The NL130 is a rock in big waves but the 999 has a wider flight profile.  I have found the 999 starts to stall for me around 12 mph.  Rather it sags and is a lot of work to recover.  Easy cruising speed is 15 mph.  With the right tail and board I have zero front foot pressure at 20 mph +
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: FoilMad on November 26, 2021, 11:37:14 PM


I can directly compare the NL130 to the ART 999 and say that the 999 is as fast but better glide.  This comes from foil SUPing some of the bigger waves in the world.  I would only grab for my NL130 if the waves were a guaranteed 12 feet.  Speeds ranging from 18 to 25 mph.  Mostly at Mavericks but also at Phantoms on the north shore of Oahu.  The ART999 has less pop or front foot kick with the 420 tail no shim than any NL GoFoil wing.  I weigh 85 Kg. 

Maybe some downwind guys are hitting 20 to 25 mph.  But please use exact numbers when referring to speeds.  The NL130 is a rock in big waves but the 999 has a wider flight profile.  I have found the 999 starts to stall for me around 12 mph.  Rather it sags and is a lot of work to recover.  Easy cruising speed is 15 mph.  With the right tail and board I have zero front foot pressure at 20 mph +

A downwind average speed for well experienced guys might be 20klms/h and a world class downwinder might average 25-26 Klms/h in 25 knots plus and best conditions possible from what I understand. 6s period wind bumps travel at approximately 18klms/h in open ocean for reference.

Guys downwinding the ART might have typical average speeds 18-20klms per hour which is below where you think your stall speed is. Your wing is designed for good speed and glide in minimal power. It has an aspect ratio of 10 so specifically suited to low power efficiency.  It seems after the takeoff you are riding swell in water so deep that it results in a in low accessible power circumstance. The NL130 has design characteristics for high speed control and turning. Fighter jets don't have wings like gliders.

Each to their own.



Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: PonoBill on November 27, 2021, 11:32:51 PM
At the far end of what's possible, the Spencer brothers won the 10-mile downwing Gorge paddle challenge race in light wind with times of 25 minutes each, which is 24mph or almost 39 kph. the distance measurement was certainly not precise, but still...

As I recall they were on F-one foils.
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: burchas on November 28, 2021, 09:27:07 AM
...the Spencer brothers won the 10-mile downwing Gorge paddle challenge race in light wind... As I recall they were on F-one foils.

Aren't they sponsored by Slingshot? I believe their current offerings looks very similar to the F-One
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: FoilMad on November 28, 2021, 12:04:39 PM
Hi Bill,

Just to be sure we are on the same track, the speeds you are talking about for the spencer brothers are wind powered where as the title of this thread and its contents are about wave powered. Free winging downwind refers to parking the wing and riding the bumps. Wingers chasing speed like Alex A are pushing 30 knots while the best downwinders on SUPs in the best conditions are averaging 26-27 klms.


Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: Beasho on November 29, 2021, 07:31:56 AM
A downwind average speed for well experienced guys might be 20klms/h and a world class downwinder might average 25-26 Klms/h in 25 knots plus and best conditions possible from what I understand. 6s period wind bumps travel at approximately 18klms/h in open ocean for reference.

Guys downwinding the ART might have typical average speeds 18-20klms per hour which is below where you think your stall speed is. Your wing is designed for good speed and glide in minimal power. It has an aspect ratio of 10 so specifically suited to low power efficiency.  It seems after the takeoff you are riding swell in water so deep that it results in a in low accessible power circumstance. The NL130 has design characteristics for high speed control and turning. Fighter jets don't have wings like gliders.

I think we are in a Goldilocks phase.  We can have our cake and eat it too!  Speed, Pump and Turn.  At least for a short while.   

I have progressed from the GoFoil Kai, to Maliko 160, to IWA, M200, GL210, GL140, NL190, NL130 and then found the M280 to be my favorite wing last summer.  The IWA allowed me to carry further after taking off on a bigger wave.  The GL210 was able to keep up with faster waves that would otherwise get away.  The NL's were faster again but on the biggest waves I only trusted the NL130 or GL140 to stay down.

The Axis 999 has SPEED and Glide.  I haven't been pushing it with the turns too much yet.  I did take the Axis 999 out in 2 foot faces last week and was able to fly which was pretty unbelievable.  Yes this wing is a game changer but its NOT 500% better, more like 15% better.
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: Beasho on November 29, 2021, 07:57:50 AM
At the far end of what's possible, the Spencer brothers won the 10-mile downwing Gorge paddle challenge race in light wind with times of 25 minutes each, which is 24mph or almost 39 kph. the distance measurement was certainly not precise, but still...

Pono - Those speeds are CRAZY for sustained flight. 

I hit 25 miles per hour this weekend.  Feathering inside waves at Mavericks.  I had a friend Mark comment about this takeoff spot:

"Those waves are hard to catch on a Mavericks gun." 

With a 7' 4" SUP, the right foil and proper positioning I am catching waves that I have been trying to catch for 4 years.  Better yet people have been looking at this, these, waves for 40+ years.  The quick drop can be brutal, with a touch more size, and it breaks boards.  The buoys were just 6ft @ 12 seconds with (maybe) some underlying 13 second hidden energy but at Mavericks you can find surprise 2X overhead waves and then fly for 600+ yards. 

In 15+ sessions with the 90 cm mast I have yet to breach with this 999 wing.  I was using the 420 tail with 1 shim.  The 420 has less front foot kick than the 375 Progressive tail and is therefore better suited to bigger faster conditions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBKTDCsG9Ns
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: Beasho on November 29, 2021, 08:07:47 AM
My longest flight was 700 yards.  It took me 30 seconds to pass mushroom rock.  Average Speed 17.6 mph. 

A nice double overhead KICK in the pants, followed by a scurry behind the wave to wait for the energy to dissipate, then drop back in and go hunting on a relatively glassy face for almost a half mile.

Without the shim in the 420 tail the 999 should hold down well in Triple Overhead ++.  2 - 20 feet.

This was the stuff of dreams until now.
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: PonoBill on November 29, 2021, 10:04:34 AM
Yeah, when the spencer kids went by me (I rode upwind to watch the race from around the Hatchery) what they were doing looked impossible. They were going so fast the apparent wind turned their straight downwind angle into a fairly close reach. Mind-bending, especially since I was cruising downwind at the time, barely able to keep my wing up in a high-flagged position going downwind at a much less straight line in very light wind.

I mentioned this only as what I'd consider an upper bound for downwinging. Unless the wind is well over 25kts I don't think the average Joe or Josephine will go a lot faster. For most of us going faster means having a lower wind speed to push us, even if we're angling across the wind swells to gain more energy.
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on November 29, 2021, 10:10:22 AM

Without the shim in the 420 tail the 999 should hold down well in Triple Overhead ++.  2 - 20 feet.

This was the stuff of dreams until now.

I ride the 420, just got the 375. No wind… you mean the 375 has more of an angle so it will force the nose of the board up more than the 420?

I was looking at them and by my eye they should be similar in terms of drag, similar thickness and chord, just less width for the 375. I didn’t plan on what you describe which would be a high speed issue. I’ve had the 999 up to 24 mph with the 999 and it was steady in flat water, not much more front foot pressure than going 19mph.
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: 805StandUp on November 30, 2021, 11:55:15 AM
I spoke to Tucker and MacKite a couple weeks back and he interestingly recommended the GT1250 over the RS so I had one arrive only to find no waves.  Will see what I think but it is EXACTLY the same profile of the NL160 except steps in lieu of winglets so will be interesting to see if it really is gamechanging.  I am also looking forward to ride reports on the RS which should arrive in shops next month.

Initial reports are gamechanging! But they always tend to be. Until I actually see it, I remain cautiously optimistic or maybe pessimistically hopeful.  At risk of being the old grump, I've seen the hype train go by a few too many times now,  over-promising and under-delivering.  Reminds me of that line in the movie The Color of Money, about the wealthy pool player getting hustled: I don't mind losing the money, but I am not willing to just give it away.   ::)    So....let's hear those reports!  :)

Juan--I have been skunked ever since getting the GT so don't have any real perspective yet.  What I will say is that in the miniscule conditions we have had, the GT had less lift than the NL which was remediated by taking my feet further back than I usually ride on the NL.  I suspect it may have less AOA but haven't measured to confirm.  The only other thoughts are that it is super user friendly and easy to control and seems to pump better at slower speeds than equivalent NL size.  Will report back more when there is some semblance of a swell.
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: Beasho on January 19, 2022, 07:44:43 AM
So here is an interesting comparison between the ART 999 and the GoFoil NL190.  Back to back testing.

I have been exclusively SUP foiling the ART 999 and in Big Waves 10 - 15 foot+ takeoffs.  Mavericks was breaking, smallish, on Saturday so I paddle out with Emma.  Figure why not take a kid to Mavericks.

I attempt to chip into a few and can't quite make the drops.  Session looks like this.

The outer blips were attempts just inside the bowl.  The long run from what I call Cannonballs past Mushroom Rock.  Then we both headed in after sunset. 
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: Beasho on January 19, 2022, 07:45:13 AM
Let's catch one last wave at Black Hand Reef.  Black hand reef had surprisingly approachable 6 to 8 foot waves. 

One quick and easy ride back in BUT this was Tsunami Saturday, and it was Mavericks dead low tide with full moon and the buoys were 12 ft @ 15 seconds so . . . .

We get clipped by an outer wave.  Not a big wave maybe 7 to 8 feet.  But then we start getting dragged in.  I push record on the GoPro before the 2nd hit.

I come up after wave 3 and each successive wave is bigger.  6 - 8+ feet of whitewater now on the inside of Black Hand reef.  I am all tangled with the board, I come up and it looks like this. 

There is a bit of terror going through my mind 1) This leash is definitely going to break 2) The sun has already set 3) This board is going to wash into the bay and be gone forever. 

The little speck centered in the last photo in front of the whitewater was Emma learning how to take a beating.  At least she was wearing float. 
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: Beasho on January 19, 2022, 07:45:35 AM
Here was the full experience:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyQkwZgX7jo
Title: Re: ART999 vs GoFoil NL190 - SUP Foil Only
Post by: Beasho on January 19, 2022, 07:54:56 AM
A feature NOT a bug. 

In the old days with all Carbon Mast either the $800 mast would crack or my box would fail.  BOTH very expensive options.  In this case it is a $125 replacement part. 

But my Dad thinks he can fix it.
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