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The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: burchas on October 04, 2021, 08:36:24 PM

Title: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: burchas on October 04, 2021, 08:36:24 PM
Check out this dude, dangerous alcohol level!!! What under his hood?

https://youtu.be/F88ba_PMCZQ
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: jondrums on October 04, 2021, 09:19:50 PM
I saw that before - it was interesting to see all the fastest are on ozone wasp v2.  He must be on some magical foil - I'm assuming its Mike's Lab
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: surfcowboy on October 04, 2021, 09:22:41 PM
Yes, JH rides Mikeís Lab... and also has a lifetime of sailing experience.

But hereís the deal, take an hour or so (only sorta kidding) to break down his wing handling during tacks and jibes. Iím starting a thread.
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: surfcowboy on October 04, 2021, 10:05:03 PM
Ah, what the hell, Iíll hijack this one since his name is on it.


Hereís what Iím seeing. Clay, post your close up videos please. Iím lazy. lol

First his front hand is palm down. Iím goin to change my grip I think just so I can have a chance at doing this move. He never loses control of the wing. Heís moving at lightning speed and so thereís no time for slop.

Enter the jibe, raise both hands over your head to the back as you cross 90į back hand letís go and pushes the strut back over your shoulder.

After the push, you bring your front hand around and down in front of you, thus pulling the wing around your body. Think throwing a baseball side arm. Your front hand palm is now facing up. Your back hand meets the front and becomes the front hand and the released hand immediately goes back to grab the rear handle.

If you do it without a wing it makes sense. Crazy technique. Iím not sure a mortal could do it but I want to try. Itís an aggressive way to wrangle the wing and it seems to work really well. Completely active and in stark contrast to most other wingers passive slow pass. (Mine too, I tend to miraculously find the handle about 50% of the time.

This move forces the wing in close. Note how heís basically hugging the wing. When I jibe Iím reaching out what feels like 5 feet to grab that back handle.

He also foot switches and seems to always turn heelside/backside. Interesting. Yeah, Iím a fan lol

Iíd love to hear more breakdowns.
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: Dontsink on October 05, 2021, 03:08:40 AM
This one i stole from one of Clay's vids,apologies Clay.
https://youtu.be/YZdw-5kRnTA

Sometimes he footswitches before,sometimes after.It is a super cool,efficient jibe.I have done a couple,the critical bit is the timing of the sail switch plus the usual suspects of keeping the foil carving around etc...
I have not mastered it by any means but i am busy screwing up heelside tacks, i think this jibe is easier in comparison.
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: VB_Foil on October 05, 2021, 04:28:21 AM
I definitely want to learn this one.

One way to visualize it is to raise the wing to look downwind while starting the gybe. Then release the back hand and sling the wing around.

I also like the racing gybe he does. Iíve done a few of those and they few great.
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: Dontsink on October 05, 2021, 05:52:29 AM
I definitely want to learn this one.

One way to visualize it is to raise the wing to look downwind while starting the gybe. Then release the back hand and sling the wing around.

I also like the racing gybe he does. Iíve done a few of those and they few great.

But this one we are talking about  is is the  jibe i have always seen him use in race  vids...is there another one?.

The hand movements are very similar to a tack BTW.

https://youtu.be/IpvhuVLPimo
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: VB_Foil on October 05, 2021, 12:25:28 PM
I think Iíve seen him do a variation close to this one (probably in a free riding video):

https://youtu.be/UMsyhXXclCI

Either way, both of these types of gybes come into play when you are on a broad reach with a slalom type downwind gybe where your apparent windspeed drops significantly (or really light winds in general where a normal gybe creates this effect) Think going downwind at 20mph with 17 mph wind. You will backwind and mess up royally with a normal gybe, or you have to hold up the strut away from you before completing the hand pass, which slows you down with the increased drag.

Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: Dontsink on October 05, 2021, 12:32:43 PM
I really like that one too ,i call it the laydown jibe because it resembles a windsurf laydown jibe.
Two weeks ago i got my first 360* on foil by total chance,i was training those laydown jibes and kind of got stuck into the carve.
Happily surprised when i made it all the way around,pretended i did it on purpose of course :)
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: PonoBill on October 05, 2021, 08:57:47 PM
99 percent of the maneuvers I make that impress other people are accidental. Even if you stagger around a bit, as long as you don't fall it's a win. I also call that a laydown jibe, and I've managed a few of them. Coincidentally, when I returned to windsurfing a few years ago after ten years of layoff due to multiple rotator cuff injuries, the only planing jibe I could do was a laydown jibe. It was probably the last one I learned. All the rest were ingrained in muscle memory that no longer connected to reality.
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: surfcowboy on October 05, 2021, 09:04:28 PM
Ok, ok. But letís not get off into another lay down jibe thread. Focus up lol.

Is any other winger doing his regular jibe? I say no. Itís fascinating to me and yes, as was said, is very much like a tack. His jibe reminds me of Kaneís tack with that strut push.
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: Dontsink on October 05, 2021, 09:44:31 PM
Ok,so back to the Heineken jibe.
One of the mistakes i repeatedly bumped into was not getting the sail completely depowered,at least flat above my head ,before twirling it, Heinie goes way past flat and he pretty much backwinds it over his back right at the carve entry.
I agree that pushing the backhand away is key,but i have not gotten the timing down at all.
If you try to twirl the sail when it is still "driving" even a little bit it tries to dive right in front of your boards nose,not good :).
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: bigmtn on October 05, 2021, 10:52:08 PM
I did one on accident. Then tried to do it again and exploded. I'll try again later this week. They do look cool.

The lay down jibe is pretty fun to do and yeah if you don't switch your hands you can just keep carving it into a 360.
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: burchas on October 06, 2021, 06:31:33 AM
Itís funny that everyone here has an accident that ends up being a glorious maneuver. Every time I have one of those accidents I get banged up and have nothing to show for. I like to blame the conditions but deep down I know I suck.

In the meantime, some more glorious moves to aspire to.

https://vimeo.com/431712743
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: burchas on October 06, 2021, 06:53:57 AM
Here is a picture under the hood.
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: Solent Foiler on October 06, 2021, 07:54:22 AM
Ok,so back to the Heineken jibe.
One of the mistakes i repeatedly bumped into was not getting the sail completely depowered,at least flat above my head ,before twirling it, Heinie goes way past flat and he pretty much backwinds it over his back right at the carve entry.
I agree that pushing the backhand away is key,but i have not gotten the timing down at all.
If you try to twirl the sail when it is still "driving" even a little bit it tries to dive right in front of your boards nose,not good :).

I tried a couple today and had very similar experience to this. The only vague success ended up being a wonky duck gybe. I just couldn't get the wing flat overhead to bring down to the new side. Think I need more speed and head downwind more before lifting the wing... WIP...
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: surfcowboy on October 06, 2021, 07:51:12 PM
Burchas, I feel you. Mine are only good for some fail videos.

Iím curious to hear how these feel. I need to get out in the yard and practice one of these windy afternoons. Nothing like me running in a small semi-circle to finally convince the neighbors Iíve lost it.
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: burchas on October 06, 2021, 08:18:24 PM
Nothing like me running in a small semi-circle to finally convince the neighbors Iíve lost it.

I found a workaround, I do it on the beach and boast about the fancy kite I
bought my little one. I even allow a random kid the pleasure of pumping it for credibility.

But seriously, Iím starting to rethink my strategy and maybe spend more
time practicing maneuvers on the beach. it may not be fun but getting banged up sure isnít.
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: VB_Foil on October 08, 2021, 06:14:01 PM
Alan Cadiz latest Patreon video has a ĎHeineken gybeí tutorial. Paused the vid to make this post.

Race day tomorrow so Iím frothing!
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: surfcowboy on October 09, 2021, 06:52:43 AM
Iím way behind on these videos. Thx for the tip.

If youíre winging, sign up for that. Cheapest and best instruction out there.
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: VB_Foil on October 10, 2021, 05:32:09 PM
 I was able to pull it almost every try the last two days. My tip is to Ďcheck under the wingí after powering into a gybe (to reduce apparent wind). After looking under the wing, it is super easy to swing it around behind/over your head. Just be ready to snatch that back handle as it comes through powered up!
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: Dontsink on October 11, 2021, 03:33:52 AM
I was able to pull it almost every try the last two days. My tip is to Ďcheck under the wingí after powering into a gybe (to reduce apparent wind). After looking under the wing, it is super easy to swing it around behind/over your head. Just be ready to snatch that back handle as it comes through powered up!

Great tip,i actually read it during a rest in the session and then tried it a few minutes ago :)
It works really well,thx!.
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: VB_Foil on October 11, 2021, 08:01:46 AM
Thatís epic!! :o
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: headmount on October 11, 2021, 05:54:41 PM

"Enter the jibe, raise both hands over your head to the back as you cross 90į back hand letís go and pushes the strut back over your shoulder. "

Surfcowboy, So is this a 'push' since this back hand has had a grip that faces you?  The push being like a behind the back (of the neck in this case) pass in basketball?   These two pics are that moment, right?
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: surfcowboy on October 11, 2021, 08:21:21 PM
HM the palms are actually not facing up. They are down. Imagine grabbing a barbell to do a military press and then taking it over your head onto your shoulders in back (hence VBís comment.)

I canít do it on the beach, you need to be moving through a turn but you table top the wing and donít stop. The strut goes over your head and you push the strut over and back with your back hand as you let go. Sort of like shrugging it over. Release the back hand and your front hand is now behind your shoulder like youíre reared back to throw a ball. But instead of throwing it overhand, you side arm it around which makes your palm now face up. Your other hand comes the other way, meets it and becomes the front hand.

As was said, that hand thatís releasing the front handle now has to cook back before that strut flies away. I donít know if I can do this but it seems so much more controlled than leaving the wing sort of flapping around which is what I do.

VB are you able to do this at a normal speed or are you cranking the turns like JH?

Iím about to go watch Alan Cís video on it and Iíll post a recap.
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: headmount on October 11, 2021, 08:28:33 PM
HM the palms are actually not facing up. They are down. Imagine grabbing a barbell to do a military press and then taking it over your head onto your shoulders in back (hence VBís comment.)

I canít do it on the beach, you need to be moving through a turn but you table top the wing and donít stop. The strut goes over your head and you push the strut over and back with your back hand as you let go. Sort of like shrugging it over. Release the back hand and your front hand is now behind your shoulder like youíre reared back to throw a ball. But instead of throwing it overhand, you side arm it around which makes your palm now face up. Your other hand comes the other way, meets it and becomes the front hand.

As was said, that hand thatís releasing the front handle now has to cook back before that strut flies away. I donít know if I can do this but it seems so much more controlled than leaving the wing sort of flapping around which is what I do.

VB are you able to do this at a normal speed or are you cranking the turns like JH?

Iím about to go watch Alan Cís video on it and Iíll post a recap.
So that back hand, a la barbell, does a behind the neck pass, like Magic Johnson does in basketball?
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: headmount on October 11, 2021, 08:50:49 PM
The strut goes over your head and you push the strut over and back with your back hand as you let go. Sort of like shrugging it over.
Jason Williams Kings
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: surfcowboy on October 11, 2021, 09:12:21 PM
Exactly! The casual toss. That front hand swing around is sweet too. I got close once on the beach running in a 180 like an idiot and was amazed at how fast it was.
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: VB_Foil on October 12, 2021, 03:57:10 AM
Surfcowboy, so far Iíve only tried it in lighter 15-20mph conditions. The key for me is powering up into the gybe and if I feel the power drop at the end of that rear arm throttle, Iím comfortable going for the look under and throw around. If I feel a gust hitting, I change course and go standard gybe.   The visibility is so much better with this style gybe!
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: headmount on October 12, 2021, 12:56:16 PM
Surfcowboy, so far Iíve only tried it in lighter 15-20mph conditions. The key for me is powering up into the gybe and if I feel the power drop at the end of that rear arm throttle, Iím comfortable going for the look under and throw around. If I feel a gust hitting, I change course and go standard gybe.   The visibility is so much better with this style gybe!
Perfect.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: headmount on October 13, 2021, 09:53:27 AM
My tip is to Ďcheck under the wingí after powering into a gybe (to reduce apparent wind).
Would you elaborate this part a little more.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: VB_Foil on October 13, 2021, 02:59:51 PM
I'd describe a good first Heiny Gybe attempt like this:

Ride on a beam reach, heel-side, at moderate speed.  Check for downwind traffic a couple times in a row, raising the wing overhead by raising front arm, followed by rear arm and reseting.

Look for a spot to gybe where the wind isn't an obvious gusty spot.  Start turning down wind while simultaneously pulling in the rear arm slightly as you hold the wing slightly more vertical.  As you sheet in you will feel your speed increase and the pressure go neutral (if speed increase is too much for comfort, go for a normal gybe).  As soon as you feel that drop in power, repeat the 'check for downwind traffic' movement by raising your front and followed by rear hand.  Keep steady pressure on that toe-side rail.  At this point in the turn downwind, as your hands reach overhead in the umbrella position, the end of the strut should just about be pointing straight downwind (in line with the board nose - you will feel a stretch if you try this static) or slightly past downwind towards the new tack. 

As you continue turning in the next millisecond, let go with your back strut hand and do the sidearm throw motion with your lead hand.  The harder you are turning, the more the wing will feel the new wind direction and jump into its new sailing position as you bring your arm in front of your body.   Your hands will meet for a quick hand exchange on the front handle with existing hand facing palm up and the new grasping hand on the palm down position.    Your releasing palm up hand will need to flip palm down and grab the rear handle as it swings by with a bit of added momentum from the whole maneuver.(easy to miss). Maybe slowing rotation of the last part of gybe or slowing wing with the new front hand will ease that issue.  You are now on a toe-side stance beam reach where you can choose to switch feet or stay crossed up like me. 

The same gybe can be done, perhaps easier when starting in a toe-side stance because you are opening up through the rotation, rather than closing in and ending up toe-side, so maybe I should re-write this... ha. 

Still learning and only have a handful of these under my belt, but I can bet I will be doing them more than 50% of the time in the future.  Not sure if they will have any use turning onto waves, still thinking about that one (trying to think of a fluid way to get to flag out position without the handle passes)

 
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: deja vu on October 14, 2021, 06:01:10 AM
The last gybe shown in this video (at the 1:20 mark) is done over the head like a tack but as a gybe at high speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzAD6Nze-5M
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: Dontsink on October 14, 2021, 12:05:37 PM
The last gybe shown in this video (at the 1:20 mark) is done over the head like a tack but as a gybe at high speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzAD6Nze-5M

Great vid,and impressive speed for that chop!

Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: burchas on October 15, 2021, 02:37:23 PM
Exactly! The casual toss. That front hand swing around is sweet too...

Speaking about a toss, here is Johny. Apparently it works on a tack on a nuking day as well.
Pretty simple. Better avoid if you have a history of shoulder dislocation. Don't ask me how I know.

https://youtu.be/6fYIDWHLNyw
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: headmount on October 15, 2021, 03:16:46 PM
Exactly! The casual toss. That front hand swing around is sweet too...

Speaking about a toss, here is Johny. Apparently it works on a tack on a nuking day as well.
Pretty simple. Better avoid if you have a history of shoulder dislocation. Don't ask me how I know.

https://youtu.be/6fYIDWHLNyw
My god.  That's da best Johnny video yet.  Incredible how he's having a field day on the river.  Total control.  Than you for that.
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: VB_Foil on October 15, 2021, 06:24:16 PM
Definitely something to model after!
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: Solent Foiler on October 15, 2021, 10:45:02 PM
Check out KD's gybe at 1:04
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CVEYGU9F34I/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link (https://www.instagram.com/tv/CVEYGU9F34I/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link)
He rotates the wing in front of himself first and then brings it round himself (with a bit of leash tangle at the end!)
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: SUPeter on October 16, 2021, 01:42:12 PM
Why I ever ordered an ART 999, Iím not really sure.  I guess itíll be a whole level better than what I just flew.  The HPS 1050 just impressed the shit out of me.  So much high end speed and low end glide, never dropped off at low speed.  It made tacks on both sides, heel or toe side, (I donít switch stance) down right leisurely.  So much more time to execute because of the endless glide even into the wind.  If the ART 999 is better, Iím about to blow a gasket.  The 1050s pumpability was also very good.  Accomplished the longest down wind pumps Iíve ever had.  I have a feeling I will not be making my own gear for a while.  I will however adapt some of my current front foils to this Axis system.  So much less drag in the whole system. 
Very, very impressed!  Thanks Axis!
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: burchas on October 16, 2021, 04:15:45 PM
Why I ever ordered an ART 999, Iím not really sure...

Maybe you were guzzling Johny walker and getting high on Johnny Heineken while reading this thread? Probably why you posted this here ;D
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: PonoBill on October 16, 2021, 08:03:34 PM
It will be interesting to hear what you think Peter. I find myself disappointed when conditions are better for a different wing than the 999. It's weird, I just fucking love riding the silly thing. Right now I have essentially a three-wing quiver, though I have a lot more wings. 860 for crazy days, 999 for everything but silly light, and 1150 for silly light. I'm trying to talk myself into bringing the 1300 to Maui. I doubt I'll use it but it might be cool for small wave foil surfing. Junya and Alika (spelling??) love the damned thing. I'm not so happy with it.

The frantic swell riding Johnny Heineken does is kind of par for the course in the Gorge. Arlington gets nutty, but from the white salmon bridge to above Swell city, that kind of frantic unweighting, bump turns, and swell nuttiness is what we all get up on the morning for. Of course, I haven't seen anyone do it quite like Mr. Heineken, and I damned sure don't, but that's the extreme version of pretty much every day, as Mr. burchas well knows from his many downwind rides, albeit on a downwind SUP board.

Even weirder, I keep looking at his jibe and thinking "wait, that's what I do". Is there an easier way? Maybe that's why I'm having so much trouble. I guess I need to look at what a standard jibe is. I always transfer the wing over my head, across my back.

Johnny Heineken's moves seem familiar and possible if incredibly difficult to be done so smoothly, Kane's seem otherworldly and impossible. Even his footswitch. What the fuck is that?!? It looks like he steps forward and then pivots his back foot. How does that work? When did he move his back foot backward?? Does he run out of board? Seriously, how the hell does that work?
Title: Re: Johny walker & Jim Beam got nothing on Heineken
Post by: surfcowboy on October 17, 2021, 09:14:17 PM
Pono, glad you saw the foot switch too. Itís nearly impossible to catch that foot going back.

Someone has to get a high speed camera and shoot this guyís moves.

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