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The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: daswusup on September 17, 2021, 07:57:34 PM

Title: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: daswusup on September 17, 2021, 07:57:34 PM
This wing needs its own thread. The first batch just shipped so bring on the reviews.
I just had first session on it with carbon 86 mast, crazy short and 380 decently powered on a 4.5 Dart with a 80L 5' moon buddy.
Everything you have heard is true. Its effing magical! My first thought was about how lively this wing rides. It wants to carve and go fast and go slow and glide for miles. It was a little challenging to get it unstuck and onto foil. My 1050 gets up in less wind. I will agree with DW that it is comparable to the 980 in take off. The technique is similar where it needed proper hull speed before anything was even ready for liftoff. It is a very subtle pump to engage the foil. I was doing too much pumping and it didn't work. I think I will try my chopped down 400 to see if that helps with lift off.  Anyway, once up it was amazing. The other big thing I noticed was how slippery it was through the water. Its was easier than ever on my body and arms because there was so little drag. The turning is very ankly and skateboardish. It felt loose on the yah and somewhat tight on the roll. Once I reigned in the pitch control, I was able to rip carves, slightly off wind like I never have before. Carves were solid and powerful. One thing that was a little freaky was that if I carved it really hard, it would get locked into that turn and it was reluctant to let me change sides. I will need a few more sessions to get it dialed. Wingtip breaches were not an issue. Jumping was good. I felt like it had a lot more pop than other HA wings. It came out of the water quick and easy. It re-enterd the water easily too. I luffed the wing out and could pump it as far as I wanted with 1/2 the effort or any other foils except for the 1150. I'm going to try the ultrashort with it and see if it smooths things out. Super stoked on it and will report more sessions as they come. Send it!!!!!!!
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Califoilia on September 18, 2021, 04:42:57 PM
One thing that was a little freaky was that if I carved it really hard, it would get locked into that turn and it was reluctant to let me change sides. I will need a few more sessions to get it dialed.
Yeah, this is what myself, and a couple of the others who've tried it in the surf found also (https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,36966.msg431824.html#msg431824).

3.) As far as turning goes, you can make a longer, more drawn out turn with it, but trying to really surf it top to bottom...the wide wing span makes it a little difficult to transition top to bottom in comparison to some of the more "surfy", smaller Axis wings (BCS 810, PNG 850, or even the HPS 880) on a sup.
But like you, I want to experiment some more with different tails, even different mast placement, and see what happens.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Solent Foiler on September 19, 2021, 06:46:15 AM
Apparently there are some new tails soon to be released that work with the 999. Dominic Hoskyns teases them in his review...
https://youtu.be/fZl3gj-YUBo
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on September 19, 2021, 07:45:20 PM
I got mine yesterday. I was working on my new/old 1990 BMW R100R GS PD all day, even though the doors of the shop were rattling a little. I finally went and had a look--a bunch of kites down in the water waiting for a puff. I should have gone east.

The wing looks silly. No way that thing lifts me, but it does, and I'm enough of a geek to know why. Yes, it deserves its own thread. People will be examining this thing for the next few years. No way a 1000 sq/cm wing with a foil section like a butterknife should work for a fatass like me. But it does. It gets wet tomorrow. Here's what I posted on Facebook:

This is my new 999 wing placed on top of my 890 wing. I'm still a little freaked that the 890 works so well for me, I'm not a lightweight, but I can sort of understand why it does. It's got a fairly thick foil section, and while it's narrow, it's also wide and super high aspect. So while it's smaller than I generally use, it's got a reasonable amount of area, a somewhat chunky foil shape, and it moves through the water easily. In rough terms, lift equals surface area times foil factor times velocity squared. so if I get it going fast enough, it lifts me. I can get up on foil with this thing when the wind is good and I can get going fast. Once I'm up, it's a little better than my old favorite, the Axis 1000. Every time I ride it I like it a little better.

Now let's move to the 999. It's got 1000 sq cm of area and a foil cross-section about as thick as a butter knife. WTF. But here's the thing, it goes through the water just like that hot butter knife. It doesn't seem to require any more speed than the 890 to get me up on foil, but that might just be because it gets to speed so easily. Either that or I don't know what I'm writing about and it's just magic, At any rate, the wing on top makes the wing on the bottom totally obsolete. I should probably just sell the 890 and most of the other wings I own. I doubt I'll ever use them again.

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/242098401_10158557154853668_3789434664584523979_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=srgj_eboMCEAX-BBEdL&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=950b89866ee62dff1a084c34b1d3c572&oe=616CD949)
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: jondrums on September 20, 2021, 09:34:14 AM
Stayed up late last night in the machine shop getting my new ART999 all set up.  My first Axis foil, so I had to adapt it to fit the Cedrus Mast.  If you don't have a machine shop, Kyle sells an adapater.  I saved about $75 by using an Axis DooDad and drilling a new hole instead.

I was saddened to learn that Axis uses 35mm hole spacing for their tails.  I somehow thought we were getting closer to a standard of 30mm hole to hole - I guess not.  The world would be a better place if all fuselages provided a flat mounting surface on the BOTTOM of the fuse and a 30mm holes spacing.  The highly curved tail mount on the top is super annoying to adapt to.  Nothing a bridgeport can't solve though.

Out to surf it tomorrow morning - stayed up too late last night to get in the water this morning.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CUCUCnXruX8/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 20, 2021, 11:45:46 AM
You gave away the mechanical strength of the doodad.

Now youíve got a poor design that counts on nothing but screws to prevent the foil from snapping off when you touch a wing tip. I have seen setups like that, snap the screws and foil is gone forever. There is one in the deep blue sea at New Smyrna Beach. You could replace the screws with A286 high strength at $25 each from McMaster for peace of mind.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: jondrums on September 20, 2021, 01:25:55 PM
Thatís how the project cedrus mast to fuse joint is designed to work.  So far it has worked since M8 fasteners have a lot of meat and going to the high strength doubles the strength
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Solent Foiler on September 21, 2021, 03:54:24 AM
Quick question for 999 riders - I've got a 380 coming with mine but thinking about the best way to extend the low end range for winging. Does the 999 respond well to having a larger tail (say a 420 or even 460?) or is speed everything, so keeping it small the best way forward?
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: flkiter on September 21, 2021, 07:08:08 AM
Quick question for 999 riders - I've got a 380 coming with mine but thinking about the best way to extend the low end range for winging. Does the 999 respond well to having a larger tail (say a 420 or even 460?) or is speed everything, so keeping it small the best way forward?

I've found that if you put a bigger rear wing on that you'll get the lower end lift but then you'll also be slower riding. The 999 is very effecient with crazy low end so with a little practice, I don't think you'll need that bigger rear.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: jondrums on September 21, 2021, 09:20:58 AM
One session in review:

ART999 best pumping wing that surfs really well
Kujira1210 best surfing wing that pumps really well

I think I have my dream quiver of two.  If I wasnít so lazy Iíd take photos and list all my gofoil for sale that I havenít touched in months. 
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: burchas on September 21, 2021, 12:39:08 PM
I'm looking closely at a setup like Jondrums but it looks like the jury is still out on this wing as far as being a quiver killer.
Some seems to describe it as the greatest thing since sliced bread for every discipline and some find it more specific to a certain one.

Interesting to see how this thread evolves...
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Califoilia on September 21, 2021, 08:11:20 PM
Quick question for 999 riders - I've got a 380 coming with mine but thinking about the best way to extend the low end range for winging. Does the 999 respond well to having a larger tail (say a 420 or even 460?) or is speed everything, so keeping it small the best way forward?
2nd ride report in much better conditions than the first...today we had fairly glassy thigh to waist high playful waves.

Paired it with the 460 (because someone else was already using the 400HA) on a crazy short, and found that it just wants to go FAST...the faster the better.

Still had it about an 1" farther back in the tracks than any of the other wings I ride (actually don't move my mast when changing setups), and it still had great initial lift, and had no problem catching most every actual pitching, late drop wave, as it needs a good downhill start to get it to speed to lift like most all high(er) AR wings. Even whitewater takeoffs were very doable, as long as I made sure to get as far forward on the board as possible to hold the dang thing down as I was getting shot out of the cannon. Surprisingly stable given the narrow chord throughout most of its length, but you'll still need to start right on top of it, or it'll want to launch you early to one side if you're not in its more narrow window.

Turns went way better with this combo...as long as I hit the accelerator pedal, and then buried it hard into the turn to engage the flat 460. Try to turn it slow(er), and it loses a bite in the tail, and wants slide the tail out. Now while it "went way better", it's still not a top to bottom, snap it off the whitewater turner like the smaller wings in the surfs. Have a couple more tails I'd like to try just for the heck of it, but still don't expect it to all of a sudden snapping turns left and right due to its length. Now to the really fun part...

The thing glides and pumps forever!! As long as you keep it above its rather high stall speed, it'll pump as far as your stamina will take you.

That all said, probably won't be my "go to" surf setup - except for maybe smaller days like today - but can't wait to get it under a wingding, and might now even give a DWer a try...I think this is the wing for either of those foil disciplines.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Beasho on September 22, 2021, 09:07:12 AM
The thing glides and pumps forever!! As long as you keep it above its rather high stall speed, it'll pump as far as your stamina will take you.

Does anybody have any speed data on this ART 999 foil?  At a minimum something from an iWatch.

I know that my GoFoil GL280 can go SLOW as in 6 mph and still fly.  Its upper end is ~ 13 mph before it gets wonky.  The GoFoil NL 130, little blue rocket, on the other hand will start stalling around 11 mph, is uncomfortable at 13 mph but can easily handle 23 to 24 mph and occasionally hit 26 mph.  Maybe there is something to this math.  The upper limit is ~ 2X the stall speed. 
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: jondrums on September 22, 2021, 11:49:32 AM
review after second ride in bigger surf:
This wing has A LOT of flex.  Stability is funky in funky waves and white-wash - you can feel the wing wobbling around.   But I also started to feel that flex in pumping - if you hit the right cadence, I felt like the wing returns some energy as it "flaps".  Pretty awesome actually.

It wants to be on a rail for turns - does not like flat "pivot" style turns. It washed out and threw me several times, I guess I'm in a habit from the kujira which is perfectly happy to be slashed as well as railed.  The ART999 is plenty maneuverable, just needs to be put on edge with the load going directly down through the foil rather than turned while flat.  In practice this means you need to plan ahead a bit more and get it on edge before you want to turn.

Can't wait to wing on it, I think it will be an excellent winging foil because of how slippery it is - super low drag and comes up smooth as speed increases.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 22, 2021, 01:28:04 PM
https://youtu.be/uUBFo-jw3NM
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: bigmtn on September 24, 2021, 11:00:27 AM
Rode it yesterday for first time both prone and wing. The thing pumps amazing. When you push down, there's like a spring that pops you back up. It's fast, so you can cover large areas with minimal effort.

Winging its a glide machine. Perfect for smaller waves and wind bumps. It turns well enough for a big wing, but if I'm in bigger waves I'll obviously be using something much smaller like the 740.

I didn't feel much flex. Used alu mast, but I did feel that bird wing feeling. It just feels like a spring when you're pumping. It just shoots you back up after you press down on your pump. Makes it easier to stay high on the mast.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on September 26, 2021, 05:25:08 PM
Okay, so this is fucking weird. I'm not that entranced by tails. I use a 390 and a 340. Had some others, they didn't seem important, so I stick with what I'm comfortable with. but when I ordered my 999 I also ordered a 400, because everyone said it's the one to use.

So I went with that yesterday, and I stalled and stalled until I got going fast enough, and then it was very fast and glided forever. When I pumped it to connect through lulls I absolutely felt the "flappy" thing that others have commented on. I didn't feel that the first time. And when I ran out of wind, and it got slow enough, it would just drop suddenly. Bam. What the fuck is with all the stalling. So I went back to the beach and put on the 390. and now it won't stall, no matter what I do--come up too steep, go too slow--won't stall. but it also isn't crazy fast. It was great, turns better, I don't feel the flappy thing, it's just a well-mannered, fairly fast wing that glides forever and makes jibes easy.

I thought it might all be in my head, so I switched back to the 400 with a little better wind, and I stalled and stalled getting up. Once I was up it was all good until I hit a big lull and it dropped out of the sky despite my pumping, I mean really, WTF? Swapped back to the 390, and it's completely a different wing. I don't get it. What is going on??

I don't trust my head for this, I know I can bullshit myself.  if you've got both tails, please try them and let me know what you think. Could the tail change this thing so radically??
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Hdip on September 26, 2021, 05:37:14 PM
Tails make a huge difference. Almost as much difference as a board makes. And the board isnít even in the water and itís huge.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: VB_Foil on September 26, 2021, 05:38:20 PM
Pono, is there a chance there is a difference in the inherent AOA between the two tail wings?  Sounds like a pretty drastic change. Great find! A buddy of mine is waiting on the 999, so Iíll pass on this intel.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: StephenZ on September 26, 2021, 10:10:59 PM
I don't trust my head for this, I know I can bullshit myself.  if you've got both tails, please try them and let me know what you think. Could the tail change this thing so radically??

I'd also love to hear the answer to this.
I was reading your original messages about it not stalling for anything and thinking that just didn't correspond with my experience. And I'm quite a bit lighter  ???

I am also finding that if you get too slow it can suddenly drop out on you. This make things like tacks more challenging - if you lose speed you go down, really got to drive through it.
I'm riding with a 420, but also rode it with a 400 and from that point of view felt similar.

I'm amazed that a tail wing could make such a difference to this.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Califoilia on September 26, 2021, 11:13:06 PM
Okay, so this is fucking weird. I'm not that entranced by tails. I use a 390 and a 340. Had some others, they didn't seem important, so I stick with what I'm comfortable with. but when I ordered my 999 I also ordered a 400, because everyone said it's the one to use.

So I went with that yesterday, and I stalled and stalled until I got going fast enough, and then it was very fast and glided forever. When I pumped it to connect through lulls I absolutely felt the "flappy" thing that others have commented on. I didn't feel that the first time. And when I ran out of wind, and it got slow enough, it would just drop suddenly. Bam. What the fuck is with all the stalling. So I went back to the beach and put on the 390. and now it won't stall, no matter what I do--come up too steep, go too slow--won't stall. but it also isn't crazy fast. It was great, turns better, I don't feel the flappy thing, it's just a well-mannered, fairly fast wing that glides forever and makes jibes easy.

I thought it might all be in my head, so I switched back to the 400 with a little better wind, and I stalled and stalled getting up. Once I was up it was all good until I hit a big lull and it dropped out of the sky despite my pumping, I mean really, WTF? Swapped back to the 390, and it's completely a different wing. I don't get it. What is going on??

I don't trust my head for this, I know I can bullshit myself.  if you've got both tails, please try them and let me know what you think. Could the tail change this thing so radically??
Only a guess since you didn't state which "400", but since most are using the 400HA on the HA wings where the 999 tops them all..I'm going with that in my WAG.

As such, I think it's the smaller surface area of the 400HA (196.24 cm≤) compared to the surface area of the 390 (254.52 cm≤) that's causing the stall issues at slower speeds. I find that the higher AR I go with front wings, the larger tail wing I need to ride. For instance, with similar sized front wings - the 910, 880, and 890 - I ride the 380 with both the 910 (6.8 AR), and 890 (6.43 AR)...but need the little extra tail of the 420 with the 880 (7.17 AR).

With the 999 in the surf I felt a similar stall problem during takeoffs when trying the 400HA last time out instead of the 420 which has only a slightly larger surface area (212.63 cm≤), but it was really noticeably different.

The stall speed while pumping is still ridiculously high with the 420 and the unsuspecting sudden drop-off is a PITA, and makes it hard to connect waves since you have to keep the speed up when making the turn, and with it being so wide that's somewhat difficult to do.

So tmrw I'm going to throw in the regular/older 400 (291.18 cm≤), and see what that will do pump/stall wise, cuz I'm thinking it'll turn just fine or even better being shorter that the 420, and still with some tips...just have to see if it'll be too slow. Should be fun no matter what, looking forward to tmrw morning. 👍🏽😊
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: flkiter on September 27, 2021, 03:18:39 AM
I've found using the rear shim helps with the stall at lower speeds. I was having the same issue with the 980 V1 and once I added the shim, the stall went away so now I ride all the black series stuff with the shim. I like the 370 with the 999. Rear wings are as important as the front wing. Different stance, weight forward or rear foot, speed that you ride at, ECT.... All those things make a big difference in what rear wings work correctly.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Solent Foiler on September 27, 2021, 06:41:40 AM
Different stance, weight forward or rear foot, speed that you ride at, ECT.... All those things make a big difference in what rear wings work correctly.
Which makes recommendations difficult! Argh, I might just have to see how the 380 works for me and take it from there but it sounds like it's going to be on the small side for me, even at 65kg, unless it's moderate breeze or more...
Keeping a close eye on this thread so thanks for feeding your experiences back everyone. Tempted to order a second, larger tail to pair the 380, to arrive with the 999 though...
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: jondrums on September 27, 2021, 08:57:31 AM
I'm willing to bet it has to do with the angle of attack of the tail rather than the size.   For a given tail, I found the need to mess with shims adjusting the angle of attack through .5deg increments to find its ideal setting for the way I ride.  If you're stalling suddenly, go with a bit more shim (more downforce or more negative angle of attack).
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: flkiter on September 27, 2021, 09:32:22 AM
Different stance, weight forward or rear foot, speed that you ride at, ECT.... All those things make a big difference in what rear wings work correctly.
Which makes recommendations difficult! Argh, I might just have to see how the 380 works for me and take it from there but it sounds like it's going to be on the small side for me, even at 65kg, unless it's moderate breeze or more...
Keeping a close eye on this thread so thanks for feeding your experiences back everyone. Tempted to order a second, larger tail to pair the 380, to arrive with the 999 though...

You'll be surprised with the low end of the 999, I feel it easily has the low end of the 1010. I'm still amazed that it puts out so much glide and lift for such a small wing.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Hdip on September 27, 2021, 10:30:42 AM
I'm willing to bet it has to do with the angle of attack of the tail rather than the size.   For a given tail, I found the need to mess with shims adjusting the angle of attack through .5deg increments to find its ideal setting for the way I ride.  If you're stalling suddenly, go with a bit more shim (more downforce or more negative angle of attack).

More shim to raise the rear of the tail wing? Or to lower the rear of the tail wing?
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: clay on September 27, 2021, 10:47:25 AM
My best wild 2 cent guess is that bigger tails don't push through the water, they hold altitude and this keeps the front wing from hitting a sudden high angle of attack and immediately stalling.

I despise the 390, but it helps in really light weak wind when I'm desperate and wouldn't be able to fly otherwise.   Reminds me of the slingshot 48 in that they are both super slow and hold altitude.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: jondrums on September 27, 2021, 11:03:00 AM
If you're stalling suddenly, go with a bit more shim (more downforce or more negative angle of attack).

More shim to raise the rear of the tail wing? Or to lower the rear of the tail wing?

yes, raise the rear end of the tail.  This will do a few things: 1) increase the downforce of the tail, which in effect requires you to move forward a little bit on the board 2) because the balanced center of gravity of the board/rider is now further forward - the system is now more stable in pitch. 3) the tail will have a bit more drag

Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: bigmtn on September 27, 2021, 02:00:12 PM
I use a kane tail with mine, no shim.  dropped off foil once while pumping back out, but I think that was more to do with the size of the previous set, and the amount of water that was flowing out the channel that I was trying to pump out.  Winging, I have no problem going slow when making turns and trying to hold my ground while waiting for the next wave to come.  So far I've been very happy with this wing.  Rode it on some easily head high waves with the wing, and never felt like I was about to breach, and have had some of my better downwind pumping/riding sessions.  Really looking forward to an even smaller faster size.

Pono, try the 400 tail with some of the other front foils you have, and see if you have the same experience.  Also try adding the rear triangle shaped shim to the 400... You might just need a larger stab for your size.  Or just go faster all the time  ;D
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dontsink on September 27, 2021, 02:42:10 PM
Trying to see the logic in this,here is my wild A guess.

At low speed (close to stall) the tail provides little or no downforce.Adding shims to make it do so should,on paper,make things worse not better.More downforce on the tail means more load for the front wing to lift plus it creates a pitch up moment that puts you even closer to stall angle.

I recently read an article that talked about airplane tails creating upwards lift at very slow speeds, i think some competition glider pilots have played with this.It is certainly not a safe way to fly but it surprised me that it was even doable.

Maybe the ART999 tail that is giving lower stall speed and refusing to stall is doing something like that?.
If it provides upwards lift at low speeds/high AOA  it commands a pitch down plus it reduces a tiny bit of load from the front wing.Maybe enough to make a noticeable difference?.

But it does not fit very well at all with the other tail being faster and more glidey.Duh.

Maybe,as Jondrums wrote,you are just feeling the better pitch stability and dampened reactions that bigger tails provide.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on September 27, 2021, 07:16:57 PM
I mentioned this also on Facebook, and Rob Pirie said this:

"Hereís my take on it. You are getting more tail lift from the anhedral 390, when you swap to the 400 much less lift but more speed so you need to increase pressure on your front foot. Too much back foot pressure at lower speed you with sink the 400 and it will cause the stall on the 999 ( I call it crushing the tail). So when the wind drops you need to push through your front foot and do mini pumps keeping the pressure on the front wing not the rear. Even try creeping your front forward a touch it does make a big difference on the 999."

That makes a lot of sense to me. For clarification, with the 390 tail I could NOT make the 999 stall. I tried when I was coming in at the finish of my session and finally had to just fall off the board--it would not come down, even when I spun it 180 after I had let go of the wing. Really, the best way to stop is to pitch it down and let the board slow everything to a stop, Even just maybe 2mph is enough for it to stay up with the 390.

So obviously I have some experimenting and tuning in my near future. All I want is the speed of the 400 with the persistence and stability of the 390. Not too much to ask. I think shimming might help a lot, but also I probably shouldn't be controlling pitch like it's on autopilot. More front foot.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on September 27, 2021, 07:21:33 PM
As such, I think it's the smaller surface area of the 400HA (196.24 cm≤) compared to the surface area of the 390 (254.52 cm≤) that's causing the stall issues at slower speeds. I find that the higher AR I go with front wings, the larger tail wing I need to ride. For instance, with similar sized front wings - the 910, 880, and 890 - I ride the 380 with both the 910 (6.8 AR), and 890 (6.43 AR)...but need the little extra tail of the 420 with the 880 (7.17 AR).

With the 999 in the surf I felt a similar stall problem during takeoffs when trying the 400HA last time out instead of the 420 which has only a slightly larger surface area (212.63 cm≤), but it was really noticeably different.

The stall speed while pumping is still ridiculously high with the 420 and the unsuspecting sudden drop-off is a PITA, and makes it hard to connect waves since you have to keep the speed up when making the turn, and with it being so wide that's somewhat difficult to do.

So tmrw I'm going to throw in the regular/older 400 (291.18 cm≤), and see what that will do pump/stall wise, cuz I'm thinking it'll turn just fine or even better being shorter that the 420, and still with some tips...just have to see if it'll be too slow. Should be fun no matter what, looking forward to tmrw morning. 👍🏽😊

I think have the new super dinky one. It looks ridiculously narrow and isection is very thin.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dontsink on September 27, 2021, 08:50:56 PM
I
That makes a lot of sense to me. For clarification, with the 390 tail I could NOT make the 999 stall. I tried when I was coming in at the finish of my session and finally had to just fall off the board--it would not come down, even when I spun it 180 after I had let go of the wing. Really, the best way to stop is to pitch it down and let the board slow everything to a stop, Even just maybe 2mph is enough for it to stay up with the 390.



Is this a joke?.
Wish this were true,but it cannot be.Not possible in this world,laws of physics and all that crap.Slow down enough and it will stall,period.

Is there a  vid of this miracle?.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: daswusup on September 27, 2021, 09:28:56 PM
I have only run mine with the 380/crazy short. It is kind of a PITA to get to foil in light wind but once up, I can stay up. I will try the chopped 400 next.  One thing I noticed as I was fondling my quiver in the garage was the angle of incidence of the 2 masts Carbon vs ALu was off by a fair bit. I would say 3 degrees. The ALU mast aims the foil more upwards than the carbon mast. See pic below. I am keen to try the 999 with ALU mast and see if there is easier lift off. Going back to the shim is intriguing too. It just seems like a a special foil that needs some tuning to get the most out of it. I am taking it to Maui for 10 days thursday and will get lots of 999 time. Oh Snap!
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: daswusup on September 27, 2021, 09:32:19 PM
more pics of the mast angles
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 28, 2021, 02:56:30 AM
The trailing edge of the carbon mast is square to the base. The leading edge is tapered. It means the track placement between carbon and aluminum is ďslightlyĒ different. When you ride carbon go back in the tracks a little more.

If you ride all carbon, or all aluminum, you would never know the difference.

The 999 is plug and play simple to me. If you have a straight tail, no shim. If not, use shim.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Solent Foiler on September 28, 2021, 03:02:29 AM
I have only run mine with the 380/crazy short. It is kind of a PITA to get to foil in light wind but once up, I can stay up. I will try the chopped 400 next...
If getting up is the issue, is it also worth trying mast shimming? I've got a 2mm mast shim to help getting on foil and I can't feel it  and doesn't change the foil dynamics once riding...
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on September 28, 2021, 08:42:34 AM
I
That makes a lot of sense to me. For clarification, with the 390 tail I could NOT make the 999 stall. I tried when I was coming in at the finish of my session and finally had to just fall off the board--it would not come down, even when I spun it 180 after I had let go of the wing. Really, the best way to stop is to pitch it down and let the board slow everything to a stop, Even just maybe 2mph is enough for it to stay up with the 390.



Is this a joke?.
Wish this were true,but it cannot be.Not possible in this world,laws of physics and all that crap.Slow down enough and it will stall,period.

Is there a  vid of this miracle?.
Nope, and nope. I don't have a speedometer of course, this is all just feel, but with the 390 tail the 999 will go as slow as an 1150. Why do you think I'm so confused about this? I'm sure if I got it going slow enough and held the nose up it would stall and drop but so far I haven't managed to do that with the 390 tail. I'm not saying this is the right tail to use for this wing, in fact, it's clearly the wrong tail wing. It slows the whole system down painfully. And it will definitely come down in a big lull--the nose points down and it coasts down to the surface. What it doesn't do is stall and drop. It most definitely will stall and drop with the 400. What I want is to get somewhere in between these two extremes. I have a lot of suggestions to try.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: StephenZ on September 29, 2021, 02:39:55 AM
Shimming the rear wing (with the triangle shim) does seem to make a huge difference.  No sudden drops, gives plenty of warning, and only once going very slowly. I'm on a 420 rear.

Also felt the extra drag though, so doesn't come for free.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on September 29, 2021, 07:49:59 AM
I have only run mine with the 380/crazy short. It is kind of a PITA to get to foil in light wind but once up, I can stay up. I will try the chopped 400 next.  One thing I noticed as I was fondling my quiver in the garage was the angle of incidence of the 2 masts Carbon vs ALu was off by a fair bit. I would say 3 degrees. The ALU mast aims the foil more upwards than the carbon mast. See pic below. I am keen to try the 999 with ALU mast and see if there is easier lift off. Going back to the shim is intriguing too. It just seems like a a special foil that needs some tuning to get the most out of it. I am taking it to Maui for 10 days thursday and will get lots of 999 time. Oh Snap!

I had to add two more shims to my baseplate to get the aluminum mast trimmed flat. I use one 1degree shim for the carbon mast and three for the aluminum.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Califoilia on September 29, 2021, 08:55:40 AM
I had to add two more shims to my baseplate to get the aluminum mast trimmed flat. I use one 1degree shim for the carbon mast and three for the aluminum.
I still don't understand why some shapers continue to put tail rockers in foil boards...they're not surfboards!

Get the bottom so the fuse is parallel with the deck, and all of the baseplate shimming needs go bye-bye.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: winged surfer on September 29, 2021, 10:27:25 AM
So whatís the best tail wing for the 999?
Maybe the 400 HA?
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Foilgeoff on September 30, 2021, 02:41:04 AM
Any thoughts on how the 999 overlaps with other Axis foils?
Iíve read comments like itís similar in bottom end to the PNG 1010, does that sound about right?
How does it relate to the top end of the HPS880?
Could it replace both?
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 30, 2021, 04:11:04 AM
Any thoughts on how the 999 overlaps with other Axis foils?
Iíve read comments like itís similar in bottom end to the PNG 1010, does that sound about right?
How does it relate to the top end of the HPS880?
Could it replace both?

It replaces my HPS-980, 880, 830 winging.

It replaced the HPS1050 winging sometimes, but not 100%.

SUP foiling it replaces everything when at New Smyrna, but not Cocoa Beach in knee high surf. New Smyrna waves have 50% more power than Cocoa Beach. In Cocoa Beach I need waist high.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Foilgeoff on September 30, 2021, 09:56:25 AM
Thanks Dwight.
WowÖ
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Mario_Wings on September 30, 2021, 02:54:48 PM

It replaces my HPS-980, 880, 830 winging.

It replaced the HPS1050 winging sometimes, but not 100%.



How heavy are you Dwight?

Maybe silly question but would you think your comment applies to an 87kg person?
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 30, 2021, 04:02:20 PM

How heavy are you Dwight?



Iím 88 kg
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Mario_Wings on September 30, 2021, 07:37:20 PM


Iím 88 kg

wow . . . thought you were about 78kg . . . the vids make you look lighter.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 01, 2021, 03:50:07 AM


Iím 88 kg

wow . . . thought you were about 78kg . . . the vids make you look lighter.

Iím 6í2   tall guys weigh more.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: daswusup on October 07, 2021, 07:03:04 PM
Just got my first legit ocean waves on the 999 towing in with the wingding. Holy chit! The glide that thing has makes surfing so sick. I now have a dozen sessions on it. I can't seem to go back to anything else. I am foiling in the future and anything else is history. I have no problem getting it up anymore. I am running it with the crazy short and ultra short and always the 380. I am in West Maui and this sport has completely renewed my view on this side of the island. I launched kites here for as long as I have been coming here and it was always an adventure with the off shore condo rotors and barrier reefs. No problem with the wing. just paddle out to the wind line and send it. The 999 is so damn efficient that it has opened up miles of terrain from the condo. I can jam up to the surf spot 2 miles away in about 7 minutes and tow into reef breaks. After that, its a beautiful downwind run to the condo with rolling ocean swell to luff in. I am FROTHING!!!! Small craft advisory for the next few days with long period swell coming tonight. Sending
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Beasho on October 13, 2021, 06:45:52 AM
I could stand it no more and with the help of DW pushed the 'BUY' button.

I just came back from Hawaii and I have been on GoFoils since day ONE 4 1/2 years ago.  But I had foil envy.

We were at Sunset point in Oahu.  Last year there were just 3 wingers, this year 10.  There were guys would would tack upwind, turn and immediately start gliding on swell 500 yards outside the break.  Just flagging away.  I was on a GoFoil GL210.  No way I could do that. 

Also while we were there the swell period picked up from say 10 seconds to 13 seconds.  On the wing I could NOT keep up with the swell pointing slightly into the wind.  I could turn on a face but then even close to the break waves would get away from me and I would fall off the back and go for the wave behind.

There was a guy on an Axis Wing, and Armstrong NOT suffering from these ailments.  From the various forums I have heard POSITIVE reports from:  DW, PonoBill, Piros and a guy named Frazer Shaw all claiming this wing is a NEW REVOLUTION.

Spoke with Lenny at Liv2Kite and he claims it is the Unicorn wing.  The only wing that people go to after these (Axis) wings is Mikes Lab.

SOLD!
  Full Axis KIT has been ordered.

Reports to come.  But I have dreams of feathering Mavericks swell and 15 mph winds. 
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Hdip on October 13, 2021, 07:10:05 AM
I wouldnít sell the gofoil gear just yet. Really good reviews of new gofoil wings are coming out too.

What axis mast and fuse length did you get?
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on October 13, 2021, 08:28:45 AM
I haven't ridden any wing that compares to the 999---yet. Most manufacturers seem to be extremely reticent to copy other designs, but any manufacturer that isn't looking hard at the 999 would have to be a little nutty. I don't know what makes this thing work like it does, but I'm sure most designers could figure it out.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: bigmtn on October 13, 2021, 08:44:14 AM
I could stand it no more and with the help of DW pushed the 'BUY' button.

I just came back from Hawaii and I have been on GoFoils since day ONE 4 1/2 years ago.  But I had foil envy.

We were at Sunset point in Oahu.  Last year there were just 3 wingers, this year 10.  There were guys would would tack upwind, turn and immediately start gliding on swell 500 yards outside the break.  Just flagging away.  I was on a GoFoil GL210.  No way I could do that. 

Also while we were there the swell period picked up from say 10 seconds to 13 seconds.  On the wing I could NOT keep up with the swell pointing slightly into the wind.  I could turn on a face but then even close to the break waves would get away from me and I would fall off the back and go for the wave behind.

There was a guy on an Axis Wing, and Armstrong NOT suffering from these ailments.  From the various forums I have heard POSITIVE reports from:  DW, PonoBill, Piros and a guy named Frazer Shaw all claiming this wing is a NEW REVOLUTION.

Thought that was you. Those were a couple fun days. I was on the 999. You should have seen it this last weekend. Next level!
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: SUPeter on October 13, 2021, 09:19:32 AM
So many people, me included, hitting the Buy Now button, there is now a waiting period due to backorder.  Yes, this foil has impressed me in the reviews alone. Having just made what I feel is my new magic foil, I still felt the need to try this one.   As I wait patiently for nirvana to arrive i will have to be satisfied with my latest wing and the HPS1050 that came with my new 'Black series" set up.  Those two wings alone could be the ultimate quiver for my winging fun.  Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on October 13, 2021, 09:27:35 AM
I could stand it no more and with the help of DW pushed the 'BUY' button.


Spoke with Lenny at Liv2Kite and he claims it is the Unicorn wing.  The only wing that people go to after these (Axis) wings is Mikes Lab.

SOLD!
  Full Axis KIT has been ordered.

Reports to come.  But I have dreams of feathering Mavericks swell and 15 mph winds. 

Can confirm, my ART is now my everyday foil. I ordered it the same day it went on their site. I picked up a Mikes Lab 640cm^2 foil for racing and speed runs last week because I wanted a foil that was going to be a challenge and to push speed. Its similar to the axis but just smaller and more efficient so starting it harder so I need to be on the top end of my wing range. Makes my ART feel like a minivan, but the speed is so incredible I donít want to take it over 25mph without a better leash system/reel leash so soften the crashes. Wave riding is hard due to the speed but I canít be outrun by any waves, thatís for sure. The mast was 103cm before the tuttle adapter so Iím 1.1m off the water! Others buying new ML wings are on 1000 or 800 cm ML wings for everyday riding with a 10AR.

If an art 899 comes out at 10 AR then it would be 899 width and 792 cm^2. This will also be a popular wing but not for low wind.  Any modular system wonít ever be as smooth as  a single piece foil, but itís worth staying modular for the ability to swap for prone riding vs normal winging, etc. as well as the future, who knows what will happen! It does seem that around 10AR is the high water mark since most folks will need 800+cm^2 for normal riding and that means the width gets big enough that turning suffers so higher AR isnít practical. Maybe an 800cm^2 wing at an AR of 12 with 98cm wingspan would be the max.

The 999 is an awesome wing and Iím sticking with it even if a smaller one comes out since itís just big enough to be my largest foil (barely) and Iíd have to replace it with something larger if I sold it. There was no adjustment from my hps 980, just better glide.

Crazy going from an AR of 3.5 to 7.5 to 10 in my wings since I started this spring! Also +2000cm to 1300 to 1000 to 640cm wings, the last two are the only ones I ride now. I would not have expected that!
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Beasho on October 13, 2021, 03:34:28 PM
Thought that was you. Those were a couple fun days. I was on the 999. You should have seen it this last weekend. Next level!

Funny!  There was a guy on an Axis (maybe you), the 'Green Hornet' on Armstrong, who posted a video on Instagram of Ocean Baby, and then Ocean Baby's husband on the Aluula wing.  The Aluula guy was on a Unifoil and also displayed ultimate gliding capability.  Then my business partner on the 6.0 Red Wasp 2.  He too was on a GoFoil GL180 but not gliding like a superhero. 

This shot taken by the Green Hornet (I. Freitas).  I might have had me in the background on my Echo 5.0, or else it was Chris who was also on GoFoil but not complaining like I am/was. 
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: paddlur on October 13, 2021, 05:01:17 PM
Beasho good call you wonít regret getting Axis so many options for winging and Supfoiling great foils.Never tried the 999 yet winging but very happy with 980 and 1050 HPS winging at the moment here in NE Brasil.One suggestion I can make for supfoil is the 890 BSC wing just a amazing wing Iím 225 lbs so maybe you might go next step down on BSC series but if you get a chance try one on the Supfoil🙌and you can use it winging on windier days too boot.In good wave energy think the BSC handle better than HA wings horses for coarses of course
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: FoilMad on October 14, 2021, 02:11:25 AM
Jeez bit rough Beasho, comparing a 2.5 year old GL release to other brands current models. The NL's were a big upgrade in speed and glide and they themselves are a year old now too.
The GL's were along way ahead of the pack for a long time. It took the Armstrong HS 1250 before they overtook the GL's and caught the NL's but only if you can handle the wing tip breaching issues of the HS series.

Axis have done well with the HPS but were following along behind before.

I do think if you are all about glide it would be worth studying the downwind races and their performances on different brands.

My context is for performance wave riding with a wing, SUP or Prone.

The ART looks clever but 1m wide.
Gofoil RS is the next to release but interestingly they didn't feel the need to go as high aspect as lift, Armstrong and Axis.

I pay full price for my foils unfortunately and am very interested in all brands next releases.



Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Beasho on October 14, 2021, 06:28:07 AM
Jeez bit rough Beasho, comparing a 2.5 year old GL release to other brands current models. The NL's were a big upgrade in speed and glide and they themselves are a year old now too.
The GL's were along way ahead of the pack for a long time. It took the Armstrong HS 1250 before they overtook the GL's and caught the NL's but only if you can handle the wing tip breaching issues of the HS series. . . . . .

My context is for performance wave riding with a wing, SUP or Prone.

My GoFoil experience has included: Kai, M160, M200, Iwa , GL210, GL140, NL190, NL130 (rocket), M280.  Since May 2017.  My context has been Big Wave Riding SUP Foil.  500+ sessions.  For example when the faces are guaranteed to be 12 feet or more, and my home break is Mavericks, I will rig up my NL130 on a 7' 4" SUP and try to catch waves on the 7 reefs between Mushroom Rock and the Mavericks bowl.  And it works.  But I have NO ONE to talk to or learn from.  I have posted about this, taken GoPro Max video, tried to drag Jeff Clark and Haley Fiske out there and they smile and then politely don't show up.  I would put the NL130 at the top of the list for big wave foiling BUT I am audience of 1 and

Winging is a whole different animal.

I am still an intermediate winger (~50 sessions).  In Hawaii I grabbed for my GL210 because it gets me up and flying quickly.  But when I was pointing up wind I was struggling to keep up with the swell and it would outrun me.  IF I was flagging on a wave I could keep up with this faster swell riding the wave and pumping but to flag required more energy from the wave face, and therefore I had to be in, or near the break zone.

The wave period picked up to 13 seconds and I switched down to the NL190.  This helped to keep up with the wave speed but was a lot of work to get up and flying.  Constant takeoff and crashing stall. (Probably my technique).  The other guy Chris was on an NL190 and doing better than I was.  BUT, All of this said there were still those 2 guys flagging their wings from the outside.  Something VERY, VERY different AND consistent with the feedback on this thread. 

The sugarplum fairies are dancing in my head.  The new dream is 12 ft @ 10 seconds with 15 knots of wind.  Flagging from the outside at Mavericks.  The only hope is the ART999. 

PS: I will keep my GoFoil foundation but am investing in another set of infrastructure. 
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Beasho on October 14, 2021, 06:58:13 AM
Here is a quick video of the Oahu sessions. This was at Mokes.  I was on the GL210.  The other guy was on a Kujira 1210 and flagging on a small wave.  I did tow foil the Kujira 1210 and found its glide and pumpability impressive better than the GoFoil NL's. 

I would have pulled the trigger on the Kujira but the poor craftsmanship, in-ability to buy modular wings and rave reviews of the ART 999 (and other foils) pushed me towards Axis. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ews1rMMhGqk
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on October 14, 2021, 07:16:21 AM
I'm continually impressed with Gofoil equipment, it's a relatively small company serving a hungry market that grew from nothing almost overnight. I would consider innovating in the face of the kind of demand that existed last summer to be an almost impossible task, but Alex pulls it off and does it well. In part, because he's fully committed, in part, because he clearly understands what he's doing, and in part, because he has a group of loyal followers on Maui that test the heck out of every design and give him immediate feedback. When people complain about Alex's buddies getting wings that aren't available to them what they fail to understand is that those people are Alex's ART, an important element of his development process.

I didn't switch to Axis because I thought the wings were markedly better, I switched because the attachment method was sound from an engineering standpoint and was something I could duplicate. GoFoil's socket design does not make for easy experimentation. A minor part of the reason I helped my brother buy a CA-router was so I could take advantage of his extreme competence in design and woodworking to make wooden plugs that I could turn into molds or one-off wings. While I haven't made even a single prototype wing I planned on making (welcome to ADHD-ville), I"m quite happy with the Axis system in general.

I'm not good enough to actually feel differences between wings from a performance standpoint, I liken it to feeling the difference in fins on a surfboard. You have to be well past the beginner stage to be able to feel much more than "good" vs. "bad". My comments are on the coarser characteristics of wings. 1150 -- gets up in silly light wind, turns OK, glides great. 860 -- requires a lot of speed to get up, turns like crazy, glides like a brick.

Then along came the 999 -- wow, does everything well, really well. Wait...  ...how can that be?
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: lakemichiganwingfoiler on October 14, 2021, 07:35:19 AM
I keep going back an forth on wether or not to drop gofoil and go with another brand. I have the iwa, kia, and maliko and want to upgrade at some point in time. Everything I hear everyone is switching to Axis. Gofoil looks like they are coming out with a new foil the GT version and it looks like it has impressive glide and pumpability, but if Axis is so much better, may be I should make the switch.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: deja vu on October 14, 2021, 04:17:33 PM
Here's a short video of the new Sabfoil 1110 demonstrating how it can be pumped and its glide.  How does the ART 999 compare?

https://www.instagram.com/p/CU8-F66I-yQ/
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: radair on October 15, 2021, 08:56:05 AM
I keep going back an forth on wether or not to drop gofoil and go with another brand. I have the iwa, kia, and maliko and want to upgrade at some point in time. Everything I hear everyone is switching to Axis. Gofoil looks like they are coming out with a new foil the GT version and it looks like it has impressive glide and pumpability, but if Axis is so much better, may be I should make the switch.
Axis, Lift, Armstrong, Takuma, SPG and others are making some amazing stuff right now. Apparently GoFoil is releasing new designs soon (according to the rumor mill).

Try out your friends' foils, as many as you can, before you make a major decision. It is easy to get caught up in the new release of the month. No doubt this Axis 999 is an outstanding foil but wait a few months and there might be a new king of the heap.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Foilgeoff on October 15, 2021, 11:23:33 PM
I've used my 999 3 times and my experience of it is that it feels like it has a higher take-off speed than the 880 and it overpowers a lot earlier.
My experience is so different to what I've been reading on the forums that I have to assume that it's me.

What wind ranges are people using the 999 in? Dwight mentioned that his 999 replaced his 980, 880 and 830 but I have to say that an 830 is sounding pretty appealing right now.

Today is a typical example, 12-25 knots earlier in the day so I put the 999 on, increasing to  25-35 later, lots of hills upwind so it's always gusty as hell. The PPC 3.8m  wing and 999 foil were just going bananas and shifting down to the 880 was a huge relief, never mind changing wings.

In terms of set-up, I'm an 87kg early intermediate (I can't jibe) with a 90 litre KT Wing Drifter. I live in Wellington, New Zealand, where the wind tends to be all (a lot of the time) or nothing. If you're going to have a 1-wing quiver then it will be a 4m.
The mast track on the Wing Drifter seems a long way forward. I'm running the carbon mast right at the back of the track, and all three Axis foils (1010, 999, 880) need 2 washers of shim  to reduce front end lift to get a balance between my feet. The  foot straps are on their furthest forward setting.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on October 15, 2021, 11:46:22 PM
I feel like itís efficient and gets to its max fast. Less efficient foils can be ďpushed harderĒ because they need more force to reach their limit but basically that means that you can use less pressure once youíre on foil. Thatís my theory anywayÖ I initially thought it was unstable at its max, but as Iím getting used to it I can maintain higher speeds longer.

I was told by the axis guys that if I wanted faster and better turning to go with the hps 830. I would imagine the glide and pump and efficiency are the trade offs. I think the 10AR wings make sense at this size and lower, above it the maneuverability suffers due to the wingspan. I.e the Armstrong 1125 vs 925 and folks preferring the smaller one for general riding.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 16, 2021, 03:10:03 AM

My experience is so different to what I've been reading on the forums that I have to assume that it's me.


Difficult to know. Sounds like your gear is tuned less than perfect. It gets more important, as we go higher performance.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: daswusup on October 16, 2021, 07:47:02 AM
I rode the 999 in marginal wind for on its maiden voyage and had trouble "getting it up". Its a strange and beautiful beast. It immediately got easier once I had decent wind and figured out how to get it up in lighter wind. I don't even really pump the hand wing much. I just know how much pull I need in the wing which translates to board speed which results in liftoff. Foilgeoff, it sounds to me like you are jumping the gun a bit by trying to fly the 999 in shitty wind before you have mastered the gybe. It certainly will not make your learning curve easier. I tell people to stay on slow and lifty foils until you can gybe both ways and ride toeside. I would stick with that 1010 until you have checked those boxes. You will then appreciate all the 999 has.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on October 16, 2021, 10:10:08 AM
I think the characteristics of the 999 are more stabilizer-dependent than any other wing I've tried. I could very well be wrong, it might just be that my tiny quiver of stabilizers has been the reason I find some wings very hard or unsatisfying to use.

With a 400 stabilizer, the 999 is not easy to get up. I need a lot of board speed, some solid wind, and patience to take off. There's no point in pumping, I need to feel enough pull on the hand wing to get the board up to a steady, fairly high speed, and then I can lift off--gently, smoothly, with no popping up or it stalls and falls. Once I'm up it's fast, smooth, and forgiving, though if you turn it hard enough to pop a tip out it does some funny stuff--like shuddering and twitching. If I drop below some speed I haven't precisely determined yet it falls with a splat.

With a 390 or 340 stabilizer, I can push it in lighter wind. Pumping the wing and board works fine, it tolerates popping up and almost never stalls. Once it's up it's medium fast but I can feel the braking effect, turns really well, tolerates breaching or popping a wingtip well out of the water without doing anything silly, and coasts down to the surface slowly when the speed gets too low.

It's literally a completely different wing. Not just a little bit. The characteristics are diametrically the opposite with the single exception of gliding endlessly until it hits stall speed. I don't think you need to be an advanced intermediate foiler to use and enjoy it--I'm not. I feel like I'm a perpetual intermediate, and I can't get enough of the thing.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Foilgeoff on October 16, 2021, 10:17:42 AM
Thanks guys, thatís all very helpful. I should have mentioned that I have a 420HA rear.
Cheers
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: jondrums on October 16, 2021, 10:25:24 AM
Did we decide what the perfect tail for the 999 is?
I'm running the KDMaui 13.5" at about 3.5deg up and I've been happy.  Hard to say if there might be a better setup
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: bigmtn on October 16, 2021, 11:26:03 AM
I've been using the kd tail with no shims, been super happy, but wouldn't mind a smaller tail to make it feel a little looser. Using an ultrashort, and will prob try a crazy short.  Had it out in 20-30 wind with double overhead swell last weekend, and it performed great, so long as the swell didn't get too steep. It's my favorite setup for just riding bumps going downwind.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on October 16, 2021, 07:53:15 PM
If any of you folks have a 390 to try, please do and tell me I'm crazy.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: SUPeter on October 17, 2021, 04:42:09 AM
Still waiting on my ART 999 to come in but while waiting I was able to get out on the HPS 1050. Wow!  First time on an Axis rig.  The whole set up seems very well put together with very little in the way of form drag.  Using the 1050/420 was such a step up in performance, I sit here wondering how much more of a performance step up the 999 will be.  Being able to hold an enormous amount speed and glide as  I carved into 20-25 kt headwind made on and offside tacks casual and leisurely.  So much more time to get things done.  This 1050 will be a perfect compliment to a high end performer like a 999.  I was just wondering if the 999 will be a good SUP foil.  I know the 1050 will slay. Any body out there SUPing the 999?
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on October 17, 2021, 07:35:37 AM
With my moderate skills, I can get the 999 up to speed, flag out the wing behind me, and tack successfully, having an almost unconscionably long time to finish the maneuver. I've even over-tacked it, winding up in a broad reach before I get the wing pulling again. I start at the upper limit of height with a 90CM mast, with the wing gurgling, and finish with quite a bit of altitude and speed remaining.

I haven't tried the 1050, but with the 1150 I absolutely can't do that. I'm down in the water before I even get across the eye of the wind. Even powered-up tacks, pulling the wing over my head, are almost impossible with the 1150 for me and dead easy with the 999. It glides at least twice as far.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Califoilia on October 17, 2021, 08:54:09 AM
Any body out there SUPing the 999?

Yeah, it was fun, but one must limit their expectations somewhat on a couple fronts. Can't wait until something shorter in the same shape comes out...if the rumor mill is true that is.  ;) :D

Tried to link to the below, but kept going to some other unrelated page, so here's from a few weeks back...

So myself, and our new Sano young gun tried the ART 999 in the surf this past week, and we both came to the same conclusion(s)...

1.) It has great initial lift, so much so that this is the first wing that I've ever had to push the mast back 3/4" (might even move it back more on the next session just to see).
2.) Pumps really well as might be expected, but you have to keep the speed up, because in the surf, it seems to have a much higher stall speed than I've heard others with windwings talk about...to the point that on the sup, I actually had to keep pumping it down the line once the wave died down a bit. This is something that I haven't really found the need to do with all the other lower - relatively speaking - aspect wings.
3.) As far as turning goes, you can make a longer, more drawn out turn with it, but trying to really surf it top to bottom...the wide wing span makes it a little difficult to transition top to bottom in comparison to some of the more "surfy", smaller Axis wings (BCS 810, PNG 850, or even the HPS 880) on a sup.

https://youtu.be/lxZT2-2hlbA

Final thoughts: I can see it as a great windwing wing for its great initial lift, and winging in 10-12+ mph winds will eliminate any of the higher stall speed issues we felt in the slower surf. If you do want to use it as a one wing quiver to wing and surf...when surfing it, just don't attempt to really throw it around, but surf it with longer turns in mind, and then just go and pump it back out forever... 👍🏽👊🏽😃
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Beasho on October 18, 2021, 06:13:16 PM
My 999 should be arriving this week.

Meanwhile on Seabreeze KDMaui (Kane Dewald) had this to say about the Armstrong 725, but then busted into a rave review of the Axis 999:

-----------------------
https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/Armstrong-HA725?page=1
-----------------------
Here's a more detailed take. short version is its amazing that wings like this are available as production foils! The wings are basically what we've had for windsurf foiling forever but with the fuselage and mast geometry adjusted for much better riding with a wing or surfing. Im continually amazed at how many intermediate riders can ride these and it opens up a world of possibilities!

Make sure you use at least a -0.5 shim with 232v2/A+ 72 mast/60 fuse. I needed -1.5 with the V200 on the same setup.
I strongly recommend -1.5 on the 85 mast and -2 with 1125 on 85 mast. 85/60 and v tail might need -2.5.

70 fuse should massively reduce the needed shimming and in my experience is so much better for winging! It's also worth a shot surf foiling but I suspect the 60 is much better. Never liked the 50 much winging or surfing, though it could be sick with a big tail!

Otherwise these wings are amazing for winging! The glide, speed, jumping, and upwind performance are top of their class! They really do fly great! The big sizes take amazingly little power to stay on foil and the small sizes are little rockets. that video speaks for itself, you can see how fast and stable it is.

You can find the shim files on my site, Armstrong only offers + shims as far as I'm aware. I'll be updating my tail offerings to account for this and include shims for different front wings and mast lengths soon!

Also tried the 999/ultrashort/400/85 Alu and oh man was that fun! So dialed- easy takeoff, great glide and pump, surprisingly had decent top end and turning too! spent most of the time riding sitting down and even started making tacks without having to stand up! downwind is almost effortless and a good rider can ride without pumping at all. That wing definitely punches above its class.

If you buy, make sure you use the aluminum mast to get the best results. For Maui conditions its probably a rider's second foil after learning.


Another ride yesterday was the Lift 120 with FoilParts adapter and my 11.5" on long position. That setup just rides beautifully- The speed is between the 999 and 725, but closer to the 999. Pumping is at least as good as the 725, just happens at a lower speed making it easier to keep on foil. Talking about low speed, takeoff and tacking are easy too! The turning is actually amazing flat out, not just for a high aspect. It felt like playing with a toy. This is probably the most fun surf foil unless the waves are minuscule and you need a Kujira 1210 or something! Other stuff has a higher surf performance ceiling but this foil is probably more fun for more people. According to the feedback I have recieved, you need the 11.5" to get it to this level but of course that feedback and I are biased.

Might be time for some Youtube reviews . Soon I'll test the Gofoil RS, other Armstrong HA, Cabrinha, and some other good stuff too!
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: headmount on October 18, 2021, 11:57:49 PM
I've been winging with the 999 recently and have some questions.   I've had some great runs but also that bucking bronco deal.  I had moved my mast forward from the 2.5 inch mark to the 3.5 mark.  Why, because when I lifted it upside down on land from that point just back from the leading edge of the front foil, 3.5 was where it balanced out.  But that was an extreme bronco ride.  SO I return mast back to 2.5 mark, which is where it was rock steady previously with the 1010.  Better with some good runs but still some bucking.  What's causing that??

I also tried placing wing and board leash on my new harness but went back to putting board leash on ankle. But it was nice having wing leash on harness.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: bigmtn on October 19, 2021, 12:20:36 AM
Tail? Shim? Fuse length?
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: flkiter on October 19, 2021, 04:07:36 AM
Try riding the 999 all the way in the rear of the track. I ride all my other foils way forward but the 999 is special and likes to be far back.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 19, 2021, 04:10:02 AM
I've had some great runs but also that bucking bronco deal.

Imagine youíre flying this.
(https://airbus-h.assetsadobe2.com/is/image/content/dam/corporate-topics/innovation/perlan/Airbus-Perlan-Mission-II-surpasses-U-2-01.jpg)

Not a stunt plane. Radical pitch changes bad. I donít use a super short fuse. Speed and L/D is your goal in life.

Lowest drag tail stabilizer possible. Minimize pitch changes to maximize L/D. The reward is effortless glide and speed.

If using a stabilizer designed for normal front wings, you throw the whole kit out of maximum efficiency. My kit, never, ever surges. The most unlimited, neutral trimmed setup, at any speed, Iíve ever ridden.

Back of tracks for me. Middle of tracks for older chunky foils.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on October 19, 2021, 07:24:45 AM
I've never experienced that with the 999, but I use the short fuselage (which is pretty long) and a 390 or 400. I shim both to 3 degrees total incidence as is my more or less standard practice.

Moving the foil around in the tracks can change a lot of things, depending on your board. If the board is flat bottomed, all you're really changing is the relationship of the weight carried by the foil to the foil position. You can compensate for this by changing your position on the board if you're strapless, but strapped--even just a front strap--means you're doing other stuff to compensate, like leaning forward, or moving your back foot forward, both of which screw with pitch stability. If your board is not flat bottomed moving the foil in the tracks can change the total foil incidence angle relative to the board. For example, if your board has tail rocker, moving the foil back increases the negative incidence relative to the board--your wing will point down when the board is floating on the surface and to ride with the foil in a neutral position the board has to be nose-up

Don't treat Kane's idea about balancing the board upside down as gospel. It's mostly just a simplified way to position the center of lift at the center of buoyancy. But it's not precise.

I use a waist board leash and wrist wing leash. I think I'll probably switch to both on the waist when I get back to Maui. I don't like the "being ripped apart by chariots" effect of two leashes attached to separate appendages in surf. The only problem I have with a wing leash on the waist is that I'm pretty good at wrapping the leash around my neck.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: jondrums on October 19, 2021, 09:19:45 AM
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/spo/d/berkeley-axis-art-999-foil-wing/7396036861.html
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Califoilia on October 19, 2021, 09:26:11 AM
Try riding the 999 all the way in the rear of the track. I ride all my other foils way forward but the 999 is special and likes to be far back.
^^^ This ^^^

I ride all of my wings in the exact same spot (all the way forward)...with the exception of the 999! First time out in the "regular" spot in the boxes I could barely kept the nose down on takeoff, and just ditched it over the wave thinking I'd just pump out on it. Nope, once over the wave I still couldn't push the nose down to start pumping, and it eventually just stalled and stopped.

Went in, moved it back, and while better, still wanted to climb out of the water in a couple more attempts. Moved it all the way back in the boxes, and it became a super fun surf setup...sans the longer turns due to the almost 1 meter width of the wing.

So this wing needs to be ridden much further back than your other wings, and really much further back than you'd ever expect it to be able to work in that position. Apparently some sort of voodoo magic engineered into it. Lol... ;D
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Califoilia on October 19, 2021, 09:48:04 AM
Don't treat Kane's idea about balancing the board upside down as gospel. It's mostly just a simplified way to position the center of lift at the center of buoyancy. But it's not precise.
^^^ This also ^^^

Kane's idea is a good place to start with a new board when unsure of placement, but as stated above, certainly not the gospel, precise, or perfect.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dontsink on October 19, 2021, 10:33:43 AM
Don't treat Kane's idea about balancing the board upside down as gospel. It's mostly just a simplified way to position the center of lift at the center of buoyancy. But it's not precise.
^^^ This also ^^^

Kane's idea is a good place to start with a new board when unsure of placement, but as stated above, certainly not the gospel, precise, or perfect.

I think the key part about KD positioning is putiting the center of lift under the center of mass of the board (which is going to be close to the c of buoyancy)

Because the goal IMO  is to minimize pitch inertia and make the board more responsive overall and close to neutral when you  load the foil in a carve.

But every foil is different,so whatever works.

Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: bigmtn on October 19, 2021, 04:31:35 PM
I have mine just as far forward as my other wings, both prone and winging (3 different boards), no issues.
ultrashort, kane tail, no shims
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: jondrums on October 19, 2021, 04:58:30 PM
When I look at the 999 and black fuselage, it looks like the wing is hanging out further forward of the mast than my other foils.  I assume this is why we all have to slide it back in the boxes a bit. 
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: soepkip on October 19, 2021, 10:48:52 PM
kdmaui says If you buy, make sure you use the aluminum mast to get the best results

I wonder how stiff the Axis v2 carbon mast is compared to the Armstrong and the lift carbon masts.
And also how stiff it is compared to the Axis v1 carbon mast?

The Armstrong 725 and Lift 120  are not as wide as the Axis 999:
According to the Lift website the Lift 120 is 775 cm^2 and has an AR of 10.2 :
wingspan^2=10.2*775
This gives a wingspan of 88,9 cm
I suppose the Armstrong 725 has a wingspan close to the Lift 120
Will 10 cm less wingspan make these two wings not need a stiff mast like the Axis alu mast?

And will the Axis v2 carbon mast be better with for instance the HPS 830 because of its smaller wingspan?
Or is the weight of the rider the only factor to consider when deciding between the carbon and the alu mast?
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Velasco on October 20, 2021, 02:19:35 AM
Are these backordered on the Axis website?  I placed an order for one last week and I haven't heard a peep - I'm guessing it is backordered, but there is nothing on the site to indicate that as the current state.

And while I'm at it - what rear stabilizers is everyone using (previous posts have the 380, the 420 and the 400HA being the favorites.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 20, 2021, 03:29:45 AM
kdmaui says If you buy, make sure you use the aluminum mast to get the best results

I wonder how stiff the Axis v2 carbon mast is compared to the Armstrong and the lift carbon masts.
And also how stiff it is compared to the Axis v1 carbon mast?


Axis carbon is stiffer than Armstrong and Lift masts. Thatís why Axis is heavier.

As to why Kane did not recommended aluminum for Armstrong or Lift.  Whatís he going to say, donít ride those brands because they donít offer aluminum.

As to what mast to use with AxisÖ.itís personal taste in the FEEL of the ride. Aluminum is stiff, dead, direct. Carbon feels alive and springs back at you when carving.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Mario_Wings on October 20, 2021, 03:56:43 AM

OK, now I understand all the hype. . . . tried a mates ART999 today.

Once up, it has so little drag that you hardly feel any pressure on your feet. No increase in pressure at speed either. Excellent to windward and carves a turn really nice and stable Ö fast gybes are a no brainer. Was surprised by how pitch stable it is, changing feet is simple.

It felt comfortable right from when the board came up on the foil. Am impressed.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: SUPeter on October 20, 2021, 04:14:04 AM
Are these backordered on the Axis website?  I placed an order for one last week and I haven't heard a peep - I'm guessing it is backordered, but there is nothing on the site to indicate that as the current state.

And while I'm at it - what rear stabilizers is everyone using (previous posts have the 380, the 420 and the 400HA being the favorites.


Yes, ART 999 are backordered but it took very little time to get one shipped.  This was last week.  With all the hype, this may have changed.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 20, 2021, 06:53:42 AM
I was doing the Johnny Heineken wing spin jibes yesterday. They really help the jibe when riding 999.

We just have so much speed in the jibe with the 999, convention wing handling applies the brakes a little. Johnnys method avoids this.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Beasho on October 20, 2021, 09:18:39 AM
Got my Axis 999.  Call up Axis headquarters in Vallejo California and they will ship it quickly.  I ordered and received within 1 week.  Next up - Testing.  However I might be missing a screw or two.

Any recommendation on using the Hex provided vs. just going with Stainless Phillips? 

Also note:  All the appendages are quite heavy.  The base mount, the doohicky into fuselage, the Aluminum fuselage is heavy.  Maybe I will not care. 

Contact: Phone: 415-924-9463, Email: info@live2kite.com, Hours: Mon-Friday 9am-6pm, Saturday Closed, Sunday Closed
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Califoilia on October 20, 2021, 11:32:01 AM
Got my Axis 999.  Call up Axis headquarters in Vallejo California and they will ship it quickly.  I ordered and received within 1 week.  Next up - Testing.  However I might be missing a screw or two.

Any recommendation on using the Hex provided vs. just going with Stainless Phillips? 

Also note:  All the appendages are quite heavy.  The base mount, the doohicky into fuselage, the Aluminum fuselage is heavy.  Maybe I will not care. 

Contact: Phone: 415-924-9463, Email: info@live2kite.com, Hours: Mon-Friday 9am-6pm, Saturday Closed, Sunday Closed
Did I miss it, but what tail did you get for that setup?

As far as the Torx provided, hex, or Phillips...as long as you have the correct size and thread, the top is more just personal preference, and you'll get arguments for and against all of them.

I just happen to use stainless hex/Allen heads in my stuff, simply because that's what my local hardware store carries, and it makes getting new or replacement stuff on the way to or from the beach simple and easy.

Wrt to weight. Yes, the all aluminum mast, fuse, baseplate, and Doodad are obviously noticeable different weight wise on the beach compared to some of the other all carbon foils out there. But once in the water, you don't really notice the weight, but definitely notice just how much stiffer they are than all of the rest of the foil brands on the market.

This stiffness translates into instant response and feedback when turning and/or pumping compared to the flexiness and sloppiness of most/many carbon masts (sans maybe the Cedrus mast that I hear is "just as solid", but have not myself ridden to definitively say so or not ) where you can definitely feel the board move before the wing does in most cases with the carbon masts.

So I too was skeptical of the weight, and poo-pooed Axis for a long time before finally giving in to see what all the fuss was about, and have been hooked ever since. And while I do have an Axis carbon mast at my disposal and like it a lot...recently I'm finding myself still going back to the aluminum, and getting the sense that I'm squeezing just a little more all-around performance out of it compared to the carbon one.

But then again, that could all just be in my head, because I do have some crazy thoughts and feelings living up there on occasion, and it sometimes gets hard to know which one of me is actually riding on any particular day, and liking or hating what.  :o :-[ ;D
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on October 20, 2021, 07:07:58 PM
Yeah, any screw is fine as long as it's the right diameter, length, and pitch. The two little screws up from are fairly short. the size and length of each is printed on the foil. Just make sure you use anti-seize, preferably TefGel.

Most of the aluminum masts in use are 15mm, and they are ridiculously flexy. The newest GoFoil masts are very stiff carbon but a lot of the carbon masts I've given a little twist to are pretty soft. I have two older Axis carbon masts and they are noticeably more flexy than the aluminum 19mm. Even the 16mm Axis aluminum mast is much stouter than the competing 15mm.

Most of the weight is in the mast and attachments of course. The wing, fuselage and stabilizer will float without the mast. With the mast, they go straight to the bottom. I know this for sure. No, I didn't lose anything, but it wasn't for lack of trying.

Project Cedrus is actually how these things should be made. As a hollow box, structurally sound on it's own, with the leading and trailing edges attached as non-structural, aero elements. The same way airplane wings are made. They are fairly thick, strong as hell and fairly light. Not cheap. The 19mm Axis aluminum masts are not ideal in many ways, but they are super stiff, strong, and cheap. You pays yer money and you takes yer choice.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Solent Foiler on October 22, 2021, 09:13:49 AM
First ride report:

999 finally arrived this morning, with 82/US/380 tail, and built it up with the shim included. Conditions were about perfect to make my first assessment - in other words, less than perfect but just good enough. Fickle 10 knots gusting to 14-15 occasionally, and quite a bit of cross chop from a sea wall just upwind.

Having read the advice on here, I slammed the mast right back on my Lethal 4'6, and hoped for the best. Getting going needed about the same breeze as my current daily driver, the Gong Fluid LS, which has about the same area and volume, but only 76cm width. As others have said, it's very much a runway take off, needing a gentle front foot - I can be more aggressive with the LS.

Once up, the mast felt like it was in the right place, thankfully not needing an immediate U-turn to adjust. The speed was very familiar to the LS, but the US fuse made itself felt - I wouldn't call it unstable, but definitely sensitive/reactive. Nothing that concerns me at this stage, but will hold judgement until I get it out in more breeze and bigger chop. I normally ride an 85 mast, but the 82 felt shorter than the nominal 3cm difference - almost certainly due to the US fuse, and/or that I was being too careful to keep the long tips under the water.

It goes upwind really really well, and could be imagining it but almost made my Slick feel better - the logic part of my brain would say it's generating more apparent wind by having better upwind angles, but can't prove that one way or the other.

It has very good roll stability, which is a double edged thing. I missed not being able to turn it on a penny, and I was glad of my footstraps to help muscle it about a bit (I'm light, 65kg). I've got a Progressive 400 tail on pre order, so will be looking for that to loosen it up a bit, as an option.

And now onto the main event - the glide! On and on and on... The initial acceleration when you point it downwind was familiar from the LS, but where the LS starts to slow and you need to power up again, the 999 just carries on. It did take me by surprise a little so got a bit out of shape. I didn't really have time to work out a good pump technique, but I'm looking forward to sorting that out.

The transitions felt like my Fluid XXL-S (1750cm2, 96 wide, 2 litre vol) so a slower roll into them, with a cruise through without any concerns of stalling or running out of speed.

The session was cut short as the wind dropped and the tide started to ebb downwind. I tried really hard not to set too high expectations, so it kinda performed as I hoped. The biggest unknown for me was the roll stability, and it's about as I would have guessed - so about the same as my big foil (alternative tail pending!). It doesn't change the game for me, but it's too early to say that I won't love it. I just need some more time to get dialed into it, and work out how to use that amazing glide and efficiency most effectively and what doors it will open... Looking forward to a day of proper downwinding!
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on October 22, 2021, 08:23:52 PM
Yup, it's all about the glide. It takes some getting used to--I'm not really there yet. I haven't yet made a landing on returning to shore where I didn't panic and have to U-turn, bail, throw myself off and pull on the leash, whatever to keep from running hard aground. Just dropping the wing isn't enough, it keeps going.

The other thing that I find very cool with less efficient stabilizers is the ability to just run straight over big swells and never worry about overfoiling. I don't know why that works, it will be interesting to hear how this is with the 380.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Beasho on October 23, 2021, 09:59:33 AM
Is there a clean picture of all these tails anywhere ?

I got the 420 because Lenny said it was ďthe oneĒ. 

I could drill out my GoFoil tail too and attach it which is nice and flat.  The 18 narrow. 
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: supnorte on October 23, 2021, 10:57:36 AM
No wind or waves to big to try the ART999 for the first time. No problem, there's always a dock: www.facebook.com/axisfoilsportugal/videos/595600128231792
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Hdip on October 23, 2021, 11:18:12 AM
Is there a clean picture of all these tails anywhere ?

https://axisfoils.com/collections/rear-wings
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Hdip on October 23, 2021, 11:18:34 PM
The one you have is most surely the one you want. Itís the newest high aspect 400 tail. Possibly youíd like the 460. Which is very similar, just wider. The old 400 is old and thick.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Foilgeoff on October 23, 2021, 11:57:41 PM
Thanks for the catalogue link, Bill, it also gave me a pointer as to my difficulties getting to grips with the 999. It lists the 999 as being suited for 4.8-6m wing sizes for an 80kg rider, with the 830, 880 and 930 more suited for wing sizes below that.
Iím an 87kg intermediate and itís just been scary as hell in my three sessions so far in gusty conditions eg today was a 5m day that quickly became a 3.8m day and I could easily have used a 2.8m in between the lulls.   Changing back to the 880 was a lifesaver.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: daswusup on October 24, 2021, 07:13:40 AM
The pic that Pono posted of tails needs more mentioning, specifically all those new "progressive " tails. I clicked on the catalogue link and the tails vanished??? When are these coming to market? Dwight probably has all of them already. Spill the beans! I wish they showed profile pics. The bird's eye only tells part of the story.

I am pretty stoked on the 380 with the 999. I think that tails could have a pronounced effect on the 999. I want a super thin, 500ish with a chord around 40 for ultimate glide and pump. I'm officially declaring myself part of the Axis Research Team. Boom
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: 805StandUp on October 24, 2021, 07:58:24 AM
I could be wrong but the description of the progressive tail sounds a lot like the KD's or maybe inspired by KDMaui tails... will be interesting to see them when they come out.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Hdip on October 24, 2021, 08:53:42 AM
Oh I opened the picture and now see the new progressive lineup. Theyíre all still to wide. When will axis make something for prone riders who want to aggressively surf? It seems theyíre purposely chasing the intermediate market which I donít understand.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on October 24, 2021, 08:58:55 AM
Thanks for the catalogue link, Bill, it also gave me a pointer as to my difficulties getting to grips with the 999. It lists the 999 as being suited for 4.8-6m wing sizes for an 80kg rider, with the 830, 880 and 930 more suited for wing sizes below that.
Iím an 87kg intermediate and itís just been scary as hell in my three sessions so far in gusty conditions eg today was a 5m day that quickly became a 3.8m day and I could easily have used a 2.8m in between the lulls.   Changing back to the 880 was a lifesaver.

I understand the issue. I'm 102kg and in high wind, I've found the 999 to be initially very spooky. I know the speed freaks will moan about this, but that's another reason the 390 tail works well for me--training wheels with brakes. Going straight downwind with a 2.8 wing doing its best to get away from me the sheer fun of running over hefty swells like railroad ties with no drama from the foil at all is just incredible. I did the same with the 400 and was probably going somewhere close to twice as fast. There was a lot more drama, but what a rush. I was getting to the point that I can manage the 400 and do some blistering upwind/downwind runs without incident though yeah, it remains pretty scary. Unfortunately, it's cold as hell in Hood River and I'm being a big sissy, preferring to work on projects in my shop rather than go out and play in the cold and rain in a full suit with a hood. My gear is packed for Maui. More silliness soon.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: headmount on October 24, 2021, 09:31:49 PM
Did we decide what the perfect tail for the 999 is?
I'm running the KDMaui 13.5" at about 3.5deg up and I've been happy.  Hard to say if there might be a better setup

So when you say 3.5 degree up, do you mean you're lifting the leading edge of the rear wing up 3.5 degrees?
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: headmount on October 27, 2021, 10:33:07 AM
I watched our Axis dealer here on Maui, Mark, rip little bumps inside the harbor with his 999.  It appeared remarkably loose.  Wind was light.  Too light for me to lift but Mark had a very energetic pump and could get is 170 pounds up and flying. 
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 27, 2021, 10:35:46 AM
We finally reached the point where we can openly talk about the Progressive tails. They do in fact look a bit like Kane tails. But personally owning a Kane tail (the one he makes to fit Axis), I can say itís quite a bit different. You can literally feel the difference in foil section between the Progressive and a Kane. My Kane has reflex in the foil section. The Axis does not. I have no experience with his new slim series.

The Progressive is the lowest drag, and fastest tail, I have ever felt under my feet. Never have I owned a tail that could totally eliminate hobby horsing at ALL speeds and ALL wave conditions. Zero, nada, power surges with any of my HPS foils, or ART. Yet it still powers up any foil I own, at 10 knots with perfect power and foot balance, all the way to 30 knots. Mine is the 400. I have been riding that one 400 with everything from the 830 to 1050 to 999. Same with Jacky at 116 lbs. She does plan to try the 350 and 375 soon. We only had 400 prototypes to provide feedback on.

So for everyone wondering what we were using with the ART-999 in all those videos and reviews, now we can say. It was the Progressive tails. They are the perfect tails for the ART. They complement, and further reduce drag, to let the ART do itís magic better. Plus they really help it jibe and surf better.






Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: SUPeter on October 27, 2021, 11:15:34 AM
Just finished 2 good sessions on the 999.
First session. 15-25 kt downwinder.
Just bolted the foil on and went.  no need to change mast position or shimming in any way. Very predictable flight immediately.  A touch more sensitive to input but overall very forgiving.  Noticeably less drag and likes to glide a long ways before it stalls. low speed was quite good and never once fell off foil due to decreased speed.  High end speed is truly amazing and I don't know if I will ever find its limit.  20 mph was my top speed.  No matter how fast it went, control was never an issue and front foot pressure was minimally increased.  Very easy side to side roll. turns on a dime.  Tacks were either the normal long drawn out arcs or, if I desired, a very heavily angled, snappy turn. That was something I  had never experienced before,  on any other foil.  Pumping was expectedly good but will need more experience with to figure out its rhythm.  Upwind ability is very good. Maintains great speed.  Really loves gliding down wave faces and usually right up and over the wave in front of you.  easily controlled at very high speeds.  This will be a great wave winging foil.

2nd session- 15-25 kts in relative flatwater.  Does all the usual maneuvers with ease (tacks,both sides, 360s, jibes,).  I still need to get a feel for it on heel to toeside tacks.  Some felt so easy, others not so much.   Feels a bit different than I'm accustomed to.  I know someone has mentioned its ability to handle tip breaches easily.  I did not find this to be the case.  Tip breaches created a significant wobble which would usually bring me down to the surface.  I have some video of full aeration during a tip breach.  I was hoping this was not the case as my last wing performs well with the tips out.   360s felt easier than ever as this foil just glides and maintains speed for ever.  It also reaches wind speed faster which means a quicker transition to inverted wing.

Im sure this foil will be used far more than my other foils in winds from 15 kts and above.   Itll probably go even lower than 15 kts but the 1050 is so much fun , why would I?
Great foil overall and Im only just at the very beginning of learning it potential.

I have a youtube video but cant remember how to post it here.  Any advice?
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Solent Foiler on October 28, 2021, 03:33:12 AM
We finally reached the point where we can openly talk about the Progressive tails...

Great! I initially had the 400 on pre-order to use with the 999 but changed it to the 375 having used the 380 and wanting more manoeuvrability. Can you comment on whether I'll feel a big difference between the 380 and 375?
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 28, 2021, 03:38:30 AM
Can you comment on whether I'll feel a big difference between the 380 and 375?

Youíll feel the difference jibing right away. Youíll roll into and out of the jibe more fluid, with more speed on exit.

Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: headmount on October 28, 2021, 03:26:31 PM

 Never have I owned a tail that could totally eliminate hobby horsing at ALL speeds and ALL wave conditions.

Could you please describe 'hobby horsing' ?  I search this forum and the only reference to this term has been yours.  And thanks BTW for your extensive help on this thread and others. 
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Beasho on October 28, 2021, 04:09:12 PM
Could you please describe 'hobby horsing' ?  I search this forum and the only reference to this term has been yours.  And thanks BTW for your extensive help on this thread and others.

I have only 1 session on the 999 but experienced the 'Hobby Horse'.  With the higher aspect foils you need sustained speed to fly.  I was in WAY-WAY overpowered conditions, blowing 30 mph gusting to 40 mph, with a 5.0.  I figured flying would be easy.  I would sheet in and pitch up and start flying. 

BUT these foils are extremely sensitive to higher angles of attack, at low speed, and I would crash back down.  This happened over and over.  Up then smack down then Up and Smack down.  I eventually realized I had to very gradually lift the nose and let the speed increase gently. 

Then I could fly without the smack-down.  Once I was up and foiling there were not any smack-down incidents. 

A flat tail board and better technique may fix this.  Also note I bought the X-tra short fuselage which probably added insult to my poor technique. 
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 28, 2021, 05:05:17 PM


BUT these foils are extremely sensitive to higher angles of attack, at low speed, and I would crash back down.  This happened over and over.  Up then smack down then Up and Smack down.  I eventually realized I had to very gradually lift the nose and let the speed increase gently. 



Haha, now you know why we all switched to planing bottoms. Just leave the board on the water, let it plane, then rise slowly. No need to pump the board, just a tiny wiggle pump if you do one.


This is not the hobby horse though. The hobby horse is when you are pushing a slow high lift foil beyond what it likes. Kane talks about a foils efficiency speed. Beyond that speed, it fights you. Pulsing surges. Too much lift from the front wing, too much lift from the rear wing. Flying at the foils max efficiency speed it will cruise under the surface in perfect balance. Expanding the efficiency range is the wholly grail.

My 116 pound wife suffered hobby horsing on nearly every foil. Only in the last year she finally got foils thin enough to ride smooth, easy, and fast.

If you ride slow, youíll never feel it. But who wants to ride slow. haha.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: daswusup on October 28, 2021, 05:55:23 PM
We finally reached the point where we can openly talk about the Progressive tails...

Great! I initially had the 400 on pre-order to use with the 999 but changed it to the 375 having used the 380 and wanting more manoeuvrability. Can you comment on whether I'll feel a big difference between the 380 and 375?

Funny! I did the exact thing. Ordered the 400 last night and then freaked out for 12 hours thinking I needed the 375. I requested to change and the nice folks at Axis sent me a $2 refund. Yes, $2 is the price difference in the 400 to the 375. Anyway, I am hoping for better sleep tonight. It is shipped and I am committed. I am a little sad because the shopping phase was short. I miss the shopping phase already. Its arguably just as fun as the foiling part. The reckless purchase of another foil part is exhilarating though....Anyone else suffer from this? Axis sells crack to us. The way they have my cc keyed in and its like 2 clicks and mine.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: SUPeter on October 29, 2021, 06:00:34 AM
Complete surprise.  The 999 will pump up onto foil in 10-12 knots.  Its not easy but pumping both board and wing increase speed quite nicely until your are getting some air.  This could be a heavily used foil.  Makes wave riding a dream.  I wish I would have used it for the SUP foiling session later that day.  I through   the 1050 on regretted it.  It felt so SLOW ! 
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: jondrums on October 29, 2021, 10:45:58 AM
I'm fingering the buy button on the 350 progressive tail for the 999 on my short fuse
Currently riding the Kane 13.5" tail and it seems like plenty of tail for pumping

Seems like a lot of people talking about the 400 progressive - what's to do?
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 29, 2021, 01:46:44 PM
I'm fingering the buy button on the 350 progressive tail for the 999 on my short fuse
Currently riding the Kane 13.5" tail and it seems like plenty of tail for pumping

Seems like a lot of people talking about the 400 progressive - what's to do?

My buddy Ryan winged with Jackyís 350 today and his 810.  His normal tail is the 13.5 Kane. I also have that Kane tail. Ryan loved the 350. Heís ordering one. My feeling is the roll rate of the Progressive 375 is similar to the Kane, with more speed than the Kane, plus snappier response. You feel the difference carbon makes over G-10. G-10 is a dampened response.

Adrian recommended the 375 with the 999 on Facebook. I agree after trying the 375.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: jondrums on October 29, 2021, 03:59:24 PM
nice, thank you so much.  I like smaller tails on longer fuse so that reaffirms my desire for the 350 on the "short" fuse. (I assume you like the 375 on the ultra-short).
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 29, 2021, 04:32:52 PM
nice, thank you so much.  I like smaller tails on longer fuse so that reaffirms my desire for the 350 on the "short" fuse. (I assume you like the 375 on the ultra-short).

Iím on the short fuse.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: WingTime on October 30, 2021, 06:46:33 PM
OK so the 999 foil is blowing my mind .
I canít believe how low the low end is,  and I have it back in the box at number 3 on my Armstrong FG board.  Getting up on foil even in 15 mph wind is much easier than I anticipated even at 100kg.
I tried the 390 tail which was fun but  felt restrictive . Then I tried the 420 and 460 which are super fast but not as forgiving. Then Dwight let me try his 400 progressive , wow the best of everything, definitely ordering one. Cruising through gybes with ease and no over foiling. Definitely going to be a go to setup, canít wait to get it in the waves.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: SUPeter on November 02, 2021, 07:24:33 AM
Just could not decide between the 400P or the 375P.  I ordered the 400P and just figured I could chop it, if and when I felt the need. I hoping it will improve both the HPS1050 and the ART999.  Time to start converting some of my foils to this new rig so I can make some honest comparisons.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 02, 2021, 09:13:03 AM
Just could not decide between the 400P or the 375P.  I ordered the 400P and just figured I could chop it, if and when I felt the need. I hoping it will improve both the HPS1050 and the ART999.  Time to start converting some of my foils to this new rig so I can make some honest comparisons.

Heard Kane loved the 400P with the 999.

Donít chop it. It wonít jibe the same.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: cnski on November 02, 2021, 09:15:15 AM
Dwight- 245 lbs riding the 999 with the 420 currently. 425 progressive tail for me?
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 02, 2021, 09:57:59 AM
Dwight- 245 lbs riding the 999 with the 420 currently. 425 progressive tail for me?

Sounds right to me. Hard to know for sure when I donít weigh the same.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on November 03, 2021, 10:07:03 AM
I talked with Kane briefly when I was sup foiling at Kahalui Harbor (or I should say "attempting to sup foil". Focusing exclusively on wingfoiling has completely screwed my SUP foiling). He was prone foiling with his usual consummate skill. Made me feel 500 years old and weak as a kitten. He had a prototype tail that looked very interesting--low aspect and an extended chord. It hummed like crazy, but it looked like it turned on a dime. 
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: jondrums on November 03, 2021, 07:48:59 PM
The 350 progressive showed up last night

So of course I immediately screwed it on and went out on a perfect head high morning with a long paddle out to the reef.  I knew I would be sorry I changed out tails on a day with great waves and no easy way to go back and forth for shims. 

I'll say this - it does NOT have nearly enough downforce to make the 999 ride well out of the box.  Doesn't want to rise up and then doesn't turn right. It'll need some shimming.  But the size looks perfect - I was really enjoying the KDMaui 13.5" and its just about the same size, so I guess when I get the angle dialed in it will be sweet.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on November 03, 2021, 11:18:58 PM
The wind finally showed up in Maui, so I had a day that didn't include being embarrassed at how far my surf foiling has degenerated. I started out on my 980/390 because given my horrific performance surf foiling lately, I thought I might have completely forgotten how to foil. That worked OK, so I came in to take off my foot strap (poorly located) and switch to the 999/390. Ooooh. Like butter.

The wind kind of sucked, it had a lot of north in it, but when it would pivot to the east it blew a lot harder, then it swung north again. Irritating, but I had fun with my 6M cwc. Mark Raaphorst showed up with an ocean rodeo alula wing that got my little heart beating pitter-pat. Holy shit, I want one of those. It was a 4m, and when I looked out at the crowd as I was putting my gear away everyone was down slogging in the water--except Mark, who was having a blast.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 04, 2021, 03:01:04 AM
I was really enjoying the KDMaui 13.5" and its just about the same size, so I guess when I get the angle dialed in it will be sweet.

The Progressives are the thinnest and lowest volume tails you can probably buy right now. Hard to compare to anything else. My calipers found it to be quite a bit thinner than my KDMaui tail.

Probably the 375 would be a better low end match.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: jondrums on November 05, 2021, 11:47:24 PM
350 progressive with 1deg shim (under the rear screw) works perfectly.  I'll mess around with +.5 and +1.5 just to see, but I got the feel I wanted with +1 for sure.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: daswusup on November 06, 2021, 06:59:47 AM
I was really enjoying the KDMaui 13.5" and its just about the same size, so I guess when I get the angle dialed in it will be sweet.

The Progressives are the thinnest and lowest volume tails you can probably buy right now. Hard to compare to anything else. My calipers found it to be quite a bit thinner than my KDMaui tail.

I haven't put a caliper on it but my 380 appears to be thinner and lower volume than my 375. I have had 2 sessions on the 375 now with crazyshort and 999. My first thought is that the 375 is a touch more drag than the 380. It does want to roll into turns more easily. I'm not sure if I like this aspect or not, at least with this setup. I am interested in trying it with the 890. It seems like it will pair better with the 890 than the 999. Pitch control was a little more squirrely than with the 380. My two sessions have been in shitty winter wind so, this probably plays a role in my opinion. I am going to try the +1 shim like Jondrums says. The whole kit needs a solid gust to get going when I know I would have been up a lot more on the 1050. It does carve quite dreamily once up. It will be super fun in the surf. These are just first, early impressions. I will report back after more.

Probably the 375 would be a better low end match.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: headmount on November 08, 2021, 12:07:18 PM
When the wind has horsepower, the 999 gets my 210 lbs lifted and flies wonderfully but a day like yesterday was just too light or I was doing something wrong.  The wind was actually perfect and steady but just light, even with my 6M.  So I came in and spotted Pono Bill, who lived up to his name.  He fetched his impact driver and like some race car pit crew we made short work of replacing the 999 with my trusty 1010.  Then I was up immediately, with not even any touch downs.  Amazing how a different wing but with less than an inch difference in wingspan, can generate so much more lift.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Aaron SUP on November 10, 2021, 05:53:37 PM
I was really enjoying the KDMaui 13.5" and its just about the same size, so I guess when I get the angle dialed in it will be sweet.

The Progressives are the thinnest and lowest volume tails you can probably buy right now. Hard to compare to anything else. My calipers found it to be quite a bit thinner than my KDMaui tail.


Probably the 375 would be a better low end match.

Is the new 375 as quick as the 420 ?    (With the 999 front wing)
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 11, 2021, 03:11:51 AM

Is the new 375 as quick as the 420 ?    (With the 999 front wing)

I think the 375 is faster.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: daswusup on November 12, 2021, 05:38:42 PM
the 380 is faster than the 375
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: soepkip on November 25, 2021, 11:39:37 PM
I tried the 999 yesterday, 86 cm carbon mast short fuse 420 rear with a 3m2 wing.
I had a hard time jibing , this must be because of the flex of the the 999 ...
Also when  pumping with the wing flagged I was not in control and had to be very careful not to be too heavy footed.

I switched to the 930 and all was fine.
I will test the 999 again with an alu mast, perhaps the combined flex of the carbon mast and the 999  together with a meter span is just too much(for me @ 85kg)
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on November 25, 2021, 11:57:53 PM
I will test the 999 again with an alu mast, perhaps the combined flex of the carbon mast and the 999  together with a meter span is just too much(for me @ 85kg)

I don't like my carbon masts with the 999. I confess I didn't think of the flexy feeling and reduced turning response to be the combination of wing and mast, I thought it was just all the mast twisting and flexing. It's an almost bizarrely sensitive wing to tuning changes. The tail choices have a huge effect, I think my short fuse is too long for it, and shimming the HA tail wings for a little more positive angle (rear screw) has a profound effect on both getting the foil up and turning.

It also works better for me pushed back further in the tracks. It's pretty much the only wing I have or had that works that way.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 26, 2021, 05:27:46 AM
Make sure your mast to fuse connection is tight. Iím not talking about the screws. You want the fuse to mast connection to press on. No wiggle.

Carbon surfaces wear. Everyone has to tune up older carbon parts to keep them tight. Itís very easy to tune up the Axis carbon mast head. A little epoxy on the side face of the head for just a little tightening. A layer of 4 oz fiberglass for more tightening. FYI 4oz fiberglass is .005 inches thick.

Same goes for all brands. GoFoil hex needs repotting. Armstrong needs repotting. Armstrong created the + system to delay the issue. But it will need tuning up eventually. Same with SAB mast head.

Carbon/epoxy matrix wears. A fact of life. Much easier to tune up than a loose aluminum connection.

This stuff matters as we go high performance, more than ever.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: soepkip on November 26, 2021, 09:16:40 AM
Make sure your mast to fuse connection is tight. Iím not talking about the screws. You want the fuse to mast connection to press on. No wiggle.

Carbon surfaces wear. Everyone has to tune up older carbon parts to keep them tight. Itís very easy to tune up the Axis carbon mast head. A little epoxy on the side face of the head for just a little tightening. A layer of 4 oz fiberglass for more tightening. FYI 4oz fiberglass is .005 inches thick.

Same goes for all brands. GoFoil hex needs repotting. Armstrong needs repotting. Armstrong created the + system to delay the issue. But it will need tuning up eventually. Same with SAB mast head.

Carbon/epoxy matrix wears. A fact of life. Much easier to tune up than a loose aluminum connection.

This stuff matters as we go high performance, more than ever.
The connection between my carbon mast and my fuse is very very tight.
I have to lean on it with all my weight to get it in.
Title: Re: The ART 999 Thread
Post by: PonoBill on November 26, 2021, 06:08:15 PM
I actually added a layer of 1oz glass to mine, coated the inside of my loosest red fuselage with wax release, and pounded it on. My black fuselage is so tight I have to ease in the screws and then rock it, tightening as I go. I suspect that's not great for the fuselage, but so far, so good.
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