Standup Zone Forum
General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: SUPeter on September 14, 2021, 08:51:25 AM
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Hello everyone,
Anybody make their own downwinder, pintail? You know Da Kine. Those beautiful boards that Kalama is making and everyone is using in the gorge and in Hawaii. I'm considering making one for downwinding and for just straight up SUP foiling. Thinking of going long and narrow, 6'3" x 25". Very thick! Just wondered as to how stable they are and how narrow I could go. Just thought I'd put this out there in case anyone had ever used a board like this. I'm growing tired of pulling 20-30 lbs of water behind me every time I SUP foil my 6' Fugly (beveled tail), or my 5' 6" wing board. I feel that more speed is going to make catching unbroken waves a hell of a lot easier. Who knows, maybe I'll even have a bit of success with a flatwater start? Keep dreaming!
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A couple buddies have them. I’ll report in when I get eyes on one.
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https://youtu.be/ZOL8C0cnVMY
Here you can see KDmaui's downwind sup,which he uses for light wind wingfoil too.
Pretty extreme pintail,at some point in the vid he comments that he went too far on the pintail and that next one would have some more surface...cannot remember the exact words but something like that.
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Board report- 6'3" Kalama inspired downwinder pintail.
Had a week off just as I finished my downwinder board. Managed to test it on a 30-40 kt downwinder, 2 days on beach surf, and one day winging with it. As with all things, one hopes he is not making so many compromises that the end result does not do anything well but many things poorly. I'm sure catching small offshore bumps would be easier on a 22-23" wide board but maintaining stability in those conditions would have been a handful. I'm glad to say that I like the 25" width and increased stability. It still takes off on windblown swell easy enough. It also paddles onto the flattest beach break I have ever paddled onto. The board makes SUP foiling so much less exhausting for both getting on waves and paddling back out. Not as stable as a radiational SUP foil board but definitely manageable. As far as winging, It takes off as easily as my dedicated wing board with a straight tail. I'm pleased all the way around. It's as close as I can get to an all around foil board.
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This is great! stoked for you 8)
Your specs and board pictures will be most helpful and greatly appreciated respectively :)
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I’ll try to post pics!
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Here is another.
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One more. Specs- 6’3 x 25” x 5 3/4”. 110 L
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That's perfect dude! As if you scooped it from the Kalama warhorse and sanded off the serial number along with the paint job ;D
So to have a complete picture, what's the board weight and what's your weight?
Thanks for posting 8)
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Board weight- almost 18 lbs (8kgs) Hollowed out with chambers( saved 1 lb) 1/8' divinicell with 3K carbon twill over standing area. All covered with 4.8 oz Carbon/Innegra 2x2 twill and 4 oz glass. vacuum bagged. This board should last a lifetime and is strong enough to handle the often times harsh Maine coast. Double laps on the rails - one could give those rails a good whack with a hammer and still not ding it. So far I have downwinded it with good results, SUP foiled
on 3-6 foot waves twice, very nice, and winged with it twice, also very nice. An incredible winging machine in ultra light winds. I'm pleased and am glad I did not go the ultra-narrow route as Dave Kalama has. At least not yet anyway. I weigh 155 lbs.
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I love this design. Why do you think it works so well to reduce drag while getting up to speed?
Also, does it allow pumping similar to the older flat wedge-tailed board? Seems like that's one of the advantages of the design.
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As to drag, look at race boards and surf skis. This is a baby unlimited in a lot of ways. We only vary from those design principles to make it able to stand easier.
Example, the serious guys in HI are riding these at 22" wide or less. Prone versions are 20" wide. Longer, thinner, more tapered is faster. Optimize for those and you go quick. If you can stand on it. This version is a great example of choosing the compromise you can live with. 25" wide is likely the sweet spot here.
I've ridden the 23" Kalama and it's tough but dang fast.
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Interesting vid above. At some point, he says that the board is the most important factor for getting onto a foil in light winds.
I assume that's because of the drag factor of the bottom shape? Hence the pintail concept to approximate an efficient displacement hull that minimizes drag from the tail.
Does that mean that foils take off at displacement speeds? Or does a board sometimes have to reach planing speed before the foil has enough speed to generate lift?
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As to drag, look at race boards and surf skis. This is a baby unlimited in a lot of ways. We only vary from those design principles to make it able to stand easier.
Example, the serious guys in HI are riding these at 22" wide or less. Prone versions are 20" wide. Longer, thinner, more tapered is faster. Optimize for those and you go quick. If you can stand on it. This version is a great example of choosing the compromise you can live with. 25" wide is likely the sweet spot here.
I've ridden the 23" Kalama and it's tough but dang fast.
It's a fascinating development and it's where I kinda thought things might end up (if this is the destination!) - the basic physics doesn't lie! And it shows how different applications need different solutions - compare to the square tail, another emergent foil trend, which is almost the total opposite of this!
I'm keeping an eye out for the 2022 Casey Sunova downwind foil boards to see what they settled on as a practical width. I'm interested in getting a DW board in future for leaning paddle ups so I can eventually wake thief the ferries here on no wind days, and maybe the occasional DW, skills permitting! 'An incredible winging machine in ultra light winds' also sounds good!
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Does that mean that foils take off at displacement speeds?
Some do and some don’t, but all generate some amount of helping hand with any forward movement.
I’ve paddled Dave’s 5’2 x 28. The force to pull the paddle is half what my personal board was. So all my boards now feature the Kalama influence.
For winging, I feel this lower drag design allows the board to “start” moving easier in what I call no wind conditions. Then once a little forward motion has started, the wind wing gains enough pressure to be more effective pumping. Then I can get the board to the planing speed needed for fast foils to lift. The whole process is easier to execute than with a simple straight wide tail.
It’s also better in waves. Less drag from tail touches.
The plain planing bottom is more sensitive to water surface texture when getting going. The Dave bottom, doesn’t care about the water surface texture.
I’ll do a video about it eventually
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Everything that Dwight said and this. One of the challenges of downwinding is the balance between a foil slow enough to get on foil vs a foil fast enough to keep up with unbroken open ocean swell once you are up. That's a battle for everyone.
I don't DW but I wing in DW conditions sometimes and Hdip and I hang with a bunch of people who do. This is based on that mostly for me. The speed unbroken swell goes is crazy. Also boat wakes can be moving fast as well of course. So a big slow foil will lift at way below planing speed (and you can use that flat tail in waves or with a wing) but a foil that can stay on swell might need to be moving pretty quick to foil.
Bottom line, there's way more to DW than paddling up on foil. ;D
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Thanks all for the comments. This is super interesting as I design my first board.
I won't be down-winding, but I will be learning to foil and wing using low aspect foils in an area with predominantly lighter winds (10-20 knots). I'm also interested in SUP surfing in small waves.
I'm trying to decide whether to build my board as a pintail, or a square tail, or perhaps a round tail.
Given my use-case, are there any drawbacks to using a pintail design?
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Board weight- almost 18 lbs (8kgs) Hollowed out with chambers( saved 1 lb) 1/8' divinicell with 3K carbon twill over standing area. All covered with 4.8 oz Carbon/Innegra 2x2 twill and 4 oz glass. vacuum bagged. This board should last a lifetime and is strong enough to handle the often times harsh Maine coast. Double laps on the rails - one could give those rails a good whack with a hammer and still not ding it. So far I have downwinded it with good results, SUP foiled
on 3-6 foot waves twice, very nice, and winged with it twice, also very nice. An incredible winging machine in ultra light winds. I'm pleased and am glad I did not go the ultra-narrow route as Dave Kalama has. At least not yet anyway. I weigh 155 lbs.
Construction sounds fantastic SUPeter. What's the distance of the tracks from the tail and how did you come up with it?
BTW, if by now you feel it's too wide for you, I'll take it off your hands :D
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Kwild, build it for what you, not what you might do.
Go wide and make it easy unless you're an expert foiler and need to crank turns that I can't imagine. Pin tail boards are not made to be "fun" per session. Not that they aren't in the right hands. But just know that you're seeing one design from one shaper for a sport that maybe (maybe) 100-200 people world wide can do. Don't base your first board on this and don't teach your 15 year old to drive in a Ferrari, right?
My beginner SUP was 28" wide and square as heck and really food watermen (and me) struggled to paddle it. What part of the world are you in? Try to borrow a board to learn on if you can.
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Great view of Jeremy Riggs' pin tail here and how narrow that board is!
https://youtube.com/shorts/PcVYWYCnaag?feature=share
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One more. Specs- 6’3 x 25” x 5 3/4”. 110 L
@SUPeter is that the lot at Popham? Rode there a bunch last summer. Always trying to sniff out some more foilers to ride with on my maine trips(visiting wife’s family in the summers)
That deep water energy there hits way different than here in SC, wave is moving much faster than our crumbles down south. This type of board seems perfect for matching that speed on catch. My micro prone stuff catches slow SC swell great, was miserable up there.
Also with that swell speed pumping back is a lot harder(covering a ton of distance on wave) so sacrificing pump for paddle seems fair.
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I wouldn't even consider a pintail for a first board. Far less stability, especially when you weight your rear foot, and no particular advantage for a beginner. Early on if you are SUP surfing your board, a squarer, flatter tail offers both stability and a shove from the wave. Beginners tend to like whitewater since it gives a free shove as long as you brace well against the substantial push. Pintails would be fine for beginner prone foil boards, they need some paddling speed.
That Kane video is very interesting. He's great to talk with, his skill level is through the roof as well as his technical knowledge, but unlike most of the really talented foilers he's so analytical and sensitive to nuances that his observations are useful even for a faker like me.
I got the idea of raising my back hand to to bring the wing more vertical so I could go faster and more upwind from Alan Cadiz but refined it substantially after talking with Kane. For example, I was nervous about sticking the tip into the water going upwind since it usually makes the wing flip which translates to an instant faceplant for me. KD told me it doesn't tend to flip if you're powered up and close-hauled. But you want to just brush the wing against the water every so often, and control the height with knee bend so you have the most control over it. If you drop it down by lowering your front and back hands your arms are in a weak position for control. After about a week of practice and I could keep the front foil wing making sucking noises and brush the water with my wing. With the 999 and the 400/60 tail the speed is flat out spooky but smooth, and it goes upwind at a downright stupid angle.
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Thanks all. Given that I don't even own a foil yet, and I'm already designing my first foil board. I'm putting the cart before the horse.
But I love interesting board design problems just as much as actually riding them.
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Great view of Jeremy Riggs' pin tail here and how narrow that board is!
https://youtube.com/shorts/PcVYWYCnaag?feature=share
Here's another view.
https://youtu.be/fywJZ3V-Trc
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I have recently spent 3 days foiling a local river wave on this board and am super stoked I went 25" wide. This board was stable enough to navigate the boils during entry onto the wave and fast enough to paddle onto the wave face with ease. Touchdowns go almost unnoticed and with a few slight hops, I am back up on foil. Do I desire a narrower board? From the standpoint of shear curiosity, of course, and i will probably be making one soon. But.....I must say that this board has exceeded my expectations in every venue that I have it tested. SUP foiling- far superior. Winging- As good as my dedicated straight tail wing board. Downwind SUP- I have had no trouble getting up on foil in the bumps so far. Maybe the smaller wings will be different. River Wave foiling- Very, very easy. The narrowness that exists (25") makes deep carving very easy. No need to worry about driving the rails into the water's surface.
Yes, This is Popham Beach where some of these pics are taken.
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Having just finished a 8' x 20" x 6" Barracuda style board, here are my impressions:
1) Very fast, obviously. Can finally get that long awaited flat water pop-up.
2) Much more stable than anticipated. Even in a running swell I am able to paddle around standing quite easily. For one, more length adds to stability. Also, Sea kayakers have often known that a narrow and long sea kayak is far more sea worthy than a wide, long sea kayak. A flat hull wants to stay parallel with the waters surface. If that surface is pitching and rolling, so is the kayak. A narrow hull will maintain its level position much more easily in pitching and rolling seas. And so it is with the "Barracuda" style board. Especially a board with a mast and foil attached. I will use this board for most of my SUP foiling outings as well.
3) The added length of the nose gives the front end the inertia to withstand the influence of boils and bumps at high speed. This may be more of a benefit when foiling on turbulent river waves but can also help when charging down big rolling swell.
4) a lightweight nose allows for more agility/maneuverability.
5) a heavier than most foil rig may also help with stability. I use an Axis rig and the additional weight may give the board a better righting moment. I'm considering filling the empty space in my lower mast with lead flashing cut to size, LOL. Who knows?
6) The narrow width allows for deeper carves without touching down on the edges.
There is probably more but I cant think of anything else at this time.