Standup Zone Forum

General => Random => Topic started by: TallDude on July 14, 2021, 10:26:42 AM

Title: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: TallDude on July 14, 2021, 10:26:42 AM
My vacinatted RN wife is just getting over Covid-19 illness. She was one of the first to be vaccinated (Moderna). Her and 10 of her hospital co-workers all recently contracted Covid from the same patient. All tracing protocals were taken. All of her co-workers are /were already vaccinated with various Covid vaccines. She's doing fine now. She had a high temp for two days, coughing, and partial loss of taste and smell. She isolated herself from everyone for more than a week and no one around her has become ill. She was symptomatic within two days of exposure to the patient. Pfizer is reccomending a booster shot which they say can booster the effectiveness even more against the new variants. Maybe the fact that everyone else in our family (me included) were vaccinated much later lends itself the idea that the vaccines do lose their effectiveness over time? Maybe yearly booster shots will be needed?
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: FRP on July 14, 2021, 03:30:05 PM
Thanks TD for the note.

Good news that your wife has recovered. As I am sure you know the vaccinations decrease the probability of being infected by about 90% for the variants before Delta. It is likely lower for the Delta variant but I have not read what the number is. What the vaccines dramatically decrease is the chances of severe illness, hospitalisation and death (all by more than 98%) if you are infected. As viral load and shedding is also decreased they do decrease the risk of transmission if you are infected. In Canada now a large majority of those hospitalised have not been vaccinated. BC is now over 80% of eligible population vaccinated with one dose and two doses around 50%. This is all very positive and provides much hope for the future. We are a long way from the end of this pandemic. There is no consensus as of yet on third vaccinations and when to have them. I have well educated young relatives who are "vaccine hesitant" and who have been infected. I truly hope that our door remains open to them and that their young age shields them from severe illness. It would be easy to climb up on a high horse. In all likelihood I am up on that horse now and do not even realise it. Bob
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: PonoBill on July 15, 2021, 11:15:22 AM
If the horse relates to people choosing not to vaccinate against a potentially fatal disease and thereby serving as vectors, then it really can't be high enough.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: tarquin on July 15, 2021, 12:11:44 PM
Its becoming obvious in Europe the vaccines are less effective against the Delta variant.
 Hopefully they will keep the majority of people out of hospital as promised.
 If the vaccine is not stopping the spreading though there is still a chance of it mutating again.
 With a small chance of being hospitalised for younger people what is the benefit of taking the vaccine?
 Its now becoming obvious in Europe you will have to be vaccinated to do anything. 12 and over in France.
 Good your wife has recovered and a big thank you to all hospital workers all over the world.
 Its not over yet unfortunately.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: PonoBill on July 15, 2021, 01:00:40 PM
The data I've seen shows the vaccine as effective against Delta, but it's more infectious. A higher contagion rate pushes all the stats higher, even when vaccine efficacy remains the same.

The infection rate can be pushed lower even among unvaccinated people by vaccination of a sufficient majority when the contagion rate is lower--fewer people shedding virus. Increase the contagion rate and the effect is reduced, In Delta's case that is a huge increase in overall infection.

Picture 10% of the vaccinated people getting CV when the case rate was around 2000/day in May in the UK--so 200 a day. Now along comes Delta and the case rate in July is 40,000 per day. Presto--4000 vaccinated people a day getting Covid. The rate of serious illness for vaccinated people with Covid remains at 2% of those who are infected--80 per day. That's bad, but it's a long way from the hospitalization/death rate of unvaccinated.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/united-kingdom-covid-cases.html

The most obvious issue I've seen locally is an increase in assholery. People seem to have forgotten their manners, if they ever had any.

Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Subber on July 16, 2021, 10:27:57 AM
My vacinatted RN wife is just getting over Covid-19 illness. She was one of the first to be vaccinated (Moderna). Her and 10 of her hospital co-workers all recently contracted Covid from the same patient. All tracing protocals were taken. All of her co-workers are /were already vaccinated with various Covid vaccines. She's doing fine now. She had a high temp for two days, coughing, and partial loss of taste and smell. She isolated herself from everyone for more than a week and no one around her has become ill. She was symptomatic within two days of exposure to the patient. Pfizer is reccomending a booster shot which they say can booster the effectiveness even more against the new variants. Maybe the fact that everyone else in our family (me included) were vaccinated much later lends itself the idea that the vaccines do lose their effectiveness over time? Maybe yearly booster shots will be needed?

Glad she is doing fine now.

Hmmm....I guess a question is, Is the natural immunity/antibodies she got from catching the virus better than the vaccine (and/or the potential  booster)?
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: TallDude on July 24, 2021, 10:21:03 AM
So a follow up. No one in our house or close family got Covid from being exposed to my wife. A friend of ours 16 year old son got it from somewhere? Only symptom was loss of taste. No fever or cough. My wife has already regained most of her taste and smell and has been cleared to go back to work. Almost 100% of all the current hospitalized Covid patients were / are unvacinated.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: krash on July 25, 2021, 06:59:10 AM
At this point I find it almost pointless to discuss the benefit of having the vaccine and not with the people not vaccinated, at least here in the US...

There is yet another variant showing up in S. Florida called  "Lamda" while "Delta" is the prevalent one in people testing positive and/or ending up in the hospital.
As long as Covid is still spreading and not slowed or stopped there will be varints, its not new that's why its called Covid 19 not Covid 1.

Florida, thanks you Gov. DeathSantUs, now can calim again the highest number of infected people with 73,000+ cases and a rate of positive test at just over 15% and climbing weekly.. tripple form 5% to 15% in 3 weeks.
The hospitals are reporting 90+ % of the people in he ICU's are not vaccinated and generally below the age of 55.

I'm vaccinated with Pfizer and glad I am, was one of the first in line and If there is a booster I'll line up to get that one to.

There is a reason that Polio and Smallpox are no longer a threat in the US and that's because of Vaccines that were given to 2+ generations of residents of the US population.

And here, with no restrictions now, had a concert 3 day concert "Rolling Loud" with 10+ thousand  shouting and screaming fans elbow to elbow, sharing who knows what, with no social distancing, or a care in the world about themselves or others.


Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Fishman on July 25, 2021, 09:26:51 AM



Glad she is doing fine now.

Hmmm....I guess a question is, Is the natural immunity/antibodies she got from catching the virus better than the vaccine (and/or the potential  booster)?
This is a good question, which is more effective at keeping people out of the hospital. Vacation or previously having CV? How much better is one over the other...

It seems to be another passionate subject that can rarely be logically discussed without emotions steering it down silly rabbit holes. If even someone mentions the statistics that could POSSIBLY discouraged vaccinations, you will instantly be a flat earther. And honestly there is just so little to be gained by pointing out those type of facts, that it almost is pointless.

Thing is like most things in life, vaccines are all about risk to reward. As mentioned Polio and Smallpox are gone because of vaccines that had huge rewards, and extremely low risk. On the other hand if there was a vaccine that prevented the common cold but 5% would get ____ fill in blank ( the flu, cluster headaches, cancer...) Then the risk to reward might not be worth it. Based on what I know about the subject current vaccines are critical for some, and counterproductive for others. The risk to reward varies quite a bit at this time so I'll be keeping a open mind on this subject.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: LaPerouseBay on July 25, 2021, 04:17:04 PM
As long as Covid is still spreading and not slowed or stopped there will be varints, its not new that's why its called Covid 19 not Covid 1.

Copy/paste from the Goliath

What does the word novel mean related to coronavirus?
The word “novel” originated from the Latin word “novus,” which means “new.” In medicine, “novel” usually refers to a virus or bacterial strain that was not previously identified. COVID-19 is a new disease, caused by the novel, or new, coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 that was not previously seen in humans.

And:
 
Common question
Why is the coronavirus disease called COVID-19?
On February 11, 2020 the World Health Organization announced an official name for the disease that is causing the 2019 novel coronavirus outbreak, first identified in Wuhan China. The new name of this disease is coronavirus disease 2019, abbreviated as COVID-19.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Admin on July 26, 2021, 03:21:19 AM
Based on what I know about the subject current vaccines are critical for some, and counterproductive for others. The risk to reward varies quite a bit at this time so I'll be keeping a open mind on this subject.

Even if you are unconvinced that the immediate risk from any of the current vaccines is phenomenally low at an individual level (and it is), wouldn't you remain open to getting vaccinated for those around you?  Wouldn't you want to help prevent continuation and mutation so this doesn't circle around for you.  What statistics are you seeing that have you unsure?
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Bean on July 26, 2021, 07:00:55 AM
Wouldn't you want to help prevent continuation and mutation so this doesn't circle around for you. 

The anti-vaccine crowd seem to believe that vaccinating low-risk populations would not have an affect on spread.  While that might have been true with the original strain, a recent study from the UK showed that children and adults under 50 were 2.5 times more likely to become infected with Delta.  Additional variants could be even more aggressive.  Certainly Lambda appears to be so in Tennessee. 
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: SUP Leave on July 26, 2021, 10:59:16 AM
The vaccine thing is weird. I have an aunt who is an ER nurse. She is unbearably liberal, literally you can be looking at a beautiful sunset and she will tell you it is only beautiful, because Trump lost. Her WIFI name is "McConnel=Satan".

She is unvaccinated. She flatly says, it is because of the FDA's EUA. Once FDA gives standing approval she will take it, I would imagine she is in the minority of anti-vaxxers. I do have some friends who are true anti-vaxxers. They are just hippies and rely on plants, roots and herbs, yoga and other natural methods for everything.

Other people I know who haven't gotten vaccinated, are mostly because they can't be bothered. Again and again the US Gov't cannot seem to understand human nature. They get called anti-vaxxers, when in reality they just don't care that much, because they are not afraid of Covid. The argument about "what if you infect someone who is high risk" doesn't rate for them. They probably haven't called their grandma in 6 months, let alone seen her. These people are far more common than a passionate anti-vaxxer. We only hear about the anti's because they make noise.

I think social media bubble makes it seem like the anti-vaxxers are a bunch of Trump loving hicks. Most people I know (because of where I live) are conservatives and all got vaccinated. I think if they would have branded it "Covid Shots" the same as "Flu Shots" they could have gotten a lot more activity. Does the government think we can overcome selfishness and apathy, via peer pressure?

IMO "strongly recommended" is far more powerful a tool than "mandated". I think it makes for better and more productive conversations and maintains free will. Mandates create sides-picking.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: TallDude on July 26, 2021, 11:25:51 AM
M_RNA vaccinies are the future of therapies and cures for a whole list of ailments and diseases.

https://ysph.yale.edu/news-article/the-application-and-future-potential-of-mrna-vaccines/
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Wetstuff on July 27, 2021, 05:36:22 AM
The story behind the discovery of mRNA is both hopeful and sad.  This woman from a thatched-roof home worked for years before being accepted by the establishment.  I expect the future to thank her more loudly.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/redemption-one-scientists-unwavering-belief-mrna-gave-world/

Audio:  https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/10/podcasts/the-daily/mrna-vaccines-katalin-kariko.html


Business Week had a great article on Moderna ..that I cannot post a link to here.  Maybe I'll do a copy/paste...


Jim


Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Admin on July 27, 2021, 12:08:25 PM
My brother Scott did this interview today on Morning Joe.  Speaks to Delta, hesitancy, the role of vaccination for protection of others, etc.  His interview starts about 3 minutes into the video but the whole thing is interesting (and a bit disorienting).

https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/doctor-discusses-rising-coronavirus-infection-rates-in-tennessee-117457477729?fbclid=IwAR3It3Au9E8rb_t-vkBpzqYC1rsot2tVohhxIMytvIGODhVmlQ9trsH1uSU
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: TallDude on July 27, 2021, 03:53:53 PM
What your brother wants to say is " look... there are a lot of uneducated people living in this state and they don't understand what vaccines do." They don't understand how cell phones work either, but they use them every day. They should be more afraid putting a Lithium-ion battery against their ear all day.  ::)
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Admin on July 28, 2021, 04:26:20 AM
Can you imagine the frustration?  They are stuck at 42% of eligible adults with vaccine doses sitting on the shelves.  At the same time they have people who are trusted by the unvaccinated community actively dissuading people from taking precaution and state officials seeking to reduce the outreach programs for all vaccines (not just covid). 
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Bean on July 28, 2021, 07:58:36 AM
It's ironic that in their overzealous pursuit to avoid looking like lemmings, they become lemmings. (I know - actual lemmings get a bad rap, they are really just as smart as their cousin rodents...)
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Tom on July 28, 2021, 08:02:58 AM
I think that all public businesses should voluntarily post a sign that states the percentage of how many of their employees are vaccinated. I have a right to know if a restaurant's, retail store, dentist's office, what ever, business's employees are vaccinated. I can then use that information to determine how safe I'll feel using that business.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Hdip on July 28, 2021, 08:16:13 AM
Except the business is not legally allowed to ask it's employee's if they are vaccinated I thought.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Tom on July 28, 2021, 08:33:21 AM
Except the business is not legally allowed to ask it's employee's if they are vaccinated I thought.

Not sure about that.  There is talk about requiring employees to either be vaccinated or recently tested. Also, I stated it as voluntarily.  The point is, I'll chose a restaurant where all of their employees are vaccinated over one with a low rate.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Bean on July 28, 2021, 08:53:34 AM
I was surprised to find that in our state it's ok for the employer to ask (at least for the moment).
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: PonoBill on July 28, 2021, 09:18:19 AM
Every human sits in a bubble, communicating only with peers and a few family members, adding to the framework of their beliefs only the things that support the framework and rejecting everything else no matter how stupid or illogical the accepted stuff is, or how compelling and obvious the rejected information is. Advertising works by leveraging that reality--that's what I did, that's ALL that I did. Anyone seeking to educate with advertising is a moron. The government sucks at persuasion because they govern by fiat.

If you are writing in a forum, no matter how crappy your spelling is or how hideous your grammar, you are in a tiny segment of humanity capable of expressing your thoughts and opinions. At least 50% of humanity can't do that. The short and brutal reason is--too stupid. You don't know any of them, you never talk to them unless you have to.

The simple notion that we could dispense with all this drag and humanity would be better off has been proven disastrously wrong so many times it's hardly worth recounting. It's what we are. A better government might figure out that they need to persuade the stupid, and that once persuaded nothing would change their mind, but they'd likely be authoritarian shortly after they started making that work. That's where we were headed with Trump, and it's where we will go if/when the current set of charlatans pretending to be conservative republicans gain more power.

There's one simple reason why voter suppression is critical to the future of those assholes. Gen Z is 51 percent non-white. Boomers were 70 percent white. The lefties can't afford to call that out--it would energize white people to suppress non-white voting. Not the outcome they want to see. No altruism there--just a desire for power and money.

The persistent lack of effective direction from the government is equally simple--effective direction always alienates some block of voters. Neither side can afford to lose a block.

The FDA will plod through their painfully slow process regardless of the damage it causes. It's the only safe course for them, even if it costs a few hundred thousand lives. I would hope no one believes that the agency that approved Fentanyl has your best interests at heart.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: SUP Leave on July 28, 2021, 09:56:43 AM
Apt post Pono bill.

16% of Americans smoke, 67% are overweight or obese. 40% did not vote. There is no amount of "outreach" that is going to educate an apathetic society. Humans and even more Americans live by two simple words "me first". Things that don't work: "you'll kill grandma", "do it for your neighbor", or even "you will die if you don't get this vaccine." Everyone who buys those has the vaccine in them already. Calling the unvacc'd disease ridden vermin, which is basically the media's other tactic is divisive and pointless, and also doesn't work.

Now we have the re-up on the masks, which removes the best carrot from the vaccine (no mask). WTF? Perfect chance to double down on vaccines effectiveness and they pulled the rug out. Especially because the Delta variant is going to start to recede in some regions pretty quickly (See India, UK), they could have used that to an advantage.

"Outreach" is just jobs for bureaucrats. Unless the outreach is door to door with a needle and a spear (a nurse and a sheriff), it has a zero effect.

I would bet that the unvacc'd are a pretty fractured political block. I only have my n=1 to go by, but most people who aren't getting vacc'd are not that political, they just don't care.



Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: PonoBill on July 28, 2021, 10:08:31 AM
More than 70% believe in angels, which makes the "50% are stupid" estimate more than a little optimistic.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: gone_foiling on July 28, 2021, 11:36:21 AM
More than 70% believe in angels, which makes the "50% are stupid" estimate more than a little optimistic.

 ;D ;D ;D Laughing my ass off here - that was good Bill.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: sflinux on July 28, 2021, 12:30:08 PM
I think that all public businesses should voluntarily post a sign that states the percentage of how many of their employees are vaccinated. I have a right to know if a restaurant's, retail store, dentist's office, what ever, business's employees are vaccinated. I can then use that information to determine how safe I'll feel using that business.

Are you vaccinated and afraid of unvaccinated people?

The latest data suggests that vaccinated people may be unsymptomatic spreaders:
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/27/cdc-to-reverse-indoor-mask-policy-to-recommend-them-for-fully-vaccinated-people-in-covid-hot-spots.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/27/cdc-to-reverse-indoor-mask-policy-to-recommend-them-for-fully-vaccinated-people-in-covid-hot-spots.html)
"Walensky said new data shows the variant behaves “uniquely differently from past strains of the virus,” indicating that some vaccinated people infected with the delta variant “may be contagious and spread the virus to others.”
Based on the latest data, if I was to "use that information to determine" doing business with a business, I would:
a) feel safe wearing a mask wherever
b) feel at risk not wearing a mask in a herd immunity (vaccinated/covid recovered) maskless crowd
c) feel possibly responsible for exposing others if not wearing a mask in a low vaccinated masked crowd.

Bottom line: latest data suggests that unsymptomatic spreaders of the delta variant can be vaccinated or unvaccinated so adjust your fear accordingly.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: PonoBill on July 28, 2021, 05:46:32 PM
Actually, reading the articles carefully, they don't actually say vaccinated people are likely to be symptomatic spreaders--at least for the studies available to a layman like me. And anyone who writes "uniquely differently" should be subject to careful scrutiny anyway. It looks to me like the "data" is really just statistically inferred--or more accurately, it's just math. The delta and similar varieties spread about a thousand times more easily. The percentage of vaccinated people who test positive is unknown since very few vaccinated people are subsequently tested and no study is intentionally exposing people to the virus to see what happens. It's all fuzzy stats. But obviously, 1000 times very small (delta) is 1000 times more than one times very small.

Wearing the cheesy masks most of us wear has always been more about preventing you from spreading virus-filled snot than preventing you from breathing virus-filled snot. Given how marvelously altruistic Americans are it's always been wise to infer otherwise.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Tom on July 28, 2021, 07:12:04 PM
Quote
Bottom line: latest data suggests that unsymptomatic spreaders of the delta variant can be vaccinated or unvaccinated so adjust your fear accordingly.

The a vaccinations are extremely effective in preventing people from catching Covid but a few do catch it and can spread it. Dealing with a only vaccinated people greatly reduces the odds that you'll be dealing with an infective person. Also, only dealing with vaccinated people insures you're dealing with people that have some common scene. In other words, I want to avoid unvaccinated people for more reasons than being safe.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: gone_foiling on July 28, 2021, 08:39:03 PM
I think that all public businesses should voluntarily post a sign that states the percentage of how many of their employees are vaccinated. I have a right to know if a restaurant's, retail store, dentist's office, what ever, business's employees are vaccinated. I can then use that information to determine how safe I'll feel using that business.
If you feel unsafe you should stay home. There are bunch of ways now how you can successfully enjoy your life in your house without exposing yourself to a dangerous world. And no, you don’t have that right to know…
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: gone_foiling on July 28, 2021, 08:44:44 PM


Also, only dealing with vaccinated people insures you're dealing with people that have some common scene. In other words, I want to avoid unvaccinated people for more reasons than being safe.

Another not really bright statement. I hope we’ll never cross paths, I am cool with that.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: TallDude on July 28, 2021, 09:39:41 PM

Wearing the cheesy masks most of us wear has always been more about preventing you from spreading virus-filled snot than preventing you from breathing virus-filled snot. Given how marvelously altruistic Americans are it's always been wise to infer otherwise.
Some of the doctors that work with my wife at the hospital think the masks are mostly preventing people from touching their mouth and face. They touch a contaminated surface, then inadvertently touch their face. We all do it. 
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Carpediem on July 29, 2021, 02:28:48 AM
...
Also, only dealing with vaccinated people insures you're dealing with people that have some common scene. In other words, I want to avoid unvaccinated people for more reasons than being safe.

In this large, population-based study conducted in Catalonia, Covid mortality rates were cut by more than half in the vitamin D (cholecalciferol or, even better, calcifediol) suplementation groups. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8285728/ (infection rates were also affected, but by smaller ammounts)

These results are not being propagandised 24/7. But, since the information is out there, I reserve the right to think that relatively educated people unaware of their 25OHD levels (which can be related to a myriad of other illnesses as well) don't exercise optimum reasoning. I'm not saying it's the only thing one should do, there is a bunch of complementary ways to promote a strong immune system.. even though I have no problem "dealing" with, for example, sedentary people who eat trash food compulsively.

Assuming scene was a typo for sense in the quote above, I have to say that the english expression "common sense" has always amazed me for how powerfully meaningful it is. I mean, in other languages something like "good sense" is used instead. But I think the term "common" is actually much more appropriate.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: PonoBill on July 29, 2021, 07:34:34 AM
There are about 7.8 billion ways to die since we're all going to do it. Covid is just the currently most talked about and surprisingly avoidable one. It's almost perfectly aimed at the human psyche, killing mostly old or immune-compromised people--the folks closest to the front of the line, but being spread enthusiastically by those who rarely die from it. It's easy for someone young and uncompromised to make a case for being unvaccinated and eating Tumeric instead--"it's not going to hurt me. Grandma is gonna die anyway". Only epidemiologists care about the herd or the fact that a few million people will have their lives shortened. Most people just don't.

We all manage to forget that a majority of Americans thought peace with the Nazis was acceptable and that we shouldn't intervene in World War Two. Almost 30% felt we shouldn't even sell England France and Poland food! :

Americans' Support for Assisting England, France and Poland
How far should we go in helping England, France and Poland ...
                                                                                                              Yes    No
                                                                                                               %    %
Should we sell them food supplies?                                                              74    27
Should we sell airplanes and other war materials to England and France?        58    42
Should we send our Army and Navy abroad to fight against Germany?            16    84
Gallup, Sept. 1-6, 1939

We didn't just start being shortsighted and "all about me" recently. It would be nice if government actually governed, but currently, it doesn't. The only persuasion currently being exercised is "re-elect me".
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: SUP Leave on July 29, 2021, 09:15:18 AM
Great post Pbill.

The "governing" regarding this pandemic has just been high ranking bureaucrats lurching around from pillar to post. Walk into your average county health department. Look around at the people and have a conversation with a couple of them and then ask yourself the question: "Do I want these people to have more control of my life?"

The media has done a great job on a lot of people regarding this vaccine.  Tom's attitude that the unvaccinated are nothing but idiotic disease ridden vermin, is pretty pervasive.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Admin on July 29, 2021, 10:01:22 AM
Here are the current maps of vaccination percentages by state.  It isn't a matter of being derogatory.  There are simply areas and populations that require a lot of improvement.  You may want to ask, are those the people that I want in control of my life?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccine-tracker

Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Bean on July 29, 2021, 11:37:13 AM
We all manage to forget that a majority of Americans thought peace with the Nazis was acceptable and that we shouldn't intervene in World War Two.
Lest someone think the US were composed of Nazi sympathizers, it's important to know that the US was going through an isolationist period after the crash of '29 when those polls were taken.  And although as a nation, along with the rest of the free world, we should have known better, the fact is, as a group we didn't.  The news from Europe didn't penetrate, we were too busy sorting out domestic issues.  By the time the evidence was better presented, we were in denial.  Sounds a little too damned familiar for sure.

Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Tom on July 29, 2021, 11:54:11 AM
Now I certainly did not plan on giving the impression that...
Quote
the unvaccinated are nothing but idiotic disease ridden vermin
But I have yet to hear a logical reason why a person would chose to not be vaccinated.

So, do you believe the average county health worker is nothing but idiotic healthy vermin.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: SUP Leave on July 29, 2021, 01:34:26 PM
I believe the average county worker is someone who's job is to keep their job. Which means unblinkingly following chain of command. I have many friends who work for the government, smart people who know exactly how to keep their jobs.

My point all along is that I don't want anyone interfering with my and my family's health decisions, because a society is far too complex for blanket mandates and recommendations to ever work.

Average employee in the CDC and FDA has one primary goal and it is the continuance of the CDC and FDA with their jobs intact.

I am seeing a lot of this vaccines or negative tests required to be at work stuff coming out. I'm into it, I can treat my employees like cattle. Forcing them to get shots, and next I can get them on Ritalin, or sudafeds, whatever it takes to increase production.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: PonoBill on July 29, 2021, 07:49:53 PM
We all manage to forget that a majority of Americans thought peace with the Nazis was acceptable and that we shouldn't intervene in World War Two.
Lest someone think the US were composed of Nazi sympathizers, it's important to know that the US was going through an isolationist period after the crash of '29 when those polls were taken.  And although as a nation, along with the rest of the free world, we should have known better, the fact is, as a group we didn't.  The news from Europe didn't penetrate, we were too busy sorting out domestic issues.  By the time the evidence was better presented, we were in denial.  Sounds a little too damned familiar for sure.

From the history I've read, the US had plenty of Nazi sympathizers. I will never know enough to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff of US history, so I mostly just look at numbers. I think if I were a pollster I'd think even less of the average run of humanity.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: dietlin on July 29, 2021, 08:06:15 PM
Now I certainly did not plan on giving the impression that...
Quote
the unvaccinated are nothing but idiotic disease ridden vermin
But I have yet to hear a logical reason why a person would chose to not be vaccinated.

So, do you believe the average county health worker is nothing but idiotic healthy vermin.

Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Carpediem on July 30, 2021, 04:37:25 AM
..
Only epidemiologists care about the herd or the fact that a few million people will have their lives shortened.
..

A strong immune system can not only protect an individual against illnesses, but, in the case of viruses, help to prevent asymptomatic infection (and consequently transmission) as well.

In the study linked in my previous post, Vitamin D suplementation lowered SARS-CoV2 infection numbers by 40%. Unfortunately results like this are not promoted enough.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Bean on July 30, 2021, 07:12:22 AM
We all manage to forget that a majority of Americans thought peace with the Nazis was acceptable and that we shouldn't intervene in World War Two.
Lest someone think the US were composed of Nazi sympathizers, it's important to know that the US was going through an isolationist period after the crash of '29 when those polls were taken.  And although as a nation, along with the rest of the free world, we should have known better, the fact is, as a group we didn't.  The news from Europe didn't penetrate, we were too busy sorting out domestic issues.  By the time the evidence was better presented, we were in denial.  Sounds a little too damned familiar for sure.

From the history I've read, the US had plenty of Nazi sympathizers. I will never know enough to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff of US history, so I mostly just look at numbers. I think if I were a pollster I'd think even less of the average run of humanity.

You say that you mostly look at the numbers, but the polls don't tell us what percentage of the US population were Nazi sympathizers in 1939.  So, your statement that the US had plenty of Nazi sympathizers is really based on inference.  (admittedly, you might be right depending on how you characterize "plenty")

I happen to think most Americans and especially those of the the WWII generation are/were pretty good people overall.

You're a marketing guy, what would you have done/or do differently to sell the vaccine?  And, I don't want to hear "you can't fix stupid"...
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Tom on July 30, 2021, 08:22:55 AM
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Misc/i-mdvLd6F/0/fad6c8e7/O/honeylook.jpg)
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Carpediem on July 30, 2021, 09:09:58 AM
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Misc/i-mdvLd6F/0/fad6c8e7/O/honeylook.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRoztYcf38aEEhNRDM8mBEP5Vt5UMUF_JeJVdnVqEzzVbG8GafPqLNFjzkYgUXHFsQMiIo&usqp=CAU)
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: SUP Leave on July 30, 2021, 09:46:28 AM
We all manage to forget that a majority of Americans thought peace with the Nazis was acceptable and that we shouldn't intervene in World War Two.
Lest someone think the US were composed of Nazi sympathizers, it's important to know that the US was going through an isolationist period after the crash of '29 when those polls were taken.  And although as a nation, along with the rest of the free world, we should have known better, the fact is, as a group we didn't.  The news from Europe didn't penetrate, we were too busy sorting out domestic issues.  By the time the evidence was better presented, we were in denial.  Sounds a little too damned familiar for sure.

From the history I've read, the US had plenty of Nazi sympathizers. I will never know enough to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff of US history, so I mostly just look at numbers. I think if I were a pollster I'd think even less of the average run of humanity.

You say that you mostly look at the numbers, but the polls don't tell us what percentage of the US population were Nazi sympathizers in 1939.  So, your statement that the US had plenty of Nazi sympathizers is really based on inference.  (admittedly, you might be right depending on how you characterize "plenty")

I happen to think most Americans and especially those of the the WWII generation are/were pretty good people overall.

You're a marketing guy, what would you have done/or do differently to sell the vaccine?  And, I don't want to hear "you can't fix stupid"...

Having watched the gov't lie, threaten, cajole, lurch, and stumble I know what doesn't work. The NPIs have only driven a wedge in our society.

I'm not a marketing guy, but I think the best way would have been brutal honesty:

"Covid is here, the only way to get past it is through - you will likely not be able to avoid it. So get vaccinated because we cannot stop this thing and the vaccines reduce the chances of you getting seriously sick."

That does two things, 1- eliminates the belief that we can "squash" the virus, because one of the things driving society apart is our hubris that we can personally effect the outcome (if we all just bla, bla bla).  and 2 -lets people know they will probably get it and thus their health choice is important.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Bean on July 30, 2021, 10:05:38 AM
... I think the best way would have been brutal honesty:

Yes, without question, the so called noble lies have been counter productive.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Oahuwaterwalker on July 30, 2021, 10:14:37 AM
..
Only epidemiologists care about the herd or the fact that a few million people will have their lives shortened.
..

A strong immune system can not only protect an individual against illnesses, but, in the case of viruses, help to prevent asymptomatic infection (and consequently transmission) as well.

In the study linked in my previous post, Vitamin D suplementation lowered SARS-CoV2 infection numbers by 40%. Unfortunately results like this are not promoted enough.

Your post implies a causal relationship between Vitamin D and lowered SARS. In fact, that's not what the study claims. Based on a speed read (and a background in statistical analysis) they found a statistical significance that suggests that Vitamin D might be a beneficial factor. Statistical significance is a low bar and a far cry from causation. They also noted in the limitations of the study they acknowledged their inability to account for other co-variates (i.e. "we don't know what other countless variables might have been present in our sample").

I'm with you in being hopeful that we can identify ways to protect ourselves, our loved ones, and communities through health based alternatives (I also jumped at the first chance to get vaccinated), but there are very significant limitations to this type of study.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Carpediem on July 30, 2021, 11:12:20 AM
Your post implies a causal relationship between Vitamin D and lowered SARS. In fact, that's not what the study claims.

Fair enough, let me rephrase it: "SARS-CoV2 infection numbers were 40% lower in the supplementation groups." That's good enough for me.

And congrats for actually taking the time to read and analyze the study.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Tom on July 30, 2021, 01:19:16 PM
Here's something from todays New York times news letter.

Quote
Not in control
Consider these Covid-19 mysteries:

In India — where the Delta variant was first identified and caused a huge outbreak — cases have plunged over the past two months.

A similar drop may now be underway in Britain. There is no clear explanation for these declines.

In the U.S., cases started falling rapidly in early January. The decline began before vaccination was widespread and did not follow any evident changes in Americans’ Covid attitudes.

In March and April, the Alpha variant helped cause a sharp rise in cases in the upper Midwest and Canada. That outbreak seemed poised to spread to the rest of North America — but did not.

This spring, caseloads were not consistently higher in parts of the U.S. that had relaxed masking and social distancing measures (like Florida and Texas) than in regions that remained vigilant.

Large parts of Africa and Asia still have not experienced outbreaks as big as those in Europe, North America and South America.

‘Much, much milder’

Over the course of this pandemic, I have found one of my early assumptions especially hard to shake. It’s one that many other people seem to share — namely, that a virus always keeps spreading, eventually infecting almost the entire population, unless human beings take actions to stop it. And this idea does have crucial aspects of truth. Social distancing and especially vaccination can save lives.

But much of the ebb and flow of a pandemic cannot be explained by changes in human behavior. That was true with influenza a century ago, and it is true with Covid now. An outbreak often fizzles mysteriously, like a forest fire that fails to jump from one patch of trees to another.

Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: PonoBill on July 30, 2021, 01:35:58 PM
You're a marketing guy, what would you have done/or do differently to sell the vaccine?  And, I don't want to hear "you can't fix stupid"...

It's really quite simple. Long before the Cambridge Analytics people started using Facebook data to radically influence elections my company invented a simple tool I called "Autodemagogue". We demonstrated that we could take ten short neutral articles and by simply arranging their order according to survey data we collected on the issues the recipient considered most important, we could gain a strongly positive response. In other words, we could make them believe (as Cambridge Analytics did) that Jair Bolsonaro was their guy because he thought like them. Even though he absolutely did not.

Of course, we only used it for good (making money for me) but there is far more data available now, and it would be trivial, and relatively inexpensive, to pump exactly the kind of stories people would need to see (even if they never read a word) straight to their unreasoning brain to decide that vaccination makes sense for them. The aim is not to inform, it's to sell.

Marketers can make leotards for men a fashion item, can get old men to wear T-shirts that proclaim they are old men, squeeze women into spanx, popularize Hard Kamboucha.

This is much easier.

Oh, and Carpe Diem--as your marketing consultant, I'd say despite the thought-provoking nature of most of your comments, posting a picture of a sheep is code for "I'm a dick, don't listen to me".

Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: PonoBill on July 30, 2021, 02:06:14 PM
I just read this excellent and approachable article from Kaiser on the delta mutation and related issues. This falls into the "holy shit" category. We've got great tech to combat the virus (good) and a world full of petri dishes (bad). https://khn.org/.../unraveling-the-mysterious-mutations.../

I've been unraveling articles on transmissibility and hazard of Delta. Two things seem obvious. The data (and studies) on transmissibility are statistical at best (1000 times more contagious) but the data on viral load in the respiratory passages are not. I was not aware that counting virii is feasible, common, and accurate, but it is, and the viral load in people with Delta--vaccinated and unvaccinated, is 1000 times greater than plain-vanilla COVID19. The correlation seems kind of obvious. Multiplying the factors together, your chances of getting Covid in a closed space with unvaccinated, unmasked people is somewhere close to 100 percent. With masked, unvaccinated people it's still damned high. You may not want to call them plague rats if you'd like to positively influence people, but it's a good idea to think of them that way.

I think I need to start wearing the stupid mask again, and avoiding closed spaces with people whose fundamental intelligence and level of social responsibility is not known to me. Diane and I are both vaccinated, and I don't expect to kaack from this stuff even if I get it, but she doesn't have my goat-level Defcon-5 immune system.

Fuck.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Carpediem on July 30, 2021, 03:25:30 PM
Oh, and Carpe Diem--as your marketing consultant, I'd say despite the thought-provoking nature of most of your comments, posting a picture of a sheep is code for "I'm a dick, don't listen to me".
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61deFkRn-dL._AC_SX425_.jpg)
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: TallDude on July 30, 2021, 05:48:28 PM
What I suspected on my OP looks to be the case. Data shows the Pfizer vaccine can drop to 83.7% effective within four to six months. Can you say Booster Shot?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/pfizer-says-immunity-can-drop-to-83-within-four-months-in-people-who-got-its-covid-19-shot-further-bolstering-the-company-case-for-a-booster/ar-AAMHZHM?ocid=winp1taskbar
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Oahuwaterwalker on July 30, 2021, 07:06:52 PM
Your post implies a causal relationship between Vitamin D and lowered SARS. In fact, that's not what the study claims.

Fair enough, let me rephrase it: "SARS-CoV2 infection numbers were 40% lower in the supplementation groups." That's good enough for me.

And congrats for actually taking the time to read and analyze the study.

I'm always game for learning more about things like this and wanted to be respectful to your position by reading the article before stating my opinion.

That said, I think you are still confusing what that quote actually means. Unfortunately, stats articles like this can leave a lot of room for people to misinterpret them. Essentially, they are saying something(s) about the group that supplemented Vitamin D and a relationship to lower infection numbers. They did not say it was Vitamin D that kept infections low. Where they mention limitations to the study, they acknowledge that they couldn't control for other possible factors. For example, it could be that people who supplement also are more active, more fit, or spend more time outdoors, etc.

My point is that there is nothing in this article that indicates taking Vitamin D as a supplement is likely to change anything about your chances of getting sick with COVID, just that there's a connection.

I just wouldn't rely on it to keep you from catching or spreading covid.





Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Carpediem on July 31, 2021, 02:29:38 AM
I can see your point regarding lifestyle/supplementation, but as far as I understand it the study took into account public healthcare system data, ie if one buys it online because of his/her lifestyle it wouldn't show up there. Also, some of the matched covariates include 25OHD sufficiency, demographical data, cigarette smoking, obesity, etc.

As for the reliability of cohorts, it could be argued that the effect of unknown variables, as important and unknown as it may be, tends do diminish the larger a sample is, and one of the strenghts of this study is its size. Sure, it can't imply causation, but as cautious as the authors tried to be on the conclusion, they dared to say supplementation seems to be "beneficial against SARS-CoV2 infection, COVID-19 severity and COVID-19 mortality in patients achieving serum 25OHD levels ≥ 30 ng/ml".
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: PonoBill on July 31, 2021, 08:02:59 AM
For those who consider the KHN article too long to read (really??) here's a capsule. The delta mutation (93% of new infections in the USA are now delta) incubation period is 4 days vs CV19 6, people infected with CV19 infected 2 people on average, with delta it's 6, the P631R mutation increases the viral load by 1000 times, the D950N mutation may cause damage to more organs. The N-terminal mutation makes monoclonal antibodies less effective for treatment. And in summary, Dr. William Haseltine, a former Harvard Medical School professor who helped design treatments for HIV/AIDS.

“It’s getting better, and we’re making it better,” he said. “Having half the population vaccinated and half unvaccinated and unprotected — that is the exact experiment I would design if I were a devil and trying to design a vaccine-busting virus.”
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: PonoBill on July 31, 2021, 08:24:20 AM
I've also been reading studies on mutation rates, I found this one particularly useful, mostly because I understand almost all the words: https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.3000003. The news there is good and bad. High replication rates mean more mutations, but mutations are fundamentally replication mistakes. It's not uncommon for high mutation rates to doom an organism by passing on mutations that favor replication (and take over the population like Delta has) but ultimately mean the replicating code gets scrambled so the virus may be one or few mistakes away from not being able to replicate at all. Essentially the mutation that speeds up replication and mutation leaves the virus closer to self-destruction.

Unfortunately, RNA viruses like coronavirus are more tolerant to high mutation rates and can stay closer to an optimal peak, mostly because they are just code. DNA viruses are more like code plus operating system, so mutation is more frequently disastrous.

At least that's how my geek brain restates what I've read.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: PonoBill on July 31, 2021, 09:48:45 AM
Oh, and Carpe Diem--as your marketing consultant, I'd say despite the thought-provoking nature of most of your comments, posting a picture of a sheep is code for "I'm a dick, don't listen to me".
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61deFkRn-dL._AC_SX425_.jpg)

https://www.ponostyle.com/thinking-critcally/
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Bean on July 31, 2021, 05:44:45 PM
Impressive stuff Bill.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: PonoBill on August 02, 2021, 07:54:59 AM
Wow, the anti-vaccine rap now is that the vaccines don't work because there are breakthroughs. There's no upper bound for stupidity. Delta is 1000 times more transmissible. Put a few hundred people in a confined space with one unmasked, unvaccinated covid-infected person for a few hours and they are going to get beaucoup virus. 1000 times more virus in the spreader's respiratory system, getting sprayed everywhere with every cough, sneeze, loud laugh, or breath.

From here it gets uglier. Vaccine mandates (because the government doesn't rule by persuasion), mask mandates, and in the fall--2020 redux.

Shit.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: mrbig on August 02, 2021, 08:21:58 AM
At least you don't live in FL!

Desantis wants to kill everyone..👽
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: PonoBill on August 02, 2021, 10:31:25 AM
Giving people the option of weekly Covid tests as an alternative to vaccination will immediately double the vaccination rate. I had a Covid test today to clear me for a colonoscopy on Thursday. Yikes. I forgot how uncomfortable that is. If the testers go just a little deeper up my nose they'd be swabbing where my tonsils used to be. My eyes watered for ten minutes. Colonoscopy? No big deal. Covid test? No thank you. 
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: TallDude on August 02, 2021, 10:59:47 AM
It's like trying to diagnose a problem with car that has a flat tire. There are no vaccinated people being hospitalized. If you've been vaccinated and you get it like my wife, her co-workers, and our friends kids, the symptoms are almost nothing to a 24hr fever, some congestion and a temporary loss of taste and smell. That's it.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: eastbound on August 02, 2021, 12:00:07 PM
ive worn my mask when inside among people without interruption, and ive was double pfizer vaxed months ago

there is no downside at all from wearing a mask, and it may help
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Subber on August 03, 2021, 10:25:22 AM
It's like trying to diagnose a problem with car that has a flat tire. There are no vaccinated people being hospitalized. If you've been vaccinated and you get it like my wife, her co-workers, and our friends kids, the symptoms are almost nothing to a 24hr fever, some congestion and a temporary loss of taste and smell. That's it.

And, the Delta variant, while more contagious, has symptoms that aren't as virulent as the original?
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: PonoBill on August 03, 2021, 11:11:10 AM
It's like trying to diagnose a problem with car that has a flat tire. There are no vaccinated people being hospitalized. If you've been vaccinated and you get it like my wife, her co-workers, and our friends kids, the symptoms are almost nothing to a 24hr fever, some congestion and a temporary loss of taste and smell. That's it.

And, the Delta variant, while more contagious, has symptoms that aren't as virulent as the original?

Actually no, though it's been widely reported as otherwise. The treatment of Covid patients has progressed enormously since the first spooky days. One treatment that helps people who are sinking fast is monoclonal antibodies. They are less effective with Delta. Also, there appears to be substantially more and varied organ damage, which is bad news for younger patients. The D950 mutation is likely the culprit though either the far greater viral load (1000 times more) and immune storms might be the culprits, or just contribute to the mess. Separating out something as subjective as "less virulent" from all the other factors is not easy.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Bean on August 04, 2021, 07:03:59 AM
Elanor Roosevelt said, "Freedom makes a huge requirement of every human being. With freedom comes responsibility..."

In this pandemic it could not be more clear, we have the responsibility and the means, to protect each other.  Shirking the vaccine is an abdication of our responsibility and along with it, our freedoms.

We protect our freedoms by exercising responsible judgement, or we allow our freedoms to be eroded by additional laws and regulations.  We self-regulate responsibly or become regulated. 

Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Admin on August 08, 2021, 02:27:11 AM
Elanor Roosevelt said, "Freedom makes a huge requirement of every human being. With freedom comes responsibility..."

In this pandemic it could not be more clear, we have the responsibility and the means, to protect each other.  Shirking the vaccine is an abdication of our responsibility and along with it, our freedoms.

We protect our freedoms by exercising responsible judgement, or we allow our freedoms to be eroded by additional laws and regulations.  We self-regulate responsibly or become regulated.

That is a great post, Bean.  This goes way beyond masks and vax.  It is both sides.  Rights and Freedoms?  We have politicians that are paralyzed on so many issues.  I am on board with the underlying issues of BLM, but to the point that non stop protests have our cities boarded up (leaving out the defund lunacy)?   I get the difficulties of the Homeless crisis, but to the point where parks, businesses, and city blocks are crippled and the entirety becomes a dump site?  Liberties and rights are not endless.  Many that are commonly repeated never existed.

Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: SUP Leave on August 11, 2021, 08:14:53 AM
Over the last few days government agencies and private businesses have started to mandate vaccination for employees. The backlash has been interesting. For example there are nurses all over social media posting long messages about going from "heroes" of the pandemic to villains, because of their vax status. As I stated above earlier in this thread I only know a few unvaccinated people, 1 is a nurse, the other two had Covid.

I mean the government really doesn't have any other bullets left in the chamber regarding this (outside of the point of a spear), they certainly have botched the roll out and the advertising. The people who haven't got the shot who are in healthcare are likely not getting it because of a pretty specific reason, and so forcing them to vax, may be a bit tricky. I mean, you can't have nurses walk off the job if on the other hand we are saying that hospitals are overwhelmed.

My feeling is if you create a mandate and only 60% of the people mandated actually follow it (masks, vax etc). It is a garbage mandate to begin with. Try something else. Something like saying "when we reach 70% vax we will have no further restrictions, ever" and stick to it. The problem is no one really believes them on any account.

Now we are circling back towards masks and lockdowns which have done little good, at great cost (dividing our society). When a simple free vaccine is available everywhere.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Admin on August 11, 2021, 10:01:27 AM
My feeling is if you create a mandate and only 60% of the people mandated actually follow it (masks, vax etc). It is a garbage mandate to begin with.

It is necessary and overdue.  I have zero problem with presenting the unvaccinated and unmasked with the long list of things that they will not be allowed to do.  They are welcome to make their vaccination choice but they alone will live with it - or not.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Bean on August 11, 2021, 10:33:49 AM
An oak bookcase placed at the curb with a FREE sign on it will garner no interest, while the same piece with $10 price tag will be snatched-up immediately.

I'm sure if we started shipping out our supply (and we should to the extent possible), some fence-sitters might take notice.   
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: gone_foiling on August 11, 2021, 11:40:06 AM
My feeling is if you create a mandate and only 60% of the people mandated actually follow it (masks, vax etc). It is a garbage mandate to begin with.

It is necessary and overdue.  I have zero problem with presenting the unvaccinated and unmasked with the long list of things that they will not be allowed to do.  They are welcome to make their vaccination choice but they alone will live with it - or not.

That’s fucked up Admin. You would have loved being in the USSR. Don’t ask me how I know.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Admin on August 11, 2021, 12:32:38 PM
Yes, your right to infect and host mutation is being trampled on.  Just like it was in the USSR :)
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Hdip on August 11, 2021, 01:19:04 PM
If you travel to parts of Central and South America you will need a yellow fever vaccine and carry the card in your passport. Precedent is already set. People just think this is new for some reason.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: SUP Leave on August 11, 2021, 01:31:37 PM
My feeling is if you create a mandate and only 60% of the people mandated actually follow it (masks, vax etc). It is a garbage mandate to begin with.

It is necessary and overdue.  I have zero problem with presenting the unvaccinated and unmasked with the long list of things that they will not be allowed to do.  They are welcome to make their vaccination choice but they alone will live with it - or not.

Easy to have the righteous indignation Admin, but that plan won't work. The unvaxxed make up some portion (20 to 30%?) of the economy (healthcare, transportation, etc) and if you drop them out of it, what is next?  Governments and businesses would have to backtrack on the mandates, and it will be just another lurch and stumble that erodes trust.

I also agree that vax for access has been around a long time. And if this was a vaccine that was a one time, or once every 10 year deal, I can see this as part of the program. But this one is more like the flu shot, in that we are chasing a mutation all the time. Something like yellow fever is different, it is yellow fever, caused by mosquitoes. How it spreads and where it is located is well known and isolated. Much easier to sell.

What would work is for the unvaxxed to see their friends and neighbors dropping like flies (self preservation) or vax at gunpoint (forced). I don't like either option. An untenable mandate just makes liars out of good people.

Once Delta peaks and fades I am sure that versions CV Delta Pro Plus XL and CV Alpha 2019 Digitally Remastered for 2021 are already in the wind and this can go on ad infinitum. They just found a virus that was about 32,0000 years old in  Siberia.


Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Admin on August 11, 2021, 02:25:59 PM
The unvaxxed make up some portion (20 to 30%?) of the economy (healthcare, transportation, etc) and if you drop them out of it, what is next? 

The real # should be considered the fully vaccinated 50.5%.  Partial vaccination looks to be 33% effective against Delta.  This is the course forward and as you have noted, it is underway.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: gone_foiling on August 12, 2021, 04:49:14 AM
https://youtu.be/TBRLUGMeBL4

Peace ✌️ everybody. I am sure some of you will love it.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Admin on August 13, 2021, 04:23:05 AM
Slightly less than 40% of the country's adult population is not fully vaccinated, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

That is an interesting #.  It should be very possible to get the 2nd dose in a lot these partial dosers.  That is a big chunk of more willing people who are essentially unvaccinated now.   Getting them to completion will be a great help. 

https://us.yahoo.com/news/supreme-court-declines-request-indiana-220156022.html
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: SUP Leave on August 13, 2021, 08:08:15 AM
I thought that once you had your first dose, that the second dose was scheduled at that time. Are people just getting the first dose when they are at Walgreens for something, and then not scheduling the next one? They are just figuring to get it the next time they come by?

I had a conversation with my sister last night. I never knew she was unvaxxed until last night. She got CV in October 2020 and has no intention of getting the vax. She is stubborn and I would imagine would only get it if she had a gun to her head. She is a dental hygienist. Has been working in open mouths every day throughout the pandemic. In WA state anyone in the health field has to be vaccinated by sometime this fall or they have to be tested every other day, or fired. My sister told her bosses that under no circumstance would she do either and that she would quit.

Her boss gave about a 3 second effort to convince her otherwise, but knew it would not work. A seasoned Dental Hygienist is a cash cow, so he just decided they would let it run. It is not like there is a bench of them waiting to fill these roles.

That is just one of thousands of n=1s regarding this.

This public/private vaccine mandate and punishments will be a total flop. There has to be a better solution.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Tom on August 13, 2021, 08:12:56 AM
I question the accuracy of the percentage.  Both my wife and I got our first vaccinations in February. There was a shortage for our second shot so we went with a different provider than our first.  I'm sure each provider is reporting us as having two first shots and no second shot.
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: Admin on August 13, 2021, 08:27:02 AM
This is a pretty good article for both questions:

https://fortune.com/2021/01/05/covid-19-vaccine-tracking-second-shot-data/
Title: Re: Delta Variant is here...
Post by: clay on August 13, 2021, 09:18:42 AM
https://youtu.be/_n5Av3TFMFQ

https://youtu.be/mX9B-2PMZPw

https://youtu.be/TpQOuXBKmgQ

https://youtu.be/1c3zy5PD3vQ
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2021, SimplePortal