Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: SUPeter on June 24, 2021, 07:37:14 AM
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Just curious, Anybody out there riding straight tail boards for winging . How do you like them? Just about to skin my next board and its shaped to be a straight tail. I was also curious, as my shape is approximately 100L, does anybody have any experience SUP foiling on a straight tail? Its always nice to be able to foil waves when the wind dies. Thanks for any and all opinions.
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Not yet, but I'm going to find out shortly...hopefully. 🤞🏽
(https://i.imgur.com/9SN6poT.jpg?1) (https://i.imgur.com/ZxdLj3J.jpg?4)
5'4x27x102L
My thought was that the standard kick tail was basically just taking away about 7" from the amount of bottom paddling surface area I had in my other boards, and if all goes as planned, this 5'4 should paddle more like a 5'11...at least in theory wise in my pea brain. 🤔🤷♂️
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what are the stringers? Are you going to tie the foil boxes into the stringers?
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I'm converting a rockered 6'0 board to a straight tail.
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I totally agree with no kick tail. A flat rocker board will get more boat speed and require less pumping , or none to get on foil.... My new 5'3" 85 liter board from legendary shaper Dave Mel is almost done, attached is the basic shape with flat bottom ...
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not sure why chisel tails are all the rage although I suppose its an easy way to reduce volume while still maintaining deck area...my Flying Dutchman custom 75 liter has straight tail , another advantage is increased stability when board is on water in comparison to a board with chisel tail and chines
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The big bevel on the tail makes sense when you're surf foiling, especially with a low aspect, thick, slow wing. Like the GoFoil Maliko 200 or Iwa. Those foils can be popped up at a relatively slow speed by suddenly increasing the angle of attack and then flattening back out once you're flying--works fine with those foils, and the bevel makes it easier to do. Pushing ten inches of flat tail under is a bitch. As soon as you move to high aspect wings that stops working so well. Doing that pop up just stalls the wing and you bang back down.
With a wing, the bevel tail, or rocker, or anything other than a flat tail is just slowing down the board. You don't need to drastically change the AOA to get up, just gain some speed and bias your weight a little back and up you come. Bevel tails don't hurt all that much, but they don't help either.
Chines are a bit pointless too. With a surf foil, they might help you lift off progressively since as soon as the foil starts lifting the board gets skinnier. My new flying dutchman wing board has a little convex shape that I kind of wish wasn't there. I think it saves my ass on a touchdown. I'm not sure that's the feature that permits me to touch down without much consequence, but something is doing it.
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Here's Armstrong's opinion about straight tailed wing boards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25r9afJ6xdQ
https://www.armstrongfoils.com/wing-sup-boards/
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holy crap - Armstrong did it - that board has every single detail I've been looking for and a few I didn't know to ask for. Through handle??? better fin boxes? yes please
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I like the through handle. Here's a good shot of the tail. Click the pic to zoom in.
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After looking at the pics in the website there are a couple things i do not like that much.
The beveled rails and recessed deck.
Vertical rails and flat deck like DW boards would be more to my liking.
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holy crap - Armstrong did it - that board has every single detail I've been looking for and a few I didn't know to ask for. Through handle??? better fin boxes? yes please
Pretty much what I was thinking too. On the SUP wing range I'd prefer a sharper nose to help punch through our chop and a narrower overall width, but otherwise look really good to me.
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I’ve got three sessions logged on my new 60L Armstrong and I’m blown away. All the good stuff going on justifies the cost in my opinion. Haven’t had it out in any big bumps yet, so we will see if the longer tail catches much.
The forward tracks and fast shape makes my 1125 a low wind wing. Getting it up in around 13mph with a 5M easy.
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Looking forward to using my new Armstrong board which should arrive next week. I am currently on my 4th custom board and still not able to get the mast forward enough. It is about time someone figured this out.
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Sorry, no pics yet. Ill try later. Board is not finished but good enough to take out. Where to start?
Its a heck of a lot lighter than my waterlogged 120L "Fugly". I don't have an accurate scale so don't ask. first day was in 7-10 kts, barely ridable but with my large foil and a 6M Echo, I eked out a few good rides. Even in those low winds. the boards faster hull speed was immediately noticeable. Pumping consisted of lunging the board forward to break form drag, and pumping again to lift board from water. Quite easy considering the low wind. Nailed it on both foot strap insert placements and mast placement(Tuttle). Control was better than expected having to do with the low swing weight.
Day 2- 15Kts+, continuous. Now for the real fun! Just point and shoot! Most times I just let the board accelerate to planing speed and then slowly rise out of the water. If that wasn't quick enough, Id throw in a small hop or 2. This was extra-ordinary for me. Too easy! Touchdowns were as expected, almost unnoticed. With the higher than deck line nose portion, pop ups were automatic. Unexpectedly, the front edge would rise and pop out quickly when i would accidently drive it into the water when foiling at high speeds with the board on a steep angle. Not that I have many tricks under my belt but all the usual maneuvers(jibes,tacks,360's) felt a lot easier with such a lightweight board.
Durability- Ill throw this in there only because I accidently threw my board into some large, sharp edge granite boulders. Navigating my way through these rockweed and barnacle encrusted rocks left me struggling for balance. with my ankle in a hole, it was either drop the board or risk breaking my ankle. Believe me when I say, that hurt me more than the board. After very careful inspection, I still can not find any damage. Luckily, the impact occurred mostly on the lapped rails which consist of 2-3 layers 4 oz glass and 2 layers of 4.8 oz carbon/Innegra. I swear by this shit now.
This is all I can think of at the moment. Cheers!
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Let’s try this!
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Let’s try this.
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One more
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The forward tracks and fast shape makes my 1125 a low wind wing. Getting it up in around 13mph with a 5M easy.
It’s the straight tail making the 1125 have improved low end. Track location is flight balance. It is what it needs to be for that. We should all want perfect flight balance. It’s unfortunate as we finally put an end to the Tuttle versus tracks war, we now have a few brands diverging on track locations for perfect flight balance. Chinook now has a 16” track. Then we need foot strap inserts 12” long….Ugh, heavier boards.
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In addition to the new board lifting free of the water very easily while winging, It also paddles onto waves with more ease than my board with the beveled tail. Feels slower under paddle (5'6" versus 6') but breaks into a planing speed quickly with a few hops. Good to know when I get skunked by the lack of wind.
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It looks awesome, Peter. What are you going to build next? Looking forward to winging with you again!
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2022 all straight tails.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51382768805_bf362054f0_h.jpg)
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The tuttle vs track war hasn't been put to an end Dwight. Some high end board companies make their boards specific to a certain foil like a Mike's Lab as you probably are aware. They have tuttle boxes. Flight balance is perfect and without the nose down effect from pitching moment when at speed like most general purpose boards ride. Tracks make sense for all purpose boards. You can always shim the base plate to decrease the nose down ride on those boards.
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Looking at the Armstrong handle made me remember to tell Mark I want the bridged handle on my new board. I have it on the bottom of my wing board, and it's simply the best. My next board will be straight tail, hard-ish rails, no bevels, no tunnels. Basically a blank with some nose rocker. Given my shitty balance I think that will permit me to go short without the board being impossible to stand on. I'm experimenting with shapes now, gluing blue foam onto the bottom of a 6' SIC board I bought that has way too much tail rocker. Like standing on a bongo board.
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Hey Bill, the straight tail is working well as a SUP too. Like cheating catching waves. Although Hawaiian waves have enough power you may not want to cheat.
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Hey Bill, the straight tail is working well as a SUP too. Like cheating catching waves. Although Hawaiian waves have enough power you may not want to cheat.
Good to know, with my geezer balance a straight tail board would be easier. I think it's best with any high-ish aspect wing. All the stuff the bevels and such were added for just don't work with HA.
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Take a look at the future :
https://www.instagram.com/p/CR3IzRUKHvv/
Advanced, long foil boxes.
Added volume at the front for paddling.
This thing goes out in 7 knt of wind. (6,5m slick).
https://www.instagram.com/p/CST5z13IkL8/
I'm not so sure about the simple design, and straight tails as they are definitely horrible for surfing, tight turns etc .
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2022 all straight tails.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51382768805_bf362054f0_h.jpg)
That are the masters , they were 5th , 20th and 22th
This are the winners:
(https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/237838680_822744555082842_1694185303114663218_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=eA67kiyetd8AX-6Sflp&_nc_ht=scontent-amt2-1.xx&oh=d6bf14375c9d333e15b0e8ea42f4ba4c&oe=614052E6)
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Old guys know easy. ;D
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Isn't that Flycat a SUP foilboard for downwinding? Long boxes give more adjustment but that adds alot of weight. Flycat boards are awesome.
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This is the napkin sketch I sent Mark Raaphorst for my new board. I figure the shaping will take about an hour, tops.
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Isn't that Flycat a SUP foilboard for downwinding? Long boxes give more adjustment but that adds alot of weight. Flycat boards are awesome.
Yes, it's for downwind/sup paddle. But I learnt a few things with these long rails/ front positions.
Danny is a master. Shape/details matter!
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Question, are the new Kalama E3 considered a straight tail board?
https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Foiling/New-Kalama-Performance-E3
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This picture shows it better...
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This is the napkin sketch I sent Mark Raaphorst for my new board. I figure the shaping will take about an hour, tops.
Looks pretty much like what i would order.
I would add rails softer/slight bevel in the front third transitioning to harder towards middle and rear.
And a bit of reverse bevel at the tail to make the board sit flat with a very centered foot position.
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I’d say no on that Kalama. Straight tail means a 90° angle from bottom to tail, and deck to tail. No bevel.
Pono and I have the same idea. Straight means you’re basically riding a rectangular block of foam a few inches thick. No bevel, nothing on the sides, flat bottom. Maybe a little bevel or rocker on the nose. As I’ve said, I’ve been super tempted to put boxes in, cut a 45° bevel in the nose and glass a 5” thick sheet of EPS.
A lot of great shapers and riders are calling BS on shaped foil boards. I’m of that mind. My foil lifts long before my board could ever plane.
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Bill's design looks really sweet, cant wait to see it and how it performs,
The PBmodel
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A lot of great shapers and riders are calling BS on shaped foil boards. I’m of that mind. My foil lifts long before my board could ever plane.
Me think so too but then I see this:
https://youtu.be/J8mjzLIj-j0
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Ah, Burchas, yes, I should clarify, I meant wing boards. Downwind boards and SUP foils still could benefit. Especially when doing stuff like that. But a wing is just a jet ski dragging us at takeoff. And to those who say wing boards are “sticky” your technique is funky I think. When I’m powered up no little touchdowns are bringing me off foil it takes a major screw up. Besides that what tall masts are for. (Prone foil surfing, sure touchdowns will take you out, so maybe you need some magic.)
I learned a crazy lesson using a giant foil with a sinker board behind a boat. I was flying the foil underwater before the board planed. I had no time to get myself “set” on the board on the water. The foil literally flew from 5 feet under to where I was out of the water on foil in one motion. The only way I could get my board to plane is to use a tiny foil and take off super slow. The “on the water” halfway point was nonexistent with the big boy. (Yes this was hilarious to watch.)
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I love comments sometimes;
from the above Riggs video
"As a foiler, I cannot over-emphasise the contrast between how simple this looks, and what it actually feels like to attempt it yourself. You might as well flap your arms and expect to fly."
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A. Jeremy. Not human.
B. pumping off flatwater with a paddle. Not doing that, never will be unless reincarnation turns out to really be a thing.
3. If I was reincarnated I'd probably come back as a walrus.
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A lot of great shapers and riders are calling BS on shaped foil boards. I’m of that mind. My foil lifts long before my board could ever plane.
Me think so too but then I see this:
https://youtu.be/J8mjzLIj-j0
You’re not wrong. Explained here. I ride small fast foils, even in light wind today.
https://youtu.be/P5Tk-2IM3Ac
And now I SUP a straight tail. It feels like a rocket launch catching waves. Ideal for the Axis HPS fast foils. Straight tail combined with HPS….5’1 paddles like a 6 footer.
https://youtu.be/CFgNojbKLQA
Doing this is easier than magically being young again.
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Pono and I have the same idea. Straight means you’re basically riding a rectangular block of foam a few inches thick. No bevel, nothing on the sides, flat bottom. Maybe a little bevel or rocker on the nose. As I’ve said, I’ve been super tempted to put boxes in, cut a 45° bevel in the nose and glass a 5” thick sheet of EPS.
A lot of great shapers and riders are calling BS on shaped foil boards. I’m of that mind. My foil lifts long before my board could ever plane.
I like your style surfcowboy. When everyone is frothing over micro details, I find it pushed me to become the contrarian. This started in early days of kite foiling and kiting in general...where the board design makes just slightly above 0% difference. As seen by the videos of riders on cafeteria trays or a chunk of 2x10 or pool toys. I think wing foiling is slightly more technical ... but not much. I am enjoying the current trend towards almost no shaping, "simple clean lines". 8) ::) :P
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... When I’m powered up no little touchdowns are bringing me off foil it takes a major screw up. Besides that what tall masts are for. (Prone foil surfing, sure touchdowns will take you out, so maybe you need some magic.)...
I'm sympathetic to the straight tail philosophy but I do think it places priority on one aspect of winging, and that's the take off.
But there are some winging activities where the board can come into contact with the water accidentally where board shape does impact outcome. I think even you recognise this, with your concession to prone foilers needing some board shaped assistance.
For example: cranking upwind with the board levered to windward in wind against tide conditions, laying down aggressive carves where the board has to get close to the water to prevent foil ventilation, landing jumps.
On the longer mast point, I have used a 100 mast a lot, and a mast that long is not without compromise. I think I prefer using the 85 as a daily driver.
Personally I'd be keen to have a straight tail in my quiver for marginal conditions especially if it means I can use a smaller 'big' foil, but once the breeze is above a solid 13+ knots and starting my Lethal and 1100 cm2 foil is doable, I'd choose to be on that because the touch down performance is more important than the take off to me as the breeze builds.
Having said that, Patrice says he developed the Lethal's tail to allow water to flow around it and off without turbulence/drag, so facilitating take off. A very different way to solving the same problem, but I do like the logic of the straight tail.
Another thought struck me - would an inflatable be considered a straight tail? With the rail release strips, their rails are quite boxy....
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You don't really need to change any other aspect of a design to have a straight tail--it's basically just the tail. I've been experimenting with a board I already own, that has some fairly extreme design elements--thin, pulled-in nose, tucked rails, lots of nose and tail rocker, etc. I'm glueing blue foam to the tail and slicing it off with hot wire tools--one that slides along the table to give a flat, no rocker tail, the other a C-shape that I run along templates to shape the profile of the tail--it was originally pulled in a lot. So far, the winner in all the odd designs I've tried (stepped, bevel, rounded bevel, straight with less pull in, swallow) is a square box, flat from the start of the rocker, with straight rails like the napkin drawing. The difference in balance and liftoff is HUGE. It comes off the water like it's got a prop. It literally feels powered. If I come off foil and touch down in the middle of a jibe it pops back up as soon as the wing starts to draw--no pumping, no flapping, just zoom, up.
For everything else--banking hard, recovering from an over foiling slam down, hiking out upwind--no change. I thought the square back would hit when I hiked over. If it does I can't feel any effect.
I'm as shocked as anyone. This is really a revelation.
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Good on you for doing all those experiments.
Another one Ive done. Shaped surfboard rails, then an identical board with square rails. No shaping, just a vertical wall and rounded at the deck about 3/4” for comfort and durability.
The non-shaped rail had twice the stability. It also paddles as straight as a board 1 foot longer than it is.
But the rail does need some slight bevel up front to prevent catching. Just a little bit. The board still looks like a giant block of foam.
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...
I'm as shocked as anyone. This is really a revelation.
This is why I enjoy this forum. Real insight. Awesome. Thanks for sharing and doing the work! Will file all that in the 'need to remember' box, especially as I'm planning on building my first board this winter, and a straight tail sure does make shaping easier!
Appreciate that not everyone wants to ride small foils but for me that's a big win and if straight tails help that then hopefully everyone can be a winner! Each time I've dropped a foil size has been an eye opener (in more than one way!), and I think I've finally reached the point where I don't need to go any smaller for a daily driver. I'm so in tune with the Fluid LS, and it's performance is so spot on that I'm finally starting to get into the flow state where I'm just thinking about what I want to do rather than how I'm going to do it, or getting distracted by what it's doing in chop.
If a straight tail board comes into my quiver maybe I'll get the Fluid M (900 cm², 0.7L) if the board can get me up easily on it in 15 knots, but I don't think the additional benefits will be that great until it starts getting to around 20-25 knots+ when I won't need the straight tail anyway. If it lowers the range I can reliably use the LS, that would be a bigger win I think but am open minded.
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Here's my setup with the stepped tail, pulled in (fail!) and the template (before cutting) for the plain square flat tail. I swiped my DC power supply from my electronics room to power the cutter. Works great. I can adjust the current precisely to give precision cuts with a near-zero kerf.
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Not to be left behind, I too got into the "Flat Tail Follies". ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/NZZdgRw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jJGbyCs.jpg?2)
(https://i.imgur.com/UmhKylS.jpg?1)
5'4x27x102L
Seemed to paddle as expected yesterday the first time out with it, but my mast setup/guess was wrong, and the conditions were pretty mixed up for a decent comparison on how well it lifted off and surfed.
Might have had the mast too far back, as I found myself having to move my feet so far forward just to get it to level out to keep from stalling once in the air, but that might have been just the really wonky conditions I was fighting against...just have to see. 🤔
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I love the straight tail concept but too much volume to the rear creates problems.
I want the board to float flat/slight nose up with my feet in takeoff=foil position.
I f you place the foil with the KDmaui method this is going to be a very centered position.
With excess volume concentrated on the tail the float trim will be nose down with feet in takeoff position,not good.
Armstrong solved this with a brilliant reverse tail bevel.Which,surprise,surprise,is exactly what every surfboard and windsurf board uses since day one.
I had to cut some foam from my frankentail to make it float correctly.
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I love the straight tail concept but too much volume to the rear creates problems.
I had to cut some foam from my frankentail to make it float correctly.
Can you tell me how you have attached the foam (EVA foam)? Glue of some kind?
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Yes,standard (Bostik brand) contact glue.
It has been there for a few months now,no problems.
Foam is EVA, from a puzzle like fit together gym flooring leftover.Grey part is less dense.
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I love the straight tail concept but too much volume to the rear creates problems.
Not hard to correct with a clean sheet of paper. Your issue is adding it to a board not designed from scratch to be a flat tail
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I love the straight tail concept but too much volume to the rear creates problems.
Not hard to correct with a clean sheet of paper. Your issue is adding it to a board not designed from scratch to be a flat tail
Yes.
And it is a wing only board, extra tail flotation is probably very good for getting into surf waves on a Supfoil.
BTW my stick on foam tail was an attemp to copy just one of your design ideas DW.
You have been way ahead of the industry with innegra,real solid foil boxes,flat bottoms,vertical rails and straight tail design.
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Looks like some of the new Indiana wing boards are going with the basic shape and flat tail too.
https://shop.indiana-paddlesurf.com/foil-boards/wing-sup-foil-boards/indiana-wing-foil-150-carbon.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMIPjmSVsZk
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Looks like some of the new Indiana wing boards are going with the basic shape and flat tail too.
Yup, Gunnar is a big believer in what I call, “the Dwight boards”.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiLq2C1jbPg&t=52s
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I wanna build one of these boards with XPS and just cut it til I find the limit of what I can ride. Our crew has been discussing this as a way to prototype without having to glass up 4 boards only to find out they are wrong.
I’m also not convinced the way we build boards is right or the final iteration of this whole thing. Tiny canoes made of fragile composites. Longboard boxes are a joke. There’s got to be a better way to do all of this. That guy is a prophet lol.
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I wanna build one of these boards with XPS and just cut it til I find the limit of what I can ride. Our crew has been discussing this as a way to prototype without having to glass up 4 boards only to find out they are wrong.
I’m also not convinced the way we build boards is right or the final iteration of this whole thing. Tiny canoes made of fragile composites. Longboard boxes are a joke. There’s got to be a better way to do all of this. That guy is a prophet lol.
Great ideas.
I would like to see somebody come up with a modular design.
A flat solid base,the lenght&width of your footstance and then EVA foam modules(like softtop boards) to be attached on top.
Different volumes and shapes for SUP, Wing or Surf foiling.
The base could be really small and strong made of carbon and woodcore.
Don't know how heavy the result would be though,maybe too much.
Throwing 3 foamies in the car and a "base plate" could be very practical vs babying our carbon eggshells.
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Now you’ve done it, Dontsink.
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,37528.0.html
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I wanna build one of these boards with XPS and just cut it til I find the limit of what I can ride. Our crew has been discussing this as a way to prototype without having to glass up 4 boards only to find out they are wrong.
I’m also not convinced the way we build boards is right or the final iteration of this whole thing. Tiny canoes made of fragile composites. Longboard boxes are a joke. There’s got to be a better way to do all of this. That guy is a prophet lol.
Hence my test mule. A good example of the wrong board is the right board. This SIC board has way too much tail rocker, and the nose and tail are pulled in a lot. That made it ideal to experiment with gluing on slabs of blue foam and trimming them to be what I want. I've added a sliding bevel cutter and a big C-shaped hotwire cutter to trace templates. I've got a roll of Formica that I didn't need for my stupid moho project, and it turns out to be great for making templates. I cut it with a saber saw and sand the edges. If you push the wire against it it doesn't notch and grab the wire as wood veneer does. I don't know what temperature this stuff melts at, but nichrome wire doesn't get into the same zip code.
With the pulled-in tail, I have lots of room for variations, and the tail rocker let me try all kinds of shit that didn't work. I'm glaring at the nose now, thinking I should try some flatter nose variations, but I think the rocker is actually helpful. the flat tail raises the rear end and shoves the nose down.
I do note that the foil position seems much less critical with the flat tail. I can't help but think if I were building a board for myself I wouldn't use mast tracks. I'd use spools built up out of nesting carbon fiber tubes glassed into the deck and bottom--the same way I weld tubing inside hollow metal structures (like racecar A-arms) to allow through bolting without crushing. No PVC, no mast tracks. It would take some design fiddling to make it lighter, but it certainly can be. As long as you didn't need adjustability it would be fine.
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See this Ponobill,very similar to what you wrote.
https://kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=196&t=2388827&p=896007&hilit=Through+bolt#p896007
I was planning to do this to an old surfboard but then Gong discounted the Matata EPS and i took the easy way.
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So friggin pathetic today I had to use my 5’1 x 28.5 straight tail SUP to wing in 5 to 13 mph wind. The SUP version has more planing surface than my personal wing board.
https://youtu.be/0jVRiEjpbzs
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In my humble opinion, straight tails full square rails are the best solution for flat water.
But, in waves, jumping, etc; we will see a lot of new designs and "magic" concepts; definitely not square.
I'm pointing to under 19 inches wide and pintail on my new board.
Will see.
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I only wing in above 15 knots, 4 mtr is my biggest wing at 80kg, I’m currently on a 95ltr Naish. Having never tried a straight tail board, just wondering if there is much of an advantage for high wind swell riding as that is all I do.
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I only wing in above 15 knots, 4 mtr is my biggest wing at 80kg, I’m currently on a 95ltr Naish. Having never tried a straight tail board, just wondering if there is much of an advantage for high wind swell riding as that is all I do.
Probably not. Once you have proper wind a bedroom door will fly nicely too.
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If you need stability and a longer/wider sweet spot, the flat tail is worthwhile. If you're riding HA wings and need a lot of speed to take off, then flat tail is worthwhile. Otherwise, everything works. Once you're up in the air it would be nice if the board would disappear. Someday we might do this like J.O.B. --taking off on a disposable Wavestorm and switching to a tiny shortboard. Or maybe an inflatable sofa.
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Not to be left behind, I too got into the "Flat Tail Follies". ;D
5'4x27x102L
Seemed to paddle as expected yesterday the first time out with it, but my mast setup/guess was wrong, and the conditions were pretty mixed up for a decent comparison on how well it lifted off and surfed.
Might have had the mast too far back, as I found myself having to move my feet so far forward just to get it to level out to keep from stalling once in the air, but that might have been just the really wonky conditions I was fighting against...just have to see. 🤔
Update: Yep, the mast was too far back, and is still too far back jammed all the way forward in the boxes. :(
Somewhere along the way I was told that with a straight tail board the boxes need to go way back from where they'd usually be, so I called in a late change order, and had them installed 2" further back from where I originally wanted/need them (the bolts/t-nuts are actually an inch too far forward when I redid the math after taking the picture)...
(https://i.imgur.com/5WfMMg9.jpg?1)
...and that was still 3" farther forward than they were "supposed to be", but I just couldn't bring myself to move them - that - far back. :o
So while they might need to go waaay back for winging (have to wait on some wind for that report), but that's not at all the case for surf/sup foiling. Either that, or I completely misunderstood to whole straight tail/boxes thing that was explained to me. :-[
Because while it paddles and gets off the water really well as expected, but once in flight, I don't have the lift/glide I'd usually have with the boxes in their normal, further forward position. The only why to keep it up with the slower waves we've had recently, was to continually pump it. Getting it in and out of turns was miserably slow and clunky as well.
So back to the shop to get them moved forward, and reassess after that. Fortunately we ran the dual stringers far enough forward, so at least the R&R won't be too extensive of a job...fingers crossed.
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The center of the foil box is at 14.5". That seems in the ballpark for a 5.4. If anything, my guess would have been a little further forward than optimal.
If you have your back foot directly over the mast, your front foot is something like 2.5' in front of that, see where the stance will be on your board if you move it forward further. You will be getting pretty close to the nose.
If you are needing to move your feet far forward to keep the foil in the water surfing, then could it be you are using a foil wing too big for the waves you're in? For my high aspect foil, I am using same size for winging as for surf/sup foil. But with low aspect, I used one size larger for wing than for surf/sup, to get the extra lift -- but with the cost that it took a lot of front foot pressure to keep the foil in the water if in more significant swells.
Before you start cutting into this, you might want to do more investigation....measure the distance for other people's boards. Or go online, print out a photo of boards you like, and scale the drawing to figure out distance from tail.
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I've been playing with a lot of straight tail shapes in the computer, but I don't like the look of the rocker line that results yet. @califoilia any way you could share the rocker line you arrived at?
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The center of the foil box is at 14.5". That seems in the ballpark for a 5.4. If anything, my guess would have been a little further forward than optimal.
If you have your back foot directly over the mast, your front foot is something like 2.5' in front of that, see where the stance will be on your board if you move it forward further. You will be getting pretty close to the nose.
If you are needing to move your feet far forward to keep the foil in the water surfing, then could it be you are using a foil wing too big for the waves you're in? For my high aspect foil, I am using same size for winging as for surf/sup foil. But with low aspect, I used one size larger for wing than for surf/sup, to get the extra lift -- but with the cost that it took a lot of front foot pressure to keep the foil in the water if in more significant swells.
Before you start cutting into this, you might want to do more investigation....measure the distance for other people's boards. Or go online, print out a photo of boards you like, and scale the drawing to figure out distance from tail.
Thanks juan, and yes, the location of the boxes are pretty much determined through a formula that a buddy and myself came up with several years ago when we started going shorter, and shorter with our boards...and the past three boards I've setup (6'0, 5'7, and 5'1) have been spot on (give or take an 1/8-1/4 of an inch here or there)...he's done three boards also doing the same thing, and he's had no problem either. This was the first one I deviated using that on, and low and behold. 🤷♂️😁
It's basically under the premise, that we had setup of our original longer boards (7'+) through trial and error some 4+ years ago, and did the same when we went down several inches to our next ones. But one slow wave day at the beach, we broke out a tape measure, and started doing comparisons. What we found, was that our masts, and front foot straps were almost in the same location on the shorter boards in relation to the longer boards...the only difference was that the noses and tails had just "X" amount of inches missing fore and aft from where we were standing on them compared to the longer boards.
IOWs, if we went from a 6'0 to a 5'8 for example, that's 4" in total length difference, so we'd divide that by 2, and measured mast and foot strap locations accordingly. What we found, was that we're standing on the mast and in the foot straps in relatively the same place of the balance point of the board, just with two inches missing in front, and behind us. I say "relatively", because we use a certain percentage of the overall length of the board to get the mast location, and then measure foot strap placement accordingly from the center of it to account for our individual stance lengths.
So yes, as the boards get shorter and shorter, the mast is getting a percentage closer to the tail each time, and our front foot is getting closer and closer to the nose. This is similar to how/why prone guys are almost standing on the nose of their boards with their rear feet still over or slightly ahead of the center of the mast. You can't expect to have your feet the same distance from the nose, when the nose is now however many inches closer to the center of the board, and at least for myself, I still want my rear foot placement over the mast to be the same with the same stance length...so I have to have the mast mounted on the board accordingly to account for that, and my stance width.
That's why I said that I needed to go forward with the mast on this one, because for me stand with my foot on or slightly ahead of the mast, I have too much body weight on the rear of the board, and it doesn't want to "push over" and fly level. The only way for me to do that, is to move way forward on the board to balance it in flight, and then I'm so far in front from the center of the mast, causing it to turn terribly, and I have to keep pumping it since it doesn't want to glide level with the smaller area, HA wings that I fly in comparison to others out there (Axis 810 and 890 on a crazy short fuse with either the 380, 400HA, or 420 tails).
Hope that makes some sort of sense in the written word, much easier to show, and explain on the beach...because I know I've confused, or left something out in the translation. Lol :D
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I've been playing with a lot of straight tail shapes in the computer, but I don't like the look of the rocker line that results yet. @califoilia any way you could share the rocker line you arrived at?
I've taken the tail rocker completely out of the last 6 boards I've designed. So I arrived at zero a long time ago. :D
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armstrong rocker looks nice to the eye, but I see what you mean about zero rocker on the tail. It looks like the foil will be mounted on upward sloping tail and all the rocker will be slow to plane.
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armstrong rocker looks nice to the eye, but I see what you mean about zero rocker on the tail. It looks like the foil will be mounted on upward sloping tail and all the rocker will be slow to plane.
Don't forget that the Armstrong boxes are way forward on their new boards so the foil will likely be more parallel to the deck than the tail rocker pictured would suggest...
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Califoilia - it seems like you are making the case for an anglefoil on a small board --https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,33902.15.html -
or as option #2 Perhaps you need to ride with a rear & front strap to add that you can pull up on your rear foot
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armstrong rocker looks nice to the eye, but I see what you mean about zero rocker on the tail. It looks like the foil will be mounted on upward sloping tail and all the rocker will be slow to plane.
Yeah, the baseplate on the rocker sloping the fuse/foil down that I had to keep shimming to get it level thing, and because since we're surfing the foil and not the board...I couldn't figure out why we needed any tail rocker in a foil board anyway. 🤷♂️😊
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Califoilia - it seems like you are making the case for an anglefoil on a small board --https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,33902.15.html -
or as option #2 Perhaps you need to ride with a rear & front strap to add that you can pull up on your rear foot
#1 Ha! I loved my angledfoil, and even had him make me an Axis version...
(https://i.imgur.com/ax8n79L.jpg?1)
...but dang Axis wings turn great on their own, and having my rear foot so far behind the baseplate pivot point with them was a slashing machine...above my old man capabilities. :o ;D
#2 I've experimented with a rear strap (I always ride a front one), and found I move my rear foot around a lot, and felt trapped in it, so took it off. Now that was a year ago or so, and I don't think I was riding Axis at the time, so maybe another stab at it might not be a bad idea. Think I might give that a go a little later if this box location thing turns out to be a bust.
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It sounds more like your footstraps are in the wrong spot than your mast. Don't forget that you can play with the incidence angle of the foils as well. You're a very advanced surf foiler, and I suspect you feel a lot more tweaks than most folks would. But the foil position on the board is really only critical when you're standing around on it, during paddling, and at take-off. If you're having issues after liftoff it more or less has to be either your position on the board or the characteristics of the foil. Changing the foil position to suit flying is really another way to change foot position.
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It sounds more like your footstraps are in the wrong spot than your mast.
Changing the foil position to suit flying is really another way to change foot position.
I pretty much agree with this, especially the 2nd sentence.. Only disagreement, is that the foot strap is in the correct location....for my liking, and riding style.
Yep, I like/want to be at a certain spot or position on top of the board, and thusly, have to change the position of the mast to accommodate where I want my front foot to be in the strap.
To go back to Juan's statement about 14.5" seeming to be the right location...I move my boxes further forward than "normal"(?), and probably stand slightly closer to the nose than most...because I want the feel of having to hold the nose down slightly when at height flying down the line. With that setup, turning becomes twist, and push the nose down into the turn, then release and twist back as the nose then automatically comes up with the added lift, and out of the turn effortlessly.
With the mast in the "normal", further back position, there seemed to be too much nose out in front of the pivot point, and its corresponding swing weight to contend with. Yes, being so far forward on the board does change the way I have to takeoff, in that I have to lean back to pull the nose further out of the water just as the waves gets to me to prevent the wave lifting the tail and pushing the nose underwater where then I'm pretty much finished most times as the tipped forward foil wants to pull it even further under as we move forward.
But it's all a matter of comforts and adjustments I guess. Like I tell folks when they ask about getting the "perfect setup"..."When you get something, you give something else up". Like the old saying goes, "You can't have it all"...foiling's no different. ;D
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Hi,
I have my mast positioned at 21" from the center of the mast to the back of the board. That is a 5 .6 sup foil board.
This makes the board very alive and allows you to put your back foot behind the mast.
Perhaps it's just my preference, but moving the mast forward has been a tremendous step forward. The board turns, feel and pump like a 4,8 but still paddles like a big board.
Anyway, perhaps it's just me.
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I used to say "just shove your foil all the way forward" because that works on so many boards. Then I got my 5'11" Flying Dutchman and it was a bitch to control with the track shoved fully forward. It turned out that Kane's advice (which I initially pooh-poohed) about setting up your foil by balancing it on the center of lift and seeing if the board hangs parallel to the ground was relevant. I think that's because the center of gravity of the assembly is roughly equivalent to the center of buoyancy. And perhaps because for people who don't outweigh their board by 10X the center of mass is relevant too. In any case, standing where you have to stand to get the board up and flying simply can't be hugely different from where you need to be once you are up, unless you're able to move like a cat while you are coming up and wind up in exactly the right place.
You might want to try that before you get your board hacked up.
I understand what you're saying about tuning for turning. I'm finding the same thing downwinging on bigger swells. I want some pressure on the front foot at the start of the drop so I can shove down to accelerate down the face, then twist to turn and release a little nose pressure to bank without touching down. Without a little excess nose pressure releasing the nose a little doesn't do enough. I adjusted my "y" strap back one hole and got what I wanted. Good thing that worked, because the next spot back would have been inside the handle. Even an NSI stick on won't work there.
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Hi,
Thanks for the feedback, it's always helpful.
For your information, I'm paddling in the straps and staying on them ALL the time. So there is not a lot of motion other than balancing weight.
What you said about balancing "Kane style" makes sense, my actual Sup foil has extra flotation so maybe the reason why it works.
By the way, I tried the "Kane balancing style", which a bunch of boards (wing mainly) and friends, and literally all went back to their original position; so there it seems to be a lot more variables as position, leading foot, water start style.
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playing with some shapes and I think this might be my next board
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Less chine will make it accelerate quicker. Take inspiration from Jonny Heineken’s boards, or Sky’s 2022 boards, not Armstrong.
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http://www.newind.net/wingboard-2/
They have two wingshapes,one with stepped rails and another with straight rails.
Step rails might reduce drag on touchdowns?.
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Good ideas, thanks, will look at those shapes closer.
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Less chine will make it accelerate quicker. Take inspiration from Jonny Heineken’s boards, or Sky’s 2022 boards, not Armstrong.
What can you see these boards designs?
I found this video of Johnny Heineken from Clay.
I am wondering because Jeff Clark is now making new boards and they are a complete BOX design, looking very much like Johnny's board in this video. From this thread I suspect is that the flat, box shape gets the high aspect foils up to flight speed faster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLZkrOnQ5OM&t=101s
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What can you see these boards designs?
My take on it…
When winging came a long, some guys just pulled their old kite race boards out of the garbage pile and discovered these were better than the fancy wing boards. Those old kite race boards had tuttle boxes and were nothing more than miniature windsurf race boards. Instant winging race boards for guys riding Mike’s Lab foils. Haha
So you can just shape a miniature windsurf slalom board, minus tail cutouts. Tail cutouts were invented for TOP speed. They hurt planing. But adding in what I’ve learned doing SUP foiling and winging, I know that shaping the rails kills stability. Also pulling the nose hurts stability, but does improve boofing ability. So my newest v5 wing board keeps the unshaped square rail for stability, with a micro chine and pulled nose for kook moments. I also toss in more width. Giving maximum planing surface in the shortest package, with maximum stability and kook tolerance. FYI, not taking orders, so no need for anyone to contact me. Sorry.
For 2022, Fanatic, Axis, Indiana are all straight tails. I’m sure there are more.
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Here is the kite race board, I’m sure someone at Crissy tried winging and figured it out first. I know someone in Florida that winged one of these. The first gens had a single tuttle box
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51465803379_4a4d2f3e64_z.jpg)
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This is the kind of experience you can’t buy. Thx DW.
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DW - I’m dying to know - what do you mean by “micro chine”?
Is this a really low angle chine so the bottom isn’t completely flat? Seems like that’s what I’m seeing in the latest video of your boards
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So how does all this translate to foil SUPing?
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A friend who rides Naish gear gave me an old kite race board a few years back. It had 4 dangerously long Tuttle Fins in it. Decided to attempt to make a prone Foilboard out it. (Another story) It did have a blunt looking tail.
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So how does all this translate to foil SUPing?
In my very limited winging experience, what I did find with the "wing" boards I was riding at Hood River this last week, was that everything was set back much further than I do on my sup gear, and it really worked great....I was flying! ;D
Out of curiosity, I pulled out my same sized sup board that I'm using to learn winging, and found that I didn't have enough volume in the nose, and that, combined with the fact that my tracks and foot strap are mounted much further forward than the wing boards....trying to pop the board up w/o a wave behind me helping me do some of the lifting, that the nose of the board kept getting stuffed under the 2'+ wind swell, and thusly the foil wing was getting pointed down exacerbating the problem of pulling the nose under water.
Then took a wing board out to see if I could DW with it, and when paddling up river, I kept wanting to get my foot further forward than the strap was allowing me to do. I did take my foot out of the strap, and stood with my foot completely ahead of it, where I'd normally have my front strap, and that did make it much easier to paddle into and through the swells, but w/o the strap I had nothing to pull up against, or use to help control the side to side roll as I do when paddling in the strap. W/o the strap up there, I just couldn't pull/pop it off the water. Yes, I'm sure technique/timing had a bunch to do with that also, as that was my first ever attempt at DWing anywhere.
Grabbed my sup board to see if I could DW with it, but felt that I needed a bunch more volume than its 103L (need more like 115-120L), because it was next to impossible to pull it up out of the water in just the rolling swells, and not having a true face of a wave (skateboard ramp) to head down to generate the speed necessary to get the wing flying.
That pretty much confirmed to me why my flat tail sup board is back with the shaper having the boxes moved forward 3" to where I originally had them planned, but moved them back when seeing/hearing that with the flat tail they needed to go much further back (even more than the 3" I moved them).
Could just be me, but I think a crossover wing/sup board might not be the way to go...unless you use the 16" Chinook boxes I saw at the show. Really two different sports, that I think need two different boards. With sup, all of your weight is being pushed onto the board as you're paddling, and leveling that off instead of sinking the tail too much is vital, whereas w/winging, the wing is actually trying to pull you off the board, and allowing for the board and foil to become unweighted (relatively speaking), and let's it lift much easier than compared to trying to paddle it into as wave or DWer. But that's JMO...OMMV. 🤷♂️
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Picked this beauty up from King’s Paddle Sports. Surfed SanO and it performed amazing even though it is designed as a light wind wing board. Carved and got into waves all over- out front, Sunshine, and Nukes!!
On an Axis 1000/500 and 1000/460.
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Sweet board!
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WOW! haven't been here for a while. A whole lot of great input. For winging, I would never use anything other than a straight tail board. Makes the use of all types of foils easier, especially the newer high aspect, faster foils. Not only is the flat tail bottom of importance, having a board with a planshape that pulls in at the tail can significantly increase the drag at the stern. The boards that incorporate both a straight bottom and straight sides at the rear are, in my opinion, noticeably easier on lift off. My design improved considerably when I added minicell foam wingers to the curved rails, thereby straightening them out just shy of the actual tail.
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I wanted a little more float on my 110 hover for sup, and also wanted to make it maintain speed better, so I made it into a straight tail. It’s cold here now so I haven’t gotten out that much, but my first time out suping I was struck by how much slower it was than before…. Until it was faster. I’m assuming it’s due to the increased size of the wall in the back dragging water, up to the point that water starts releasing from the edge. So I thought I’d revisit the Armstrong approach to straight tail. It seems to me that gentle rocker creates a cleaner underwater shape than a rectangle. Closer to a sailboat (imoca)compared to a power boat going slow. And winging with both shapes I can’t discern a difference in how they skip off the water, so it seems that gradual rocker might make it paddle faster, but doesn’t affect too much the straight tail benefits. Just my thoughts.
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Your Naish now looks like my blue planet easy foiler 😀 its 6’ only board that I’ve known for sup and winging and I really like it.
I kept on thinking how I would start on that board and progress to something else but at 98 litres it’s perfect for both disciplines.
Only thing that i would update on that board is to have the handle at the bottom of the board.