Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: SUPdad on May 26, 2021, 10:12:27 PM
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Just ran across this thing. Converted to USD is about $2600. :o
https://www.foildrive.com.au/shop
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Hey SupDad
I currently have a FoilDrive system on my board and struggle to take it off now.
They are bloody good fun and open up even more spots for foiling :)
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Hey SupDad
I currently have a FoilDrive system on my board and struggle to take it off now.
They are bloody good fun and open up even more spots for foiling :)
How long does the battery last while in use? How big is the battery (watts)? Thanks!
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I think they added more stuff to their website as I didn’t notice the spare parts before. Battery specs:
Voltage - 22v
Capacity - 12ah
Energy - 259wh
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This looks promising!
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I think they added more stuff to their website as I didn’t notice the spare parts before. Battery specs:
Voltage - 22v
Capacity - 12ah
Energy - 259wh
Hey Mate
If I don't abuse the battery and just use it for starts I can get about 1.5 to 2 hours out of a battery but it also depends on how many waves
you get and if you use it for cruising back out. I am 80kgs and am riding a 5'7 99L sup with it.
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Very interesting but I don't seem to see much details on their site. The motor attaches to mast and is wired to a small pack attached to back of board. How do you turn it on and off? What does the pack weigh? Thanks
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It looks like it uses a typical wireless controller. That's a dinky battery for an eFoil but makes perfect sense for a boost.
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Very interesting but I don't seem to see much details on their site. The motor attaches to mast and is wired to a small pack attached to back of board. How do you turn it on and off? What does the pack weigh? Thanks
Hi Mate
The whole pack weighs about 3Kgs. The motor is controlled through a throttle which is attached to your paddle.
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It looks like it uses a typical wireless controller. That's a dinky battery for an eFoil but makes perfect sense for a boost.
Its certainly not an efoil.
If you really want to you can paddle and pump it up and ride around on flat water but its not what its designed for.
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It looks like it uses a typical wireless controller. That's a dinky battery for an eFoil but makes perfect sense for a boost.
I'm buying one right after Pono tries one and gives it the thumbs up.
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It even works with the paddle held backwards!
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It even works with the paddle held backwards!
https://www.instagram.com/p/CPA03cEDiOQ/
I don't think he even need a paddle at all.
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It even works with the paddle held backwards!
Haha, 100% that guy is a prone foiler who they got to do that video.
“Come on Gary, just go catch a couple on the SUP so we can market to those people too.”
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I'm not likely to buy one, but I might build one. I've been wondering what I should do with my spare foil motor--one is for the TowBot. I think I've settled on this. I've got a big box of LiFe 26mm cells that I didn't use for my MoHo battery (went with two Tesla modules instead). The mast clamp is sized for a 16cm mast. I'll either open it up to handle 19cm or get a 16cm Axis mast. This motor and reduction gear is sized for a high-speed efoil, so it's a bit of overkill as a booster, but I've got it, might as well go with it. It looks, heavy, but it's not. Good motor and a reduction gear.
Good excuse to build a board too.
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I think these folks implemented some really good ideas for this concept. It will only get better.
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I'm not likely to buy one, but I might build one. I've been wondering what I should do with my spare foil motor--one is for the TowBot. I think I've settled on this. I've got a big box of LiFe 26mm cells that I didn't use for my MoHo battery (went with two Tesla modules instead). The mast clamp is sized for a 16cm mast. I'll either open it up to handle 19cm or get a 16cm Axis mast. This motor and reduction gear is sized for a high-speed efoil, so it's a bit of overkill as a booster, but I've got it, might as well go with it. It looks, heavy, but it's not. Good motor and a reduction gear.
Good excuse to build a board too.
This is a toy that I would love to have but can't justify the $. Ain't gonna happen. I also don't the skills or inclination to learn to DIY it (and my foil DIYing has shown pretty clearly it ends up more expensive than just buying :P )
I am curious Pono, for someone who knows what they are doing, what do the parts add up to? If the marketed foil drive is $3k, are the parts half of it?
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If they plan to go through distribution and dealers it better be more like 1/3 of the retail price, otherwise perhaps half. Quantity produced matters hugely with a product like this. Tooling and prototypes can easily cost $20-50K. The more you can use already existing stuff, the less that will cost, though the more the final cost of goods will be dictated by other suppliers.
It would cost me about that much to DIY one starting from scratch. Those aluminum motor/gearbox ones cost me $1000 each and that was an extremely good price. Still needs a controller, a wireless throttle, and a battery.
I ponied up for one of these on Kickstarter a few years ago: https://boostsurfing.com/preorder/. According to the site, they are still working away on delivering. They raised about $2.5 million with a preorder price of around 200 bucks. I suspect these might be almost as effective for foil boosting and the pre-order price is now about 300 bucks. It's an open question whether or not this actually gets delivered, but the price is more in line with a product that could be sold in larger quantities. There's no question this can be delivered for the price--it's a lower spec, looking at a likely much bigger market. Battery, motor, housing, prop, and single-function controller. Not much different in tooling and component cost from a new 20 Volt lithium drill which sell in mass quantities for 130 bucks. In fact, they could (and maybe should) have looked at using a hefty wireless tool battery in a waterproof case to power the thing. Quick swapping, readily available, multiple uses. I like it. I powered an eBike with DeWalt drill batteries just screwing around. It was actually kind of practical.
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If they plan to go through distribution and dealers it better be more like 1/3 of the retail price, otherwise perhaps half. Quantity produced matters hugely with a product like this. Tooling and prototypes can easily cost $20-50K. The more you can use already existing stuff, the less that will cost, though the more the final cost of goods will be dictated by other suppliers.
It would cost me about that much to DIY one starting from scratch. Those aluminum motor/gearbox ones cost me $1000 each and that was an extremely good price. Still needs a controller, a wireless throttle, and a battery.
I ponied up for one of these on Kickstarter a few years ago: https://boostsurfing.com/preorder/. According to the site, they are still working away on delivering. They raised about $2.5 million with a preorder price of around 200 bucks. I suspect these might be almost as effective for foil boosting and the pre-order price is now about 300 bucks. It's an open question whether or not this actually gets delivered, but the price is more in line with a product that could be sold in larger quantities. There's no question this can be delivered for the price--it's a lower spec, looking at a likely much bigger market. Battery, motor, housing, prop, and single-function controller. Not much different in tooling and component cost from a new 20 Volt lithium drill which sell in mass quantities for 130 bucks. In fact, they could (and maybe should) have looked at using a hefty wireless tool battery in a waterproof case to power the thing. Quick swapping, readily available, multiple uses. I like it. I powered an eBike with DeWalt drill batteries just screwing around. It was actually kind of practical.
Foildrive....I suspect they are actually quite reasonably priced given the tech involved. Full efoils are 10-12k, the china knock offs are still 5k, so I think we are talking expensive parts. The people posting about them in oz are all raving...so they work and seem decent quality. I can't really justify the $, but seems like fair value.
Boost...I am on the kickstarter waiting plan too. They look kind of weak/slow compared to foildrive. I fully believe in "you get what you pay for" ... so I am a little doubtful about how much power and durability we'll be getting for $200. I am hopeful that it'll be just barely enough juice to get up on foil in 8kts or on waves that wall up and don't quite break. Where my pumping or paddle power are nearly there, so just a short quick boost I may be up and gone. We'll see. I have been pestering them for months to send me a prototype so me and my geek foil army can macgyver up a foil version. But they won't bite. My selling point to them is that the foil market may have real potential for them, if it opens up possibilities. They are focused on the surf market, which is indeed multiples bigger....but as a lifetime surfer, their promotion and the testimonials are so cringey/kooky it's hard to watch. At least with foiling the goal is a performance enhancement. Feels like emphasizing this as a way to avoid learning to paddle or get in surfing shape is a mistake. As well, the extra drag with the fin always in the water, I doubt it'll work well enough to feel good for even an intermediate surfer.
Anyways....I am excited to see what the possibilities may be for e-assisted foiling. :D
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...This motor and reduction gear is sized for a high-speed efoil, so it's a bit of overkill as a booster, but I've got it, might as well go with it...
Nice experiment! In case it didn't work you're still left with 2 amphibious dildos, probably an overkill but hey, you are a large man :D
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I spent a little time browsing the site. Spare parts are always expensive, but wow. The battery pack for this thing looks like it might cost $150 with a 100% markup. It's 600 bucks. The nutty prices for eFoils are probably driving the pricing. With Lift eFoils still selling for $12,000 there's a lot of room in the necessarily small market for making big margin. This thing looks like it's fundamentally assembled from standard parts. You can buy a new jetski for $5K, and at 12K you're well into the fancy-schmancy high power ones. Sure, you have to find a buddy to sling yourself into waves
But yeah, if you want one, have at it, but that dinky 19v, 10Ah battery pack is going to poop out a LOT sooner than you expect. That's the size of the flight pack for a large drone multicopter. Turnigy sells a 6s 10A pack for $120 retail (no BMS). If I do this silly thing I'd want at least 20ah. Lift's pack is about 100AH (I'm guessing, they're coy about it, but they say 2.1KW, at 20V that's 100AH. Lift wants $4k for a replacement battery--yikes). Anyone who has ridden an eFoil knows that a lot of the power consumption happens lifting your ass off the water. Once you're up you need to throttle down substantially. This thing is just for lifting--not for running. I'd expect maybe 5-10 lifts.
As a geek, I'm offended by the lack of solid information on the website, as a marketer I say kudos, these folks bullshit with the best of them.
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This is a great concept at an marketable price point. I suspect it may not be the best value and trust PonoBill's opinion above. They may be greedy or maybe they just aren't getting very good component pricing. This is a great idea and like most great ideas will be stolen and made better and cheaper by someone else. Hopefully (for them) they are already working on a improved version for the same cost.
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Check this out, effectively flat water:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R80rzt5Dmw
PB, how much for you to make me one of these? ;) Alternatively, I'm sidelined for a couple months due to SUP surf-induced shoulder surgery. Can you give me How-To instructions ...
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Alternatively, I'm sidelined for a couple months due to SUP surf-induced shoulder surgery. Can you give me How-To instructions ...
This thread doesn't have directions. But all the DIY efoil guys post here. It's way over my head, but I'm pretty sure if you go through a few of the "tow boogie" threads you will find directions and links on how to buy and build all that stuff.
https://foil.zone/t/foil-drive-assist-diy/12927/7
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Check this out, effectively flat water:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R80rzt5Dmw
PB, how much for you to make me one of these? ;) Alternatively, I'm sidelined for a couple months due to SUP surf-induced shoulder surgery. Can you give me How-To instructions ...
You don't need me. These parts plug together and deliver about the same thrust for a lot longer. You need the battery box kit and whatever 12 V motor drive you want to plug into it. Plug and pray.
(https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/Haa0bb54343ec4f7baffc993e4a647be5H.jpg)
Search for: 40AH battery box for electric motor power fin SUP BOARD propeller power source on Ali Express. The motor system sown in the ad plugs right in. You can do the whole thing for less than 900 bucks.
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Search for: 40AH battery box for electric motor power fin SUP BOARD propeller power source on Ali Express. The motor system sown in the ad plugs right in. You can do the whole thing for less than 900 bucks.
Link to the deal....this may be just the battery
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001834152172.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.33a22960hI0vUu&algo_pvid=d6a2fe2c-b35a-4318-838d-797d66d2a1f8&algo_exp_id=d6a2fe2c-b35a-4318-838d-797d66d2a1f8-0
tempting! But my rule is never ali without a first hand report :-)
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the ali version appears to be same as this name brand one. Seems to be same price. And there's very little info or reviews out there, definitely no foilers I can find. I am intrigued, the price is halfway between boost fit and foil drive...but is the quality? Still seems too risky without a first hand report.
https://www.aquamarina.com/bluedrive-s/
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Talking to myself here because no one else will listen :P
From foilzone, description of foildrive specs: "It’s a 6374 motor 120~300kv, Maytech remote (you don’t need one, you can get a 20$ e-skate remote) you will need a 6s battery, 120~150A 3s-6s RC boat ESC like FlyColor, 3D printed prop, 3D printed mastclamp, you can build that whole setup for less than 300$, please do your own further research, you’re welcome." Google those terms and it's basically an e-skateboard setup. That's really interesting. It is probably over ambitious to attempt it. But would be a fun experiment.
Also from foildrive, seems W is a key measure (watts I am guessing). Need 2000-3000W to get up. Foildrive, if motor above is correct, is 3250W. Boost fin is 800W. That aquamarina is 240W....so it's useless junk, which is what I assumed given lack of any actual user reviews.
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Talking to myself here because no one else will listen :P
From foilzone, description of foildrive specs: "It’s a 6374 motor 120~300kv, Maytech remote (you don’t need one, you can get a 20$ e-skate remote) you will need a 6s battery, 120~150A 3s-6s RC boat ESC like FlyColor, 3D printed prop, 3D printed mastclamp, you can build that whole setup for less than 300$, please do your own further research, you’re welcome."
I've tried searching around on foilzone and I could never make sense of all the options and how to research putting it all together. Wish someone would just sell complete wired units (like the Foildrive) with higher end motors and batterys instead of incomplete kits like Flipski sells.
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It’s not that hard with a little research to sort out what to buy but yeah when you first start reading it’s daunting. I’d start a thread and get advice. Sounds like you’re about halfway there as it it from the foil geek’s list. (I’m reading this one man lol.)
If it’s looking like $300 then it’s worth a try. I don’t have a 3D printer but I’ll bet you’ve got a friend who does. The tow boogie was like this and then guys got together and made a spreadsheet of what to buy and now it’s fairly straight forward. Make it happen!! I might put a front fin on my Wing board and try to SUP it. ;)
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Yes, watts is the power measure, but for a boosting drive you don't need to "get up", you just need some help. Anything that will push you to 3 mph will be better than nothing. There are a lot of people that can get up on a foil just paddling. If they are generating more than 100 watts I'll eat my calculator--paddling has to be the shittiest way to make power ever invented. A fit adult adept at a sport generates between 50 and 150 watts. Elite cyclists generate 300 and can burst to about 1000 but that probably requires drugs. 240 watts, if it's all delivered efficiently (probably more like 175) would be like having Laird help you paddle but he weighs 4 kG
3000 watts is a nice number for a full-on eFoil, where you don't do anything but push a button and balance. Even then, that amount of power will only be used if you are going stupid fast, like 40mph. On any eFoil the first thing you learn to do is not give full throttle to get up, the second thing is to throttle back quickly when you're up.
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This post has me thinking about a few things.
quick run of the numbers:
Let's assume regardless of cadence that the paddler is pulling on the paddle half the time, and half the time is spend in recovery - pulling the paddle out of the water and returning it into the water for the next stroke. We can ignore power used for recovery and just focus on the power generated in the pull stroke. I just used a tape measure and estimated that I move my bottom hand about 16-18" on a power stroke. Wild guess says I'm pulling on the paddle with 30lbs of force. turns out this would be 60W continuous. So, yeah less than 100W
In terms of cruising around - it shouldn't require more power than it takes to pump the foil. That's gotta be less than 1000W or nobody would be able to pump around for more than a few seconds. But I guess we have to remember that the propeller is pretty inefficient and we've added the drag of the motor. I agree, it sure seems like 3000W would only be needed for going really fast.
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Paddles are less efficient than propellors--a lot less. Even if you engage your core you're using small muscles. decent bicyclists are using the largest, most powerful muscles and have an extremely efficient power conversion system. A really good bicyclist puts out 150 watts. We are puny motors. One horsepower is 750 watts.
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A really good bicyclist puts out 150 watts.
Sorry to be a pedant, but done a lot of cycling!
You're missing a 0 (a typo I'm sure!)
Should be 1500 watts, which will be close to peak, depending on what period you measure over ..
A pro cyclist Functional Threshold Power (loosely described as the power they can sustain for an hour) will be between 5 to above 6 Watts per kg, as power output is very dependent on weight. So a 60kg climber will have a sustainable hour power of around 360 watts.
Wake Thief calculated that foil pumping needs about 300 watts, so that sets the above in context... Pumping is hard work! At my best my FTP was just around 305 watts, giving me an FTP of around 4.5 watts/kg.
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Yeah, my best half hour of cycling on a stationary bike is 320W average (plus or minus the inaccuracy of the watt meter on the bike). But I’m just about dead after 20seconds of pumping. Cycling is quite a bit more efficient than pumping
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https://www.amazon.com/Electric-Surfboard-Suitable-Technology-Available/dp/B0863JYVJY/ref=sr_1_56_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=blunt+cut+fin&qid=1627755022&sr=8-56-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFIWFVOWVlPNElPTkYmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA1NTk0NThLOElQU1ZZNVNTRFkmZW5jcnlwdGVkQWRJZD1BMDIxNDYyMjEzUFA5OU1XU0RYVSZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2J0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=
Someone want to take a gamble? :)
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I've been following the original one pretty closely --> https://www.foildrive.com.au/shop.
The guy in this YouTube video appears to get foiling in almost flat water --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R80rzt5Dmw&t=366s
It really does look promising, may open up the East Coast of Florida for year-around foiling, but after shipping and duties it comes out to more than $3000. The value-added component I see is the pass-through opening for the foil mast in the torpedo-shaped propeller. Anyone have any ideas were we can buy or make something like this?
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A really good bicyclist puts out 150 watts.
Sorry to be a pedant, but done a lot of cycling!
You're missing a 0 (a typo I'm sure!)
Should be 1500 watts, which will be close to peak, depending on what period you measure over
Nah. I should have been more precise about what I meant by "really good". I wasn't talking about the far end of the bell curve, just past the midpoint. 5 watts per kg is deep into the elite level, and irrelevant to the point--we're talking about what it takes to make the drive useful, not what is possible for a tiny number of dedicated athletes who probably would never pick up a paddle--bulks up muscles that are useless for bicycling. 1500 watts--you're dreaming unless perhaps you weigh 300kg with 2% body fat. If you can produce 1200 watts for a few seconds (20 watts per kg at 60kg--which is the average weight for elite climbers) you're in the company of a few hundred people on the planet.
Mark Ribcoff, here in Hood River, got one of the foildrives for downwind SUP foiling and is in love with the thing. I should probably just buy one, but can't make myself do it, so I'll build one. Fortunately, I don't have to commit a lot of resources to do that. I've got the two drive systems I bought to build an efoil and the towbot. They fit the narrow Takuma or Slingshot masts. The power cables run up the inside of the mast. I can actually just build what I need for an efoil and just turn the mast upside down and reroute the cables to position the motor close to the board instead of close to the foil. It won't be optimal position for the efoil, but damned close. I'll pick up a slingshot mast this morning and quit screwing around and get this done.
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Anyone have any ideas were we can buy or make something like this?
Besides the parts listed above. All your DIY info for efoil stuff comes from foil.zone
This thread for example was made back in 2019.
https://foil.zone/t/mini-motor-for-sup-surfing/4192/3
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quite an interesting thread....heres another thought. If your foil board had a couple thruster boxes you could double up on that finbox Boost drives and use that to get you going enough to stay up pumping or riding on swell with the foil and the Boost drives would no longer be in the water adding drag? hmmm
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Pono, I'll take the other drive system and make two of everything else. I'll paypal you.
Ps. I'll do 1800 watts for a few seconds. Not bad at 59.
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Oh, I need one of these. I could get a ton of use out of it.
and this was interesting.
https://www.uci.org/news/2019/track-sprinting-a-question-of-watts
Now add one of these on to all the new HA foils and small unbreaking wave spots are now your private playground
exhibit A for the jury
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJMhKZkxNpw
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So I made this today... ...Foildrive on steroids. About 3500 watts with gear reduction to make it efficient. If this can't get my fat ass downwind foiling the next step is a jetpack.
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I'm going to have to shim the heck out of that plate--this silly board has way too much rocker. Once all the flipsky parts come I'll have this beast up and running in a week or so. I think I'm going to do about the same size battery they do. Probably a little bigger because I'm gonna do 14S: 52V . If it leaks a little current I might stun a few salmon.
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Hey Bill, that’s a weapon!
I’m very keen to make some sort of mast mount foil drive, at 140 pounds don’t need the steroid version and would be interested to hear if you think I could power it with one of the Stihl garden equipment batteries we have. There is a 36v 261 Wh. battery, Stihl have a belt battery socket, effectively a portable socket which simplifies connections (all mounted in waterproof box). That battery will run a full size lawn mower for a crazy long time, surely it can get my skinny arse up onto some downwind waves.
I don’t know what I’m looking at in terms of motors/controllers and would welcome any tips, particularly regarding suitability for 36v. Possibly the Flipsky F4125 but no clue if this would have enough grunt for foil drive application.
Thanks
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Pono,
That looks serious! How much weight do you estimate it will it add, when all's said and done? Any thoughts about going with a folding prop for smoother "touch and go's".
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The drive weighs 4 pounds. Controller and battery is an open question. If I just want to go for the lightest weight and assume I'm going to do just a few boosts I could keep it all down to maybe 3-5 more pounds, otherwise 10-15 pounds more. For a folding prop to be worthwhile I'd need to delete the shroud. So no. I can duplicate some of the effects in software by setting an idle RPM.
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Hi Jonathon, yeah, that would almost certainly have enough to boost you up. it's a lot more than you'd get with a paddle. And yes, that's probably enough battery for your application. The 4125 is 400 watts, by my estimation, that's about 4 to 6X what you might possibly generate with a paddle. With a 261 wh battery and intermittent use you'd get a couple of hours out of it.
My version is absolute overkill, I'm just using something I already have. I think the guy who built these, Jake Barnhill, is in Australia. You might want to get in touch with him. In his video he hits 46km/h using this drive. Like I said--absolute overkill, I'll probably never use more than a finger brush on the throttle. https://foil.zone/t/complete-geared-motors/11512
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Hi Jonathon, yeah, that would almost certainly have enough to boost you up. it's a lot more than you'd get with a paddle. And yes, that's probably enough battery for your application. The 4125 is 400 watts, by my estimation, that's about 4 to 6X what you might possibly generate with a paddle. With a 261 wh battery and intermittent use you'd get a couple of hours out of it.
My version is absolute overkill, I'm just using something I already have. I think the guy who built these, Jake Barnhill, is in Australia. You might want to get in touch with him. In his video he hits 46km/h using this drive. Like I said--absolute overkill, I'll probably never use more than a finger brush on the throttle. https://foil.zone/t/complete-geared-motors/11512
Ponò Im dyin' to see you blast off with that thing man-step in it eh
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRF2KuBYdss
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I probably should have posted this here: https://www.ponostyle.com/boosted-foil/
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At the risk of sustaining a fairly pointless contention, 750 watts is one horsepower--33,000 pound feet per minute, 550 pound feet per second. Saying you can generate 1500 watts is saying you could pedal a device that lifts 1100 pounds one foot every second, 66,000 pounds one foot in a minute, outpulling two fit draft horses. You can probably understand why I have a tough time with that.
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My website generally makes me look like a fairly smart guy who does complex projects and executes them with a reasonable level of skill. Fortunately there are some posts that pull that right back to earth, with ridiculous projects that go nowhere. As my wife says "whenever I start thinking you're really smart I remind myself that you rode your motorcycle home from a vasectomy". I should never have told her about that. But here's a foil-related total failure:
https://www.ponostyle.com/geezer-foil/
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I probably should have posted this here: https://www.ponostyle.com/boosted-foil/
Pono, Mark R is eventually going to stop making you boards if you keep chopping the hell out of them 😆
But truthfully I'll bet he gets off on this stuff as much as you do. Love the build. I think these things could keep us all foiling for years to come, age be damned.
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Damn! Is that Falcon Heavy rocket on loan from Elon? Looks like it’ll have you skipping on the water like a rock.😳
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I probably should have posted this here: https://www.ponostyle.com/boosted-foil/
Pono, Mark R is eventually going to stop making you boards if you keep chopping the hell out of them 😆
But truthfully I'll bet he gets off on this stuff as much as you do. Love the build. I think these things could keep us all foiling for years to come, age be damned.
Yeah, Mark loves this shit. He's an infinitely better craftsman than I am, but he's willing to modify a brand new Ocean rodeo wind just for the hell of it. He's on his second bladder-inflated molded handle that can't weigh more than 400 grams. I'm pretty sure he's going to break on and turn his 1500 buck wing into an Allula tablecloth.
On the other hand, he's very resistant to building light stuff for me. That board was a production one--early days.
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Damn! Is that Falcon Heavy rocket on loan from Elon? Looks like it’ll have you skipping on the water like a rock.😳
Yeah, it's about 4000 watts with gear reduction so it's efficient. Roughly equivalent to a 6hp motor. No I don't need that much, it's what I had. I'm sure it's going to be a handful.
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At the risk of sustaining a fairly pointless contention, 750 watts is one horsepower--33,000 pound feet per minute, 550 pound feet per second. Saying you can generate 1500 watts is saying you could pedal a device that lifts 1100 pounds one foot every second, 66,000 pounds one foot in a minute, outpulling two fit draft horses. You can probably understand why I have a tough time with that.
The girls in track sprinting are near 1500 watts. The guys are at about 2200. You may be surprised at how long they can hold that output. Here's a hint - not as long as a draft horse.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRF2KuBYdss
Kai Penny is the man. Best forecaster for sure. He's loving that foildrive.
http://mauisurfreport.blogspot.com/
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I probably should have posted this here: https://www.ponostyle.com/boosted-foil/
Looking forward to the video on the water!
Setting in the box looks pretty skookum. Been thinking on options for this. Any concerns with strength for the mast box build? The normal build has the HD foam extended to deck, which connects to the glassing, making an I-beam. So does your plywood box have enough strength to do the same, more or less, spread the mast load to edge wood, which then transfer to deck glass? The worst case scenario is the mast punches the battery box vertically out of the deck. Which would suck! I tend to worry and over-think, so that may be the case here.
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It's entirely possible that the battery box will fail. My guess is that it's sufficiently stout and well mounted to survive, but it's just a guess. The racks are bedded in divinycell that extended from the deck to the bottom, with what looked like a single patch of carbon on the top. My box is two layers of carbon on the bottom and sides (bagged) then 1/4" ply, then an aluminum plate on the inside, then two layers of fiberglass (mostly to isolate the aluminum from the carbon which would electrochemically corrode it quickly, then a layer of carbon across the bottom and up the sides. the box is glued in with expanding two-part foam, then connects to the deck with two wide strips of carbon. I think it's about as strong as I could make it without fabricating an integrated hatch cover. I elected to use a prefabbed ABS deck cover which doesn't add much to the structural integrity. I give it an 80 percent chance of working which means a 20 percent chance of blowing out. An impact vest and helmet is a requirement, not just for the potential sudden disassembly, but for the difficulty of throttling down five horsepower.
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Maybe change the location of the battery box on V.2?
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I give it an 80 percent chance of working which means a 20 percent chance of blowing out.
Yikes! With a non floating SS set up and that big heavy motor, make sure you tie on a strong tether, in case of failure. Sure would be painful to see that sink into the deeps.
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Yeah, it's tethered, both by a thin cable to a little hole I drilled in the mast and by the wiring. If the board breaks in half the tracks will still probably have most of the tail and all of the PVC block. But still...
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Alex Aguera took his foildrive out in more or less flat water a couple of days ago and was getting it up and foiling like it was an eFoil. the construction on those things is better than I expected. they're using outrunner motors so they have better torque at low RPM. Folding prop is nicely done too. the battery is seriously dinky, but adequate for the intended use.
In other news, this thing came in the mail today. 400 bucks. I don't actually have a board that I want to carve up to accommodate this though I think I still have an old Jimmy Lewis board I lent to Boyum that might be OK to sink a finbox into. The torque is surprisingly good, I stuck it in the pool and held it. Pulled pretty good, I think it will be enough to act as a cheap Foil Drive and help me get up in unbroken waves.
We'll see.
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Oh, I gotta watch this one...
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Alex Aguera took his foildrive out in more or less flat water a couple of days ago and was getting it up and foiling like it was an eFoil. the construction on those things is better than I expected. they're using outrunner motors so they have better torque at low RPM. Folding prop is nicely done too. the battery is seriously dinky, but adequate for the intended use.
In other news, this thing came in the mail today. 400 bucks. I don't actually have a board that I want to carve up to accommodate this though I think I still have an old Jimmy Lewis board I lent to Boyum that might be OK to sink a finbox into. The torque is surprisingly good, I stuck it in the pool and held it. Pulled pretty good, I think it will be enough to act as a cheap Foil Drive and help me get up in unbroken waves.
We'll see.
Where'd you get the fin motor dealeo? I want one, or two maybe. Like an A-10 lol.
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I wound up putting it into my new Flying Dutchman SUP foil board. It's just a fin box, and it turned out to be the only board I could actually fit the box into without interfering with my mast tracks. It's a new board, and a beautiful piece of work, so I did a very careful job. Not my usual hack.
I tried it today in the harbor. The battery box was too much in the way for me to stand with my crappy knee. I need to extend the cable so I can mount the battery in the front. I'm pretty pleased with the power though, At full throttle, it started to get very light on the water. I think with either a paddle assist or a couple of pumps I could pop up. I want this for downwinding, and I think it will work well once I get a few bugs worked out.
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Does anyone know specifically what motor the Foil Drive system uses? I guess I'm looking for the equivalent Chinese part number. ;D Also, wanting to know the diameter of the folding prop. I found a nice cad model of a folding prop recently and want to attempt to machine one. That will be a big time investment so want to get close to the correct size before I start. Thanks!
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Lots of talk about it on an efoil builders forum. Here’s one such thread.
https://foil.zone/t/foil-drive-assist-diy/12927
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Does anyone know specifically what motor the Foil Drive system uses? I guess I'm looking for the equivalent Chinese part number. ;D Also, wanting to know the diameter of the folding prop. I found a nice cad model of a folding prop recently and want to attempt to machine one. That will be a big time investment so want to get close to the correct size before I start. Thanks!
Hdip's thread has the info you need for DIY. Sent you an email with some more info.
Most people are 3d printing the folding props, which seems strong enough (though in the 2 prototypes my buddy made, he's had no issues and I've busted 3 prop blades). The Lift folding prop is metal, a work of art, and $$$.
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I didn't bring any of my eFoil stuff from Hood River so the powered fin thingy was my weak attempt at Foildriving (I think I'm going to call it a foil boost for lack of a better term). So that didn't work so now I'm all in on making one here in Maui.
The foil drive motor is an N6374 Sensorless waterproof motor. they are about 120 bucks plus freight. I went for a somewhat more powerful, more expensive 65121 Motor since my plan now is to build a lightweight board that can do both boosting and efoiling, depending on where I stick the motor. I'll be 3d printing the parts, prototyping them on the cheap little printer I have here in my shop, and making the finished product in polycarbonate with the Prusa printer that I'm anxiously waiting for arrival. There's no way I could print polycarb with my weenie little toy, even with a lot of hacking.
I scored a rejected hollow foilboard from Mark Raaphorst. He doesn't make these anymore but he had this one in the shop. It has a few places where the stringers popped loose internally, but I was going to cut a big hole in it anyway, so it was fine for me.
I set a hatch into it, now I'm waiting for all the other bits. Getting a decent battery pack could be a hassle. A lot of the usual sources don't have anything. I've got lots of LiFePO4 cells at my shop in hood river, along with nice BMS' and a spot welder, but not here. That block of EPS on the deck is to reinforce the front edge of the hatch opening. I've wrapped it in carbon and stuffed it inside. It made the front edge as firm as the already reinforced sides and rear edge.
It's a little small for me, about 103 liters and 29" wide. In my experience efoils can be a bit smaller than conventional foil boards since you can get up to a standing position while the board is moving along briskly. We'll see.
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https://youtu.be/r6g8agc2GKE (https://youtu.be/r6g8agc2GKE)
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I didn't bring any of my eFoil stuff from Hood River so the powered fin thingy was my weak attempt at Foildriving (I think I'm going to call it a foil boost for lack of a better term). So that didn't work so now I'm all in on making one here in Maui.
The foil drive motor is an N6374 Sensorless waterproof motor. they are about 120 bucks plus freight. I went for a somewhat more powerful, more expensive 65121 Motor since my plan now is to build a lightweight board that can do both boosting and efoiling, depending on where I stick the motor. I'll be 3d printing the parts, prototyping them on the cheap little printer I have here in my shop, and making the finished product in polycarbonate with the Prusa printer that I'm anxiously waiting for arrival. There's no way I could print polycarb with my weenie little toy, even with a lot of hacking.
I scored a rejected hollow foilboard from Mark Raaphorst. He doesn't make these anymore but he had this one in the shop. It has a few places where the stringers popped loose internally, but I was going to cut a big hole in it anyway, so it was fine for me.
I set a hatch into it, now I'm waiting for all the other bits. Getting a decent battery pack could be a hassle. A lot of the usual sources don't have anything. I've got lots of LiFePO4 cells at my shop in hood river, along with nice BMS' and a spot welder, but not here. That block of EPS on the deck is to reinforce the front edge of the hatch opening. I've wrapped it in carbon and stuffed it inside. It made the front edge as firm as the already reinforced sides and rear edge.
It's a little small for me, about 103 liters and 29" wide. In my experience efoils can be a bit smaller than conventional foil boards since you can get up to a standing position while the board is moving along briskly. We'll see.
Rad. Stoked to see the mad inventions you'll come up with. We are still progressing on the DIY foildrives. My buddy is on his windfoil board, only 5' and 100L, he can just barely stand on it unpowered. But as you say, the forward momentum steadies you, you can even start on your knees and do a quick popup once slowly motoring. So your board is probably optimal, or may even end up bigger than you want.
Are you going to work out cooling for your ESC for efoil mode? The new FD has the ESC mounted to have the bottom outside the compartment, so the heat dissipates. It doesn't appear to use water cooling.
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I'll probably do the same thing I did with my box in Hood River--make the inside base of the hatch box out of aluminum, insulated from the carbon fiber with a layer of fiberglass. Then bolt the aluminum controller box to the aluminum plate. I don't plan to use it much as an eFoil, but if I do I'll add some water cooling. The short bursts of use as a foildrive shouldn't overwhelm the heat transfer capabilities of the plate. Especially since its in contact with the carbon of the hull. The fiberglass will slow the heat transfer but not preclude it. As with everything else in these experiments, we'll see how that goes. I've ordered some temperature test strips but it probably makes more sense for me to build a wireless sensor set to monitor temperature, battery voltage, current, and whatever else suits my fancy.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHLwufbDkls
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I think this foil drive thing is going to (already is) split two ways.
The "convert your board into a full-on efoil" kit and the lightweight ,minimalistic DW "helping hand".
I am way more interested in the second option,minimal bulk,drag and weight and just enough push to compensate for age,bad technique and iffy conditions.
Enough battery to get 10-15 starts (not couch potato starts, you would have to paddle hard) could do the job i think.Make DW learning an enjoyable journey from day 1.
All the tech is there ,i think in 2 years we will be choosing between brands like we do with foils now.
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That makes a lot of sense though I don't see anyone rushing to compete with Foildrive. I suspect the high price of efoils attracts Chinese competition but the dinky market discourages anyone else. It's not a market I'd expect to radically grow. Winging is probably the major competitor to efoils, and it's one heck of a competitor.
I'm taking my current direction--overkill--because I don't know for sure what will work for me. I don't think I'll be doing any ten-mile downwinders with just 10-15 starts, and that's my goal. I certainly don't mind paddling hard, I'm still pretty good at that, but I need a bit of flexibility. I can get the weight into the ballpark of a wimpy system. The motor and controller represent a relatively small percentage of the overall weight--but let's say it's 30 percent. They have a certain minimum weight anyway. Adding 20 percent to that minimum increases the overall weight by less than ten percent. The big issue is the battery, and I can vary that weight depending on how I'm going to use it on a specific day.
Foildrive just came out with a Plus version. the Foildrive is now $3400 and the plus version is $4400. the plus looks to use the same motor, just a controller and battery upgrade.
My plan is to build a substantially more powerful system and let it loaf. It would be a stupid decision commercially, but for one off, it's not. Maybe.
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That makes a lot of sense though I don't see anyone rushing to compete with Foildrive. I suspect the high price of efoils attracts Chinese competition but the dinky market discourages anyone else. It's not a market I'd expect to radically grow. Winging is probably the major competitor to efoils, and it's one heck of a competitor.
I'm taking my current direction--overkill--because I don't know for sure what will work for me. I don't think I'll be doing any ten-mile downwinders with just 10-15 starts, and that's my goal. I certainly don't mind paddling hard, I'm still pretty good at that, but I need a bit of flexibility. I can get the weight into the ballpark of a wimpy system. The motor and controller represent a relatively small percentage of the overall weight--but let's say it's 30 percent. They have a certain minimum weight anyway. Adding 20 percent to that minimum increases the overall weight by less than ten percent. The big issue is the battery, and I can vary that weight depending on how I'm going to use it on a specific day.
Foildrive just came out with a Plus version. the Foildrive is now $3400 and the plus version is $4400. the plus looks to use the same motor, just a controller and battery upgrade.
My plan is to build a substantially more powerful system and let it loaf. It would be a stupid decision commercially, but for one off, it's not. Maybe.
I'm still waiting to see a video of you using that huge motor Bill. That thing might blast ya right out of the water!
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Actually, I've backtracked a bit and ordered a few of the N6374 motors that Foildrive is using. There's room to get a little more power out of that motor and there is a body of work already in place that other folks have done that I can crib from.
This is the current state of my garage. I swore I wasn't going to get wrapped around the axle doing a bunch of projects in Maui. I intentionally didn't bring any electronics gear and test equipment with me. I think I've well and truly lost my marbles. I have eleven projects going simultaneously and I'm alternating between re-learning Fusion 3D and reading books on epigenetics. I'm not even sure why.
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Actually, I've backtracked a bit and ordered a few of the N6374 motors that Foildrive is using. There's room to get a little more power out of that motor and there is a body of work already in place that other folks have done that I can crib from.
This is the current state of my garage. I swore I wasn't going to get wrapped around the axle doing a bunch of projects in Maui. I intentionally didn't bring any electronics gear and test equipment with me. I think I've well and truly lost my marbles. I have eleven projects going simultaneously and I'm alternating between re-learning Fusion 3D and reading books on epigenetics. I'm not even sure why.
The hatch job looks pretty sweet!
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Here's the latest version of a drive system (this is a group effort). Very simple motor mount through-bolted to an axis mast, attached to a non-waterproof version of the 6374 motor. The mount, prop hub and blades are all 3D printed in Polycarbonate reinforced with carbon fiber. the motor is just a placeholder unless the waterproof versions don't show up soon, in which case I'll waterproof this thing as best as I can. These sensorless brushless motors can actually run submerged, but they don't last long in salt water.
The 3D printed parts look kind of goopy because I coated them with epoxy. 3D parts tend to suck up a bit of water which then drips everywhere. I'd do a kind of WEST epoxy saturation approach but I don't have a vacuum pump or chamber here.
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You could try a 3 or 4 blade prop. Gori does 3 and 4 blade folding props for yachts.
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I have a three blade non-folding prop that I'll probably experiment with. Needs a shroud though and probably some reworking of the electronics to provide an idle speed while in the air. Coming down with all that drag would likely mean an immediate faceplant.
The Foil Drive uses a very similar prop to this one, and they seem to work well with it.
I'm doing a surprising amount of testing and development on these parts before I rush out to the water. Mostly because I'm still waiting for the motors. I have a long history of jumping the gun. When I was developing a radio-controlled rudder and autopilot the day I got it working for the first time I did a Malilo Run with it. It worked really well--for half the run.
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I guess the prop will go into most resistance as it hits the water. So a 3 bladed folding prop of the same diameter should have a similar resistance, 2 blades hitting with the 3rd vertical.
Bilge pumps turn on and off without float switches. You must be able to build a switch into the housing that turns the motor off when its out of the water and back on again when in contact with water.
The square end where the wires are is the float switch. Its a sealed unit so no way water can get in to activate a switch. Not sure how they work but they do.
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I don't need to sense the water, just have the prop spinning at some to-be-determined speed so when it hits the water it doesn't cause drag--perhaps even gives a little forward push to compensate for the board drag that's probably happening next. That also will set the stage for smooth power application to take back off. No sudden surge.
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That is a pretty interesting sensor though. I'll need to get one of those and rip it apart.