Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: APPST_Paddle on May 22, 2021, 02:06:20 AM
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So.......I'm a year in on the Maliko 200, confident riding in mostly knee to waist high, occasional waist/chest day (East Coast US waves). I'm not pumping back out the back great yet, but making some progress, but no issues linking waves and getting longer rides (45 seconds, etc.)
I'm debating going prone or staying with the SUP and maybe progressing to a high aspect wing. I'd like to try something with a bit more speed,but without losing the smaller wave lift of the Maliko 200. I also have a Gen 1 GoFoil mast that might be showing it's age a bit with some flexing.
So, any suggestions on going to the GL210, or what? If it's everyone's experience that gradual switch to prone just because of the lower volume is the biggest progression, I may go that route, but damn I still love hoping on the SUP. There's a few reasons the SUP is a better choice on some of our breaks (longer paddle often against some current to inlet breaks, gutless waves, and the occasional snipping at your heels).
Any thoughts?
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You described my progression. After a year on M200 my first HA wing was GL210. Now I have a quiver of GLs 140 to 240. They are great in my Gulf of Mexico conditions. I think you’re on the right track.
I am sure some will chime in with NL suggestions 😀
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I have progressed from Kai, Maliko 160, Maliko 200, Iwa, GL210, GL 140, NL190 and NL 130.
I weigh 185.
GL210 on a SUP is exactly 100% what you want. No ambiguity.
The GL210 has a tad less lift than the M200 but is way more versatile. It works from 3 ft in crappy 8 second waves East Coast RI to 15 feet at Mavericks. It’s also a great wing for wing dinging. NL wings not as good in smaller slow stuff.
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I also started on the M 200, have the GLs and NLs. I'm 210lb riding gut-less Texas surf and my go to is the NL220 but when the surf firms up I'll ride the NL190. I really like how they turn and sometimes I can pump up on foil after a small wave passes me and drop in from behind. Go NL.
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And of course, there's Axis, Armstrong, and a dozen others. The majority of wave surfers in Maui are on GoFoil GLs and NLs, and probably Armstrong is a close second.
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The GL210 has a tad less lift than the M200 but is way more versatile. It works from 3 ft in crappy 8 second waves East Coast RI to 15 feet at Mavericks. It’s also a great wing for wing dinging. NL wings not as good in smaller slow stuff.
GL 210 works for me in knee high stuff. 3ft8 sec I will be on gl 140 😂 and that’s an amazing day in SW Florida.
My favorite wing is GL180 there’s something special about it. Waist high wave for me and I am on it. 180 lbs.
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You described my progression. After a year on M200 my first HA wing was GL210. Now I have a quiver of GLs 140 to 240. They are great in my Gulf of Mexico conditions. I think you’re on the right track.
I am sure some will chime in with NL suggestions 😀
Yeah, same board, same progression line. I had one person say go with a 180, but honestly, I have no issues being overcooked with the 200 95% of the time here, I'd rather have plenty of lift than not enough.
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Any comparision/thought on any of the Armstrong wings, they seem really well put together. I'm about 95% certain I'll go with the GL210, but figured I'd do my research.
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Not Armstrong, but Axis has a whole line of kits to meet any of your needs.
Comparable to the GL210 (96.1cm wingspan, 6.82 AR) are the...1000 (100cm, 7.63 AR), 980 (98cm, 7.49 AR), the 970 (97cm, 6.27 AR), 910 (91cm, 6.80), and 900 (90cm, 6.84) of various outlines/shapes...to really dial in what it is you're looking for from your new wing (takeoff, turning, pumping, ??). They have quite a few other, but I wanted to keep it to those that were close to the length and or AR of the GL210.
Not to mention the interchangeability of masts (6 lengths, two thicknesses), fuses (5 lengths), and tail wings (11 different shapes or sizes).
Yes, I'm quite biased towards Axis for a number of reasons, so please take into consideration wrt the above. But more than happy to answer any questions you might have about them, their difference performance characteristics, durability, or whatever.
For what it's worth, I used to ride Go Foil prior to Axis, and had the Iwa, Maliko200, GL180, and GL210 front wings, Kai, Maliko, and 18" flat tails, on the older 24" mast with 3" adapter for approx 27 total inches...so have an OK idea of the differences between the various combos from the two companies. I was never on the NLs Go Foils offer, but from seeing what some of my buddies are doing on them, they also look like a real doable option also.
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You described my progression. After a year on M200 my first HA wing was GL210. Now I have a quiver of GLs 140 to 240. They are great in my Gulf of Mexico conditions. I think you’re on the right track.
I am sure some will chime in with NL suggestions 😀
Yeah, same board, same progression line. I had one person say go with a 180, but honestly, I have no issues being overcooked with the 200 95% of the time here, I'd rather have plenty of lift than not enough.
I followed much of the same progression as many others here. Maliko 160->IWA/M200->GL180->NL160. Weigh 180lbs. In the GL range, I too am also partial to 180... catches anything from 1 foot bumps up to shoulder/head high (or higher) depending on wave energy. 210 has same width but a bit extra chord and people love it too and since you like the 200 in most conditions you will probably like it. The following chart was helpful to me as getting good data on the GF wings is hard: https://gofoilaustralia.com.au/pages/what-foil-for-you
In the NL line, the NL190 may be an amazing option. Turns quicker than GL, has more glide, handles bigger drops with an easier lift profile and less work; at the expense of stalling if not at speed. I think it also has more lift than the 180. Oh and if considering an upgrade, the pedestal is a big improvement to the original Maliko tail... the short pedestal and KDMaui 13.5 tail is amazing though the 14.5 GF was a noticeable improvement over the Maliko tail. Looks like you have great Axis recommendations too--I did try a friend's 910 on the ultrashort and it was amazing too. Felt like it was in between the GL140 and GL180 and had a big range.
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for SUP the next step is the GL 210...eventually you want to get to the NL220 but if you try to jump too far ahead youll just get frustrated and maybe hurt...the NLs are super advanced but if youre ready for them theyll do some really COOL STUFF!
https://youtu.be/dNcTcel6nDA
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Any opinion on the pedestal length 6.5 to 9.5"? Also, I have a flip tip tail that's a 14.5" from a friend, will that work with the GL210 on the GF 1.0 mast?
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Any opinion on the pedestal length 6.5 to 9.5"? Also, I have a flip tip tail that's a 14.5" from a friend, will that work with the GL210 on the GF 1.0 mast?
I have both but use the 6.5 pretty exclusively after I got it and it works great with the 14.5". Carves so much better but may be a bit more of a learning curve than 9.5".
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Any opinion on the pedestal length 6.5 to 9.5"? Also, I have a flip tip tail that's a 14.5" from a friend, will that work with the GL210 on the GF 1.0 mast?
Appst, I have the GF 1.0 Mast(s) and my pedestal and 14.5 flip fit.. I vaguely remember sanding fuselage a bit to get it to snug up. Then I wrapped the join(fuse/pedestal) with electric tape to make it haul ass.
I am running the GL210 and I go back and forth between the 14.5 flip and my whit trash chopped Maliko tail. I am having a hard time leaving the maliko chopped tail.
I am 160lbs, enjoy long waves, and am getting the NL160 next.
-red
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I wing with the long pedestal and sup foil with short. There ain't so much difference between the two but winging with longer pedestal removes that nervousness in the board and long pedestal DOESN'T hinder carving ability. Get both ;D
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for surfing i always use the 6.5 pedestal...for wing the 9.5 because theres less pumping and turning 😁
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Thanks everyone - will probably get both eventually, but for now I grabbed the 9.5" based on shop recommendation. I have a friend with the 6.5", so I may get used to it then switch it up.
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Got the GL210 with a 9.5" pedestal and a friend had a 14.5" flip tip tail. So......two questions:
1. I'm going from M200 with the standard tail.Should I try the GL210 with the standard tail first just to not change too many variables? Is the 14.5" flip tip big enough?
2. Is the orientation of the flip tip tail right? I know it's one way with the 6.5" pedestal and the opposite with the 9". I took it out today, in very small surf and it felt like I was fighting the tail, or plowing in the water.
It may just be something to get used to, or a lack of any sort of power/wave. By tiny, I mean really tiny, ankle-ish, fighting to not hit the bottom on take off type of deal.
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Appst, I think the tail is right but I only have the short pedestal 14 flip.
One thing that I would recommend is to go back to whatever tail you are used to. The HA wing is so much different than the M200 that you will want some consistency. I would also say that the GL210 has less lift than the M200 and that you might benefit from a fat ass Maliko blue tail.
I have been running my GL210 with my Maliko Blue Chopped tail only.
I bought the 14 flip / Short pedestal and felt like I did not have anything to stomp against when trying to get to wing. Its like my back foot pushed down into the water more and I was not able to engage the foil. I know that as I progress the 14 flip will be awesome but I am just sharing my experience with the GL210.
-red
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The tail orientation looks right and it should have enough lift however I used the 14.5 pretty exclusively with the 6.5 and can catch the same waves with the GL180 as I did on my M200.
A few other thoughts:
1) As red_tx said, trying the 210 with the original Maliko tail first isn't a bad idea... that tail is I think 22" wide so stepping down to 14.5" will take getting used to
2) High aspect wings are a step down in initial lift from the Maliko 200 but once you are up and flying it has so much more glide
3) I have a friend that had a Flying V and we noticed the board has some tail rocker and a plate shim kit (https://foilmount.com/products/trim-shim-stackable-hydrofoil-shimming-system) helped a great deal especially in small waves
4) Shimming the 14.5" tail (angling down) can also give you more lift but it also will make the 210 turn faster so there is a tradeoff there (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsX89fH0e3Q)
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Thanks everyone, I should have known better than to change two variables at once, especially on a margional day. I'll go back to the Maliko tail, get some sessions in, and go from there. Maybe chop it down as well.
I will say as the session progressed (again, very, very marginal) I was able to get up on foil with a lot of pumping and it felt quick, just the initial lift felt like I was towing an anchor.
I'm going to look into that trim shim as well, has anyone else used this? I thought about going down to a smaller board/Flying-V, but for now, I'm only changing the single variable of M200 to GL 210 for now.
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I will disagree. I have exactly the same setup and 210 was exactly my next wing. Yes it didn’t have the same lift as maliko on my first 10 waves or so. But I quickly realized that I might have been too front foot heavy. I’d say stick to it - ideally I would recommend to be on 17.5 flip tail (huge difference). Never needed any shims on my JL with Gofoils.
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I will disagree. I have exactly the same setup and 210 was exactly my next wing. Yes it didn’t have the same lift as maliko on my first 10 waves or so. But I quickly realized that I might have been too front foot heavy. I’d say stick to it - ideally I would recommend to be on 17.5 flip tail (huge difference). Never needed any shims on my JL with Gofoils.
I could get the 17.5" flip tail, actually borrowing the 14.5" so I could switch it out. Going to switch back to Maliko tail for now. I felt too back foot heavy, but again, super margional waves, talking barely whitewater breaking in an inlet, knee high at best.
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Hi,
I have been riding the gl240 and NL160. Both for winging and sup. I only use the 6.5" tail with a shopped flat tail to 15".
After testing this setup, I sold the longer tail. Cutting the tail improved my turns and reduced damage on wings and legs. I don't really understand why the companies keep using these sharp tails, when the different in speed is just 1 or 2 knots.
My only advice, is check warranty conditions when buying big wings; the mast tends to brittle when overload.
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Looking forward to getting my hands on this and the PNL185.
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Hi,
I have been riding the gl240 and NL160. Both for winging and sup. I only use the 6.5" tail with a shopped flat tail to 15".
After testing this setup, I sold the longer tail. Cutting the tail improved my turns and reduced damage on wings and legs. I don't really understand why the companies keep using these sharp tails, when the different in speed is just 1 or 2 knots.
My only advice, is check warranty conditions when buying big wings; the mast tends to brittle when overload.
PA, how much do you weigh?
-thanks red
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Looking forward to getting my hands on this and the PNL185.
Surfside, where can I buy the PNL180?
I do not see it anywhere?
Thanks
-red
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red, our local dealer is checking and I'll get back to you.
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red, sent you a PM
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I'm done with tails that aren't two bolts. Very surprised to see GF come out with a new one-piece tail. I want to be able to vary the fuse length and shim them for various feels. I would have thought they would come out with a modern fuselage with an integrated plate mount and a two bolt tail system by now. Get with the program!
I'd be interested in PNL185 as well - but I can't find any information about it anywhere. How about some specs, price, availability. Come on GoFoil - do better!
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Hi,
I have been riding the gl240 and NL160. Both for winging and sup. I only use the 6.5" tail with a shopped flat tail to 15".
After testing this setup, I sold the longer tail. Cutting the tail improved my turns and reduced damage on wings and legs. I don't really understand why the companies keep using these sharp tails, when the different in speed is just 1 or 2 knots.
My only advice, is check warranty conditions when buying big wings; the mast tends to brittle when overload.
PA, how much do you weigh?
I'm 82 kg. The GL240 works for me until 1 to 1,5 meters waves. Over that the NL160 is a must have. I'm using the NL160 for winging, from 12knt; and it can handle waves up to 2-3 meters ok.
-thanks red
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To circle back around to the beginning post, I got the GL 210 with the 14.5" flip tip. Here's the progression:
1st session - changed both wing and tail, hated it, super small (ankle high dribbles)
2nd session - went back to Maliko tail, felt a bit better, still lacking lift, getting worried.
3rd session - a bit better, still feels like I lost a gear.
4th session - big (chest high) dumpy shorebreak, no real test.
5th sesssion - typical foiling conditions, long, slow, knee to thigh high dribbles. Started dialing it in, speed is apparent, figured out that once you get past the initial lack of lift, it will glide through sections the Maliko stalled in.
6th session - added back flip tip tail, felt smoother.
7th - 8th: Perfect, not going back to Maliko.
So........initially hated it, now.....yeah not going back. Lose maybe 10% lift and gain probably 25% efficiency. How does that translate? I was stalling out quite a bit when I would go back to my toeside carve after a deep heelside carve into the section. Now....it glides right through it. Lift wise, I probably need one more quick paddle stroke on in between waves, anything that is easily catchable is still easily catchable.
Next up - board size drop.
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The GL210 is my go-to wing for waves from 3 to 7 feet.
Below this size waves are typically slower and I will grab for the M200 on the West Coast. But on the East Coast have been grabbing the M280.
The wave period matters. East coast waves can be 4 second to 8 second period and SLOW. Whereas small West Coast waves are rarely below 8 second period. They are typically 10 to 12 second period and therefore faster small waves.
Using a more efficient tail with the M200 also helps a lot. I started using the KAI tail and now use the 18" Narrow Flat GoFoil tail which is MUCH less draggy. The cleaner more efficient tails add new life to the fat old wings.
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Appst, I think the tail is right but I only have the short pedestal 14 flip.
One thing that I would recommend is to go back to whatever tail you are used to. The HA wing is so much different than the M200 that you will want some consistency. I would also say that the GL210 has less lift than the M200 and that you might benefit from a fat ass Maliko blue tail.
I have been running my GL210 with my Maliko Blue Chopped tail only.
I bought the 14 flip / Short pedestal and felt like I did not have anything to stomp against when trying to get to wing. Its like my back foot pushed down into the water more and I was not able to engage the foil. I know that as I progress the 14 flip will be awesome but I am just sharing my experience with the GL210.
-red
This....is exactly what is happening to me. I swapped the tail mid-session this AM and absolutely hated the flip tail (I went back to the giant Maliko tail). So.....the question becomes.......chop the Maliko tail or 18" flat or what? It's like the back end is just sticking to the water and I'm not getting up or if I do it's a hell of a lot more effort than with the Maliko tail.
I'd just stick with the Maliko tail, but I'm about to sell that setup to a friend. Any thoughts?
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Appst.
I would just chop the Maliko tail for now and keep trying the 14 flip. The chopped tail provides enough lift to help pop up out of the water and is not too big to still have fun and haul ass.
I think the 18 flat would be better for winging and would not mess with it now..
Focus on getting up on the new HA wings then move to the flat tails.
The first couple of times I rode my 14 flip in the surf I also felt like nothing was there. I quickly moved back to the chopped maliko. It was when I first winged on the 14 flip where I figured it out. It is so fast and it + the GL120 require just more forward board speed and dont/wont jump out of the water like the M200..
You can delay the inevitable with the Malkio Chopped, but the 14 flip is the tail for surf with GF for now.
-red
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Appst.
I would just chop the Maliko tail for now and keep trying the 14 flip. The chopped tail provides enough lift to help pop up out of the water and is not too big to still have fun and haul ass.
I think the 18 flat would be better for winging and would not mess with it now..
Focus on getting up on the new HA wings then move to the flat tails.
The first couple of times I rode my 14 flip in the surf I also felt like nothing was there. I quickly moved back to the chopped maliko. It was when I first winged on the 14 flip where I figured it out. It is so fast and it + the GL120 require just more forward board speed and dont/wont jump out of the water like the M200..
You can delay the inevitable with the Malkio Chopped, but the 14 flip is the tail for surf with GF for now.
-red
Yeah, I mean......with the Maliko tail, I can get the GL210 going in basically nothing, I'm talking ankle to knee non-breaking shite, more efficient than the Maliko, almost the same lift. Put the 14 flip tip on and it feels like it's just pulling me backward when I'm pumping to start and I end up with way too much weight on the tail end. I know it's my technique, but.......even once going it's fidgety at best.
It's frustrating, has anyone worked with shimming the 14.5 flip for more lift?
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Try 17.5 tail, makes a huge difference in pumping for me compared to 14.5
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Anyone that has switched from the 1.0 to 1.5 pedestal, did you stick with the tuttle/plate adapter or just go straight for the plate mount built-in. I'm guessing the 1.5 is stiffer, lighter, etc.?
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Anyone that has switched from the 1.0 to 1.5 pedestal, did you stick with the tuttle/plate adapter or just go straight for the plate mount built-in. I'm guessing the 1.5 is stiffer, lighter, etc.?
I was told by Karla that the 1.5 mast and 1.0 are the same weight for the 29.5 and believe it is the same stiffness too. I imagine the built in plate mount does save some screw weight.
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Anyone that has switched from the 1.0 to 1.5 pedestal, did you stick with the tuttle/plate adapter or just go straight for the plate mount built-in. I'm guessing the 1.5 is stiffer, lighter, etc.?
I was told by Karla that the 1.5 mast and 1.0 are the same weight for the 29.5 and believe it is the same stiffness too. I imagine the built in plate mount does save some screw weight.
So is there any reason to upgrade?
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So is there any reason to upgrade?
I chose to stick with my 1.0. As I understand it, the 1.5 has higher tolerance on the fuselage to fit the new wings but my 1.0 29.5 is pretty close. There are also different lengths with the plate mounts. Oh, with regards to stiffness, the 29.5 has a wider chord than the 28.5 so that one is stiffer. Not sure if the 32.5 and 29.5 plate mount are even wider or same as the 1.0 29.5. The 1.5 wings are noticeably lighter than 1.0 wings.
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It's frustrating, has anyone worked with shimming the 14.5 flip for more lift?
Yes, I use a washer on the 14.5.
Been riding the KDM 15" the last couple of days in knee to thigh and it's really nice. The shims are too.
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It's frustrating, has anyone worked with shimming the 14.5 flip for more lift?
Yes, I use a washer on the 14.5.
Been riding the KDM 15" the last couple of days in knee to thigh and it's really nice. The shims are too.
Isn't it awesome!?!? I switched from the 14.5 to the KDM 13.5 and it is amazing!
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Try 17.5 tail, makes a huge difference in pumping for me compared to 14.5
Good call - night and day, got the 17.5 works perfect. No washer/shim adjustments yet. Thanks.
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👍 I tried shimming this and that but I think Gofoil is perfect at its default settings. But that’s just my opinion.
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👍 I tried shimming this and that but I think Gofoil is perfect at its default settings. But that’s just my opinion.
Yeah, I mean......I changed two variables at once which I typically don't like to do (new 1.5 plate mount pedestal vs. 1.0) and the tail, but it was the best session in rather shitty conditions I've had in awhile. No more humming, nice and stiff in the water on the mast. I have as a general rule in smalish surf moved the plate to almost the very front of the box, I feel like it has helped the GL210 get going initially. It took some sessions but now I'm done with the Maliko.
I have a Iwa wing someone traded me for the 14.5 flip tip, I may try it out in bigger surf.