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The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: PonoBill on April 29, 2021, 09:24:44 AM

Title: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: PonoBill on April 29, 2021, 09:24:44 AM
After a lot of wing changing and fiddling in different conditions I've settled on the Axis 1000/390 tail for winging. I'm going to stick with that for the rest of this Maui wingfoiling season and quit fucking around with wings so I can concentrate on learning and getting better.

That may come as a surprise after all my praise for the 1150 and tentative appreciation for the 1300, and how much fun the 860 is, but they are all sort of special-purpose wings, and the 1000 always works.

I'm stating this as much as a reminder for myself, that if I optimize my use of a single wing and get fully comfortable with it, I can ignore the foil characteristics and concentrate on form and technique.
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: cnski on April 29, 2021, 10:04:16 AM
From all your previous posts I would hope you get on a steady routine of wing maintenance and repair. Wing fiddling.
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Hilly on April 29, 2021, 06:02:42 PM
After a lot of wing changing and fiddling in different conditions I've settled on the Axis 1000/390 tail for winging. I'm going to stick with that for the rest of this Maui wingfoiling season and quit fucking around with wings so I can concentrate on learning and getting better.

That may come as a surprise after all my praise for the 1150 and tentative appreciation for the 1300, and how much fun the 860 is, but they are all sort of special-purpose wings, and the 1000 always works.

I'm stating this as much as a reminder for myself, that if I optimize my use of a single wing and get fully comfortable with it, I can ignore the foil characteristics and concentrate on form and technique.
Less change the better. I use chopped 1250, 60 fuse, 85 mast and 15" KD tail for both ding and sup foil.
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Califoilia on April 29, 2021, 06:45:35 PM
The 1000/390 is a tough setup to beat...both for winging (from what my winger guys are telling me), and as a nice sup foil setup when it's not macking. In waist size and below, it pops up on foil easily, glides great, turns really well for its length w/ and ultra short fuse, and pumps incredibly.

Now I prefer its smaller brother the 900 still paired with the 390 in the surf, but have a lot of guys still digging their 1000, and who do really well with it.
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: PonoBill on April 30, 2021, 01:02:29 AM
I've been using the 1000/390 for about a year off and on. I like fiddling with gear, but I think it's holding me back. I know pushing the 1150 in high wind makes for a jumpy ride but I do it because I like the wing in transitions. But after reflection, I realize I'm paying too much attention to what the wing is doing. I'm not developing wings, I'm trying to improve my foiling. So that's what I plan to concentrate on. One setup. Like Richard Feynman deciding his desert was always going to be chocolate ice cream. Saves on decisions.
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: daswusup on April 30, 2021, 06:12:12 AM
That's great that you have narrowed it down to an old iphone 6......but that one set up should definitely be a 1050/390 Black. The 1000 is sooo last year(light years in foilfroth time). Sorry in advance ;D
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: AGK on April 30, 2021, 06:41:15 AM
As another ex-1000 rider, my vote for the one-wing-make-everything-work foil is 1060/420
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Dontsink on April 30, 2021, 06:49:42 AM
I've been using the 1000/390 for about a year off and on. I like fiddling with gear, but I think it's holding me back. I know pushing the 1150 in high wind makes for a jumpy ride but I do it because I like the wing in transitions. But after reflection, I realize I'm paying too much attention to what the wing is doing. I'm not developing wings, I'm trying to improve my foiling. So that's what I plan to concentrate on. One setup. Like Richard Feynman deciding his desert was always going to be chocolate ice cream. Saves on decisions.

I am guilty of this, i like changing things and tweaking them too much.
I am 100% sure i would be foiling way better if i stopped messing around and focused on improving my abilities and not the gear.
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: paddlur on April 30, 2021, 07:05:50 AM
As another ex-1000 rider, my vote for the one-wing-make-everything-work foil is 1060/420
X2 Same here thatís my fav winging set up hands down.Bill you gotta try the 1060/420 great big guy set up as well,especially in waves!and when is light day the 1120/420 the 1120 is a amazing wind wing for the HW wingers and for its size is very fun in the surf
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on April 30, 2021, 07:07:30 AM
When youíre my age, always try new gear with one thing in mind. Do I ride better on this gear? Will this gear help me advance?

If not, I reject it immediately. Iíve already reject lots of gear loved here. Stay focused on whatís important.

Really good gear is easy, and surprisingly high performance sometimes.
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Mike dubs on April 30, 2021, 08:15:40 AM
Iíve been at this for a year now from a non foiling windsurf/kitesurf background. I definitely think you can disappear down a rabbit hole with gear, changing, swapping foils and having good/bad days that could be the result of the swap or just could be you or different water conditions messing with u.

I am now down to a 1060/910 and 390 gap for all conditions and I just focussed on my skill. Iím riding better, foot swap gybes 80% of the time. Once I can ride waves more consistently and tack, then I might think about the next set up.

Just like in windsurf and kitesurf, less gear/options means u just get out and ride rather than worry about going in and changing something.
Mike
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: PonoBill on April 30, 2021, 10:21:04 AM
Wow, I just told a bunch of crack dealers that I'm going to settle on a single flavor of crack.
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Califoilia on April 30, 2021, 05:36:14 PM
That's great that you have narrowed it down to an old iphone 6......but that one set up should definitely be a 1050/390 Black. The 1000 is sooo last year(light years in foilfroth time). Sorry in advance ;D
Hahaha...yeah, the 1050 is a great wing also!! I prefer it with a little looser tail (either a cut 370, 420, or 380), but it's a surprisingly fun wing in small surf (https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,37041.msg426501.html#msg426501) as well...so I can imagine it would be a great wingding wing. 👍🏽😁
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: surfcowboy on May 03, 2021, 08:41:11 PM
You guys are all jerks. Haha.

Here Pono, Iíll help you.

ďHey guys I hear that 1000 is the hot new thing. Kane/Gunnar/Balz/Titouan (pick one) said itís his new fav.Ē

Guys, help Bill out and repost that in various versions lol. And remind me to never visit you guys fresh out of rehab.  :)
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: PonoBill on May 04, 2021, 08:47:41 AM
Actually, I'm pretty happy with my choice, I'm making some progress. I chickened out yesterday and used the 1150 because the wind was light (used a 5.0 wing). I missed a couple of jibes that I should have made, at least in part because of the long glide characteristics of the 1150. Where I might have briefly touched with the 1000 and continued, I made it all the way through the jibe and stalled out during the foot switch with the 1150. From the standpoint of getting this stuff cemented into muscle memory, I think I'm better off foiling away from a jibe that's a little compromised than crashing after one that's better.
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 04, 2021, 09:17:48 AM
You probably wonít believe me, but if you got the HPS-1050 youíd become a jibing hero and never use the 1000 or 1150 again.

The 1150 is fine, if all you want to do is go straight and pump 2 for 1s. That is not you. The 1000 has an abrupt shutoff speed threshold that is poor by modern standards. The 1000 is a jibe hero machine, provided the wind is super solid.

The 1050 is a jibe hero machine with no negatives. Average skill required. Not a beginner foil. Beginners should go BSC-1060

Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: cnski on May 04, 2021, 04:36:03 PM
I just got the 1050 and found it to be hella hard to get on foil at 245 lbs. The only Axis wings I've rode are the 1150 and 1300 and I weigh 245 lbs so that kind of explains it. I need to be very powered to get going. Need to spend more time on it before I pass too much judgement. Definately a higher gear than the 1150 and 1300 which is a blast.
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 05, 2021, 04:41:03 AM
A straight tail board changes everything with the HPS foils. They are so low in drag, they reach minimum foiling speed really easy with a straight tail.
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 05, 2021, 09:19:04 AM
I just heard from a buddy who is 6í4 225 lbs riding a straight tail with the HPS-980. He says the old style board feels like a sea anchor. He says he can ride smaller foils now.

Iím starting to see more straight tails in production. There is the original 5í4 Sky board, then these.

https://shop.indiana-paddlesurf.com/foil-boards/wind-foil-boards.html

https://www.instagram.com/p/COcrPQOLwQd/?igshid=puwvhco7ynnr
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Dontsink on May 05, 2021, 10:59:00 AM
I have straightened the tails of my boards.
EVA foam routered to the exact angle and stuck with contact glue.
It works really good,first thing you notice is a substantial increase in stability in float mode,then much better glide.
With decent wind you just go up on foil smoother and earlier.
In marginal conditions requiring a big pump of the board to rise a bit on the mast it demands more back foot pressure but it also makes it a lot easier not to overdo the angle of attack and stall the foil,this is great for thinner,more advanced foil shapes.
I think it is just better,period.

Makes me wonder if big manufacturers do any actual R&D or they just copy what smaller shapers like Dwight are doing and put fancy names on it.
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: jondrums on May 05, 2021, 12:09:08 PM
I think what you're talking about is the key difference between using a wave to accelerate up on foil and using a wing for propulsion.

Shapers spent a ton of time optimizing boards for catching waves and then transferred that over to winging.  We're finally starting to see the features diverge, which is awesome!
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Dontsink on May 05, 2021, 01:12:25 PM
Not sure about that...
My SUPfoil gets into waves earlier and easier with the foam straight tail.Paddles out quicker too.
Kane de Wilde is using straight tails too, i think for his downwind SUP he used a V straight tail because downwind requires a big pump to get into a small chop.
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: cnski on May 06, 2021, 07:36:04 AM
I knew I should have made the tail of my board straight last year when it was being built but went with tail kick. I succumbed to the status quo of current foilboard design. We kept the rails hard with no bevel though. I have access to 2 new NJS boards and a Flyingdutchman to test, both with straight tails so there is hope for my 1050 yet.
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Wave Chaser on May 06, 2021, 10:03:41 AM
I have straightened the tails of my boards.
EVA foam routered to the exact angle and stuck with contact glue.
It works really good,first thing you notice is a substantial increase in stability in float mode,then much better glide.
With decent wind you just go up on foil smoother and earlier.
In marginal conditions requiring a big pump of the board to rise a bit on the mast it demands more back foot pressure but it also makes it a lot easier not to overdo the angle of attack and stall the foil,this is great for thinner,more advanced foil shapes.
I think it is just better,period.

Makes me wonder if big manufacturers do any actual R&D or they just copy what smaller shapers like Dwight are doing and put fancy names on it."



So I think I might give this a try.  My question is, given that my board is about 4" thick, should I use a 4" thick block of EVA foam (obviously cut into a triangle to fit the chopped tail of the board) and basically flatten the whole tail?  My concern is that this will change the sweet spot for the mast and I am already all the way back in the track.  Would it work just as well to use a 2" thick block?  I guess that at slow speed, a release edge that is too small could still allow water to wrap around (up) the tail and keep your speed down... :-\
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Wave Chaser on May 06, 2021, 10:06:37 AM
In other words, why not do something like the Slingshot Wingcraft V1, a hybrid that gives you the best of both tail designs?
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 06, 2021, 11:24:44 AM
My question is, given that my board is about 4" thick, should I use a 4" thick block of EVA foam (obviously cut into a triangle to fit the chopped tail of the board) and basically flatten the whole tail?  My concern is that this will change the sweet spot for the mast and I am already all the way back in the track. 

It does change the sweet spot a lot. On my board, the tracks had to go back 2 inches.
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Wave Chaser on May 06, 2021, 06:13:47 PM
OK, so this brings up more questions for me:  How big does a release edge have to be in order for the water not to wrap and suck power?  I realize that at high speed, perhaps as little as 1/4" could work (like my 2005 underground kiteboard).  And at very low speed, and if the board is low in volume relative to the weight of the person, then even something as big as 2 inches could still wrap and suck power.  So, lots of variables...  But let's say that, in my case for example, I weigh 63kg and my wing board is 71l and has a chopped tail.  When I am pumping at sub plaining speeds, trying to fly my Axis 980 foil, how big does my release edge need to be?  This is an important question because if I only need a small one, then perhaps I can do this simple mod to my board without needing to adjust my mast placement (which is already maxed out to the rear of the mast track).  I ride strapless, so a little adjustment is no big deal.  But 2 inches is a lot.
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 06, 2021, 06:26:37 PM
A long while back I had done several variations on the tail bevel. Sharp release edge, rounded, angled. It was tough to detect much difference. It wasnít until I tried full straight to the back, that I went wow, big difference.

Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: PonoBill on May 06, 2021, 09:35:04 PM
What mechanism do you visualize that allows water that is already no longer in contact with the board to "suck power".
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Dontsink on May 07, 2021, 12:41:31 AM
OK, so this brings up more questions for me:  How big does a release edge have to be in order for the water not to wrap and suck power?  I realize that at high speed, perhaps as little as 1/4" could work (like my 2005 underground kiteboard).  And at very low speed, and if the board is low in volume relative to the weight of the person, then even something as big as 2 inches could still wrap and suck power.  So, lots of variables...  But let's say that, in my case for example, I weigh 63kg and my wing board is 71l and has a chopped tail.  When I am pumping at sub plaining speeds, trying to fly my Axis 980 foil, how big does my release edge need to be?  This is an important question because if I only need a small one, then perhaps I can do this simple mod to my board without needing to adjust my mast placement (which is already maxed out to the rear of the mast track).  I ride strapless, so a little adjustment is no big deal.  But 2 inches is a lot.

Not much...read this.
https://kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=201&t=2408230
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Solent Foiler on May 07, 2021, 03:35:57 AM
This is all really interested stuff - enjoying the discussion. It confirms what I had accidentally discovered on my sinker board (5'3 x 19 34L) which had a straight tail. I'm thinking of getting a custom light wind board made in a similar style to that sinker board which has long shallow side bevels so only the middle third of the board is flat. I think this helps with water release and makes the touch downs softer, and maybe helps getting through chop when taking off so would want to keep that shape. Dimensions about 5' x 20 (I think I want this board narrow) and 75 litres which is +10 for me with the volume packed under my feet as far as possible with a squared tail.

I've no experience with board design but applying what I've learned to try and come up with something that suits what I want. Does this sound like a decent shape? Would welcome any comments...
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 07, 2021, 04:19:14 AM
Dimensions about 5' x 20 (I think I want this board narrow) and 75 litres which is +10 for me with the volume packed under my feet as far as possible with a squared tail.


I think wider is more enjoyable and easier.  My kite foil board was 5 x 20, then settled on 4í9 x 20.5. Winging Iíve enjoyed wider more. More room for my feet, more room for foot offset, to give more power and control. At +10 liters, Iíd take those liters and enjoy something like 4í9 x 24.5

Now looking at how hull design works. Narrow is faster at sub planing speed. Wider planes up earlier.
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Solent Foiler on May 07, 2021, 06:08:17 AM
Dimensions about 5' x 20 (I think I want this board narrow) and 75 litres which is +10 for me with the volume packed under my feet as far as possible with a squared tail.


I think wider is more enjoyable and easier.  My kite foil board was 5 x 20, then settled on 4í9 x 20.5. Winging Iíve enjoyed wider more. More room for my feet, more room for foot offset, to give more power and control. At +10 liters, Iíd take those liters and enjoy something like 4í9 x 24.5

Now looking at how hull design works. Narrow is faster at sub planing speed. Wider planes up earlier.

Many thanks for the feedback DW - good points. I think the overarching purpose of this board is to get foiling as early as possible on big foils (1900 and 1600 Veloce). It will be used in tandem with the 34L sinker which I'll use once the lulls are 15+ knots.

Totally take the wider board point - my back foot wonders all over the place and I appreciate what the additional leverage a wider board can bring - I use a front strap. Think I'd be willing to sacrifice that a bit for early foiling though.

This is how it's playing out in my head...

What I'm really after with the length and narrowness is that hull speed through the water, being able to drive the board hard when pumping the wing and not lose speed in between pumps, especially in the chop I get from other watercraft etc.

A longer narrow board will cut through chop better but also have a smoother transition into planing so shouldn't drop off the back of it's own bow wave so quickly. The planing speed might be higher, but I'm thinking that by the time I'm getting close to that I'll be able to pump the foil a bit to help generate speed.

As has already been mentioned, the straight tail helps pumping HA wings by restricting how aggressive you can be. Similarly, I tend to reach quite far forward when pumping the wing which often overloads the nose of my current big board, the 4'6 Lethal. So some more length will help control nose diving and keep the foil more stable and so create less drag while I'm being less than delicate with my wing pump.

Less lateral stability when on the water I think I can live with. With a foil hanging off the bottom, than should provide enough especially if the length lessenes the pitch instability.

The length and straighter rails should also help slogging upwind if I need to. The round shape of the Lethal doesn't help it there I don't think.

Finally narrow boards are nice to foil because it gives you so much space to work with when the board is leaned over. Being a light wind board it won't be doing anything aggressive, but still nice to have.

Trade off is swing weight and less leverage over the foil as above, and a board that may be awkward in some ways. I just can't get my head around whether my thought process will give me something that 1) works 2) will be fun to use 3) I don't need once my technique gets better.

I'm kinda looking for someone to talk me out of it to be honest!
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 07, 2021, 07:08:36 AM

I'm kinda looking for someone to talk me out of it to be honest!

Beg someone for a demo ride on the Indiana wing board. File what you learn, then design your next board.
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 08, 2021, 11:41:47 AM
Straight

https://www.instagram.com/p/COnvsZ3LccR/?igshid=g09o5kdg29rx
Title: Re: Foil wing fiddling
Post by: Solent Foiler on June 03, 2021, 02:09:19 PM
https://youtu.be/mUaVM2Hk008 (https://youtu.be/mUaVM2Hk008)

Patrice offers his view on wing board design. Takes a minute to get into the interesting stuff...

I have this board and can confirm that I can't feel it sticking on take off. Whether a straight tail is better, I couldn't say but a straight tail does make sense to me too...
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