Standup Zone Forum

The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Dontsink on April 17, 2021, 08:00:39 PM

Title: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: Dontsink on April 17, 2021, 08:00:39 PM
Sometimes in low wind i go into a jibe and run into the Wing because i overtake it.

I saw the latest Gong vid and they do a few of this "Lay Down" windsurf style jibes,entry like a 360 and flip the sail just as it begins to backwind.

This may be better for lightish conditions as you cannot run into the Wing, i have not tried it yet.

Good example at 04:56 :

https://youtu.be/RxQidHlNJd8

Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: PonoBill on April 17, 2021, 09:45:09 PM
Looks good. I've got to try that.

I lost my windsurfing mojo in the late 90's after roughly ten years of running to the Gorge or Manzanita every time I had a spare moment. I tore up my rotator cuffs (eventually both sides) playing rollerblade hockey and was out for about ten years getting my shoulders to work again. When I came back I could do a lot of things (King of the light wind waterstart for one) but I could not do a standard carving jibe, or duck, or step. After a few weeks of pounding my head against a wall I discovered I could still do a clean laydown jibe, which was probably the last jibe I learned. It's still the only planing windsurfing jibe I can pull off, but I can knock those off like I know what I'm doing.
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: supunk on April 18, 2021, 12:39:22 PM
Interested to see these. Have been doing them for sometime for heel side to toe side gybes. They are a really speedy, powered way to gybe. Feel really fluid when you get them dialled. Never seen one documented before.  :)
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: blueplanetsurf on April 18, 2021, 12:44:55 PM
Jibes in light wind are tricky because you often move downwind faster than the wind speed so if you get the wing vertical in front of you it gets backwinded and you loose your speed.  Sheeting in the wing through the turn like in the video works, duck jibes also work well in light wind, or keeping the wing more horizontal in the jibe, spinning the wing quickly overhead and making a tight turn so you don't outrun the wind before powering up in the other direction.
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: Wingfoil1 on April 19, 2021, 01:52:17 AM
The duck gybe is the best and easiest way to gybe in underpowered conditions. As soon as you let go of your front hand you get a little bit of power in the wing that helps you complete the gybe. The Balz Muller learning video (part 2) explains in detail how to do them
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: supunk on April 19, 2021, 03:47:44 AM
When you get it right it feels slicker and faster than a regular duck gybe to me. Its a tweaked duck gybe :)
Clip laying down a few alternate tacks and tweaks
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CHQno5jjkeo/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Sorry for the head spinning orientation  ;D
Proceed as if you are going to do a 360 then just as you are about to backwind tumble the wing over your head. The wind will take it. Wish I had a clip from a viewers perspective. The Gong clip shows it perfectly.
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: Dontsink on April 19, 2021, 09:36:24 AM
When you get it right it feels slicker and faster than a regular duck gybe to me. Its a tweaked duck gybe :)
Clip laying down a few alternate tacks and tweaks
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CHQno5jjkeo/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Sorry for the head spinning orientation  ;D
Proceed as if you are going to do a 360 then just as you are about to backwind tumble the wing over your head. The wind will take it. Wish I had a clip from a viewers perspective. The Gong clip shows it perfectly.

Nice (upside down :) ) vid!.Great examples of the jibe in question.

The advantage i see in the lay down jibes is that the wing is off to the side and aligned with wind and boardspeed in the downwind phase,which is were apparent wind will drop to zero or even negative.

I guess this is why windsurfers adopted it as standard for slalom jibes or big bottom turns.

I have to practice this, they look way cooler than standard jibes too IMHO.
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: Solent Foiler on April 19, 2021, 09:40:01 AM
I stumbled across this gybe variation (I called it a 'flip gybe' in my head) when first attempting 360s but not tried it in the light. Thought that as it needs the wind to fill in from behind to complete it nicely, I would lose too much speed waiting for the wind to catch up. I'm a spin the wing quickly and crank in a turn kinda guy as it keeps the weight of the wing on the inside of the turn for longer which helps turn my big foil, but will try duck gybes next time it's light...
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: juandesooka on April 19, 2021, 11:11:44 AM
interesting variation....going to have to do some dancing on the beach to figure out the mechanics of that.

Had a few extreme light wind days lately, where I can just barely stay up on foil and not enough speed or lift to get through the turn.  In these sessions I've been focusing on pumping training for surf foiling.  An interesting experiment has been pumping downwind through the turns, generates enough speed to keep wing stable. 

I am thinking this may also be an interesting option for learning to tack ... eg if I can pump upwind with wing luffed, then just turn the other way, re-engage, and off I go.  Dunno....tacks elude me....never could get that figured out kiting either.
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: surfcowboy on April 19, 2021, 07:01:30 PM
Can someone post some time stamps of where they are doing this move in the video?
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: jondrums on April 19, 2021, 09:23:40 PM
1:48 and 4:55
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: Beasho on April 20, 2021, 06:56:55 AM
Here.  Graceful and compelling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vboTw9JpFc
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: supunk on April 20, 2021, 08:44:10 AM
Thatís it. Thanks Beasho  ;)
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: PonoBill on April 20, 2021, 10:18:15 AM
Damn, that's the way to do it. I'm going to put that on an infinite play loop in my head until I get it. The wing move is certainly something to practice on the beach. I've been trying to onehand the wing over my head in a jibe--it works on a tack. In a jibe, so far it's a sure way to get yanked off the board to the inside. I think that laydown move might work in higher wind if I hold enough speed. 
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: Solent Foiler on April 20, 2021, 11:53:06 AM
Having watched that clip my only comment is that I find it much easier to complete it with my front hand in an over grip rather than an under, so might be worth experimenting on the beach to see which you prefer.
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: PonoBill on April 20, 2021, 07:58:49 PM
I don't do under grips except on silly long runs when my wrist starts to ache. I really don't know why that doesn't work for me, it seems like a trivial difference, but I have much less control with an under grip, especially on the front hand. I can get away with more on the back.

I really, really want to do this jibe in high wind with a small wing. I think it would be over before I even get a chance to fall. Especially if I commit to a tight, high speed turn. We can do this. Right stuff. All that crap.
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: Beasho on April 21, 2021, 10:50:54 AM
Reposting to Motivate People.  Get it Done!

https://youtu.be/0vboTw9JpFc
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: juandesooka on April 21, 2021, 11:51:13 AM
Watching this over and over ... smooth and cool and effective. Would be particularly awesome for turning into waves with speed....avoiding that awkward half second pause as you change hands.

But then the worries and fears and reality check kick in: lighter wind with larger wings, or not being as high on the foil as you should be, you will at some point catch leading edge as you turn.  The drag will mean you come off foil mid turn.  Wing position downwind means your body will land across the wing backwards.  I am wearing a harness hook, so that's a potential rip.  The board and foil at that point will be upwind and moving at speed, good chance it'll run into the leading edge of wing....potential pop.  Adding in murphy's law the board may also flip and then land foil into canopy....more rip potential.

So ... does the potential benefit justify the potential cost?  I think I leaning towards being negative nelly this morning ... for what is a fairly straightforward regular turn, I don't think it's worth the risks for me.  But hey, permanent intermediate over here, I won't ever be winning any style contests.   ;D

Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: Dontsink on April 21, 2021, 01:10:54 PM
https://youtu.be/B6c15mVS0pk

At 1:11 another beautiful example
Quite a few in this vid
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: Dontsink on April 21, 2021, 01:55:47 PM
Watching this over and over ... smooth and cool and effective. Would be particularly awesome for turning into waves with speed....avoiding that awkward half second pause as you change hands.

But then the worries and fears and reality check kick in: lighter wind with larger wings, or not being as high on the foil as you should be, you will at some point catch leading edge as you turn.  The drag will mean you come off foil mid turn.  Wing position downwind means your body will land across the wing backwards.  I am wearing a harness hook, so that's a potential rip.  The board and foil at that point will be upwind and moving at speed, good chance it'll run into the leading edge of wing....potential pop.  Adding in murphy's law the board may also flip and then land foil into canopy....more rip potential.

So ... does the potential benefit justify the potential cost?  I think I leaning towards being negative nelly this morning ... for what is a fairly straightforward regular turn, I don't think it's worth the risks for me.  But hey, permanent intermediate over here, I won't ever be winning any style contests.   ;D

I have not tried them yet so this is just me blabbing off...but from what i see in the Gong vid and this last one i posted (good one at 1:46) the leading edge never goes below deck height.
They seem to almost touch their feet with it.

Three more days in the city and i'm off to the coast,will give this a try for sure!.
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: Dontsink on April 27, 2021, 02:21:37 PM
Today i tried this jibe a few times, the first one came out perfect,beginner's luck...Two fails on my bad side and another two sketchy but ok on both sides.

So it is reasonably easy,and it felt really good to go in full speed in the weakening wind without worrying about the wing backing into me.More tomorrow,liked it.
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: SUPeter on May 24, 2021, 06:44:36 AM
This "lay down jibe" happens to me when I screw up my Carving 360s.  I guess i need to polish it up a bit.
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: Dontsink on May 24, 2021, 07:18:22 AM
I am liking it a lot, in flat water you can really charge into the jibe at full throttle.Long radius flowy turn.
Still working on more bumpy terrain,keeping the foil in the water and carving at speed is hard :)
Title: Re: "Lay down Jibe" - Better for Light wind?
Post by: PonoBill on May 24, 2021, 09:20:20 AM
I'm working on this, I've given up on heel/toeside and just concentrating on switching feet during the jibe. I'm getting a few, and I tried a few laydown style yesterday. I more or less got one, though I touched down and couldn't pump right back up, the wind pooped out on me.
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