Standup Zone Forum

The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Caribsurf on April 09, 2021, 01:33:01 PM

Title: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Caribsurf on April 09, 2021, 01:33:01 PM
I own the original Duotone 4m and 5m with booms and one Unit 6m no boom, so itís hard for me to compare.  The Unit has a lot of power and wondering how much more power an inflatable strut adds versus same sized wing with the boom set up?

I ask because I am thinking of buying a 5m Duotone Unit for travel and wondering how the power would compare to my Duotone 5m with boom?  Hopefully it will be more powerful with that inflatable strut catching a lot more wind.  I donít want to travel with 2 wings if I can help it

Thanks

Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Dwight (DW) on April 09, 2021, 03:54:57 PM
Strut or boom has nothing to do with power. The power changes come from design generations. The newer the design, the more power. So Slick basically makes Unit and Echo obsolete. Although marketing would like you to believe something else so they can unload whatís in inventory.

When the market is mature, the power increases will plateau

Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: cnski on April 09, 2021, 05:59:15 PM
The Unit is an incredibly powerful wing. Newer generation wings hopefully have more power, better low and top end but you know from windsurfing and kiting that newer doesn't necessarily mean better. Plenty of next generation sails and kites have turned out to be dogs compared to the previous generation. R&D gone bad. Still waiting for a review comparing the Slick to the Echo and Unit. Hopefully the draft is moved a touch aft IMO. The unboxing videos of the Slick are a good look at this exciting wing though. Dwight- Hundred bucks says you will have a quiver of Slicks as soon as they come out and you will drop those heavy Ensis wings like a hot potato. Your poor wife's arms!! She must be pissed....jk. Everyone get ready for half price Ensis wings on The Zone.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Dwight (DW) on April 09, 2021, 06:11:48 PM
The Unit is an incredibly powerful wing. Newer generation wings hopefully have more power, better low and top end but you know from windsurfing and kiting that newer doesn't necessarily mean better. Plenty of next generation sails and kites have turned out to be dogs compared to the previous generation. R&D gone bad. Still waiting for a review comparing the Slick to the Echo and Unit. Hopefully the draft is moved a touch aft IMO. The unboxing videos of the Slick are a good look at this exciting wing though. Dwight- Hundred bucks says you will have a quiver of Slicks as soon as they come out and you will drop those heavy Ensis wings like a hot potato. Your poor wife's arms!! She must be pissed....jk. Everyone get ready for half price Ensis wings on The Zone.

Nope. The next generation Ensis wings ship to me May 15th. A full quiver.

Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Caribsurf on April 09, 2021, 08:34:20 PM
Strut or boom has nothing to do with power. The power changes come from design generations. The newer the design, the more power. So Slick basically makes Unit and Echo obsolete. Although marketing would like you to believe something else so they can unload whatís in inventory.

When the market is mature, the power increases will plateau

But Dwight it feels to me like the strut catches wind that the boom would allow to escape? Maybe itís my imagination, but the Unit just feels to have more power. I know at 6m itís larger than Duotone 4 and 5m, but something about the design/construction has me  thinking a Unit 5m with the strut is more powerful than the Duotone 5m with boom.  I hope I am right
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Hdip on April 09, 2021, 11:13:23 PM
Everyone get ready for half price Ensis wings on The Zone.

So do we pm him now or do we just furiously refresh? Or does he throw one in the box when he ships you a board like a Willy wonka golden ticket?
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Dwight (DW) on April 10, 2021, 04:34:39 AM

But Dwight it feels to me like the strut catches wind that the boom would allow to escape? Maybe itís my imagination, but the Unit just feels to have more power. I know at 6m itís larger than Duotone 4 and 5m, but something about the design/construction has me  thinking a Unit 5m with the strut is more powerful than the Duotone 5m with boom.  I hope I am right

In the order Ken designed them

1) Duotone wing foil
2) Duotone Echo
3) Duotone Unit
4) Duotone Slick

Also in the same order of power. 1) being least.

1) Naish wing surfer
2) Naish s25
3) Naish s26

Also in the same order of power. 1) being least.

Itís 1999 all over again in the kiting world. The first few years...
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: red_tx on April 10, 2021, 06:46:47 AM
Awesome thread.
I have several sLing wings and on the V2s there is a handle slot missing in the middle. It makes me have to do a huge quick reach in order to get to the back handle (as I am standing up quickly)... I argue with Dawsup on this topic. So much so that he built a middle handle to fill the gap.

Anyway.. those of you who are are learning and or experienced know that there is a quick series of steps that need to happen in order and accurately, in order to get up on a smaller board. (foil or no foil)

I have always wanted a boom and will most likely try one next. I can see doing little one handed slidies across the boom to get the wing in the right position

I am mainly thinking the boom works better with one hand. (yes one hand)

Without ever trying one I am guessing that the freedom to put your hands anywhere on the bar is great. 

-red
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Dwight (DW) on April 10, 2021, 08:07:57 AM


Without ever trying one I am guessing that the freedom to put your hands anywhere on the bar is great. 

-red

You nailed it. It sets you free.

Thatís why, even with handles, Iím only interested in wings with long handles. No more small loop handles that make you do the finger walk from handle to handle.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: paddlur on April 10, 2021, 10:35:11 AM


Without ever trying one I am guessing that the freedom to put your hands anywhere on the bar is great. 

-red

You nailed it. It sets you free.

Thatís why, even with handles, Iím only interested in wings with long handles. No more small loop handles that make you do the finger walk from handle to handle.
Agree Ensis is at the moment leading the charge with there long strut length handle it is the best handle for all weights and sizes and styles everyone can find there sweet spot! Just hope on the new Ensis gen the 6m gets a little revise as all my Ensis 5.2 4.5 3.5 are all just excellent wings especially when flagged out waveriding.the 6m was odd wing out it needs a little work on pulling wingtips in less span to minimize wingtip drags next time around
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: deja vu on April 10, 2021, 01:19:38 PM
The handles on the Takuma look very similar to those on the Ensis.

https://www.mackiteboarding.com/takuma-wing-ride-iii/
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: pafoil on April 10, 2021, 11:48:38 PM
I have the echo's for jumping, and the slingshot v2 for surfing.
I wish I can always use a boom, as there is a huge difference in control and handling.
I tried the slingwing with a carbon miniboom, (Armstrong stile), and the weight was noticible  when surfing.
I'm tempted with the new duotone slick, but I will wait until I can test it; or to see what the tarifa duotone guys do.
Some of these duotone riders went back to the echo after testing the "unit" for a few weeks, so that was a big NO for the unit.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: daswusup on April 11, 2021, 07:33:07 AM
Cut down kitebar miniboom. Haven't tried it yet because all I want to ride are my Darts.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: red_tx on April 24, 2021, 05:25:42 AM

I have always wanted a boom and will most likely try one next. I can see doing little one handed slidies across the boom to get the wing in the right position

I am mainly thinking the boom works better with one hand. (yes one hand)

Without ever trying one I am guessing that the freedom to put your hands anywhere on the bar is great. 

-red

Team see Alan do One handed "slidies" on the Duo, exactly where I thought I would use it.. its the in water get up where you need a one arm pull up from the center/center front of the boom.

see second 8-12 from one of the bests guy out there IMO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcGubw9qsHQ&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: surfcowboy on April 24, 2021, 08:28:44 AM
Cabrinha Mantis (and others) great long stiff handles. Great compromise. Light wing (to me) and relatively well priced.

As usual DW is sensible about the progression. Iím betting that while there are better/worse. The gen 3+ wings are all pretty dang good going forward. Iím looking for a gen 2 used wing but might actually just hold off til supply chain fills in since so much of my local wind range is covered by a 5 right now. Iíll live, especially as the summer comes in.

The future is bright.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: PonoBill on April 24, 2021, 07:17:22 PM
It's so simple to make a fake boom, I don't get why people who want a boom don't do it. I've been using mine since I first bought F-ones a year and a half ago. Best of both worlds. The Unit is begging for one--the deeply curved strut absolutely calls for one. You make one fake boom, put your harness lines on it, and it works for every non-boom wing you ever have. I've looked at the slicks very carefully, and they are ridiculously close to being Units with fake booms. I think a Unit with a fake boom that extends one hand distance beyond the rear handle would be magic for torquing up on the foil in light wind. I wish I'd bought a 6 and 7M Unit instead of echos--anyone want to trade? Eliminate the middle handle, add a fake boom and you have a Slick-ish.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: deja vu on May 13, 2021, 04:17:13 PM
Two long "mini booms":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je5Tjr-CQy0
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Esteban on May 13, 2021, 05:12:57 PM
started on Duotone Echo w boom because thats what found to buy and seemed like an easy progression for me as an ex windsurfer ...then bought some Units because I thought it would be easier for traveling ( slightly more compact when packed up)

the big drawbacks i found to the Unit , or any wing with handles are this: when you pull the wing across the board and go to grab the second handle it can be quite a reach and if you don't nail it ya gotta start all over. then there is the squishiness of the handles, there is no way you can one hand spin a wing as fast as a boom due to the more direct movement transfer of the rigid boom...the boom makes it so nice for one-handed handling of the wing

starting is so easy one handed with the boom as well, just grab it in about the right spot and pull across and up!
the small amount of extra weight is well worth these advantages IMHO, I am sure I will get some feedback here though ;-)

In any case isn't it nice we have all these options, can't wait for my Slicks, seems like the perfect evolution
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: pafoil on May 13, 2021, 09:59:04 PM
To all brands, please do a boom version NOW!
There is no preference discussion anymore.
Control, and wing feeling it's a lot better.
The weight issue, seems to be under control with these new slicks.
Installing a fake boom; it's just not the same, in terms of control and feeling the wing if you use the handles to attached the fake boom. I have not seen a decent fake boom with a solid direct connection to the struct that cannot be twist or rotate inside.

Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: PonoBill on May 13, 2021, 10:36:15 PM
PA, that just makes me think you haven't tried one other than perhaps the pathetic ones that attach in just one place on each handle. I do mine so that the handle attachment is at the front and back of each handle--The handle gets stretched tightly against the boom and the handle attachment becomes quite rigid. They don't twist, rotate or slide because the boom has a strip of self-adhesive velcro along the length. I have a Duotone 6 and 7M echo, and my fake boom for F-ones is easily as rigid as the Echo boom. This one has at least 100 days in the water. Probably more.

Oh, and I handled a Slick boom today. It was bare except for the boom wrap that duotone puts on it--a huge mistake in my view--an invitation to enjoy carpal tunnel syndrome and trigger finger. It felt about twice as heavy as my fake boom with four velcro straps, hockey tape in the middle for one-handing, and a hefty Duotone double adjustment harness line. Mine is about ten inches too long, but I haven't had a good reason to trim it up.

You can wait for manufacturers to build what you want, or you can spend a half-hour and make one of these. Your choice.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: pafoil on May 14, 2021, 07:07:55 AM
Hi Pono,
Your input is always appreciated. I tried a similar version a while ago on the slinging V2, and the improved feeling was not worthy the extra weight.
Perhaps is related to the soft handles included in the V2.
The connection with the wing in my echo's feels a million times better.
How are these slicks behaving in the waves?
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: PonoBill on May 14, 2021, 09:48:39 AM
I haven't tried the Slick in waves, but Dan Hall has one and he's been ripping up Ka'a with it. I'll ask how he likes it in the surf.

What on earth did you use that had detectable weight? Mine's a bit heavy because of the Duotone harness line, but my boom itself weighs 93 grams. I could get it down below 80g if I wasn't too lazy to trim it to the length I need.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: JonathanC on May 14, 2021, 01:22:46 PM
Hi Bill,
Would you be kind enough to post a couple more detail photos of your boom, particularly how you did the Velcro. Wondering what the stick on Velcro on the boom mates to.
Thanks
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: PonoBill on May 14, 2021, 01:41:45 PM
It's just a strip about an inch wide that runs the length of the attachment sections. I tape the ends down with hockey tape or shrinkwrap to keep them from lifting, but when the wraps are in place they hold the velcro down. I put the velcro on just to make it easier to position the double-sided velcro straps, but it turns out to be important to keep the boom from turning or wiggling around.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: GOTWAVZ on May 14, 2021, 02:14:05 PM
The Unit is an incredibly powerful wing. Newer generation wings hopefully have more power, better low and top end but you know from windsurfing and kiting that newer doesn't necessarily mean better. Plenty of next generation sails and kites have turned out to be dogs compared to the previous generation. R&D gone bad. Still waiting for a review comparing the Slick to the Echo and Unit. Hopefully the draft is moved a touch aft IMO. The unboxing videos of the Slick are a good look at this exciting wing though. Dwight- Hundred bucks says you will have a quiver of Slicks as soon as they come out and you will drop those heavy Ensis wings like a hot potato. Your poor wife's arms!! She must be pissed....jk. Everyone get ready for half price Ensis wings on The Zone.

Nope. The next generation Ensis wings ship to me May 15th. A full quiver.


The Unit is an incredibly powerful wing. Newer generation wings hopefully have more power, better low and top end but you know from windsurfing and kiting that newer doesn't necessarily mean better. Plenty of next generation sails and kites have turned out to be dogs compared to the previous generation. R&D gone bad. Still waiting for a review comparing the Slick to the Echo and Unit. Hopefully the draft is moved a touch aft IMO. The unboxing videos of the Slick are a good look at this exciting wing though. Dwight- Hundred bucks says you will have a quiver of Slicks as soon as they come out and you will drop those heavy Ensis wings like a hot potato. Your poor wife's arms!! She must be pissed....jk. Everyone get ready for half price Ensis wings on The Zone.

Nope. The next generation Ensis wings ship to me May 15th. A full quiver.

Sorry to Hyjack but is there any info on the next Gen Ensis wings? i have the 2021 and love them


Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 14, 2021, 03:51:04 PM

Sorry to Hyjack but is there any info on the next Gen Ensis wings? i have the 2021 and love them


Itís called the Score. Comes in 2.5, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.2, 6.2

This is a 1.8m prototype.

https://www.instagram.com/p/COvSTKcrU-u/?igshid=vd8jtx8k5hhz

https://www.instagram.com/p/COmuBlbrOFR/?igshid=1f4061479g91b
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: pafoil on May 15, 2021, 09:43:18 AM
I haven't tried the Slick in waves, but Dan Hall has one and he's been ripping up Ka'a with it. I'll ask how he likes it in the surf.

What on earth did you use that had detectable weight? Mine's a bit heavy because of the Duotone harness line, but my boom itself weighs 93 grams. I could get it down below 80g if I wasn't too lazy to trim it to the length I need.

I used a piece of paddle, vellcros and some tape to keep the straps in place. ;). (perhaps to much tape, is always my problem).
Perhaps you should make this your version commercial, Armstrong is selling a piece of carbon and 2 velcro for 100.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: PonoBill on May 15, 2021, 04:53:56 PM
Too much like work. Yeah, I've seen the Armstrong version--silly.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: FedorBOS on June 10, 2021, 07:48:04 AM
I can't stop running through my head the inescapable logic that for most types of winging booms will inevitably be the tech of choice. I'm a new wing foiler, so this has nothing to do with what feels better (though based on comments on the forum, lots of people are pro-boom), but just basic physics. Handles provide almost zero torsional control, and have lots of play for all other control inputs vs. a true (not strapped to handles) boom which is connected to two hard points on the wing having direct control in all directions.

It is like driving a boat with cable steering vs. hydraulic. Cables have a dead spot in the middle, resistance before they move, stretch, friction, etc. while hydraulic is almost 1:1 control input to slave response. The handle/boom comparison is very similar. Even in our own sport world the rigidity of hand holds matter - think about how revolutionary the boom clamp was for windsurfing.

The other big factor would logically be pumping efficiency. The in/out flex of handles probably eliminates (or mitigates the efficiency of) 2-4" of the pump cycle, and if the pump is in total maybe 16" (probably less) that is a huge % of potential lift lost.

I think many people on here agree and clearly favor a real boom... but if so why is it so few wing companies are offering true boomed wings? The new F-1 Strike CWC (below) which is built for rigidity would be a much more stable foil if the main strut (boom) followed the curvature of the wing rather than being connected with fabric (which further cuts pumping efficiency) and it would create and ideal spot for a boom. Not to mention pulling out that connector and removing the handles would probably largely offset the weight of a carbon boom. Are they all just lemmings following the rest of the industry? Do they all have boom versions in development? It is very confusing considering how early stage everything is that more lines have not followed this path.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: flkiter on June 10, 2021, 08:03:24 AM
The mini booms that cabrinha Mantis has have been the best handle set up I've used. Not perfect but on the right path. Packability, stiffness in riding, no crunching of the hands from long sessions and jumping. They could be stiffer, longer, and not have sliding in the sleeves they're in but for sure on the right path.

Maybe companies will offer D rings on their wings so users can pick where they want hands or booms. Add or take away stiffness and flex of connection.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Dwight (DW) on June 10, 2021, 08:09:54 AM
Are they all just lemmings following the rest of the industry?

Former hard core boomer here, who has softened his position.

Cons of ďtrueĒ boom:
1) Can be harsh in strong gusty wind. Hard, direct, violent feedback that can leave you with sore shoulders, wrist, and more.
2) Weight
3) Packing
4) Finger fatigue.
5) Sore front wrist

Pros of handles:
1) Soft compliance for multiple wrist angles. Twisting maneuvers, wing or board.
2) Smaller grip = less finger fatigue.
3) long handles provide similar hand placement freedom of boom.
4) lighter
5) smaller packing
6) gust absorption.

Itís less black and white. Handles getting better.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: FedorBOS on June 10, 2021, 09:07:11 AM
I'm not arguing that handles are worthless, only that there is a very strong case to be made for booms, yet of the major brands Duotone is the only one I see with a true boom wing. I guess the move to long handles by several brands is an effort for middle ground to appease both sides, but those loose some of the flexibility that you sight as an advantage.

Packability 100%, a boom is a pain to deal with and one more thing to buy/transport/break/forget at home.

Weight somewhat, though as we get into longer handles it seems like that might be a minimal delta. A carbon boom is .33kg, and a 4m wing is 2-3+, if we conservatively assume handle material, stitching, fill, connectors to support wing are only 100g then it is a ~10% weight change in the absolute worst case @4M. When you get into bigger wings, where weight matters more, it gets pretty minimal.   

All of the comfort and fatigue considerations (and gust handling) seem to be solvable with a harness, but I guess lots of people don't want to ride with a harness.

Again, not damning handles, but looking at that new Strike CWC I was just blown away by what seems like a major compromise to the potential efficiency of the wing in order to enable handle placement.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Wingingtanuki on June 10, 2021, 10:39:47 AM
Again, not damning handles, but looking at that new Strike CWC I was just blown away by what seems like a major compromise to the potential efficiency of the wing in order to enable handle placement.

IMHO, the strut doesn't follow the contour of the canopy in order to allow for de-power, not to allow for handle placement.

(In the same way a non-cambered WS sail is preferable for wave sailing vs a sail with cams)

As in windsurfing, I imagine in the future there will be "cambered" wings (similar to Cabrinha v2) once wing-foil racing becomes a thing.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Vancouver_foiler on June 10, 2021, 11:48:03 AM
The handles on the Takuma look very similar to those on the Ensis.

https://www.mackiteboarding.com/takuma-wing-ride-iii/

From what I hear, both companies have the same designer. They are certainly very similar wings, if not the same.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: FedorBOS on June 10, 2021, 12:46:42 PM
The depower consideration is logical. A loose luff would make for a forgiving flag out, though different maker seem to have different approaches to how much of the wing should be directly linked to the strut. It is early days yet, and there are sure to be plenty of flavors of wing for different applications, as we see in windsurfing and kiting.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Beasho on June 10, 2021, 01:42:23 PM
PONO conversion complete.

36" broken paddle shaft I found floating in the Pacific.  Champagne corked the end.  Bought some hockey tape vs. padding the entire boom.

I will try this out on my 6.4M Slingshot V2 wing. 

Note:  I have a 5.0 Duotone Echo.  My transitions in jibing are flawless, and better when tacking, with the boom where I stumble and search with the handles on the Slingshot.  No comparison for transitions.  The boom is massively superior.  This from someone with 40 sessions.

I have gone out with the Duotone, boom, and flown for 1+ hour without falling in.  No way with the handles.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: PonoBill on June 10, 2021, 07:06:04 PM
I keep going out without my fake boom just to see if I'm missing something. I tried my new 6M Strike since the handles look so good. YUCK!

The handles weren't bad, I could grab them easily and they aren't floppy, but for transitions, tacks especially, bah. I came in and got my fake boom after 30 minutes of unsatisfying sailing. Obviously, I'm not sticking with it long enough to get used to it, but I don't see the point. The fake boom is more packable than a pump. I made a special one today for my new 6M since it needs a bit more length. 84 grams (less than three ounces) without the harness lines.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Beasho on June 11, 2021, 01:48:10 PM
Flew with the boom today.  It worked GREAT!

12 to 20 riding the M280 foil and this 6.4M Slingshot V2.  Transitions were FANTASTIC.

Easy Riding.  Swing over head and Jibe away.  Really really nice.

I was only out for 30 minutes but had this nice 5+ minute flight goofy foot.  The stress level is WAY lower when jibing.  You can focus on your feet and the hands just go into automatic mode with the boom.  Quick flip overhead.  Wind SE in Green.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: PonoBill on June 11, 2021, 08:57:13 PM
If you make that a little longer so it covers all the handles, and double up on the straps for the front and rear handle so the handle is stretched tightly against the boom, it will be quite a bit stiffer and work even better. Glad to hear you like it. This is a strange phenomenon. Everyone who actually tries one loves it. People who haven't tried one seem to think it won't be useful. You don't really need to cork the shaft or keep the handle. As an open tube with just reversed tape to cover the edges it drains instantly. I used a handle for a while but found it got in the way.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Beasho on June 12, 2021, 09:43:28 AM
I left the handle on to preserve length. 

I love when people bash on an idea or piece of hardware they have never tried.  Especially when the supporters have tried both ways as in ďIíve used handles and Iíve used booms.  Booms are better.  One handed flight.  Infinite variability.  Easy harness attachments that donít flopÖĒ

Next question is the best way to secure to the handles.  Iím using the the remnants of harness line attachments but there is probably a simpler mechanism. 
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: PonoBill on June 12, 2021, 10:16:31 PM
Next question is the best way to secure to the handles.  Iím using the the remnants of harness line attachments but there is probably a simpler mechanism.

I use velcro straps made from  2" hook and loop sewn back to back. If you run a strip of 1" self-adhesive velcro along the boom it makes it much easier to attach the straps and ensures the boom won't rotate. I use 4 straps, two for the front and back of the frontmost handle, and two for the rear handle, stretching the handle tight against the boom. If you have more handles in between you can add straps just to keep them open or just ignore them. either way works.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Dwight (DW) on June 13, 2021, 06:52:38 PM
Now this is looking better. A Duotone prototype with Cabrinha like handles. Hell Yeah.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CQBkJ3LAmny/?utm_medium=copy_link
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: PonoBill on June 13, 2021, 09:24:51 PM
Now this is looking better. A Duotone prototype with Cabrinha like handles. Hell Yeah.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CQBkJ3LAmny/?utm_medium=copy_link

That's Alan Cadiz doing the riding. I'd call those Maui Hot Sails style handles since Jef Henderson did them first, but yeah. Cute.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Wingingtanuki on June 14, 2021, 08:31:53 AM
Now this is looking better. A Duotone prototype with Cabrinha like handles. Hell Yeah.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CQBkJ3LAmny/?utm_medium=copy_link

That's Alan Cadiz doing the riding. I'd call those Maui Hot Sails style handles since Jef Henderson did them first, but yeah. Cute.

The most interesting aspect of that video is how much quicker Alan is than anyone else.  I think he may have left a windsurfer or two behind.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: PonoBill on June 15, 2021, 07:10:50 AM
Now this is looking better. A Duotone prototype with Cabrinha like handles. Hell Yeah.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CQBkJ3LAmny/?utm_medium=copy_link

That's Alan Cadiz doing the riding. I'd call those Maui Hot Sails style handles since Jef Henderson did them first, but yeah. Cute.

The most interesting aspect of that video is how much quicker Alan is than anyone else.  I think he may have left a windsurfer or two behind.

Alan is ridiculously skilled and would be fast on almost anything, but I think his technique would work for anyone. I've been doing the deep knee bend (my version, which probably looks like straight legs to outside observers) upwind thing for a few weeks now, and it results in a much higher speed. I have no idea and not even a half-ass theory about why that is so. Yesterday we had completely goofy conditions in Hood River, I went out with my 6.0 F-one and 1150 foil wing. I generally consider the 1150 to be sort of slow, but with my knees bent as much as I can manage and heeled way over I was hauling ass upwind. I'm fairly certain a good part of my foil wing was waving in the air--the foil sounded like a vacuum cleaner sucking up water.

Downwind was a different story. The 3-strut F-one has a stupid amount of torque, and I was overpowered in the gusts. The swells were big too. So I was on my tiptoes, sideslipping down the swell faces with the wing trying to lift me off the board. I think I found the practical limit for the 6M for myself. I had a couple of high altitude face plants that were not all that much fun.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: deja vu on June 18, 2021, 07:51:46 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hfxf2XfWvyI
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: deja vu on June 19, 2021, 05:58:44 PM
The issue I have with attaching a "boom" to the handles is that you still have side to side flex (and some forward and back flex) through the handles because they have some "give". You can try and minimize this but you can't completely eliminate it -- it's the nature of the beast.  Booms that form part of the wing, since they are "locked-in" to the strut (Echo, Slick, etc.), have a solid feel and if you move the boom forwards or back or twist the boom up or down with your hands the response or feedback from the wing is immediate, direct and firm -- there is no "extra" or additional twist or movement or delay as there is through relatively soft handles. This makes the wing much more responsive to rider input (in my opinion).
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Hilly on June 19, 2021, 09:01:49 PM
One is not better than the other, it is what suits you. Wing ding is a new discipline which I hope does not go down the path of windsurfing and get specialised to a point it priced itself out of the market with you needing so much kit a van was full, then all the gear was out of date next season. I love the fact I can fit my wing in one bag with the pump and that is all I need, or a paddle if the wind drops off. Handles work well for me, no need for extra stuff. Keep it simple s....  ;D
He who is having the most fun wins. ;)
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: FedorBOS on August 29, 2021, 09:11:00 AM
Bringing this one back. To each their own, but for anyone who has not tried a wing with a 'real' boom I strongly encourage you to do so.

I finally got the 6M Slick I ordered in May, and took it out yesterday, and it is a brave new world of control and power. The wind was a bit too light and gusty, but with the boom I could absolutely hammer pumps whenever a puff came along to get up on foil. When it was supper light and I was just slogging, I used one hand in the middle of the boom and saved energy while I waited for the next puff. While the aluminum boom is a bit heavy (carbon still not available) the benefits, at least for light wind riding, are 100% worth it.

If you are usually riding in 20+ knots so there is always adequate pressure on the wing, maybe it is less important, but I'm a convert. I went in with high expectations (usually a recipe for disappointment) and the experience actually exceeded my highest hopes for how a boomed wing would perform. If they were actually available, and the next model year was not so close, I would buy a full quiver of Slicks today.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: PonoBill on August 29, 2021, 10:42:13 AM
Bringing this one back. To each their own, but for anyone who has not tried a wing with a 'real' boom I strongly encourage you to do so.

I finally got the 6M Slick I ordered in May, and took it out yesterday, and it is a brave new world of control and power. The wind was a bit too light and gusty, but with the boom I could absolutely hammer pumps whenever a puff came along to get up on foil. When it was supper light and I was just slogging, I used one hand in the middle of the boom and saved energy while I waited for the next puff. While the aluminum boom is a bit heavy (carbon still not available) the benefits, at least for light wind riding, are 100% worth it.

If you are usually riding in 20+ knots so there is always adequate pressure on the wing, maybe it is less important, but I'm a convert. I went in with high expectations (usually a recipe for disappointment) and the experience actually exceeded my highest hopes for how a boomed wing would perform. If they were actually available, and the next model year was not so close, I would buy a full quiver of Slicks today.

Making a carbon boom out of the aluminum one is literally five minutes work. I've done several for TJ at Big Winds using the Black Project silver-colored paddle shaft, and they're gorgeous. But I could make one out of almost any shaft, though the extreme taper Quickblade versions on their newest paddles might be a challenge.

I don't find side-to-side flex to be an issue with fake booms the way I make them, with two velcro straps for each of the furthest front and furthest back handles, even for the new F-one Strike, which has longer and more floppy handles than the Swing. The two straps stretch the handle out and reduce the effect of increasing distance from the strut that grabbing the handle in the middle or using a single attachment causes. That's one reason why I find the short bridging "boom" offered by some wing manufacturers so pointless. They allow more options for hand placement during transitions, but they don't make the handles less floppy--they flop even more.

Even a locked-in boom, like those on any Duotone other than the echo, has side-to-side movement. I inflated my 7M Duotone echo and my 6M Slick with the fake boom to see how much difference there is. The answer is--not much. If I pull the boom side to side close to the leading edge on the echo, it is substantially stiffer than the Slick, but even at the midpoint there's hardly a difference at all, and further back the fake boom actually looks stiffer. That makes sense, the fake boom is anchored to the strut, the duotone is just connected to the canopy.  If I wasn't so lazy I'd do it again and shoot video, but you can wiggle stuff for yourself.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Caribsurf on August 29, 2021, 03:03:00 PM
Bringing this one back. To each their own, but for anyone who has not tried a wing with a 'real' boom I strongly encourage you to do so.

I finally got the 6M Slick I ordered in May, and took it out yesterday, and it is a brave new world of control and power. The wind was a bit too light and gusty, but with the boom I could absolutely hammer pumps whenever a puff came along to get up on foil. When it was supper light and I was just slogging, I used one hand in the middle of the boom and saved energy while I waited for the next puff. While the aluminum boom is a bit heavy (carbon still not available) the benefits, at least for light wind riding, are 100% worth it.

If you are usually riding in 20+ knots so there is always adequate pressure on the wing, maybe it is less important, but I'm a convert. I went in with high expectations (usually a recipe for disappointment) and the experience actually exceeded my highest hopes for how a boomed wing would perform. If they were actually available, and the next model year was not so close, I would buy a full quiver of Slicks today.


Making a carbon boom out of the aluminum one is literally five minutes work. I've done several for TJ at Big Winds using the Black Project silver-colored paddle shaft, and they're gorgeous. But I could make one out of almost any shaft, though the extreme taper Quickblade versions on their newest paddles might be a challenge.

I don't find side-to-side flex to be an issue with fake booms the way I make them, with two velcro straps for each of the furthest front and furthest back handles, even for the new F-one Strike, which has longer and more floppy handles than the Swing. The two straps stretch the handle out and reduce the effect of increasing distance from the strut that grabbing the handle in the middle or using a single attachment causes. That's one reason why I find the short bridging "boom" offered by some wing manufacturers so pointless. They allow more options for hand placement during transitions, but they don't make the handles less floppy--they flop even more.

Even a locked-in boom, like those on any Duotone other than the echo, has side-to-side movement. I inflated my 7M Duotone echo and my 6M Slick with the fake boom to see how much difference there is. The answer is--not much. If I pull the boom side to side close to the leading edge on the echo, it is substantially stiffer than the Slick, but even at the midpoint there's hardly a difference at all, and further back the fake boom actually looks stiffer. That makes sense, the fake boom is anchored to the strut, the duotone is just connected to the canopy.  If I wasn't so lazy I'd do it again and shoot video, but you can wiggle stuff for yourself.

I totally agree with you on pumping and wing response with the boom. The Duotone with boom feels much more responsive with a solid feel and quick reaction, while my non boom wings feel a little bouncy and are slower to capture the wind when pumping....
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: SurfIC on August 30, 2021, 01:33:28 AM
I think wings are a very personal choice. Since starting I've owned Slingwing v2, Fone v1, Takoon, Gong and Slick. I've also tested Fone Strike, Rrd, Echo and a few others. Theres no doubt the Slick is a great wing but I'm going back to handles. In light wind it drops easily when managing the board and wing when climbing on the board. The extra boom weight (non carbon) is significant. I find it a bit unruly when taking it for a walk or holding it in neutral and the boom takes up alot of space out of the water. Truly great for transitions though.

If people get the opportunity to test its well worth it. When the Strike came out I was convinced by marketing, reviews and the local shop riding them that this was my next wing. I tried it and really disliked it. I have settled on my wing choice knowing my criteria - lightweight, small wingspan, no windows, small pack up, minimal fuss wing.
 :)
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: Dontsink on August 30, 2021, 02:55:55 AM
I have two carbon tubes ready to try as booms.But the Takoon wings i am using right now are so lightweight and nice to maneuver with that i am not motivated to experiment at all.
I am used to the handles anyway,adding any weight is a big turnoff right now.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: FedorBOS on August 30, 2021, 05:52:32 AM


Making a carbon boom out of the aluminum one is literally five minutes work. I've done several for TJ at Big Winds using the Black Project silver-colored paddle shaft, and they're gorgeous. But I could make one out of almost any shaft, though the extreme taper Quickblade versions on their newest paddles might be a challenge.
[/quote]

I have an old carbon SUP paddle I plan to convert. The Slick boom is oblong, and the paddle shaft is round, so not sure the ends will pop on, but I expect I could trim and shove a bit and make it work. I may just shape them out of foam and carbon glass them as another poster did. Takes a little longer, but then I still have my original boom if all goes south.

I'm sure a well built bolt on boom has the same outcome - I simply meant that duct taping a broom stick to the handles was not the same thing. I also expect the boom attachment methodology will evolve / improve quickly - the Slick system is meh at present, but serviceable.

It will remain a matter of taste, and I'm still very much a noob so even I take my opinion with a grain of salt. That said, the difference in low wind control and pumping efficiency between my Ozon Wasp and the Slick was night and day. When slogging the Wasp required active management to make sure no tip dips etc., the Slick was incredibly easy. I'm sure if I were better at this sport the difference would be negligible, but I'm always looking for ways to substitute technology for skill, so definitely a game changer as of now.

Now I'm going to go wiggle stuff for myself.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: deja vu on September 09, 2021, 10:39:12 AM
This wing will also be available with a carbon boom in a few months -- something I'm interested in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_fWL4mzxDE
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: PonoBill on September 09, 2021, 05:03:45 PM
I have an old carbon SUP paddle I plan to convert. The Slick boom is oblong, and the paddle shaft is round, so not sure the ends will pop on, but I expect I could trim and shove a bit and make it work. I may just shape them out of foam and carbon glass them as another poster did. Takes a little longer, but then I still have my original boom if all goes south.

Yes, but the conversion to round carbon is easy. When you take the ends off you'll see the ends are fairly thin. They are under compression so you don't need a lot of strength. I slit the front plastic ferrule, and I think I just forced the much smaller back one into place. Then just drill holes and rivet. It's reasonably obvious.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: deja vu on September 11, 2021, 07:28:31 AM
Duotone has a new light wing for 2022 to compete with the Ocean Rodeo.  It has two solid handles that bolt onto the wing (the standard Unit will also have the two solid handles).  Take a look at the 5:52 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCYgWPR6sB8&t=5s
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: PonoBill on September 11, 2021, 10:46:33 AM
That Duotone Alula wing was in the water pretty much any time there was wind at the AWSI show.
Title: Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
Post by: radair on September 15, 2021, 02:46:13 PM
Duotone has a new light wing for 2022 to compete with the Ocean Rodeo.  It has two solid handles that bolt onto the wing (the standard Unit will also have the two solid handles).  Take a look at the 5:52 mark...
Check the 3:30 mark for another look. Those are good looking handles (if the diameter is right)!
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