Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Sam the Surfer on March 07, 2021, 09:45:44 PM
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I’ve wing foiled about 15-20 times. I am pretty proficient heelside (strong) using an Ozone 6 or Gong 9. Flew low aspect wings (Gong XXL rise and Kings 36”) and went to the MFC 1600 on a 25” mast. Again, heel side (strong can fly).
My weak side can only sail and gain upwind advantage. When I gain flight weak side I end up getting the wing dipping forward and I fall into it. Haven’t really tried toe side all that much but get ruined and go downwind.
Any tips before I put the gear up for sale?
Ben (Darthfern)
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Check out Alan Cadiz Patreon page. He has a full tutorial vid on riding toeside.
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A good tool to get coordination basics when riding on your bad side is a skateboard.
On flat or very mellow gradient and with helmet & pads.Nothing fancy, just roll straight and very shallow turns.
At first it feels totally sketchy but after a few days it will begin to click in.
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I'm guessing you don't have any windsurf or kiteboarding experience but are a long time surfer.
If that's the case, and you surf equally well back and front side, I would think riding toe-side will be easier than riding heel-side on your weak side, but eventually you want to be able to switch your stance - so you're probably better off sticking it out through that learning stage. Eventually, that toe side advantage will probably help with your jibes.
Biggest thing to make things easier: Once you are able to go and return to the same spot, try to go out on days with plenty of wind using your smaller wing. Those big wings are harder to learn to foil on because it is too easy to dip a tip. (My biggest wing is a 5m - don't like big wings - there is a point of diminishing returns).
Other things to try - move mast forward, try a larger foil, change the width of your stance. Change only one thing at a time so if there is an improvement or setback you know specifically what caused it.
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Also possible that instead of a problem with riding switch, its the backward hands that are giving you trouble. When riding normally, your front arm often stays extended and your rear arm flexes to feather/control. When you switch side, you may be reverting to instinct. Your new rear arm (which was you front arm on your strong side) is staying extended, and you new front arm is flexing. That's a sure bet for a nose diving wing.
Just saw a video recently with good advice or a nose diving wing. As soon as you feel the wing turning down, punch the water with your back hand. It will shoot the wing up and keep it out of the water. Tried it this weekend and its a great cue.
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A trick I use for my students to learn switch, start with your feet in more of a sup stance next to each other. When you pull the wing to your chest, pump your feet together. As you start to lift off the water, just bring your foot that will be the leading foot only 6 inches forward. So your heal of the leading foot will be about across from the toes of the rear foot. You can ride up wind like this, I find when people learn that they try to get into a surf stance and it hinders their balance.
Eventually you'll find a sport on the board where it's comfortable to ride with your feet next to each other and this will become the location to stand at when switching feet.
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Thank you!! I have hope!! A skateboard is on its way. I’m looking at posted video links.
flkiter- how far in front of the mast should I position my feet in the SUP stance? Mid-board? Back?
Oak fish- good point! Down to get the wingtip up.
I can sail and flail up wind on the weakside. Spend 90% of my time doing that and then racing back strong.
Do I commit to weakside or learn toe side?
Thanks!
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You'll be over or in front of the mast depending on the wind and foil. You'll feel it out. Trying to start toe side can also get you on foil easily since it'll get you to go more down wind which builds up speed and you'll foil. You have to go down wind to get to speed onto foil. If you try to go up wind too soon then you never get enough speed to get onto foil. Keep at it, it's worth the struggle. Also try the second handle on the strut for more power.
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Before we keep helping him here let’s see what kind of gear might be up for sale and how good the deals will be. 😀
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Yesterday they would have been amazing deals!! Lol
So maybe my angle is too up wind to get enough speed or power to fly? I gain ground upwind but that is it. When I do try and get on foil I usually end up getting the tip catching and I fall into it. So now should push my left arm down to get the wing tip up.
Curious about the sup stance... I usually put my right foot towards the rail (goofy is weak side for me). If I went more staggered and 6” apart with the right foot forward?
I haven’t really tried toe side yet because I’ve heard to commit to the weak side and be able to gain ground and avoid the walk of shame.
No videos really show how to pump up toe side?
My commitment to the weak side is tough. I spend almost all my time sailing and not flying weak side only to turn the other way and fly. I have no wind experience obviously!!
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If you're up and going, then try a jibe and ride out toe side. Ride toe side till you fall, then switch feet and work on your weak side. If you want to ride waves you'll need to figure out toe side. I did almost 30 miles in overhead waves yesterday and I still haven't figured out weak side. I'll save that for the summer when its flat.
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Do I commit to weakside or learn toe side?
Thanks!
At some point, everyone must learn weak side winging. It will be less of a mental hurdle/brain block/ to overcome, if you learn NOW and not wimp out and wait until later.
We just had a prone foiler visit the area for 3 weeks to get better winging. He was from Maine. The first few days he struggled to get away from the beach and upwind (on shore wind). His struggles came from not being able to ride toe side. He refused to try weak side because he was a “surfer”. This is not the first time we’ve heard this from “surfers”. The crew on the beach, gave him enough shit about not learning weak side, that he gave in and tried. He’s now riding weak side and happy we gave him shit about it. It also helps when a woman (Jacky) gives you shit too.
On his last days here, he was out riding and doing well in this on shore wind.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CMI5-RYDXZO/?igshid=ov8wsgzz7mlo
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With all these Youtube and Instagram vids Wingfoiling is getting this kind of super easy image, which is a bit misleading.
It is easier than other wind sports,but you still have to go through the hoops.
Many people that pick it up real quick have lots of previous experience kitefoiling,windfoiling,surf or supfoiling.
Some are in the biz as pros,shapers,retailers etc.. and get into the water very frequently,some have dreamy conditions regularly,some get the latest and best gear...or any combination.
It all adds up to this kind of pressure that everybody should be ripping in no time with a Wingfoil,and it is not realistic.
Wave wingfoiling is another bit of a white lie, unless you have a mellow sandbar or reef break it is really difficult to get out/in.
Standard beachbreaks and even an onshore wind with shorebreak are brutal on gear and can be really dangerous in ridiculous wave sizes.
So give it time,enjoy the little breakthroughs,do not compare to others too much.
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I haven’t really tried toe side yet because I’ve heard to commit to the weak side and be able to gain ground and avoid the walk of shame.
No videos really show how to pump up toe side?
My commitment to the weak side is tough. I spend almost all my time sailing and not flying weak side only to turn the other way and fly. I have no wind experience obviously!!
IMHO toe side riding is the #1 most important thing to learn, if your goal is to ride waves and swell. As that's the key to carving. Luckily it's fairly easy to learn -- just point straight downwind at decent speed...you'll find you're just standing there quietly and calmly enjoying the scenery. Then just turn the other way slightly. Then grab the wing and engage it a little. There, you're riding toeside! :-) You can then work on getting the turn tighter, getting a fluid hand switch, getting as efficient a wing angle as possible to at least hold ground (I find going upwind toeside is super challenging and not worth trying for long....toeside is a temporary riding condition for me only).
Pumping up toeside...difficult and not worth the effort, better to invest the time to learn wrong foot forward. The only time for me that a toeside water start would be worthwhile is in punching through swells in a beach break, so I can "chicken gybe" with my dominant foot forward (turn in front of a closing out swell, to avoid getting smooshed).
Agree with tips above on learning to ride with your non-dominant foot forward. Just takes time on water, dedication, pushing through the frustration....maximum humility! It'll come. I find that my wrong-foot stance is halfway to normal surfer stance, as posts above say, it is easier to be partially offset. Those reaches are only about 90% as efficient upwind as my dominant stance. And toeside is probably 60% as efficient. Try pointing downwind a little more than you would normally going the other way ... more wind power. If you point too far upwind without enough power, it falls apart (there's a sailing term for that), could be part of the problem?
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I remember learning to surf backside felt wierd but eventually clicked and same with toe side on the windding.
As far as catching the wing tips I posted a short video on the cause and how recover here:
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,36594.0.html
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Great advice and tips!! I am on a Bongo board now and using a weak stance (goofy) facing forward, got a small skateboard from a friend to go goofy. I will use the punch down with my left arm if the tip starts to catch. Also, go down wind a little more on my weak side initially to try and pump off the water (my angle is too high into the wind to create enough speed). My wing technique could be another variable to this.
As far as weak side or goofy offset stance, should they be at the rails and where in relation to the foil box?
I’m beginning to see that with no wind experience that weakside might be tougher than I anticipated (can fly strong). The encouragement and information helps me break down the next steps. I competed on the sit down hydrofoil and currently have the record for biggest air at 64 frames. I learned to do full twisting flips, front flips, combos, and mobes regular and switch. That said, weak side has been very humbling!!
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Great post don'tsink, and brave. Anyone that doesn't think wingfoiling is stupid hard has my respect unless they're a fucking liar. It totally kicks my ass and kicked the asses of some of the best all-around water sports people I know. That's the best thing about it in my opinion. It's stupidly hard and crazy fun, and you have to work at it as often as you can to be even OK at it. Some people are great right away--guess what. They were already great at things that were closely related. the first time I saw Chris Anderson casually doing amazing wing foiling I thought jeez, I suck at this, look what he can do. But he's been amazing doing insane shit in high wind for more than 30 years.
Today I dove into my 6M f-one wing at max speed and ex-fucking-sploded it. I actually thought someone had fired a gun. BOOM! I got to paddle in from the middle of Sail Bay with the corpse of my wing wadded up under my knees. I've been doing this for two years and I still do silly shit like that. It's hard, but it's SO much fun.
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This thread is solid and I agree with it all.
Winging is easy, to go straight, on your good side. But to put all the parts together takes time and patience. It’s also physically demanding. We had an amazing kiteboarder (and formerly near Olympian) go out for his 4th day and declare it physically demanding. Made me feel better. Your first weeks winging are hard as hell. But it is silly fun and I’m addicted.
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I have always said "Give it 10 sessions before you complain about anything."
Imagine a kid coming to you after 3 attempts at surfing and complaining about not being able to turn. Kids don't do that. They go back and back and back and back . . .
I have 35 years of windsurfing experience, 20 of surfing, 12 of SUP and 4 years SURF foiling in the heaviest sh-t anyone is going out in.
I am 30 sessions in.
The wind in Half Moon Bay, CA is terrible. The harbor has buildings that break it up but everyone shows up when its blowing 12 mph. Its cold, the water is gross but I drag myself to the Harbor and get on the Wing-Ding gear like taking my medicine. Just get another session. Sometimes I am not even happy about it.
I am giving myself 50 sessions to be able to jibe without coming off the foil.
How long did it take to do a planing Windsurf jibe? 5 years minimum to be really clean and come out with speed.
PS: The other day there was a dad with a GoPro sitting on a SUP filming his kid (named Kai Murrell) jumping 10 feet in the air. I came by and tried to get in the movie. I jumped and maybe got the foil 6 inches out of the water crashed down and bent my ankle. I won't be trying that again soon.
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I think experience with windsurf transitions may actually work against you at first when you ty jibing on the foil. On a windsurfer maintaining speed with chop, etc means that everything has to go pretty quickly. That is much less of an issue on the foil. It can be a leisurely affair (on the right gear).
It is great practice to turn to downwind, after you start the turn let go of the back handle, put that newly released hand on the leading edge handle and then let go with the front hand. Don't pump the board. Just hang out and make little adjustments to trim it and see how long you stay up before crash-down. It is surprisingly long! Do that a few times (never going further than just past downwind) with no intention of completion. Then try the same thing but when you get to facing downwind on the handle switch your front hands on the leading edge handle. Hold that position trimming until you drop. Then, finally, from that new hand on the leading edge cross your hands over to the other side and give a little wing pump (still just past downwind). Run that out until you touch down, still just going a little past downwind. Get a feel for that and you are on your way to riding toeside.
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Ok, working on the Bongo board weak side (goofy for me). Things I’ve learned from this thread to work on:
1) Don’t give up on the weak side and it will take time. Incremental steps. (Walked me off the ledge)
2) punch down with my left arm if the tips goes down and keep my right arm up
3) my angle of attack is to strong weak side and need to drift a little down wind to get power and fly
4) continue to try over 10 sessions and then make adjustments
5) try toe side going downwind. It is easier but also less efficient
6) Pono- made me laugh and appreciate the story of the exploded wing
7) enjoy the pain stakingly slow process that is the ‘weak side’
8) zero wind experience and a lot of foil experience (sit down) can dilute what one thinks is possible 😁
I hope to go weak side behind the boat if we can get it in the water (ice and or low lake level). Maybe even a wing attempt on Sunday...
Keep the comments coming. All of this is critical to learn!! Incremental steps and encouragement!!
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What is your weight, Sam?
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I am 6’ 1” (used to be 6’2” 😁) and 185 lb. wetsuit and such in cold water closer to 195-200 lb.
I ordered an Axis 1150 with 460 rear, 75 cm mast and standard fuse. Am on MFC 1600 and Kings 36” wing set ups.
I river foil surf, wake surf, wing, and go to ocean when I can
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I have never used the 1150 but 1600 might be a bit hard at first. The Axis 1020 made learning so much easier for me. Extra lift and sustain at slow speeds is super helpful for a new foiler. Gear can be the difference between smooth progress and constant struggle.
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Great point on gear. I didn’t see the 1020 on the website. I did see a 1120...
The 1150 looks like it is 3 weeks out.
If the wind picks up will try winging again with all these tips and encouragement am looking forward to it. Might put the boat in 38 degree water and go weak side.
Appreciate the support and laughs!
Ben
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Got out behind the boat and was able to fly weak side (goofy for me)!! Wasn’t able to drop the handle and pump and was able to feel a lot of control when I cut out and had line tension in the rope. This should help translate to the wing... I hope!!
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The 1150 is easy money. 1020 is even easier but wont glide. As long as you have a little power it will lift you but when the power stops it comes down. I can’t pump for shit but I pumped my 1150 for a good 200 yards a few days ago.
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Break through day!! We did a down winger which made all the difference in the world. I could fall and. It worry about the walk of shame. About 1/2 through the run I started to fly weak side and by the end learned how to more efficiently pump up on the weak side. I am not even close to turning... yet.
Thank you for this thread and the tips. Flying both ways makes a big difference. I ordered a 75 cm mast with the Axis 1150 and 460 rear. My current mast is 25” and I breached and bailed a lot!!
Who knew what a difference a down winger makes!!
Ben
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Well done! These threads help a lot of folks. I think we all think of tossing it in sometimes. Seeing the breakthroughs helps keep at it.
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That 1150 set up will be a game changer for you. Soon you get the jibes and even tacks.
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Looking forward to the 1150/460 and 75 cm mast! I got the order in before the 3-4 month delay. Hopefully will be here soon!
I haven’t even really considered turning because I wanted the weak side so bad. It’s not perfect but learned how to pump out of the water weak side.
I’m 6’1” and 185 lbs using the 5’3” 110L Gong HIPE and liking it!!
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Update on my poor 6M F-one that I dove through. I took it to airtime, they looked it over, and pointed out a minor problem that I somehow hadn't noticed--the leading edge was busted almost completely in half--just about an inch of it left intact. Like someone took a hot dog and snapped it in half. Not worth fixing.
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Bummer on the wing!!
Did another down winger today and made my first jibe a flew toe side (twisted). The weak side still needs lots of work but can fly both directions now!! So fun!!
The down wingers are key for lots of attempts for newbies.
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Update on my poor 6M F-one that I dove through. I took it to airtime, they looked it over, and pointed out a minor problem that I somehow hadn't noticed--the leading edge was busted almost completely in half--just about an inch of it left intact. Like someone took a hot dog and snapped it in half. Not worth fixing.
That is weird I ripped my Wasp in half and got it fixed good as new. Can't really see it in the pic but the tear went up the canopy for 30cm as well.
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Oh, they can fix it, but it's a year and a half old, and the bill would be $400+. I have a full quiver of F-one Strikes already paid for, so if I sold the hobo fleet I'd have to find someone that wants to pay 400+ for a repaired and somewhat thrashed wing. If I was desperate for a 6M I'd have it fixed, but as it is, nah. If I were sticking around Hood Rver for the next two months it might make some sense, except this is today (oops, the top line is 40mph) and a 6M isn't exactly the call for springtime in the Hood. Just about the time you get to the other side of the river the wind graph goes vert:
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Loved this thread.
I think this sport really rewards you if you put the time in. What I mean is you can put hours into prone Surfing, Golf, Tennis etc and still look like a complete novice. Not so with winging. Time on the foil makes everything progressively easier. I've loved every little break through and havnt been frustrated when I've not cracked something. Winging has got me in the water with a smile on my face in the middle of a super cold winter with 25+ knots of freezing NE Wind in the UK. :D
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Yes!! The key for me was to be patient (learned a lot from this thread) and to commit to the weakside. Now I’m flying weak side and going both directions. A smile on my face for sure!!
Thinking about buying some weight lifting gloves with a hook or water ski gloves called Clinchers. My arm pump was worse than when I raced motocross. Thoughts on those?
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Break through day today!! First park and play with no walk of shame. Lighter winds called for the 9 m Gong wing, 5’3” HIPE and Axis 1150/460. Weak side is getting better and can get out of the water and fly. Now if I could just get those pesky turns down...
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I am not sure how much wind this was... not a lot. Glad to have the 9 m Gong today!!
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Looks pretty heavy, I mean it’s blown the water vertical right?
Glad you’re getting it man. I had a good session today too. What a sport.
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Break through day today!! First park and play with no walk of shame. Lighter winds called for the 9 m Gong wing, 5’3” HIPE and Axis 1150/460. Weak side is getting better and can get out of the water and fly. Now if I could just get those pesky turns down...
Rad! Glad you didn't sell the gear, feels so good when you get it -- the frustrations in the learning stage is made up for by the repeated BDEs. (Best Days Ever)
Turning....my advice is to just turn from your dominant foot to toeside to start. Point downwind and just float along with minimal wind in the wing. After a while you realize "this is easy, how about I try bearing off a little the other way" (without switching feet). There, now you've turned. Then engage the wing a little while riding toeside (the front of your body facing the wind) -- it will feel awkward, you have to twist, and you can really only get half the wind power, but enough to stay up on foil, going partially downwind. Then turn back to heelside. Now you've done an S-turn -- the base move for wave riding. So do that 1,000 more times until it's fluid and you're ready for the surf. :-)
For me and others who did kitesurf first, the most common gybes are heelside to toeside, then a foot switch after the turn, or riding heelside and then before the turn footswitch to toeside, then turn and come out heelside. I've never mastered the flying footswitch during the turn, in kitefoiling or wingfoiling -- and as cool as it would be to figure out, you can get away with out.
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That makes sense for the progression to turn. Thanks!
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Tried the above technique to turn downwind and made a turn and rode toeside for a while! Even tried a jump and also hit a submerged island. So fun!
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I am not sure how much wind this was... not a lot. Glad to have the 9 m Gong today!!
Cool post
Is the Gong 9m easy to manage ?
Waiting for other vendors to come out with bigger wings for light summer breezes.