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The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: deja vu on March 03, 2021, 02:24:29 PM

Title: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: deja vu on March 03, 2021, 02:24:29 PM
O.K. there has been a lot of hype over this wing due to the strength and lightness of the material.  Two different wings on offer at two different prices.

https://www.mackiteboarding.com/ocean-rodeo-glide-hybrid-wing/

https://www.mackiteboarding.com/ocean-rodeo-glide-aluula-a-series-wing/
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: juandesooka on March 03, 2021, 03:17:37 PM
Thanks for that. All the sites list pre order but don't give prices.  That's helpful.

The pricing is as anticipated ... the Aluula kites were about double regular prices.  And the partial Aluula is maybe a third higher.  Seems about the same.

Sure will be interesting to see these in the wild.  I suspect the lightness will be a big impact on low end potential for the big wings.  Less noticable at the high end.  But what I wonder is if that lightness may translate to a noticeably lower range for each kite size.  EG if I need 18kt to be fun on my wasp 4m, would easier pumping lower that to 16kt for an Aluula?  Looking forward to finding out.

Btw, the table on this page may be helpful to differentiate features between the series:
https://oceanrodeo.ca/pages/wingsurfing
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: Dwight (DW) on March 03, 2021, 04:22:25 PM
One concern is the canopy is the same as all other brands.

So the canopy is going to blow out and lose draft stability and upwind performance, like any other brand. Thatís less than 6 months for a frequent user.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: APPST_Paddle on March 03, 2021, 05:34:44 PM
So just a quick note - I'm am ambassador for Ocean Rodeo, I haven't gotten into winging yet, but I have the Aluula kite, and it is hands down significantly better in every way (except cost). The biggest thing is how rigid and smooth everything is, better upwind, etc.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: Hdip on March 03, 2021, 07:11:39 PM
Isn't the foil going to go through the fabric the same as any other fabric? :) As much as I want to do it, it just seems like such disposable equipment. Worse than single 4 oz team glassed shortboards.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: surfcowboy on March 03, 2021, 07:27:46 PM
Isn't the foil going to go through the fabric the same as any other fabric? :)

The surf guys weigh in.  ;D

Itís the same as Boardshorts. We buy them because John John wears them... and then use them in the pool or on a lake.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: flkiter on March 03, 2021, 07:38:25 PM
Going to have to be one hell of an amazing wing for those prices. As for wings in the surf, I'm so used to having to get my wings repaired that when I get a tear in a wing now, it's just another day. Just a matter of when, not if.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: Dontsink on March 03, 2021, 10:30:38 PM
Expensive but less than i feared, if an Aluula 5m gets me up on foil like a grunty "normal" 6m and stays usable and fun when overpowered it would be very tempting.
Would make for a great upwind/downwind wing.

The canopy and bladders will become all Aluula based tech too in later versions, at least that was the plan i heard in an interview.

The Aluula material will also be made available to other manufacturers, as production permits.

Anyway,it is a bold move by Ocean Rodeo.Hoping it performs really well.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: PonoBill on March 03, 2021, 11:22:01 PM
Bound to be cool in the big sizes.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: Admin on March 04, 2021, 01:04:32 AM
MATRIX HANDLE SYSTEM
Quick change handles. Mix and match to your riding style.

This may right up there as the headline feature with weight if it means what it sounds/looks like.  The description is a bit vague but this sounds to be describing something which I have been pushing/rooting for.  A modular handle system where handles can be user customized and stiffer handles can be used.  If you look at the images below from the Mackite site they seem to show such a system.  Have they done it?

(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-cam6oqe/product_images/uploaded_images/ocean-rodeo-2021-aluula-glide-matrix-handle-system.jpg)
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-cam6oqe/product_images/uploaded_images/ocean-rodeo-2021-aluula-glide-a-wing-action.jpg)

As for the weight they are saying 50% lighter than traditional wings.  Does that mean the Swings?  A 1.5 lb 3.5 and a 2.5 lb 5.0 would be incredible.  Couple that with a modular handle system...

It will be cool to see what is actually produced.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: juandesooka on March 04, 2021, 09:50:24 AM
I will be interested to see the handles too.  The first photos I saw only had 2 handles....not a fan, as I like options.  But the photo you posted of the under-carriage, I expect the black strips on strut are connection points for optional handles. That's perfect, freedom of choice.

I am also curious to see what the "no hula" harness line design involves. As I do find it tricky sometimes to find the hook ... and the doing a hula is exactly what it feels like. Hopefully it's one of those small, clever modifications that seems so obvious once you see it.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: Supfool on March 04, 2021, 10:26:53 AM
The handles look promising, but I've never thought to myself, "Gee Supfool, wouldn't it be nice to have a wing that weighs half as much as my current one, even it costs twice as much?" Nah.  In a kite I can see the benefit where you're swinging it around to generate power lightness helps.  In a relatively static wing I suspect the advantage is less pronounced.  Too bad it's so homely looking, but then again OR has never been known for their aesthetic appeal.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: PonoBill on March 04, 2021, 10:47:34 AM
the number one thing I hate about my Airrush 7.0 is the length of the strut, which loves to dig into the surface and stand itself up straight. But a close second is the weight. anytime you go off the wind--even just broadening up the reach, the wing gets heavy. Downwind it's all I can do to keep it up. In the light winds that big wings are made for, turning downwind means having little to no support. so yeah, light weight for big wings is a huge deal--at least it is for me.

Unfortunately, there isn't a 7.0 for the OR wing, or I'd order it. Fortunately, I will soon be where it doesn't matter so much.

fifteen psi in the boom--that's going to be as stiff as carbon.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: Wetstuff on March 04, 2021, 10:58:03 AM
In thinking back, after Fool's comment...  I remember kites in the early 2000s falling out of the sky if you were trying to 'ghost' downwind, praying for a lighter canopy, but a 'static' wing as he mentions seems less an issue.  Taking FLkiter's lead - I would probably better off have a duplicate while waiting for AIRTIME to finish my repair during peak season. Buying a second when someone "upgrades" seems a good season-saver move.

Jim
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: Fishman on March 04, 2021, 11:35:09 AM
the number one thing I hate about my Airrush 7.0 is the length of the strut, which loves to dig into the surface and stand itself up straight. But a close second is the weight. anytime you go off the wind--even just broadening up the reach, the wing gets heavy. Downwind it's all I can do to keep it up. In the light winds that big wings are made for, turning downwind means having little to no support. so yeah, light weight for big wings is a huge deal--at least it is for me.

Unfortunately, there isn't a 7.0 for the OR wing, or I'd order it. Fortunately, I will soon be where it doesn't matter so much.

fifteen psi in the boom--that's going to be as stiff as carbon.
Large wings being light weight was the main reason I went with the Takoon line. The 7m with f-one type weight made it much more of a pleasure the heavier wing I had before.
 Thing is it seems like theres a tipping point for these bigger wings. Below 0.9 lbs per meter just works good. The other wing I tried is 1.0 lbs per meter at times seems like work.
 A 7 or 8 meter that weighed below 0.6 lbs per meter could be gold for my neck of the woods.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: Solent Foiler on March 04, 2021, 12:10:19 PM
The handles look promising, but I've never thought to myself, "Gee Supfool, wouldn't it be nice to have a wing that weighs half as much as my current one, even it costs twice as much?" Nah.  In a kite I can see the benefit where you're swinging it around to generate power lightness helps.  In a relatively static wing I suspect the advantage is less pronounced.  Too bad it's so homely looking, but then again OR has never been known for their aesthetic appeal.

But the weight is just one aspect. It's up to you how much performance you're looking for, but I'm on the waiting list and super excited because it potentially offer the following benefits to me:

- lowering the minimum wind speed I can have fun in, not only in absolute terms, but could an Aluula 5m make my 34L board more of an every day board and mean I won't feel a need to get a bigger board so much.
- boosting power. Holding onto a 5m boosting airs when I'd normally be on a 4m on a wing than handles similar to a 4m sounds pretty awesome to me!
- really cranking it upwind in a harness using the best upwind performing wing on the market (stiffest with smallest diameter leading edge) sounds great for where I wing
- turning the corner and coming downwind using a wing that feels over a size smaller than the power it offers will also feel awesome
- easier transitions, especially in large sizes when winds are light so consequences of dropping off the foil are high, yes please!
- much more robust inflatable sections means I'll be less anxious about going far from home in case anything goes pop.

Don't get me wrong, this is still all to be proven, but the basic physics that this new material offers all work towards making it a reality. There are limits to Dacron that just cannot be overcome through design. I'm just wrestling with justifying the price of the A series over the HL. Does it change the game? Perhaps not, but for me it does offer some tangible benefits that I can afford to pay for, even just on expectation.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: SUPladomi on March 04, 2021, 01:29:07 PM
But the weight is just one aspect. It's up to you how much performance you're looking for, but I'm on the waiting list and super excited because it potentially offer the following benefits to me:
- lowering the minimum wind speed I can have fun in, not only in absolute terms, but could an Aluula 5m make my 34L board more of an every day board and mean I won't feel a need to get a bigger board so much.
From what I have read about their A series kites, there is not really any increase in low end.
- boosting power. Holding onto a 5m boosting airs when I'd normally be on a 4m on a wing than handles similar to a 4m sounds pretty awesome to me!
I have read that the high end stability of their A series kites is exceptional and many people feel like they boost better for their size.
- really cranking it upwind in a harness using the best upwind performing wing on the market (stiffest with smallest diameter leading edge) sounds great for where I wing
- turning the corner and coming downwind using a wing that feels over a size smaller than the power it offers will also feel awesome
Praise is almost universal in regards to the exceptional drift of the A series kites. I imagine this should translate well
- easier transitions, especially in large sizes when winds are light so consequences of dropping off the foil are high, yes please!
Again universal praise for the kites in terms of the amazing light and playful handling of the A series kites.
- much more robust inflatable sections means I'll be less anxious about going far from home in case anything goes pop.
Don't get me wrong, this is still all to be proven, but the basic physics that this new material offers all work towards making it a reality. There are limits to Dacron that just cannot be overcome through design. I'm just wrestling with justifying the price of the A series over the HL. Does it change the game? Perhaps not, but for me it does offer some tangible benefits that I can afford to pay for, even just on expectation.
I have pre-ordered as well.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: Dontsink on March 04, 2021, 01:47:29 PM
I think light weight in a wing matters a lot.

In lulls when slogging because you dont have to hold it up ,in pumping because it will allow quicker rate with less effort, in maneuvers & downwind because it will flag nicely even in wind drops and the low inertia will make it easier to throw around out of the way or back into hands,in getting in and out of the water,in keeping it high and safe in the shorebreak...

And Aluula does not absorb water like Dacron,so the weight difference will be even more noticeable unless you never fall :)
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: Solent Foiler on March 04, 2021, 02:05:59 PM

- lowering the minimum wind speed I can have fun in, not only in absolute terms, but could an Aluula 5m make my 34L board more of an every day board and mean I won't feel a need to get a bigger board so much.
From what I have read about their A series kites, there is not really any increase in low end.

I don't think the comparison with kites hold here. Pumping wings is inherently different to kite dynamics. The increase in stiffness of a wing which is unsupported vs a kite which is supported via it's lines should mean the increase in wing stiffness plus lighter weight should make much more effective pumping. My dealer has confirmed as much, but I'm not blindly following that indication. It might not be true. But a very stiff, very light wing for sinker board starts can only help I reckon.

Also, thinner leading edges will be less drag once flying so should ghost through lulls more easily.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: SUPladomi on March 04, 2021, 02:19:51 PM
I think light weight in a wing matters a lot.

In lulls when slogging because you dont have to hold it up ,in pumping because it will allow quicker rate with less effort, in maneuvers & downwind because it will flag nicely even in wind drops and the low inertia will make it easier to throw around out of the way or back into hands,in getting in and out of the water,in keeping it high and safe in the shorebreak...

And Aluula does not absorb water like Dacron,so the weight difference will be even more noticeable unless you never fall :)

All excellent points! Especially the last one!
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: SUPladomi on March 04, 2021, 02:31:29 PM

- lowering the minimum wind speed I can have fun in, not only in absolute terms, but could an Aluula 5m make my 34L board more of an every day board and mean I won't feel a need to get a bigger board so much.
From what I have read about their A series kites, there is not really any increase in low end.

I don't think the comparison with kites hold here. Pumping wings is inherently different to kite dynamics. The increase in stiffness of a wing which is unsupported vs a kite which is supported via it's lines should mean the increase in wing stiffness plus lighter weight should make much more effective pumping. My dealer has confirmed as much, but I'm not blindly following that indication. It might not be true. But a very stiff, very light wing for sinker board starts can only help I reckon.

Also, thinner leading edges will be less drag once flying so should ghost through lulls more easily.

I hope you are correct. That would be f'ng incredible if there was an increase in low end power along with what should be more high end.

I agree that pumping should be a breeze and better glide through lulls would be amazing! .

Trying to temper my expectations! Ha ha! I'm a big fan of OR. Been kiting exclusively with their kites and for over 10 years.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: SurfIC on March 05, 2021, 05:43:38 AM
One concern is the canopy is the same as all other brands.

So the canopy is going to blow out and lose draft stability and upwind performance, like any other brand. Thatís less than 6 months for a frequent user.

Dwight - how many sessions do you think a wing can take before it starts to blow out and lose performance? I have no previous kite or wind sport background, surfing "was" my main passion!! My most used Wing has around 50 sessions so far..
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: Dwight (DW) on March 05, 2021, 07:49:41 AM

Dwight - how many sessions do you think a wing can take before it starts to blow out and lose performance?

I wing 3 to 4 times a week year round. I noticed the handles I rode in, started to shift rearward on my beloved 6m last year, around 4 months into its life. So 48 weeks x 3.5 sessions = 168 sessions. But, I probably rode the 6m 60% of those sessions. So 168*.6= 100 sessions in, you start to notice degradation.

My buddy, who runs a wing school, changes his personal wings out every 3 months.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: Supfool on March 05, 2021, 08:49:57 AM
I think the big advantage with this wing will be  its relatively narrow leading edge.  Ever ride a kite with a super narrow leading edge then swap to one with a fat LE?  The thin one goes upwind soooo much better, and will jump to the moon, it's not the only factor, but it's an important one.  Ever windfoil with a reduced diameter mast then grab a wing and go for a rip?  The windfoil destroys it upwind, largely in part due to the super narrow LE. 

As for OR, my expectations are tempered.  I remember back in 2005 when they released their first also-ran game-changer bow kite, the OR One.  They advertised it's design as having been "locked in the vault" for years (to avoid patent infringement) and they pitched it as a one-kite quiver, to those ignorant enough of the new kite designs to think this was actually a possibility.  Anyways it was a good kite for the time among great kites, but not worthy of all their hype.  To me this looks to be at minimum a good wing, hopefully a great wing, but I don't know if the cost will be justified in performance.  Hopefully the durability of aluula makes it worthwhile, we will see!  :)
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: deja vu on March 05, 2021, 09:18:03 AM
Personally, I feel this wing is premature given its cost and the fact that wing design is in its infancy.  I, for one, am not prepared to spend this amount on a wing, which no doubt will be lighter and stronger but may not handle certain aspects of performance as well as some others will due to their potential design advantages.  When other companies, which have wings known to work well, start to use this material it will cut the risks greatly.  A little patience can go a long ways. 
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: juandesooka on March 05, 2021, 10:04:45 AM

Dwight - how many sessions do you think a wing can take before it starts to blow out and lose performance?

I wing 3 to 4 times a week year round. I noticed the handles I rode in, started to shift rearward on my beloved 6m last year, around 4 months into its life. So 48 weeks x 3.5 sessions = 168 sessions. But, I probably rode the 6m 60% of those sessions. So 168*.6= 100 sessions in, you start to notice degradation.

My buddy, who runs a wing school, changes his personal wings out every 3 months.

Thanks for clarifying Dwight.  Handles shifting rearward...do mean the handle material?  Or the strut material they are attached to, or the canopy material the strut is attached to?

I am probably 100ish sessions on my ozones, I've not noticed any canopy/strut degradation, but the handles on the 4m are stretched thin (came that way, I bought it used).  I was thinking I could sew in some material on them to both bring them back, both stiffen and soften the grip.  A rainy day project maybe.

OR: it will be interesting to see how it plays out.  They are playing catch-up, 2 generations behind, but the first gen wings had some obvious losers, and the new gen seems to have more "convergence" on designs that work...so I expect OR and other late players will get to skip that awkward first gen and jump right into workable wings.  Some riders may decide to skip the OR first gen, wait for bugs to be worked out, then invest in Gen2.  Others will jump right in as the first-adopters.... as so many of us in this fledgling sup/surf/wing foiling have done... "life's too short to wait, I want my fun and I want it NOW"....LOL.  It's hard to believe that those early sup foils were released only 4-5 years ago, those first videos of Kai Lenny and others blowing minds on pumping back out for repeat waves.  It is truly shocking how fast things are moving.  A lot of gear has flowed through my little world in the last few years, chasing that next level performance gain.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: Dwight (DW) on March 05, 2021, 10:54:53 AM


Thanks for clarifying Dwight.  Handles shifting rearward...do mean the handle material? 


No.

As a wing ages, the center of pressure moves rearward. If your wing has only 2 handles and pressure is balanced between your hands when NEW, then 100 sessions later the precise balance deterioration would cause more rear hand pressure, and no longer be in perfect balance.

If your wing has many handles, then you might notice the urge to use a different handle, or be wanting to place your hand between handles (trying to grab two at once) to get perfect balance of hand pressures.

With boom-ish designs you would be less likely to notice this, but itís still happening.
Title: Re: Ocean Rodeo Wing -- preorder
Post by: Solent Foiler on March 05, 2021, 11:30:51 AM
My Gong wings are probably getting that old and I've not noticed any shift on center of effort, but I've always used the pretty substantial battens which would have helped with the stretch and also help wing stability in use. I'm still very happy with the performance of them even if they're not light.

I take the point about canopy stretch and actually it would be a shrewd move by OR to reinforce the canopy with strips of Aluula to increase longevity on future models. Worst case if it did become a problem with these ones would be to get the seams recut to give the original profile back. Your view on this may vary!

I'm not so concerned by design faults, maybe naively. It's not like they can't learn from other brands and if you're going to launch the most expensive wing on the market by far, and have no real deadline you can take the time to get it right. The launch has been pretty low key! Not saying that the first gens will be perfect, but their access to Aluula means they're going to be at such a design advantage before they even start because they have fewer compromises to make - they've got weight and stiffness on their side. This means it's likely to be at least a very good wing as minimum. I'm hoping for 'exceptional' but that's mainly blind faith!
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