Standup Zone Forum

The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: blueplanetsurf on February 06, 2021, 02:12:25 PM

Title: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on February 06, 2021, 02:12:25 PM
Welcome to the Blue Planet Show!  This long form interview with Zane Kekoa Schweitzer is the first episode of the Blue Planet show where I will interview athletes, designers and thought leaders on the cutting edge of Wing Foiling.  The interviews are recorded on Zoom with screen shared videos to go along with the conversation and will be available on our YouTube channel and as a podcast.

If you want to skip the bloody accident and start watching where we start talking about wing foiling, skip ahead to 30 minutes.

A big thank you to Zane Schweitzer for being my first guest.  For more information and to contact Zane, please visit Zane's website:
https://zaneschweitzer.com

Please let me know what you think of this new show, I will add new shows to this thread.

https://youtu.be/-9LOww3u738
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Pasquales on February 06, 2021, 02:49:49 PM
Thanks for putting this together, and for being a good foil steward and including PSA's.  I was prone foiling today with a buddy who's a beginner.  As the lineup starting filling up, I had to remind him to move down from the crowds.  Nice interview learning about Zane .  Besides being an elite athlete, He seems like a cool guy.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: surfcowboy on February 06, 2021, 09:23:17 PM
Yes, Robert I love that youíre doing this.

One interesting tech tip. My wife has been editing Zoom sessions for a non profit (Blue Endeavors! Super cool.) and sheís using Descript. Check it out as it might help you edit faster and if nothing else, you can use it to remove ďumís and ahísĒ and stuff like that which can make interviews hard to listen to.

Canít wait to check this out.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on February 13, 2021, 09:56:57 AM
Thanks for the tip surfcowboy, I used Descript to edit the audio file for posting as a podcast, made it super easy to edit out the um's.
The podcast is now also available on apple and android devices, just search for "Blue Planet Show" on the podcast app to listen to these long form interviews while driving or doing other things.

I just posted the second interview with Balz Muller, his moves are inspirational and he has been pushing the progression of the sport at an amazing pace.

https://youtu.be/k9HuU3-GLvs

Balz MŁller wing foil interview- Blue Planet Show episode 2
In this second episode of the Blue Planet Show, I speak with Wing Foil expert Balz MŁller at his home in Switzerland by zoom call.  Balz talks about his background, different sports, the evolution of wing foiling, competing in Brazil, technique, the future of the sport, gear and more.
The Blue Planet Show is now also available as a podcast, search for "Blue Planet Show" on your podcast app.  Questions and comments are always welcome.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: pafoil on February 13, 2021, 11:18:33 PM
Great content Robert, you definittely have a subscriber.  ;).
As the equipment evolves we need more technical conversations.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Wetstuff on February 15, 2021, 06:33:52 AM
Thanks for doing that, Robert.  I love the Progression Project but it can get weedy. It often feels like a little brother listening in on his big brother's phone calls.  Add some folks from lower down the mountain, like an Alan Kadiz, who can discuss the early hurdles for newbies, etc.

If you are getting echo - hang some cheap carpets a few inches off a wall ..a small-town radio trick, pre acoustic foam. 

For those who prefer the 'big screen' at home (I take the Americas Cup home), there is iTubedownloader. (for Mac) It speed-downloads any Youtube video to the desktop.  I carry USB sticks home so I don't have to stay up for the best bits of Saturday Night Live, etc.  I also use AUDIALS on a PC to dnld Amazon Prime, etc. as there is no broadband or strong cellular at home.  (Within 100mi of the Whitehouse as the crow flies.)

Jim
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: deja vu on February 15, 2021, 06:47:58 AM
Robert, I took away two things from your Balz interview: 1) keep wing foiling simple from an equipment point-of-view and 2) a wing with a "real" boom would  help with his style of winging.  Maybe Ensis will have a boomed wing soon.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Dwight (DW) on February 15, 2021, 07:20:32 AM
I loved hearing Blatzís windsurfing roots affecting his design choices on handles/booms. Also great to hear windows must return for safety.

Sounds like a brand I can ride and stick with long term. We think alike.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on February 15, 2021, 12:50:53 PM
Thanks for the feedback Jim, I think Alan Cadiz would be a great guest, I will contact him.
downloading the youtube videos before the interview is a good idea as well.
deja vu, agreed, keeping it simple is the way and a stiff boom allows small wrist movements to control wing better than soft handles.
Dwight, I agree that windows make it safer but they also add weight and are more sensitive to damage, so it's mixed bag.  If you wing in a crowded spot, windows are very helpful.  I find I don't really need a window as I can just bring it higher and peek under the wing.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Hdip on February 15, 2021, 12:57:51 PM
Just finished the Zane episode today. The 2nd episode isn't coming up in my podcast feed though. I'm using "overcast" app on an iPhone.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on February 15, 2021, 02:01:46 PM
Just finished the Zane episode today. The 2nd episode isn't coming up in my podcast feed though. I'm using "overcast" app on an iPhone.
Thanks for the feedback.
I just published the Balz Muller interview to the podcast, so it should be available through your overcast app feed now.
You can also find it here: https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-hwbni-fad423
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Hdip on February 15, 2021, 02:37:02 PM
That did it. Thanks!
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on March 06, 2021, 10:22:11 AM
This is the third episode with Alan Cadiz- great history lesson, the new Duotone Slick wing, technique and more:
https://youtu.be/sLG1i2rVAg8
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: PonoBill on March 06, 2021, 05:00:05 PM
Great interview with Allan. There's about 200 years of experience stuffed into that guy.

And yeah, Zane is an amazing guy. I've been fortunate enough to be enjoying him since he was about 14. He hasn't changed a lick. When we did the SUP board test on Maui back in 2006 or 7 Zane was the first guy into the water and ran flat out, all day long. He'd come up, fill out the review paperwork as fast as humanly possible, grab another board and run flat out into the water. At 14 he was polite to everyone, respectful of everyone, nice to everyone, always helpful. Hasn't changed.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: deja vu on March 06, 2021, 05:04:31 PM
Great interview -- I loved the questions about the equipment Alan is using and his response -- background, people who developed the equipment, etc.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Califoilia on March 06, 2021, 07:29:33 PM
Zane was the first guy into the water and ran flat out, all day long. He'd come up, fill out the review paperwork as fast as humanly possible, grab another board and run flat out into the water. At 14 he was polite to everyone, respectful of everyone, nice to everyone, always helpful. Hasn't changed.
No he hasn't. He was at Sano a couple three years ago, and was the most stoked, charismatic, and friendliest guy on the beach. It was like you'd known him of years on the first greeting, and he treated all like he'd known them for years, and was best friends with everyone. For someone I consider a professional athlete, he didn't exhibit one once of "I'm better or more special than everyone" like so many
pro athletes can do. Incredible young man.

Kai Lenny was another one just like Zane when he passed through Sano several months before Zane...two of the nicest, most down to earth guys you'd ever meet. Their parents (and community) raised them right. More parents and kids nowadays could/should take lessons from those families. 
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: deja vu on March 07, 2021, 09:48:12 AM
Robert -- you discussed with Alan one of the main issues some have had with the Echo, that being the tendency of the Echo, when in the water to sink at the rear.  There is a simple and inexpensive solution to this issue.  Purchase a pool noodle and cut off 6 to 10 inches and slide it over the rear (the extension) of the boom.  This will provide enough flotation at the rear of the wing to eliminate the problem.  The 6 to 10" of poole noodle will be very stiff on the boom due to the small hole down its centre and this will keep it from sliding around on the boom's extension.  You just need to pull the boom's extension out of the main part of the boom and slide the noodle over the extension and then attach the draft line before sliding the extension back into the main part of the boom -- adds about 10 to 15 seconds to the process.  To remove the draft line you once again pull the extension out of the boom (leave the noodle on the extension).  By adding the a section of the poole noodle to the boom you are in essence adding a mini centre strut to the boom.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on March 07, 2021, 10:26:41 AM
Robert -- you discussed with Alan one of the main issues some have had with the Echo, that being the tendency of the Echo, when in the water to sink at the rear.  There is a simple and inexpensive solution to this issue.  Purchase a pool noodle and cut off 6 to 10 inches and slide it over the rear (the extension) of the boom.  This will provide enough flotation at the rear of the wing to eliminate the problem.  The 6 to 10" of poole noodle will be very stiff on the boom due to the small hole down its centre and this will keep it from sliding around on the boom's extension.  You just need to pull the boom's extension out of the main part of the boom and slide the noodle over the extension and then attach the draft line before sliding the extension back into the main part of the boom -- adds about 10 to 15 seconds to the process.  To remove the draft line you once again pull the extension out of the boom (leave the noodle on the extension).  By adding the a section of the poole noodle to the boom you are in essence adding a mini centre strut to the boom.
That's a great tip, thank you!
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on March 13, 2021, 01:34:42 PM
Thank you for all the great feedback.  I just posted episode #4 long form interview with Annie Reickert,  a talented young water woman from Maui.  We talk about surfing, big wave riding and Jaws wipeouts, foiling, and, of course wing foiling.

https://youtu.be/xQZHLpLGYTo



You can also listen to the audio only interviews as a podcast on apple and android apps or here:

https://blueplanet.podbean.com/e/annie-reickert-wing-foil-interview-episode-4/
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on March 20, 2021, 01:02:40 PM
Rob Whittall is co founder and head designer at Ozone and a partner at Armstrong.  He talks about his background, the Wasp V2 design, the Armstrong A+ system, and more good stuff you will enjoy if you are a diehard windfoiler:
https://youtu.be/tLOelPbv28A
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Solent Foiler on March 22, 2021, 05:58:59 AM
Excellent interview Robert! 👍🤙
Although I get the impression he is being modest about his 'Average Joe' abilities if he's getting foiling on a 4m in 10-12 knots!
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Alysum on March 22, 2021, 01:52:04 PM
Yes I really enjoyed this one. Thanks.

Haha yes a 4m in 10kn even at 60 kg yeah nah  ;D
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: gone_foiling on March 23, 2021, 05:26:22 AM
Although I get the impression he is being modest about his 'Average Joe' abilities if he's getting foiling on a 4m in 10-12 knots!

I feel like it is a load of bs on his part. I am almost 2 years in my winging journey and I have only tried original 6m wasp. Power wise it felt somewhat between 4-5m swings that I have. It was around 12 mph winds that day when I tried it and I WAS NOT able to get up on the foil with 6m wasp and I was dancing circles on my 5m Swing. The same story with the 6m S25 Naish. Not great wings in my book. So I am quite skeptical of those statements. Original duotone 5m had a great power delivery but was unruly in the surf.
Interesting to see what they have done with v2 version.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Dwight (DW) on March 23, 2021, 07:09:35 AM
gone_foiling,

When windsurfing was a young sport, there were years where board design drove sail design. Then there were years where sail design drove board design. Those days are mostly over, thankfully.

With wing surfing, we are at a stage where two items affect wing design and how it works. Foils ďandĒ boards. Then throw in so many different techniques, from different users, and what a shit show of opposing opinions we get.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: gone_foiling on March 23, 2021, 08:32:56 AM
DW,

When you put different users on different setups and one works particularly well for all while others suck, then you can draw some conclusions. I understand all the different aspects of foiling but when everything worked but then you introduce a new variable and it doesnít anymore that tells me something. All I know wasp and naish were designed for much windier spots so ďaverage joeĒ can just stay home if it is 10kn unless you are into self mutilation. Itís just my shitty opinion.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: SimonP on March 23, 2021, 10:57:01 AM
Yes I really enjoyed this one. Thanks.
Haha yes a 4m in 10kn even at 60 kg yeah nah  ;D
Unless he is winging somewhere with lots of current. Ozone do a lot of their testing in Raglan, New Zealand where the outgoing tide is at least 5 knots.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Dontsink on March 23, 2021, 01:21:16 PM
Huge factor in getting up on foil is how flat the water is.
Even more so with modern thin foils,they need boardspeed to rise.In chop it can be really frustrating,even more in cross chop.
But if the water is flat...

https://youtu.be/KyEXhYHhDBQ
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: FoilMad on March 23, 2021, 01:51:58 PM
I weigh 65kg and with a gl180, 70 litre board and wasp 4 I can definitely foil in 10 knots on a lake. Hard to start but once up I can have fun. The wasp is stiffer than the fone and nothing like the naish. Maybe your 6m try on the wasp could have done with some air in it as the wasp was the stiffest out of the early wings and still holds up well against some of the newer wings. The handles were not good. Fone may have been better on the apparent wind but not low down. My opinion.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Solent Foiler on March 23, 2021, 04:06:33 PM
Huge factor in getting up on foil is how flat the water is.
Even more so with modern thin foils,they need boardspeed to rise.In chop it can be really frustrating,even more in cross chop.
But if the water is flat...

https://youtu.be/KyEXhYHhDBQ

I've been having huge frustration getting my 65kg ass up in 10 knots and I've just bought a narrower, pointier board to try and help get through the chop in the lighter stuff, but I know my foil pumping technique needs to improve if I'm going to get 10 knots cracked. Currently nowhere near doing it on a 4m but will continue to plug away at it.

I appreciate the video, but I'm suspicious of the wind speed claim. Really looks more than 10 knots to me. 10 knots is a gentle breeze which doesn't pull at much as it appears at the start...
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Beasho on March 23, 2021, 06:23:35 PM
I appreciate the video, but I'm suspicious of the wind speed claim. Really looks more than 10 knots to me. 10 knots is a gentle breeze which doesn't pull at much as it appears at the start...

I am a bit suspicious because there were what looked like wakes/whitecaps coming off the back of his board to leeward.  HOWEVER Gunnar is a Wind-Ding superhero.  And he showed the wing graphs. 

You have to compare your number of sessions and experience against his. 

I am not calling BS on anyone that has 4X or 10X the number of winging sessions that I have (I am around 30).  At this point I have to sit by their knee and listen.   
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Solent Foiler on March 24, 2021, 12:16:29 AM
I appreciate the video, but I'm suspicious of the wind speed claim. Really looks more than 10 knots to me. 10 knots is a gentle breeze which doesn't pull at much as it appears at the start...

I am a bit suspicious because there were what looked like wakes/whitecaps coming off the back of his board to leeward.  HOWEVER Gunnar is a Wind-Ding superhero.  And he showed the wing graphs. 

You have to compare your number of sessions and experience against his. 

I am not calling BS on anyone that has 4X or 10X the number of winging sessions that I have (I am around 30).  At this point I have to sit by their knee and listen.   

For sure. I'm not denying he can do it, but I'm just calling what I see. I've been involved with wind sport for over 20 years wasted many hours waiting for breeze to fill in, so know what 10 knots looks like. Not calling BS either - perhaps the images are misleading or there were 10 knots periods during that session, but when compared to Balz's video of getting going on his 4.5 on his sinker with barely a few ripples this does look significantly windier. Whatever, I'm on my own journey, and would be massively grateful to have just 5 mins in Gunnar' body just to feel how he does it!
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on March 26, 2021, 11:27:29 AM
I would say that you can get up on foil in pretty light wind on a 4M wing with the right foil and good pump technique, but you might need to wait for a 12 knot gust.

These are my first impressions of the Wasp V2, can you believe how easy the setup is?

https://youtu.be/gCGic1x6BMk
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on April 03, 2021, 10:24:01 AM
In this episode#6 of the Blue Planet Show I talk to Sam Loader, the designer of the PPC Wing which is my favorite wing.
Watch it on youtube or listen to it as a podcast, just search for the Blue Planet Show in your favorite podcast app, thank you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO222jWvCJM
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on April 17, 2021, 09:56:41 AM
We are posting a new Blue Planet Show this morning, an in depth interview with Kane De Wilde about wing foil design and technique.  We are posting it as a video premiere at 7 am Hawaii time with live commentary and Q&A, please join use here:
https://youtu.be/NtJ0bWpw41Y
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: surfcowboy on April 19, 2021, 07:33:27 PM
Robert, thanks for doing these.

Iím not even jibing on foil yet but I can tell you one thing Iíve learned is getting on foil in light wind. My wind speed needed to fly drops monthly. If youíre struggling, be willing to get help and spend some time on flat water on light days practicing. Itís not super fun but it pays off. Also if any of you are still flapping the wing when you pump instead of keeping it full of air and pulling, that will help a ton. Someone needs to make a video of this because I thought I was pumping the wing until I reeeeally pumped the wing. All of a sudden the world opens up and it feels like you are paddling your board. Smooth pumps are a whole different thing. (Insert dirty joke here.)

And now, thanks to Kane there, Iím evaluating my foil and board position and setup. I have a strong suspicion that a wind wing allows you to overlook a lot of issues with your rig as far as balance, box position, etc. You can power out of bad setups with wind. But if itís right itíll be easier. Iíll bet all our rigs could be tweaked for easier riding. Damien LeRoy talks about this on a recent video too.

But I have to warn you guys, do NOT watch the Kane video. You will lose a whole day since you will want to watch it about 4 times to get all the info. Iíll be going back to this one for a while. Thx Robert.

Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: deja vu on April 20, 2021, 08:49:56 AM
Robert -- at the 32 minute mark of the video you talk about a method you use to determine where your mast should be located in the track to balance the board and foil.  Is this just a starting point or is this a foolproof method of finding the right spot for your foil every time?  This works for both HA and LA foils? 

As soon as I get a chance to get back on the water I'm going to give this a shot -- find the thickest part of the front foil and using that spot lift the board off the ground.  The board should be parallel to the ground.  If not, move the mast either forward or backwards until the board is parallel to the ground.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Hdip on April 20, 2021, 09:29:02 AM
That was a theory KDMaui talked about on "the progression project" a year or so ago. It's a nice way to find a starting point. He has since clarified that point. You can start there, then if you're digging rails in turns, you move the mast back towards the tail for more lift. If you're getting launched off the board and can't keep the foil in the water, you move the mast forwards towards the nose for less lift.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: deja vu on April 20, 2021, 09:59:35 AM
Thanks for the reply.

I'm a little confused.  My experience has been that moving the mast (foil) forward gives me more lift, not less -- by moving the mast back (foil) there is more body weight in front of the foil to counter the foil's lift [front foot heavy move mast (and foil) back -- back foot heavy move mast (and foil) forward].  Am I out to lunch?
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Dontsink on April 20, 2021, 10:40:52 AM
Thanks for the reply.

I'm a little confused.  My experience has been that moving the mast (foil) forward gives me more lift, not less -- by moving the mast back (foil) there is more body weight in front of the foil to counter the foil's lift [front foot heavy move mast (and foil) back -- back foot heavy move mast (and foil) forward].  Am I out to lunch?

Here you go,from KD himself:

https://www.foilfeed.net/forums/topic/foil-placement/
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Solent Foiler on April 20, 2021, 11:44:55 AM
Thanks for the reply.

I'm a little confused.  My experience has been that moving the mast (foil) forward gives me more lift, not less -- by moving the mast back (foil) there is more body weight in front of the foil to counter the foil's lift [front foot heavy move mast (and foil) back -- back foot heavy move mast (and foil) forward].  Am I out to lunch?

Here you go,from KD himself:

https://www.foilfeed.net/forums/topic/foil-placement/

Yeah, think you got that the wrong way round Dontsink. KD says:
"In conclusion, breaching tips in turns = foil back and touching rail in turns = foil forwards."
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Hdip on April 20, 2021, 11:51:04 AM
That was a theory KDMaui talked about on "the progression project" a year or so ago. It's a nice way to find a starting point. He has since clarified that point. You can start there, then if you're digging rails in turns, you move the mast FORWARD towards the NOSE for more lift. If you're getting launched off the board and can't keep the foil in the water, you move the mast BACKWARDS towards the TAIL for less lift.

I typed that up to fast and had it completely backwards. Sorry about that. Couldn't edit old post.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on April 20, 2021, 04:29:24 PM
You can also move your foot/ weight placement in relation to the foil but having the center of gravity line up with the center of lift seems to make everything feel easier to control and more balanced and is a good starting point.

I'm working on a video on setting up your wing foil gear that will cover this as well as foot placement, using footstraps, etc.

If you lift up your setup from the thickest part of the foil, the board should be more or less level to the ground and not nose or tail heavy.  This seems to be a good starting point for most size boards and different foils, try it!



Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: bigmtn on April 20, 2021, 07:15:42 PM
https://kdfoils.myshopify.com/blogs/foil-info/hydrofoil-balance-tuning

Some good info here!
https://kdfoils.myshopify.com/blogs/foil-info
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on April 27, 2021, 04:55:43 PM
https://kdfoils.myshopify.com/blogs/foil-info/hydrofoil-balance-tuning

Some good info here!
https://kdfoils.myshopify.com/blogs/foil-info

Those are good tips from Kane.  I also posted this new video on foil placement, what board to use, where top place feet and using footsteps:
https://youtu.be/4_Fyom6kerw
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on May 01, 2021, 10:28:56 AM
Whether it's swimming with sharks, wing foiling in big waves a day before giving birth, or "toiling" on smooth North Shore walls with her smooth, flowy foil surfing style, Glennel Jordan lives a full life and openly shares about her background, surf foil and wing foil technique and equipment, her Macaw, her husband Zack and baby Raven, adventures, stories and how she keeps a positive outlook.

https://youtu.be/qkG0wtXKFwI

Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on May 15, 2021, 06:58:19 PM
I posted a new episode of the show today, an interview with Gunnar Biniasch.  His tips helped me pull off the upwind 360 spin right after this interview, stoked.
https://youtu.be/ZGyA-7fpj-E
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 16, 2021, 03:23:59 AM
My favorite interview. Well done Robert.

At the 1:05 mark, Gunnar digs into why straight tails are best (planing wing board designs, no tail bevel, or tail notches). The opposite of what Dave Kalama just said on the Progression Project podcast. Dave said if you want your board to plane, youíre doing it wrong. The difference in opinion, comes from Dave not being hard core into winging, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: pafoil on May 16, 2021, 10:25:15 PM
I have been riding different boards, including Kalama's.
My conclusion is that Kalama's light (not sharp) tail bevel are the best by far.
This allow you to increase the angle of the front wing just enough, and even stay there for a second accumulating lift.
Same experience with Fone's tail bevels, that are also not very pronounced.
Straight tails are harder to pump.

Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on May 17, 2021, 11:11:34 AM
I have been riding different boards, including Kalama's.
My conclusion is that Kalama's light (not sharp) tail bevel are the best by far.
This allow you to increase the angle of the front wing just enough, and even stay there for a second accumulating lift.
Same experience with Fone's tail bevels, that are also not very pronounced.
Straight tails are harder to pump.

I think it really matters what kind of foil you are on.  Our wing boards are designed to pop up on the foil before you reach planing speed- with tail bevel/ rocker that allow you to pump up on foil easily.  A flatter planing shape will accelerate and reach planing speed easier but also makes it harder to increase angle of attack to pop up on foil earlier.  This planing start works better for small, thin, high aspect foils that need more speed to create enough lift and will stall at high angles of attack.   The foils most of us use can lift off well before reaching planing speed though.  I prefer having a board that allows you to pop up on foil but can also see the merits of an early planing shape for high aspect foils.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: pafoil on May 18, 2021, 10:28:44 PM
I have been riding different boards, including Kalama's.
My conclusion is that Kalama's light (not sharp) tail bevel are the best by far.
This allow you to increase the angle of the front wing just enough, and even stay there for a second accumulating lift.
Same experience with Fone's tail bevels, that are also not very pronounced.
Straight tails are harder to pump.

I think it really matters what kind of foil you are on.  Our wing boards are designed to pop up on the foil before you reach planing speed- with tail bevel/ rocker that allow you to pump up on foil easily.  A flatter planing shape will accelerate and reach planing speed easier but also makes it harder to increase angle of attack to pop up on foil earlier.  This planing start works better for small, thin, high aspect foils that need more speed to create enough lift and will stall at high angles of attack.   The foils most of us use can lift off well before reaching planing speed though.  I prefer having a board that allows you to pop up on foil but can also see the merits of an early planing shape for high aspect foils.

I believe that a tail with a an angle around 20-30ļ is sufficient to increase the angle of attack, and will help you to prevent the foil stall you mention.
I had f-ones and Kalama with this light bevel/rocker and they are the ones going up easier and earlier. To much bevel is trickier as you can easily pass right angle. K
My Kalama goes out of the water in 6 knt, so easy compare with other small lighter boards.
At least, this is my theory Robert; I'm going to test this in my new downwind board.
Perhaps, you should bring Mr Kalama to the show; he can explain why the tail rocker seems to be a constan in all his experiments.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 20, 2021, 12:22:09 PM
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CPGrD_cDFac/?utm_medium=copy_link

Another brand joins the straight tail bandwagon

Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: jondrums on May 20, 2021, 01:25:45 PM
Very interesting - I'm seeing the difference of opinion here may come down to which foil we're riding and what our weight is.  On an early lift foil that can get out of the water at slow speeds, we aren't thinking about planing before getting out of the water.  But on some of the thinner high aspect foils, we need more speed to get it going and the longer waterline flat bottom will plane up easier.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Solent Foiler on May 20, 2021, 03:18:38 PM
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CPGrD_cDFac/?utm_medium=copy_link

Another brand joins the straight tail bandwagon

A narrower and 4" shorter version of the Boom 94 is similar to what I was designing in my head for a light wind board. Like the look of that...
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: pafoil on May 20, 2021, 09:47:04 PM
Very interesting - I'm seeing the difference of opinion here may come down to which foil we're riding and what our weight is.  On an early lift foil that can get out of the water at slow speeds, we aren't thinking about planing before getting out of the water.  But on some of the thinner high aspect foils, we need more speed to get it going and the longer waterline flat bottom will plane up easier.

Hi,
Yes that's a factor. Another is getting use to it, if are used to find limit of what the board can lift up, you are probably going to miss it.
I'm riding the gofoil GL240 in light winds.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: WingSurfPeterT on May 21, 2021, 04:57:08 AM
hmm wonder who will come out with a board with a removable wedge so you decide what tail shape to have on a given day/foil.


or back the flex tail ideas..here is a newer version than the 1980 tinklers.... https://witchcraft.nu/boards/flex-tail/
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Dontsink on May 21, 2021, 10:53:19 AM
This is the mod i did to straighten the tails.Working very good.
More pics here https://mega.nz/folder/ce4HEQZD#vZ8qI-9JVnqVBJpuDUlA9g
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: deja vu on May 22, 2021, 06:40:04 AM
Robert -- you should consider having DW on your podcast to talk about board, foil and wing design.  He seems to be at the forefront of the equipment being developed for this sport and designs and builds boards.  I'd sure be interested in his opinions about where he thinks this sport is going and why.  Just a thought.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on May 24, 2021, 12:14:54 PM
Robert -- you should consider having DW on your podcast to talk about board, foil and wing design.  He seems to be at the forefront of the equipment being developed for this sport and designs and builds boards.  I'd sure be interested in his opinions about where he thinks this sport is going and why.  Just a thought.

Thanks for all the feedback. Yes, I will try to get DW on the show soon.  Right now I have already recorded 3 more interviews and will edit and post these soon:
Mark Raaphorst
Titouan Galea
Damien LeRoy and Gwen Le tutour
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Alysum on May 24, 2021, 01:48:01 PM
Robert -- you should consider having DW on your podcast to talk about board, foil and wing design.  He seems to be at the forefront of the equipment being developed for this sport and designs and builds boards.  I'd sure be interested in his opinions about where he thinks this sport is going and why.  Just a thought.

Thanks for all the feedback. Yes, I will try to get DW on the show soon.  Right now I have already recorded 3 more interviews and will edit and post these soon:
Mark Raaphorst
Titouan Galea
Damien LeRoy and Gwen Le tutour
can't wait to watch them! Thanks!
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on June 05, 2021, 02:56:11 PM
I just posted the latest episode with Mark Raaphorst, what an interesting guy!  He moved to Maui when he was only 16, worked building boards, started SIC and now makes custom foil boards under the Flying Dutchman label:
http://youtu.be/-pK-B0vgIHc
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on June 11, 2021, 04:30:38 PM
Here is what the Oahu Crew has been up to:

https://youtu.be/Wf0BMRbPgxY
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on June 12, 2021, 12:03:11 PM
Titouan Galea needs no introduction, he's the current world champion wing foiler. He talks to me from his current home in Montpelier, France all about wing foiling, advanced technique tips, including back flips and 360 spins, equipment, and life.  Enjoy the show on YouTube or as audio only podcast, just search for the "Blue Planet Show" on your podcast app to listen to it on the go.

https://youtu.be/yVmihqCcsAI

Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on June 20, 2021, 01:57:46 PM
Damien Leroy and Gwen Le Tutour have been on a roll, posting two great instructional videos per week and helping lots of people getting started in the sport. They are humble but are clearly exceptional humans and motivated by a desire to help people.

https://youtu.be/gUVKIDex3LU
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on June 26, 2021, 10:43:18 AM
Please check out the latest episode with 12 year old ripper Kaden Pritchard and Kevin Pritchard:

https://youtu.be/S_i33RQhCfs
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on August 21, 2021, 10:43:56 AM
Alex Aguera started GoFoil and plays such an important role in the development of the sport. He basically invented the foil that allowed Kai Lenny to do downwinders on a big long board and basically kick-started this whole sport of foiling in the surf and now with wings.  We talk about the new wing foil boards and wings that GoFoil is coming out with.

https://youtu.be/phPsjPyX1S8
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Badger on August 22, 2021, 10:49:54 AM
Excellent interview. I watched it from beginning to end. Really enjoyed hearing about the early days of windsurfing right up to now with the early days of wing foiling.

.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Kojack on August 22, 2021, 12:54:03 PM
Great interview.  Thanks, Robert.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: VB_Foil on August 22, 2021, 02:30:19 PM
All hail Alex , Godfather of Surf Foiling! We all owe him a lot of thanks for our stoke (and probably a percentage of what we paid for foil gear - dodged patent royalties by manufacturers)
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on November 06, 2021, 02:10:23 PM
I'm stoked you liked the interview with Alex, here is the latest show, posted today:

New Blue Planet Show interview with Armie Armstrong of Armstrong Foils, going in depth about his background, how he grew the business into an international brand and all about the gear.  Watch it on YouTube or listen to it on your favorite podcast app.

https://youtu.be/1ARMvkQuvDQ
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Alysum on November 09, 2021, 04:23:51 AM
Great interview Robert thanks!
Adrian @ Axis next ? 😎
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: HBsups on December 15, 2021, 12:42:18 AM
Robert
I just thought Iíd say thanks for the great show. I think we are super lucky to have you, James Casey and the progression project putting out so much great foiling content! Really appreciated! Cheers HB
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: juandesooka on December 17, 2021, 09:29:32 PM
Alex Aguera started GoFoil and plays such an important role in the development of the sport. He basically invented the foil that allowed Kai Lenny to do downwinders on a big long board and basically kick-started this whole sport of foiling in the surf and now with wings.  We talk about the new wing foil boards and wings that GoFoil is coming out with.

https://youtu.be/phPsjPyX1S8

Really enjoyed this one, thanks for this Robert and for  taking the time with all of these. It's appreciated. I also greatly enjoy your crew video recaps, next best thing to being there, you guys really share the stoke.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on May 14, 2022, 01:58:13 PM
Welcome to Season 2 of the Blue Planet Show.  It's been a while but I'm planning to put out more great interviews this summer.  Starting off with a group of 5 of us talking all about wing foiling with tips for all levels of wingers.
We talk about wing handling in onshore waves, jumping off the lip and landing back in the wave, back loops, getting up on foil, equipment tips, and tips for beginners and those getting started.

https://youtu.be/wvUqrJQCqd8
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on June 11, 2022, 10:04:03 AM
Season 2, Episode 2:
Alan Cadiz comes back to the Blue Planet Show for this interview where we start with very basic beginner tips, the top five tips for beginners, and then we get into more advanced technique, racing and equipment as well.

https://youtu.be/squzSdZp5wM
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on June 19, 2022, 09:55:47 AM
In today's interview, I speak with Adrian Roper, the man behind AXIS foils. We get into some tips for beginners, talk about his background and how he got into watersports at a young age, and then we talk in detail about foil design, how to set up the foil properly, how different aspects of the foil setup affect how the foil performs, new designs he is working on, the mast, importance of stiffness, the fuselage, the angles of the foil. So many cool technical things. I learned a lot from this show. I hope you do as well.
This new Axis brochure has the shim guide Adrian mentions on pages 41,42: http://www.axisfoils.com/current-brochure

https://youtu.be/JXmIZhpxglw
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Foilgeoff on June 19, 2022, 09:57:59 AM
Thanks Robert, that was excellent!
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: daswusup on June 19, 2022, 08:01:07 PM
hell yes! best one yet. All hail Adrian the Wizard!!! Mahalo Robert. Nice work, as usual. Go Axis!!!!
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: surfcowboy on June 19, 2022, 08:09:17 PM
For those reading but maybe not watching these, the Adrian Roper one is great, no matter what brand you ride. It actually helped me understand Lift foils a lot better for example.

About every 5 minutes he explains some baffling part of foil design that we all wonder about but never quite "get." Thx Robert!!
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: WingNut Ohana on June 20, 2022, 12:54:57 PM
Wow! that was a master class on hydrofoils! I usually listen to the podcast on my drives to work. This one I had to come home and watch it again on video. I think I only understood 20% of what he was talking about, will have to rewatch.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: PonoBill on June 20, 2022, 06:59:00 PM
Good to see Adrian's smiling face, since Covid he hasn't been back to Hood River. It's always fun to talk with him. The first time he and I started talking I was supposed to meet some folks for dinner, I got so wrapped up in our conversation I showed up when everyone was starting dessert. They weren't pleased, and I couldn't say that I'd found someone more interesting to talk to than my friends. An excellent episode other than your wacky autofocus. I could tell it was distracting the heck out of you Robert.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Beasho on June 22, 2022, 10:45:03 AM
Thank you Robert:Great interview with Adriaan Roper.  I was flying the Axis 1099 and, in my head, thanking him for building a windsurfer as a kid.

What I love about foiling and foil design is that there is far, far less wiggle room for BS.  With surfboard design rails and tuck and rocker were largely subjective.  Fins added speed and drive and . .. what????

Aspect ratios, center of lift (usually 1/4 Chord point), foil shape and cambered vs asymmetric designs and the effect of stabilizers have ~120 years of history in aviation.  Having a degree in Aerospace engineering I listened to the podcast and he was spot on.  Add the benefits of computer simulation, reduced time to test, iterate, the scientific method and we get Products that work GREAT and keep improving.   I am a believer in Axis and Adrian's approach. 
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on June 26, 2022, 12:48:17 AM
I'm stoked you liked the interview with Adrian from Axis foils.  This next interview was with Clifford Coetzer, the founder and designer at Unifoil who designed some of the first high aspect surf foils.  We go over tips for wing foil beginners, his background, how he started making foils and started Unifoil, foil design evolution, construction, stiffness, tradeoffs, testing prototypes, foil characteristics, and more, enjoy.

https://youtu.be/EovlfQ05k9M
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Dwight (DW) on June 26, 2022, 06:47:01 AM
I'm stoked you liked the interview with Adrian from Axis foils.  This next interview was with Clifford Coetzer, the founder and designer at Unifoil who designed some of the first high aspect surf foils.  We go over tips for wing foil beginners, his background, how he started making foils and started Unifoil, foil design evolution, construction, stiffness, tradeoffs, testing prototypes, foil characteristics, and more, enjoy.

https://youtu.be/EovlfQ05k9M

Enjoyed hearing him explain why back foot pressure foils are bad and his attempt to create a series of tails to transition back footed foilers to front footed.

I owned a couple of back foot foil brands and really disliked that style. I often tell friends itís like standing on a squirrels back. All stability gone to shit whenever you have to apply even more back foot, like when going down swell, as Clifford talked about.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on July 09, 2022, 10:28:14 AM
Yes, front foot pressure is key to process in wing foiling.

I will keep the interviews coming, in the next interview I will catch up with Sam Loader from PPC.

I thought the "Top 5 tips for Wing Foiling Beginners" in the interview with Alan Cadiz were great, so I made a separate video and a blog post, please share it with beginners that want to learn to wing foil:
https://www.blueplanetsurf.com/blogs/news/how-to-wing-foil-top-5-tips-for-beginners-from-ala/

This is the video:
https://youtu.be/o5dpF76kOh0
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: sflinux on July 09, 2022, 11:32:57 AM
Thank you Robert. 
If you are looking for interview ideas, Chris Meissner or the team from Triton Foils would be an interesting perspective.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on July 23, 2022, 12:23:33 PM
Thanks for the suggestion HBsup.

I just posted the second interview with Sam Loader of PPC foiling, lots of interesting gear talk, my impressions of the PPC Soar board, and much more, enjoy!

https://youtu.be/Q04n7N6M8G4

to listen to it as a audio only podcast, go to your favorite podcast app and search for the Blue Planet Show, here is the episode on apple podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-blue-planet-show/id1552799894?i=1000570936417
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on December 03, 2022, 10:26:35 AM
Here is the latest episode:

https://youtu.be/k_BZT67l_fA

Jason Tangalin and Pono Matthews and the Foil Fever Ohana organized the Foilers of Aloha Classic foil contest on Kauai, held on Nov. 26th, 2022.  The event was blessed with great conditions, a stoked community of foilers and next level performance in the waves.

This interview contains drone footage of the contest, the second half also has footage documenting our 3 day trip with the crew from Oahu, we scored good wing foiling conditions on the Friday before the event.  If you can, watch it at high resolution on a big screen, enjoy!

Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on December 05, 2022, 02:39:48 PM
I have two interviews coming up this week and next week, please let post any questions you would like me to ask these guests:

1) Mike's Lab foils

2) Ken Winner
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 05, 2022, 06:16:52 PM
Questions for Mike Z.

His thoughts in fixed stabs. No shimming allowed.

His mast. How thick? Stiffness comparison to anything known outside his world.

Thoughts in fuse length.

Thoughts on mast placement on the fuse. The trend being driven by proners, is the mast getting closer to the front wing. Meanwhile, GoFoil just moved their mast FARTHER from the front wing, for better forward projection with each pump.

Read somewhere production shifting to Italy. SAB?

His thoughts on wings having lots of curves, compared to some brands doing pretty flat foils for efficiency.

What is his wet sanding finish
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: supmmmm on December 05, 2022, 07:42:18 PM
Can you get him to go over what gear Johnny Heineken has been ripping on lately- thanks
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on December 05, 2022, 09:21:00 PM
"His thoughts in fixed stabs. No shimming allowed."

NO!

You can shim mike's lab fuses. In fact, they are designed to be shimmed. I keep running into people who don't know this, some of whom own his gear lamenting how they can't shim it, lol.

http://www.mikeslab.com/instructions/ (http://www.mikeslab.com/instructions/)

Look forward to the interview.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Thatspec on December 05, 2022, 11:23:03 PM
So do those foils come with the tin foil hat or do I have to build my own? Who has time for this nonsense?

From those shimming instructions :o

"Ventilation
Ventilation on the strut can happen for a variety of reasons. Most often ventilation occurs due to impurities that can build up on the leading edge, or scratches that can result from hitting things in the water. Water temperature and sea state also play an important role in the separation of laminar flow on the strut.

It is very important to keep the strut very clean, especially the leading edge. Do not touch it with dirty or greasy hands. You can clean the mast periodically with alcohol or household glass cleaner.

If you have persistent ventilation problems, or some surface defects and leading edge scratches as a result of hitting something in the water, please use the following procedure to bring back the leading edge to original performance:

You should do this only if you feel absolutely confident, otherwise you may risk changing the profile of the leading edge. If in doubt please contact us

1. Examine and fill any scratches or impact pits created from hitting something in the water using two part epoxy. Make sure to use only a tiny amount, just enough to fill, leaving very little to sand afterwards. Sand down the cured epoxy just in the repaired area with 600 grit until it is even. Only do a few strokes locally with 600 grit, as you can easily ruin the symmetry of the leading edge.

2. Start by wet sanding the leading edge with 1000 grit sand paper. Make sure your strokes are 45ļ alternating to the direction of the water flow.

3. Steadily work your way up to 1500, then 2000 grit. Be sure to change your water often so as not to contaminate the subsequent grit.

4. Rinse and dry off the strut. When dry use a 3M Trizact pad 3000 grit to buff the strut to a satin sheen.

5. Wipe down with alcohol or glass cleaner and you are ready to go."
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: PonoBill on December 06, 2022, 12:29:25 AM
Yikes. And do you chant while you're doing all this?
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on December 06, 2022, 01:55:27 AM
ÖPeople doing 40+ knots and (kite)racing for their livelihood. You donít have to.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: cnski on December 06, 2022, 06:21:16 AM
Looking forward to both of these interviews as well. Thanks Robert!! Also curious about shimming a ML foil. Seems to me that when you shim the fuse you aren't actually changing the AOA of the stabilizer in relation to the front wing (which is the whole purpose of shimming a stabilizer) and all that is accomplished is changing the angle of the ML bottom section (glider as it's called) in relation to the mast.

1) Please ask Stefano if he would be willing to do a Youtube tutorial on sanding a ML foil. Thanks!!
2) Ask Ken if the are working on a larger D-lab for light wind? Like 7.5m.....
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Hdip on December 06, 2022, 07:49:45 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsN-2T7zMLM&t=1s

That one and the accompanying video on sanding should be similar for filling and sanding a mast. I bought the glazing compound at one time, but never went through with doing it.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: jondrums on December 06, 2022, 10:11:47 AM
Sorry, there is no way to shim the angle of the tail with respect to the front wing.  This is the most fundamental form of tuning.  I have spent plenty of time playing with this, and now understand how incredibly important it is to achieve the feel you want.  I'm sure his foils are great, but you won't catch me on a foil that doesn't allow me to mess around with the tail.  Not just shimming, but also changing to different tails.  I  honestly can't believe racers put up with this when tiny details can be the difference between winning and losing.  I would love to hear Mike's take on this.  I believe it makes great sense for a mass market product to keep things simple.  But high end racing is anything but mass market and simple.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Califoilia on December 06, 2022, 12:46:41 PM
Sorry, there is no way to shim the angle of the tail with respect to the front wing.  This is the most fundamental form of tuning.  I have spent plenty of time playing with this, and now understand how incredibly important it is to achieve the feel you want.  I'm sure his foils are great, but you won't catch me on a foil that doesn't allow me to mess around with the tail.  Not just shimming, but also changing to different tails.  I  honestly can't believe racers put up with this when tiny details can be the difference between winning and losing.  I would love to hear Mike's take on this.  I believe it makes great sense for a mass market product to keep things simple.  But high end racing is anything but mass market and simple.
Yep, and same thing with fuse lengths. It's amazing how noticeable the differences with not only using various stab sizes with the same front wing, but then also how noticeably different the performance is changed using the same stab(s), but with different length fuses. Top that all off with a shim under either the front or back stab screw, and you've got a whole other feel to customize your ride depending the the size of yourself, your board, your style, your wave of the day, and so on.

Hell, we were even shimming the rear screw of a prototype front wing while testing a couple years ago, that made iftgo from "blah" to "yeehaw!". A far cry from when I was pounding on a front and rear wing onto a fuse with a mallet, and then sticking the whole thing into a Tuttle box that I hoped was in the correct spot for the setup, and how I wanted it to ride.  :o ;D

PS. Great interview with Jason and Pono, Robert. Both of those guys (and their 3rd amigo Chad) are a hoot to hang out with....the laughter never stops! Great crew for sure.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: bigmtn on December 06, 2022, 09:17:28 PM
Please ask KW why the leading edge handle on the unit's is so wimpy. Even the new "beefed up" version is wimpy, soft, and flexy. Makes controlling the wing while riding waves or downwinding way way harder. Amazing wings otherwise, but what were/are they thinking with that luff handle?
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Admin on December 07, 2022, 12:51:59 AM
So do those foils come with the tin foil hat or do I have to build my own? Who has time for this nonsense?

From those shimming instructions :o

"Ventilation
Ventilation on the strut can happen for a variety of reasons. Most often ventilation occurs due to impurities that can build up on the leading edge, or scratches that can result from hitting things in the water. Water temperature and sea state also play an important role in the separation of laminar flow on the strut.

It is very important to keep the strut very clean, especially the leading edge. Do not touch it with dirty or greasy hands. You can clean the mast periodically with alcohol or household glass cleaner.

If you have persistent ventilation problems, or some surface defects and leading edge scratches as a result of hitting something in the water, please use the following procedure to bring back the leading edge to original performance:

You should do this only if you feel absolutely confident, otherwise you may risk changing the profile of the leading edge. If in doubt please contact us

1. Examine and fill any scratches or impact pits created from hitting something in the water using two part epoxy. Make sure to use only a tiny amount, just enough to fill, leaving very little to sand afterwards. Sand down the cured epoxy just in the repaired area with 600 grit until it is even. Only do a few strokes locally with 600 grit, as you can easily ruin the symmetry of the leading edge.

2. Start by wet sanding the leading edge with 1000 grit sand paper. Make sure your strokes are 45ļ alternating to the direction of the water flow.

3. Steadily work your way up to 1500, then 2000 grit. Be sure to change your water often so as not to contaminate the subsequent grit.

4. Rinse and dry off the strut. When dry use a 3M Trizact pad 3000 grit to buff the strut to a satin sheen.

5. Wipe down with alcohol or glass cleaner and you are ready to go."

It is great to see a like minded fellow.  This seems like a reasonable after-sesh cleanup routine but deep cleaning instructions should be provided as well. 

Now on the other hand we have brands that use thick cosmetic printing on foils and masts that you can catch a fingernail on.  That is absurd.

I get the no adjustment thing for this application.  Current adjustable tails offer great tune-ability but you can vary incidence by over a degree depending on screw position just due to slop (Mike is looking for accuracy down to 1/10 of a degree). It is equally easy to have the rear wing fastened and not straight.  It usually takes me 2-3 times to get it lined up well and even then it can slip.  This could be greatly improved by ridging and slotting. 
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on December 07, 2022, 12:51:37 PM
Guys you are straight up wrong about ML shimming.

You can change the angle of the tail and not change the front angle. I have done so and measured it and tuned it. Like I said this is the design. Racers use this all the time. I even linked to it. I know itís hard to comprehend, I was shocked too when other people who raced them told me about it.

The fuse has three 1/4Ēx20 bolts connecting it to the mast. Behind that is a smaller bolt. You shim under that bolt and torque it all up. This FLEXES the fuse between the rearmost large bolt and the small bolt you have placed a shim under. This changes the angle of the tail wing relative to the front wing (front wing and front 4/5ths of the fuse do not move).

I have changed the relative angle of the front wing/ tail wing on one mast from 2.5 degrees to 1.7, for example (which is a ton). This did not change the angle of the front wing.

If you want more info PM me or email mike or stephano.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: cnski on December 07, 2022, 02:17:08 PM
That's cool. I love being wrong and shouldn't believe everything I think. I wanna hear more.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Admin on December 07, 2022, 03:24:09 PM
Guys you are straight up wrong about ML shimming.

You can change the angle of the tail and not change the front angle. I have done so and measured it and tuned it. Like I said this is the design. Racers use this all the time. I even linked to it. I know itís hard to comprehend, I was shocked too when other people who raced them told me about it.

The fuse has three 1/4Ēx20 bolts connecting it to the mast. Behind that is a smaller bolt. You shim under that bolt and torque it all up. This FLEXES the fuse between the rearmost large bolt and the small bolt you have placed a shim under. This changes the angle of the tail wing relative to the front wing (front wing and front 4/5ths of the fuse do not move).

I have changed the relative angle of the front wing/ tail wing on one mast from 2.5 degrees to 1.7, for example (which is a ton). This did not change the angle of the front wing.

If you want more info PM me or email mike or stephano.

That sounds very cool.  Do you have an image?
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: JohnnyTsunami on December 07, 2022, 06:12:06 PM
I cut some .01" polyester shim stock to a shape. I settled on 3 shims for this foil. You can see how the fuse is bent in the rear with the shims installed. I'm sure others just use round shapes/washers. This foil is a funky old proptype so it needs shims to work. I haven't shimmed any new ML stuff made for winging yet. I know some extremely fast wingers who never shim ML stuff, others shim and find less lift at high speeds is better with certain front/rear wing combinations. Anyway it's a whole topic of discussion...

I found for this old B3 fuse that with .03" / 1mm of shims the angle relative to the front wing went from 2.5 to 2.0 degrees. Over shimming is bad for the mast. It looks like the whole thing is tilted but it isn't.  ;)

I measure the angle using the delta method, but this isn't necessary for anyone to do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTCyag5N_vE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTCyag5N_vE)

Anyway, sorry to get this thread off track.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Thatspec on December 07, 2022, 11:12:51 PM
OK, but now you've created a 1mm gap between mast and fuse junction just forward of the shim (won't mention the hydrodynamic drag). Those carefully constructed parts designed to fit together like a glove now... don't. There might be a little flex there, you measured it but a gap is inevitable introducing all kinds of flex into that joint and eventually breaking the bolts. Just overall a bad design and the cheapest way to solve the problem. All this for $3.5K ::)

We're all interested in becoming as good at this sport as JH and KA who interestingly enough both use ML foils. Thing is, either of these guys could jump on my setup and make it look exactly the same as their ML. The foil is capable, I am not. Throwing double the money at this will not solve my issues. Did I mention the thing will already be obsolete when it arrives a year after you order it?

Folks are welcome to put their money(and sand their foils) anywhere(way) they like, thanks for making it even more clear that this system is not for me. Enjoy whatever it is you ride :)

Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Admin on December 07, 2022, 11:17:39 PM
Thanks Johnny,
I needed that visual to make sense of what is going on there.  That is a cool way of shimming.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Admin on December 07, 2022, 11:26:03 PM
OK, but now you've created a 1mm gap between mast and fuse junction just forward of the shim (won't mention the hydrodynamic drag).

I believe the gap is behind the shim, forcing the tail section of the fuse down, flattening the rear foil for less negative incidence.  Three forward securing the mast with more torque, one back with less torque flexing in the set shim angle.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: jondrums on December 09, 2022, 11:40:42 AM
I'm really glad I'm wrong and you CAN adjust a tail angle on the Mike's lab!

Still surprised that the tails are so large on that setup. I am addicted to tiny low drag tails
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: cnski on December 13, 2022, 01:38:22 PM
The tail wing seen on most ML foils these days has a span of 320 mm. It's tiny. And ML foils don't cost $3500 as previously stated, thankfully.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on December 15, 2022, 02:07:38 PM
Thank you for all the questions and comments!  We did cover most of the topics in the interview, even though I did not see your questions until after the interview (I guess did not refresh the page and thought there were no questions posted).
Still, the interview has some great information and I'll post it this Saturday.  The interview with Ken Winner was excellent as well and that one will post on 12/24. 

Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: cnski on December 15, 2022, 03:44:29 PM
Hi Robert!! Just saw your latest video "Wing Foil Gear Talk: foils for racing and Jimmy Lewis foil boards". You're gonna love that ML foil. It's actually not the Bullet 6 as you call it in the video. The Bullet 6 is a kite racing foil with a surface area of 520 cm2 or thereabouts. Your foil is a wing specific foil that people refer to as a "600" or "ML 600" with a surface area of 600 cm2. Just an FYI to those who are ordering ML foils be warned of this difference. Unless you are an 18 year old French or Italian kid you probably don't want a 520 cm2 foil for winging.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on December 16, 2022, 05:03:25 PM
Hi Robert!! Just saw your latest video "Wing Foil Gear Talk: foils for racing and Jimmy Lewis foil boards". You're gonna love that ML foil. It's actually not the Bullet 6 as you call it in the video. The Bullet 6 is a kite racing foil with a surface area of 520 cm2 or thereabouts. Your foil is a wing specific foil that people refer to as a "600" or "ML 600" with a surface area of 600 cm2. Just an FYI to those who are ordering ML foils be warned of this difference. Unless you are an 18 year old French or Italian kid you probably don't want a 520 cm2 foil for winging.
Yes, you are right about that, my foil is the ML 600, I was confused by the website.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on December 17, 2022, 10:57:36 AM
I'm loving my new Mike's Lab 600 foil and had a chance to interview the wizards behind these foils:
https://youtu.be/mvDhQQ5ugBM
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: deja vu on December 20, 2022, 07:18:33 AM
I'm really looking for forward to your interview with Ken Winner.  I think I read his book "The Wind is Free" back in the late Seventies -- he didn't mention the cost of the equipment in the book.  I once owned a Bick windsurfer board named after him.  It's great that he's still heavily involved in wind sports.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on December 24, 2022, 11:03:25 AM
Happy Holidays!
If you're interested in wing design and the history of our young sport you will enjoy this interview with Ken Winner:

https://youtu.be/nUn5OXNWluY
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on March 18, 2023, 01:58:47 PM
Today's guest is James Casey, who also has a great podcast, the Casey Catchup. He's an amazing athlete, holds the record for the most kilometers foiled in one day and is the 2019 M2O champion (solo SUP). He's a great coach for anyone who wants to get into downwind foiling and he also invented the sport of winging upwind and then deflating and foiling downwind. We talk about his background, the Molokai to Oahu race to be held on July 30th, 2023, board and foil design, and more.

https://youtu.be/bZjyjEuSiIg
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Fishman on March 18, 2023, 04:29:00 PM

 and he also invented the sport of winging upwind and then deflating and foiling downwind.

https://youtu.be/bZjyjEuSiIg
I'm pretty sure I invented going up wind and deflating (popping) my wing and going downwind. 

Okay I see now, you're saying he was "foiling" downwind. My version is more flopping and floundering downwind.

Loving your interviews, keep up the good work Robert
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: blueplanetsurf on April 22, 2023, 10:40:20 AM
This is a long one but I found it very interesting and entertaining:

Jimmy Lewis interview-surf, windsurf, kite, foil and wingfoil shaper on the Blue Planet Show #26
https://youtu.be/oGML1rBvUr4
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Beasho on May 12, 2023, 02:36:23 PM
This is a long one but I found it very interesting and entertaining:
Jimmy Lewis interview-surf, windsurf, kite, foil and wingfoil shaper on the Blue Planet Show #26

This was great.  Especially after having made some boards.  I listened to the end.

Some takeaways:

2:23:20:  Rockered tail and ROUND edges cause board to STICK to water and allow for nose riding.  Water running over a curved surface pulls it DOWN, it doesnít release it. . .

2:28: 15:  Sharper edge hitting the water BETTER than round, less drag.

2:58:00 Ė Knee dents, not on my decks

"Ever since I have been shaping I have taught anybody, anything about what I do . . I never lost a day of work despite how successful they got.  I donít feel threatened by anyone and happy to share how I glass, how I shape . . . "

I just bought the video by Greg Loehr "Lamination 101."  It is 30 years old but has some good stuff.  Given the last quote above from Jimmy Lewis he might do the world a bit of good if he too were to make a board building video.
Title: Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
Post by: Admin on May 13, 2023, 07:25:27 AM
I love it.  He is talking about his flat bottom boards which are again, "planing" style boards for a lack of a better term.  Both the flat bottom (forward) and the angled chined edges (regardless of degree) drive flow downwards (base) and downwards/outwards on the angled rails.  This is very slow untill the lift he describes is achieved, then the advantage shows.  Displacement designs direct flow around the board, never under or downward/outwards if well done.  This is fastest at slow speeds and gives up advantage as lift is achieved on the planing designs.  As for the tail, if you have directed water under a flat, broad base and then rocker the tail the flow will follow that rocker *while laminar* and just like an inverted foil (stabilzer) will create upwash on release.  But that is both speed and AOA dependent.  What works at small wave longboard speed may not have any aplicability at the speed for your foil sport of choice. 
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