Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: WingSurfPeterT on January 27, 2021, 05:50:51 AM
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Hmmm. my last post became unreadable when I tried to add an image
Thinking about very strong wind winging. Does it work? With or without a foil?
Do the small wings handle the strong forces of high wings.
The signature switch looks interesting for this:
https://www.signatureperformancegear.com/product/switch-board/?v=e4dd286dc7d7
Looking for a way to play on the waves at my local beach when putting up a 5m kite feels to sketch. So winds over avg low to mid 40 gusts to upper 40s maybe occasionally to 50 mph. after that the kite can't really handle it and starts feeling very dangerous with a kite in the sky. Maybe even just a downwinder with a few good whipped in waves would be fun..
Any thoughts from the gorge guys..do you guys foil in conditions when the windsurfers are juiced on sub 3 m^2 sails?
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Absolutely, that's where fat guys rule. My smallest current wing is a 3.5 but when I swap out the quiver this spring I'll have a 2.8. I've turned my 3.5 into a handful of shredded bits several times now (hello, Airtime?) but there's nothing better than 35 gusting to WTF?? with an 860 wing and a 340 tail.
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Chan’s got a 2.5. Dwight wants a 1 meter so yeah, apparently you can do it. Wow.
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It's great fun, but not so much for skinny dudes like you, and you're taking the wrong message with Chan wanting a 1.8. That's the same as a 5.0 for me. Look at the picture in the Ensis thread, now realize that she could walk under my armpit and not bump her head. Miniature human.
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Ensis does need to fill in the gaps. A full meter is too big a gap for wings. An Ensis quiver for me could be 4, 3.5, 3, 2.5. Chan could be 3, 2.5, 2. I am hoping they do that. It is just so much more fun when you are on the right size gear. That opens up high and low wind for everyone.
The hardest part about high wind is getting off your knees in rough water. You can spend a lot of time (and energy) doing kooky stuff getting started in wild water. That gets really hard if your wing is also over the edge.
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Actually, for me getting to my knees is the hard part. There's so much shit going on in high wind that just crawling onto the board is a trick. Once I'm on my knees I'm gold, and on my feet and up on the foil is easy money, actually a lot easier than light wind except that you can move a little too desperately and get blown off the board.
Once you're up, you can do anything you want. Going upwind in 45mph wind is easy to do but hard on the gear. That's how I tore out my 3.5. An apparent wind in the gusts of probably 60+ (45mph wind, 15 mph board speed) is undoubtedly outside the design brief. If I had been sure the rips wouldn't have progressed until I had just a leading edge I would have stayed out--the wing was a lot more stable and felt great. Turning downwind is super easy. The apparent wind drops to something like 20 mph. Of course, the speed is a little nutso and it's interesting trying to keep the foil in the water, but manageable.
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Do the full on sinker boards make it easier in high wind? I haven't tried one yet but would think if I could jam my feet into foot straps and easily get the board low in the water then should be able to get my weight over the sunken board and get moving.
Maybe for high wind we should be riding very thin, but still reasonably wide boards (skimboards with foils?) so only a little motion gets the board up and out of the water
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Not for me. It might be great for skinny people under 35 years old. I tried my 6'0" manta in strong wind. I got up easily on the Oregon side of the river, headed out from the event center. But when I got into the wind and current funnel on the Washington side and fell, I had some serious thoughts that I might be walking back. Trying to control the pitch of a board while the current is going one way, the swell is going the other, and the wind is trying to rip the wing out of your hands is a bit too much. The nose kept disappearing when I tried to get to my knees and just continued on down until the board shot out behind me.
My 6'6" Flying Dutchman, with just 15 more liters, was relatively easy to control and all I had to do was keep everything pointed more or less correctly.
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I was out today in 25-30 mph with some gusts close to 40 according the the windsurf graph with my 4m Duotone and 6'6" 115 liter Fanatic Sky SUP 2000 Fanatic Aero foil. I managed to survive despite some really crazy and unruly wind. I probably could have used a 2m wing. The amazing thing is how calm the ride is once up on foil and it's not the least bit intimidating or frightening once on foil as the ride is so smooth despite the chaos below..the scary thing is the wing thrashing and bucking all over the place. Multiple times the wing was nearly pulled out of my hands, or pulled me off the board or pulled me up breaching the foil. It was a tiring session and exciting. I only lasted about an hour and I know my arms will feel it tomorrow
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That's exactly what I mean, once you're up on the foil it's pretty easy. the only thing that's whacky is the wing, and going small enough will make that great. As most of my gorge friends know, I'm not a big east wind fan, but I used to have a 2.9 M sail for cranking mid-winter east wind windsurfing days. That sail was so fun--just tiny--and never in the way. Flipping it to jibe was just zip, zip. Unfortunately in anything less than 35mph wind it was way too small.
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Was talking to a long-time kiter / wing noob about this today ... I am selling my small kites, as I don't think I'll be chasing 40kt+ kiting any more. For one, I have always found it scary ... even with a 4m kite, the power involved is intense, and if s**t goes wrong it'll be so fast you can't react. Second, 40kt storm days actually mean 30-50kt, and potentially deadly squalls. So I spend my entire session half-scared.
Last couple stormy days, I went out on my 4m wing and it was a gas. A real challenge to hang on and keep it down, but was able to make it work into the mid 40s. The wind swells at that wind strength are amazing. And a super cool thing: at times I was semi out of control, completely dropped the wing and raced straight downwind....at that wind speed, your body becomes a wing, you can stay on foil just from own wind projection. And the kite flies on its own. I now understand better how high wind downwinders work!
Anyways, I am looking for a 2.5m wing. As well, in super high winds....that's the time to try out the sinker board I reckon.
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I would love to see some video of anyone posting here winging in 40+ mph gusts. Then again I love to see video of some of regulars here winging at any wind speed.
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25-30+ mph. 4m Unit, Delta 1480cm proto foil. 28 degres :-/
See attachment below for video:
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I would love to see some video of anyone posting here winging in 40+ mph gusts. Then again I love to see video of some of regulars here winging at any wind speed.
Unless my wife comes and films me, I Won’t have any video. I used to use a go pro while surfing, windsurfing and SUP surfing and found them a Royal PITA. Spent more time fidgeting with the damn camera, that I’d miss waves. The 1st few videos were cool and exciting , but quickly got boring and it wasn’t worth the trouble.
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25-30+ mph. 4m Unit, Delta 1480cm proto foil. 28 degres :-/
See attachment below for video:
Cnski, great! Looks very reasonable. I will go out in flat water gusting to 35 mph and that’s my “don’t be an idiot” limit. No way would I do even close to 35 in the ocean with on shore conditions. Guess I’m just a wimpy chickensh#t..... :P. Riding on the Indian River around Sebastian Inlet (FL) yesterday with gusts to maybe 33ish on my 4m echo. Could have easily been on my 3.3 (and should have been). The ocean side side was big and scary with an unrelenting shore break. No way for me. If the protected side was hitting 40 mph, I’d wouldn’t be out there.
I would love to see some video of anyone posting here winging in 40+ mph gusts. Then again I love to see video of some of regulars here winging at any wind speed.
Unless my wife comes and films me, I Won’t have any video. I used to use a go pro while surfing, windsurfing and SUP surfing and found them a Royal PITA. Spent more time fidgeting with the damn camera, that I’d miss waves. The 1st few videos were cool and exciting , but quickly got boring and it wasn’t worth the trouble.
Understood, although seeing anyone ride in true 40+ Conditions would not be boring at all.
Living on the OBX we do get infrequent fronts that will produce true 40+ mph conditions. I rarely see anyone (kite, windsurf or wing) ever ride in those conditions. 30+, yes, all the time. 40+, just too crazy dangerous except for a very few pro level riders. That’s what I see from my humble vantage point,.....compared to internet chatter.....
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In winter i get a lot of 20-30kt days.
Above 25kt i am in survival mode with a 4m wing,i have to umbrella it so much that it gets difficult to keep some forward drive.
I will probably get a 3m for next season.
My biggest gripe when it gets to 25kt and gusting is that when you fall the wind easyly picks & flips the board and it can land anywwhere, on me or the wing...i started to use a bike helmet on those days and now i always use it.It is warm :).
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My smallest kite was a 3 meter. My smallest wing is a 2.8. Both are too big in winds averaging over 30 MPH. I have no desire to go out in anything stronger.
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Riding on the Indian River around Sebastian Inlet (FL) yesterday with gusts to maybe 33ish on my 4m echo.
Wait, what....you’re in Florida?
Everyone was at Ft Pierce yesterday. Behind the jetty. This was the wind sensor there.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50887382717_d0064a1eff_c.jpg)
You should go there in a N to NE. Super easy fun ocean place. Don’t go there today. They show it a tick trending NW. It’s gusty in that direction.
This was yesterday. Harry is on a 3.0m
https://www.instagram.com/p/CKmuP47rstw/?igshid=1rffpla9mygv5
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OBX Dave, I was also out on Indian River south of Sebastian yesterday ..I was out around 1:30 to 3 The corner offered a little protection from those crazy winds, but once you reached the wind line further outside, it was chaos....that’s my usual spot these days so I hope to see you out there.
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more from yesterday
https://www.instagram.com/p/CKobiB7i4LZ/?igshid=grqcs6ybmx9w
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I'd love to see some wind like that in SoCal--especially if it wasn't part of a storm that skanks up the water. It looked like everyone is on pretty big wings except for the guy with the red wing with the black leading edge that the camera followed. Is that kind of wind unusual enough that small wings are rare? It's not easy for me to tell wing size from pics but everything else looks like 4.0 or greater, and that looks like 3.5 wind even for my fat ass.
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correct Bill.
Winter is small wing season. Many don’t own smaller than 4m.
That Cabrinha was a 3m. I rode Jacky’s 2.5m.
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Unless my wife comes and films me, I Won’t have any video. I used to use a go pro while surfing, windsurfing and SUP surfing and found them a Royal PITA. Spent more time fidgeting with the damn camera, that I’d miss waves. The 1st few videos were cool and exciting , but quickly got boring and it wasn’t worth the trouble.
Likewise...I stopped using the gopro because I found the extreme fisheye flattens the view to an extreme. So that epic day with head high wind swells ... looks about ankle high on the video. And then my memory fades, that video remains, it replaces my memory, and the session no longer seems so rad. Gopro became the buzzkill. [and for proof of the flattening effect, look at Kai Lenny's videos of recent massive wave sessions....the video from shore shows a 50ft wave, the gopro looks kinda head high maybe :P ]
Anyways, 40kts is a pretty clear line for me, in kiting ... it is when the balance of exhiliration/fear tips more solidly to fear. 40kt is where you start getting the smoke on the water effect and the ocean seems alive and angry. To make it work with a 4m wing, the take-off had to be pretty close to straight downwing....floating pretty fast downwind with wing neutral until get the balance, then up and on foil instantly, focusing on not breaching. A smaller than normal foil wing was needed. Gybes also had to be straight downwind ... with a long pause in between to get speed under control before edging the turn. That is where i discovered that I had become a sail, at times I would just keep accelerating straight downwind, even with kite flying free on its leash....lots of huge explosive wipeouts. While riding across the wind, I kept the wing close to straight overhead, with the back hand sheet-in just a light tease to gain enough power, but spilling out maybe 75%. I don't claim to be ripping, it was survival conditions for sure, most of the time I focused on a locked-in maximum upwind angle, to make up for the lost real estate in the long downwind turns. But when I did feel comfortable enough to let it go and ride the swells downwind, it was amazingly effortless, so much power to spare, staying up on foil for long stretches without the wing was easy.
To give some context for the 40kt claim: at one point I had to get to beach, park my gear, so that I could emergency land my kite buddy -- he was out of control and in danger mode way downwind, on a 4m kite. Yikes!
I am hooked -- my original plan was that winging would be a light wind alternative, but I'd kite when the real wind arrived. My plans have now changed, if anything I am keeping my kite gear only for the 10-15kt days when winging is underpowered and "meh". For that, I'd rather be ripping around on my kitefoil. Or just surf foiling if there's waves. Winging is most fun for me when it's 20+
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live cam at ft pierce today
https://www.surfguru.com/ft-pierce-inlet-surf-report
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Having previously had a 3.5M Swing as my smallest, venturing out into 25-35MPH+ wasn't exactly a joyride(only 145 lbs). Now with my 2.2M BRM, it is full on go-cart mode. Sheet in and rip around everywhere. Those smaller sizes can handle gusts crazy well. Much better experience overall and not really unnerving like when you are overpowered in heavy winds as a lightweight.
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Juan, get something smaller than 4 meter, smaller than 3 meter if you can. I bought a 2.8 Naish the first time I exploded my 3.5 but unfortunately, I found that was not a good size for a Naish. It reminded me of having our whackjob Brittany on a leash when he sees another dog. But I will have a 2.8 in my new Strike quiver. I weigh 215 these days, so the 2.8 won't get much use when the wind is less than 30mph, but that's a lot of days in Hood river, and I'm looking forward to it.
It's never the wind speed that makes me stay on shore, it's swell, gust differential, and shiftiness. 45 gusting to 50 in Hood river is rare but great fun. 35 gusting to 50, not so much, though I'd still probably go. But if the gusts include a big shift in wind direction they are really hard to handle, and in Maui, that kind of wind is usually accompanied by an east swell that puckers me up tighter than a hummingbird ass.
The saving grace in all of this is how well small wings depower. Stick it over your head or hold it by the leading edge handle and the power switches right off. That isn't quite so true with bigger wings. I tend to like being overpowered, so I often go on a larger wing than is wise. Especially if I'm doing an upwind/downwind run because I need a bit bigger for the downwind leg. If you're on a 5.0 in 35 gusting to 45 the depowered positions while you're going upwind and gaining some effective wind speed then the difference between powered and depowered can be disappointing.
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Here is a great shot (not mine) of Chris Anderson in some 40 + mph wind on a 2.8 Swing. It is pretty much survival mode. Mid 40 mph range it starts blowing smoke and at 50 mph it is solid white.
30 MPH average wind with higher gusts is a pretty common forecast in the Gorge. You can get gusts to 40 but moments to collect yourself and everyone goes out. That is strong wind. It is manageable in the protected and flat areas on the right sized wing, super challenging in the swell and can be very fun if the wind has a very tight range and the swell is smooth (out east in particular). The bigger the range the harder it gets. 30 to 35 happens sometimes and it is magic. You will congratulate yourself on your excellence, compliment your friends on their performances and buy drinks at the pub. 18 to 42 sucks balls. You will feel badly about yourself, and will consider selling your gear.
To get true 40 sustained averages certainly happens but it is much less frequent and sustained 50 is super rare on westerlies. You might get get the shot but realistically there is a lot of catastrophe that goes along with it. :)
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I was out yesterday with wind regularly gusting 35 knots, blowing cross shore (per harbour weather station which was directly upwind). I was on my 4m Pulse and while top end, was still fun. I'm light, at 65kg. My comments on maxed winging are:
- wing stability is massively important. I initially went out and immediately felt the wing was not as controlled as it normal, despite me putting in my normal pressure. Went in, put in 6-7 more pumps and handling was back to normal. That's a pretty fine line between awful and normal. The Pulse has full battens and I use a harness, both of which help stability too, all of which mean I can control how the wing is delivering it's power.
- water conditions are massively important. The water in the deep water shipping channel got significantly bigger chop than closer to the shore, tide running straight upwind. I ride a 100cm mast and the chop was so big and steep that it took quite a bit of focus keeping the foil in the water and not hitting the wave crests with the board. The chop was creating a lot of movement in the foil which meant doing anything but going in a straight line is awkward and gybes had to be timed to get a flatter patch or in time with the chop.
- how you wing is massively important. When it's this windy, I'm in upwind downwind fun mode, meaning the I can feather up into the wind in the gusts upwind, and can umbrella / flag surfing downwind. Going cross wind would be harder work, less controlled and less fun.
- using a small foil is easier. A big foil in that chop just bounces you around and also doesn't accelerate as quickly or smoothly when turning downwind to gybe, and isn't as responsive to the inevitable corrections mid gybe.
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I think I forget how intimidating high wind is the first time--or the first session after a layoff. When I got back from Maui last year (or was that five years ago--seems like forever) my first session was a 35 to WTF day. It didn't go well. I could get up in the swell shadow of the event center, and fly across with no problem, but on the Washington side I couldn't. I winged across on my knees--on the foil. It was really fun but not what I expected to do. By the middle of the summer that would have been no big deal at all. there are probably a few dozen tricks that make their way into the mental grab bag that make it easier.
I've been doing high wind sports in the Gorge since the 80's. When I do the math that's an improbable 40 years. I'm used to a lot of wind. We don't just live here for the fruit.
A long mast is a huge plus. I've been on the 90cm aluminum since Admin goaded me into it. Besides the wonderful swoopy feel, it also makes nutty swell much easier. If you're up reasonably high running over some monster is fairly smooth. You have to push down the backside, but that's kind of automatic anyway.
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Juan, get something smaller than 4 meter, smaller than 3 meter if you can. I bought a 2.8 Naish the first time I
After my last few storm sessions, I am definitely in the hunt. Though TBH I have been surprised/stoked how well my 4m has fared in way too much wind for it. Challenging but doable.
I almost pulled the trigger on a 3m Hot Wings used from Maui that I saw on craigslist. But if I am into the upper end used market or new prices, I am waiting to see what the Ocean Rodeo wings look like. Local company. And the allula material may be a game changer for the frame, thinner chambers with more strength. However, if the kites are an indicator, they will be priced accordingly too!
There's another point about high wind winging....it is much harder on the gear. Things move faster and there's a lot more opportunity for pointy foils to connect with soft fabrics. Not to mention foils and boards meeting ground....the shorebreak can get intense, and man it sucks trying to get in managing board, foil, and wing....when it hits the fan, at least one gets sacrificed. Last 2 sessions I broke a wing leash and a foil wingtip. :-X Flat water summer thermals this ain't. Anyways....point is....this sport isn't like kiting, where you might baby your gear and sell it used for 75% what you paid. Seems like these wings are likely to be disposable, when I am done with them, they may be mostly done! So gear will need refreshing sooner perhaps.
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I almost pulled the trigger on a 3m Hot Wings used from Maui that I saw on craigslist. But if I am into the upper end used market or new prices, I am waiting to see what the Ocean Rodeo wings look like. Local company. And the allula material may be a game changer for the frame, thinner chambers with more strength. However, if the kites are an indicator, they will be priced accordingly too!
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I'm excited to see what the Glide (OR's Aluula wing) is like too but more for what it can do for big wings rather than the smaller ones. Not that I don't think the smaller wings will benefit but more because it's the larger ones will get the biggest improvement. Apparently I'm 3rd on the UK waiting list - only 29 days to release now!
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Seems like these wings are likely to be disposable, when I am done with them, they may be mostly done! So gear will need refreshing sooner perhaps.
Sad but true. When I call my wing quiver the hobo fleet I'm not just referencing Admin's sense of humor. I don't think the 6.0 has any patches, but all the rest have been, and the 4.2 and 3.5 have visited Airtime in HR and the nice kite repair lady up in Haile Maile far too many times.
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I have this thing I use when the wind is over 30. You guys gotta try it.
It’s called Netflix.
Pono I call dibs on that 3.5 when you upgrade. It’ll get used 2x a year here. It’ll last me years lol.
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Riding on the Indian River around Sebastian Inlet (FL) yesterday with gusts to maybe 33ish on my 4m echo.
Wait, what....you’re in Florida?
Everyone was at Ft Pierce yesterday. Behind the jetty. This was the wind sensor there.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50887382717_d0064a1eff_c.jpg)
You should go there in a N to NE. Super easy fun ocean place. Don’t go there today. They show it a tick trending NW. It’s gusty in that direction.
This was yesterday. Harry is on a 3.0m
https://www.instagram.com/p/CKmuP47rstw/?igshid=1rffpla9mygv5
Great! I really have no clue about riding spots down here. We don’t have decent jetties to work with in the OBX so dealing with shore break is the only choice. That looks like a piece of cake for this ole whimp. Staying at Long Point Park north of Sebastian Inlet (in the new camper) and just figuring out riding spots now. Will try and hook up with Caribsurf today just south of Sebastian Inlet for some west wind River riding.
So nice riding without gloves, hood and booties! This was a session on the 29th (?) with a 5m at the Sebastian Inlet SP River side. Shaking off the rust of almost no riding since mid Nov! It’s been a tough winter (quick Covid stint, parent with failing health)
https://youtu.be/5_H4kg5LjJI
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Nice video Dave...a little different than our conditions yesterday.
Great foiling with you on the river. I saw the wind graph and there were gusts over 35+ mph while we were out there! It sure felt like it to me. I was in survival mode, but you were relaxed and killing it. Hope to be as proficient a foiler as you next season.