Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Caribsurf on December 29, 2020, 12:52:52 PM
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Ok so with my windsurfing background, I have no problem riding switch stance in either direction on my wing foil board. My issue has been switching stance during the gybe. I make 90% of my gybes, however that’s because I drop off foil and just swing around and then switch stance and get back on foil. I just cant seem to switch stance while on foil without a spectacular crash. Pissing me off to no end...
I have tried many times to ride backside after the gybe and made many gybes on foil that way, but could not keep on foil once I started riding backside or heel slide or whatever you kiters call it.
When is the best time to switch stance during the gybe? Seen a few different methods on YouTube, none of which have been successful to date...any pointers appreciated.
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Hi Caribsurf - like you I swap feet on each tack so spend most time riding heelside - heels pointing upwind. I think most people who do this swap feet after the gybe to begin with, but the key thing really is to get comfortable riding toeside - toes pointing upwind, with upper body twisted. This means that when you exit the gybe, you can continue for a little while without swapping feet so you're in no rush to get the foot swap done, and only do so when you're ready.
It's annoying to learn riding toeside if you're not used to it, as you feel like you're taking 3 steps back in progression but it's worth the time investment.
In doing the foot swap, I found it easier to hold the wing above my head and use it to give vertical lift to support your body weight while you change feet. Also (to state the obvious) keep your feet close to the centerline. I push down with my front foot, and as the board pops up again, meet it with my new front foot, and immediately put the new back foot back.
It took me quite a while to get really comfortable swapping feet, and it still remains the area of most likely failure if I do drop a gybe...
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Ok so with my windsurfing background, I have no problem riding switch stance in either direction on my wing foil board. My issue has been switching stance during the gybe. I make 90% of my gybes, however that’s because I drop off foil and just swing around and then switch stance and get back on foil. I just cant seem to switch stance while on foil without a spectacular crash. Pissing me off to no end...
I have tried many times to ride backside after the gybe and made many gybes on foil that way, but could not keep on foil once I started riding backside or heel slide or whatever you kiters call it.
When is the best time to switch stance during the gybe? Seen a few different methods on YouTube, none of which have been successful to date...any pointers appreciated.
The easiest way to learn this is to separate the foot switch from the gybe itself. So if regular (left foot forward is strong stance), gybe without switching feet (so go from heelside to toeside), get stable, then switch feet (to heelside, right foot forward). If riding right foot forward, switch feet first (to toeside, left foot forward), get stable, then gybe and ride away heelside, left foot forward. In other words, if riding strong foot forward, gybe first then switch feet. If riding weak foot forward, switch feet first, then gybe. Either way, separate the foot switch from the gybe. Ignore the people who tell you that for a true gybe you have to do both at the same time.
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Some great videos by JB from Naish Hawaii that he has been hiding.
Heel to Toe. Switching feet before jybe/gybe/jibe. Watch him skootch his feet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pRjEsf2BHY
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Another version. Looks like the key is keeping the feet tight and together. Then swapping. I also tend to fall off the foil when switching (aka almost 100% of the time). Maybe more subtle dance moves will make this possible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT8Eu85PLkI
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I call this "crack-head" stance. When starting like this, usually after I gybe and don't switch my feet I can actually pull this move off. Simply because there is no foot movement. I managed a few of these on Christmas day in Northern California.
Of course the penalty for failure was much higher because the air was 50 degrees and the water was also 50 degrees. Very unpleasant to fall in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taPeJjhIOv4
PS: Tracks looked like this. Left to Right goofy foot. We need to start sharing more Tracks. This is Dawn Patrol on the iWatch. Notice almost every line is straight. I am very proud to be able to go straight with authority :)
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I am thrilled to hear other people are having trouble with this, I think it's a bazillion years of windsurfing engraved somewhere in my noggin that I can't shake. I come off foil almost every time, because my head makes me do an automatic windsurfing change, which doesn't work on foil. Or at least it doesn't for me. I'm working on stepping back and staying put during the jibe and switching afterward. I'm getting there, but after all this time I should be doing foiling jibes. Oddly enough, I can do a foiling tack (about 60 percent), which feels much goofier, but somehow it works.
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Aw man, you wind guys make a man learn a lot of new stuff. I’m just about to get comfortable on foil switch and now I gotta learn toe side too? 😉
I was hoping to get to plateau a bit by next week. It seems the Apollo-level splash downs will continue over here. But the “gybe on your strong side” advice makes a lot of sense.
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I find it fascinating hearing how other people tackle the same problem. I couldn't consider swapping feet before gybing when I was learning as it involves a foot swap to my much weaker toe side stance. Swapping after the gybe meant swapping into my stronger heelside stance which feels more natural and is much easier to correct if I didn't get the foot placement right first time.
To me as an ex windsurfer, riding toeside and the foot swap into toeside are two separate skills that needed real attention, so you have to learn both before doing a toeside gybe. Perhaps kiters are more able in heelside / toeside fluidity, whereas windsurfer don't suffer from riding switch (I didn't) but find toeside riding totally alien.
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....... I couldn't consider swapping feet before gybing when I was learning as it involves a foot swap to my much weaker toe side stance. ..........
IMO one should never ride toeside with weak foot forward. My advice to op was to switch feet before the gybe is if you are riding with your weak foot forward......switch feet first so that you are now strong foot forward (toeside), then gybe.
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....... I couldn't consider swapping feet before gybing when I was learning as it involves a foot swap to my much weaker toe side stance. ..........
IMO one should never ride toeside with weak foot forward. My advice to op was to switch feet before the gybe is if you are riding with your weak foot forward......switch feet first so that you are now strong foot forward (toeside), then gybe.
Sure, but my point was all of my toeside riding was weak, so swapping into a weaker position before the gybe would have required more skills to master so wasn't something that would have helped me learn to gybe and switch feet more quickly.
Different strokes, and all that...
For what it's worth, I am forcing myself to master weak foot forward toeside riding. It's just too useful a skill if you want to be equal (as possible) on both sides...
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....... I couldn't consider swapping feet before gybing when I was learning as it involves a foot swap to my much weaker toe side stance. ..........
IMO one should never ride toeside with weak foot forward. My advice to op was to switch feet before the gybe is if you are riding with your weak foot forward......switch feet first so that you are now strong foot forward (toeside), then gybe.
What he said!
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....... I couldn't consider swapping feet before gybing when I was learning as it involves a foot swap to my much weaker toe side stance. ..........
IMO one should never ride toeside with weak foot forward. My advice to op was to switch feet before the gybe is if you are riding with your weak foot forward......switch feet first so that you are now strong foot forward (toeside), then gybe.
What he said!
Just our of interest, are you an ex kiter?
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Last summer my friend (pro level) said he was now winging toe side, weak/wrong foot forward.
Then Jacky started doing it.
That forced me to get comfortable doing it. Now it’s no big deal. Learn every version, it helps.
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The easiest way to learn this is to separate the foot switch from the gybe itself. So if regular (left foot forward is strong stance), gybe without switching feet (so go from heelside to toeside), get stable, then switch feet (to heelside, right foot forward). If riding right foot forward, switch feet first (to toeside, left foot forward), get stable, then gybe and ride away heelside, left foot forward. In other words, if riding strong foot forward, gybe first then switch feet. If riding weak foot forward, switch feet first, then gybe. Either way, separate the foot switch from the gybe. Ignore the people who tell you that for a true gybe you have to do both at the same time.
I do exactly as Phils says.
I am a natural footer so do all my gybes in my natural stance i.e. left foot forward,
e.g. when on a Port tack, I gybe, ride out toeside (twisted stance/left foot forward) then when comfortable switch feet (right foot forward/goofy foot) then when I am about ready to gybe again I switch back to left foot forward (toeside, twisted stance) gybe then come out riding heelside natural stance.
Yep it was difficult at first but now I make 95% percent of foot changes and know it will soon be 99%.
I learnt to foil under a kite but never switched feet when kiting (it is easy to go upwind toeside)
I learnt the foot swap with a wing first but now do it kiting as well.
It becomes easy fairly quickly after you have done your first few.
Although this video is about switching stance when kiting the same technique works well winging and is what helped me out heaps.
https://youtu.be/vSdb-0GQ_dc
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Thanks for the insightful and helpful suggestions and instructional videos guys..really good stuff.
Last week the winds were nuking so gybes were a little intimidating and the crashes high speed.
Today the winds were lighter and I was able to complete a few smooth gybes completely on foil initiating on my strong side (goofy foot ) and finishing toe side/backside. Felt great however short lived as each time I had a nice splash down and then quickly switched stance and got back up on foil. I must be like a bull in a China shop when it comes to moving my feet on the deck on foil..the smallest movement has BIG results most of which are not good. Still I think I broke through today and can see the light of riding out of a gybe back side...
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Long time proficient windsurfer and reasonable strapless surfboard kiter here and am nearing the 20 session mark winging. The flying foot switch has been by far the trickiest skill to get for me and has been humbling! I know it'll come but I've taken a couple of falls on the foil that make me too tentative when switching feet while flying. Looking forward to getting past this part of the learning curve! I'm comfortable surfing the swell with the wing flagged out even on my weak side, but messing up the foot switch in transition feels so kooky. My windsurfing reflexes stepping in at inopportune times seem a big part of my failing. Great reading the tips offered here.
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Agreed, thx guys.
Caribe, I’m right where you are. When I’m not too “hot” I can jibe to toe side but can’t get the wing and my body to work yet.
And yeah, fast falls on the wing ding are hairy-er than I expected.
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....... I couldn't consider swapping feet before gybing when I was learning as it involves a foot swap to my much weaker toe side stance. ..........
IMO one should never ride toeside with weak foot forward. My advice to op was to switch feet before the gybe is if you are riding with your weak foot forward......switch feet first so that you are now strong foot forward (toeside), then gybe.
What he said!
Just our of interest, are you an ex kiter?
I did kite for about 10 years which is why I find toeside pretty easy. Having said that most of my winging buddies never kited and still gybe the way Phils described above
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I can switch back and forth while just sailing along, but when I jibe I get all fucked up and land. No idea why. I see guys that can go forever depowered, playing with the wing, but I come down in five seconds. Too fat??
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I can switch back and forth while just sailing along, but when I jibe I get all fucked up and land. No idea why. I see guys that can go forever depowered, playing with the wing, but I come down in five seconds. Too fat??
Are you crashing down, which would be a foil control issue or falling from the sky, which would be a too slow speed / wing power issue?
Edit - one tip that helped me when I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong in a transition is to focus on looking where I'm going rather than on what I'm doing, for a while. That helps get the board tracking correctly and acts as a starting point for figuring out what else needs to change to get things right.
If you're not steering correctly then chances are you're not giving yourself the chance to make the rest of the transition as easy as possible.
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I can switch back and forth while just sailing along, but when I jibe I get all fucked up and land. No idea why. I see guys that can go forever depowered, playing with the wing, but I come down in five seconds. Too fat??
Are you crashing down, which would be a foil control issue or falling from the sky, which would be a too slow speed / wing power issue?
Edit - one tip that helped me when I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong in a transition is to focus on looking where I'm going rather than on what I'm doing, for a while. That helps get the board tracking correctly and acts as a starting point for figuring out what else needs to change to get things right.
If you're not steering correctly then chances are you're not giving yourself the chance to make the rest of the transition as easy as possible.
Good point...one thing I started doing is gybing around something ..a buoy, pole, moored boat . I find when I gybe around something i have a reference point and I am more successful . When gybing in open ocean, I lose my point of reference and usually don’t complete the gybe as easily.
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I shouldn't have typed "crashing", I just mean I come down in mid jibe.
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Pono- You're definitely not too fat. I probably weigh 245-250 right now and have zero issues foiling through jibes on the 1150, even with a hooded 5/4 suit/gloves/booties. If I'm foiling I'm jibing on the 1150. There must something else going on? Have someone take some video!! My goal is to be able to switch my feet both before and after the jibe on both tacks.
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Hooray, I figured out how to make my gybes up on foil...it’s all about how high out of the water you are riding. Because I was afraid of crashing, I would ride low to the water, but that’s exactly why I’d come off foil during my gybe. Staying high on the foil gives you much more time to make the turn before coming down and pumping helps a lot too. Something so simple but makes such a big difference , I am making most of my gybes now and even managing riding backside before switching stance.. it’s weird but it’s like it clicked all of a sudden, but the key was staying high on the foil!!
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Hooray, I figured out how to make my gybes up on foil...it’s all about how high out of the water you are riding. Because I was afraid of crashing, I would ride low to the water, but that’s exactly why I’d come off foil during my gybe. Staying high on the foil gives you much more time to make the turn before coming down and pumping helps a lot too. Something so simple but makes such a big difference , I am making most of my gybes now and even managing riding backside before switching stance.. it’s weird but it’s like it clicked all of a sudden, but the key was staying high on the foil!!
Congrats Carib! What an accomplishment.