Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: Evan Lloyd on November 23, 2020, 03:16:57 PM
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I'm old enough to remember the backlash that SUP, and more recently foiling, has had in the surf community. What's the vibe in CA or HI? The whole point is to get away from crowds, but are people getting barked at on the beach. I'll never forget the constant heckling we would get at 41st street in Santa Cruz just trying to get down the stairs with an SUP and paddle. "Where you going with that thing - kook?" Fond memories.
Just curious as I have an eFoil on the way and I want to be super careful and respectful of the community. Especially with an AZ license plate lol.
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You never get closer enough to a surf break to hear comments.
If you do surf you can stay way outside, you never ride inside. If you are near a break you're typically not launching anywhere near where a surfer would paddle out. My buddies who have them never launch at a break. Surfing is fine on those spots that break away offshore or that never break. A friend was towing his son into a spot that literally wasn't breaking at all. Just rollers. Who's mad at that?
The vibe isn't bad but that may be because no one can hassle you in the lot if you're never in the lot. Sheriff's and lifeguards are your concern now. You own a boat, not a surfboard. A big concern is which marinas will throw you out or fine you. (you normally won't be able to get on foil inside.)
But they are super fun and why would you ever get near a surfer, right?
But no, don't efoil any spot you know in LA or if you do launch down the road a bit and stay way outside. ;)
It's so fun on flat water I can't see why you'd brave the drive except to surf your foil. Hope to see you while you're here and I'll hook you up with some guys who can advise where and how.
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There is a guy where I foil who is out there with an e-foil riding rollers on the outside before anyone can catch them. He launches pretty well clear of anyone and just paddles his board out like anyone else until he is outside the line up. He isn't taking anything someone else could so no one really cares past the novelty of it. This is Oahu though, California is a different beast entirely.
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My brother got vibes and told foils don’t belong in the lineup on an empty el Porto day earlier. Normal foil though. Not efoil.
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I was in south San Diego at a known spot with my foil SUP. I got soooo much sh!t between my car and the water. It’s one of those spots with a view and a stair case. Anyway it made 40 year olds Evan smile. 25 year old Evan would have been posted. Lol. Still waaaay less flack then when I started SUPing.
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Hawaii:
(http://)
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That’s pretty handy flyer. Off topic but can you fly with these? I have a one wheel and a boosted board. I’ve flown with both but airlines are pretty leery of the battery.
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I cannot imagine a pack that big flying.
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Not really a fan. Don’t see the need for them if you can foil waves with your own power. Maybe to cruise the shoulders on the outer reefs but not my thing. Some people think they will tow people in on them but a jet ski seems like a better option.IMHO I have heard of some EFOIL riders at makena landing riding back and forth. Owners or rentals? I don’t know but many of us who Downwind foil have concerns that some snorkeler will be injured or worse and ruin it for the rest of us who Foil. We all agree to come down off foil well before the beach to keep it safe for everyone. My 2c.
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I respect your position 808. Valid points for sure. For someone like me who moved away from the ocean, this will fill the void I have in the 4-6 weeks I go in between surf sessions. My wife saw the price tag and said, “if it makes you less grumpy when you can’t surf, then buy two of them.” So I’m super exited about the eFoil. But like anything in the surf, you have to approach it with respect and safety.
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I was super sour on eFoils until I talked with a local guy who bought one. He has a collapsible prop and was out in big stuff in Montara, Northern California. The key was to realize that when you get the new toy it will work where others will not.
Anyone who suggests they are going to buzz the lineup doesn't understand this. When I started SUP foiling it was to ride the 10ft @ 10 second energy in and around Mavericks. No one was riding this. There are other nearby breaks that are better surfing spots but there are typically 5 or 10 guys at those spots. I can go to my own spot and catch waves 100% alone (I measure this and I am 100% alone ~ 50% of the time).
The foil is not optimized for steep, hollow down the line riding. There are so few of these types of spots that they have names and parking. The other 99.999% of the ocean can be yours. Have at it.
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In my opinion, the biggest benefit of new toys, including SUP, is that you can use them at the places other surfers can't or don't, and my general rule is to take full advantage of that. In Maui I frequently violated that rule since SUP surfing at Kahana is simply so good, but even there I tried to find places that worked for me that weren't popular--which generally meant moving as far to surfer's right as the waves permit. Sometimes that just attracts other surfers though, once they see you getting waves, like surfing at Ho'okipa at Lanes--which I swear you'd rarely see a surfer even on crowded days until the SUP surfers started using it.
It's not some sort of moral position for me, I just don't like surfing with people who aren't my friends.
Foiling is 10x better for that than SUP. I'm never within 20 yards of a surfer--more like 100--even at SanO. the closest I get to anyone is the sit-down guys because they're looking for the same kind of waves we are and are relegated to the same stretch of crap surf--which is perfect.
I figure eFoils are 10x better than surf foiling for the same reason. No possible reason to be in a lineup. About the same level of solipsism that wingfoils offer. Wingfoiling has to be the perfect sport for loners like me. I'll get one sooner or later-probably later, though this year is a great excuse for getting one. As I'm typing this I'm wondering "what the fuck was I thinking?? I'm in the fucking desert, 2.5 hours from the beach. There are lakes. Why didn't I buy an efoil?"
What a moron. We move to Solano Beach in a week, so it probably doesn't make sense now, but I think my timeframe just jumped way ahead.
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Which efoil did you buy Evan
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You guys get it. We have an efoil posse here now and while I don't own one I get offered rides and we are now doing "tow days" where we are learning to tow each other into the shittiest waves you can imagine.
Your assumptions are true, you can foil a knee high unbreaking wave. You just can't paddle in.
Evan, you're going to have a ball.
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Oh, and Pono, I can get you test rides on Waydoo, Lift, and Flyte while you're in SD.
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Oh, and Pono, I can get you test rides on Waydoo, Lift, and Flyte while you're in SD.
Cool. How and when. Have truck, will drive.
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Losangelesfoilclub has contacts. 😀
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Heading to SBJ tmrw to pick up my Waydoo Patroller from a guy who used his twice, and decided he's just gonna stick to surf foiling.
Stoked to say the least, since I'm not only getting a good deal on it, but also don't have to wait till the end of December, beginning of January until their next container comes in, as was going to be the case to get the longer 31" mast I was looking for that they're currently sold out of.
EDIT: Pono, I'll be down at SanO Thursday (if I can sneak out on turkey day) and Friday with it if you want to give it a try...you should have my cell# to text to confirm.
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Heading to SBJ tmrw to pick up my Waydoo Patroller from a guy who used his twice, and decided he's just gonna stick to surf foiling.
Stoked to say the least, since I'm not only getting a good deal on it, but also don't have to wait till the end of December, beginning of January until their next container comes in, as was going to be the case to get the longer 31" mast I was looking for that they're currently sold out of.
EDIT: Pono, I'll be down at SanO Thursday (if I can sneak out on turkey day) and Friday with it if you want to give it a try...you should have my cell# to text to confirm.
Cool, I'll plan on Friday for sure and probably try to come Thursday as well.
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Cowboy or Sano--
What's your verdict on the Waydoo? This thread got me curious. I probably wouldn't have dropped $10K for a Lift, but the price on the Waydoo puts it in my ballpark of stupid. Heavier rider (~230) so I'm thinking the Explorer. While the video review I saw of it from Amsterdam looks good, I've had a couple Kickstarter experiences that make me gun shy.
Tnx,
RG
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Here’s a thread you might want to read through. As with any long thread on a message board people start arguing near the end of it. But it highlights the bad of the waydoo with some people trying to point out most of the unit’s are fine.
I know of two guys out here personally who have and like the waydoos and have no issues with them.
https://foil.zone/t/waydoo-kickstarter-gathered-268k-is-4k-commercial-efoil-realistic/8209/334
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Bulky, I rode one Saturday and it was a blast. Love the throttle. We have like 3-4 of them in our little crew and so far everyone seems pleased.
Best way to learn to foil bar none. Getting some rides from my buddies has moved my foiling ahead a ton in just a few weeks. I still struggle with catching but riding is way easier and I'm glad I got to practice turns on an efoil.
I can see people who don't want one buying one to learn on for 2-3 months and then selling it. The used market will be prime for that.
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So, which of the E-Foils have the option to customize the foil wing and tail? That's so incredibly critical to the experience in prone/SUP/wing - a different front wing and/or tail totally changes the character of the ride. Can any of them take an Axis, GoFoil, or Signature wing?
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Lift you can use all their wings. As far as the other's some have small and big wing options.
The DIY guys are using AXIS a lot for the stiff 19mm mast and vast assortment of wings.
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Plus one for the Waydoo - received mine in October (early Kickstarter) and have been using it on my lake - Brrr - its a blast! Neighbor has a Lyft and we have swapped around and I have to say, I prefer my Waydoo - not only for the <$$ but it uses "gears" on the controller that make it much easier to launch - in my opinion and the plug and play battery with zero cable connections is also a nice feature. Also the big wing is up and flying at much slower speeds and very stable. Also have the smaller wing which is much more agile. No question that the Lyft is higher quality - carbon board etc. but I'm quite impressed with the Waydoo so far. There have been teething problems - no argument there - but the company is rapidly improving their customer interaction and warranty process - I have had to get a replacement controller already after my first one drowned. Recommend full body armor when learning - the crashes are spectacular!
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Yes on the crashes part. My neck is still stiff from the many faceplants. If I were on Maui I'd have to have Shantelle Pierce on standby to pound me back into something resembling flexibility. In the age of COVID, I'm just living with it and using my mirrors to merge into California traffic--a somewhat suicidal situation.
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I received my Waydoo Flyer on Friday. It appears to be the short mast, big wing version with the foam board. I was able to ride it 3 times in the surf. I also let 3 people try it who had never foiled. All three got up on foil and some flew further than others, but they all enjoyed it and wanted to try it again. (I’m already thinking about getting another battery).
For myself, I got up immediately but soon learned there is an easy way and a hard way to get up on foil. Hard way: set the remote to your foiling speed and attempt to get up at that speed. East way: set the remote to level 5-7, stand up and plane, then increase speed until the board releases from the water.
Catching waves is super fun. You feel the speed increase as the foil catches the wave’s energy. I quickly learned that the wave face changes the angle of the propeller and sends the nose downward. It was easy to adjust but took a few wipeouts to realize what was happening. My efoil does not have a collapsing prop so I’m unable to fully cut the power when foiling. So it doesn’t feel exactly like surfing because you don’t feel the increase/decrease of speed as you work your way through the wave’s face. It’s that feeling of dancing with the wave that is lost when you have an engine, so I don’t expect to quit sup foiling anytime soon.
The biggest surprise and my #1 complaint is the weight of the rig. I knew what it weighed before I bought it but you don’t appreciate the weight until you have to carry it from the car to the water. Getting in and out of the surf takes patients and a little courage. Basically the weight makes everything tricky. From setup, transportation, cleanup and putting it back in the car - It’s a lot to manage carefully. The one time the weight disappears is in the water. The rig does not feel cumbersome when flying but turning is definitely more drawn out versus high and tight.
I’m going to keep playing with it, but those are my first impressions.
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That was my beef with the LYFT - I could not control the trigger in a smooth way while moving from knees to feet. I also set the speed (gear) at a lower number - keep the trigger fully pulled in - move from knees to standing and then adjust the "gears" up until flying....makes it much easier. They are heavy beasts for sure and ungainly until you get them moving in the water. Personally, I would be happy with a smaller battery to cut the weight a bit as I'm usually out for a much shorter session than actual capacity would allow.
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Just as a contrast to that battery statement. This guy was out for a three battery session the other day. 😀
https://www.instagram.com/p/CI1KJXDDPsN/?igshid=1kh7hnavka1pw
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Happy Holidays Friends. I took my new Waydoo efoil out on the lake today. It was chili but totally worth it. Question: I seem to loose a little power once my batter dips below 50%. Is that normal? I have a bunch of electric skateboards, scooters, and a one wheel. Those toys definitely lose power once the battery gets low. Just wanted to make sure it was a common occurrence and not something unique to my rig.
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Sure. As lithium batteries discharge the voltage drops, so the power available drops. It's not huge--depending on chemistry the voltage might be 4.2V at full charge and 3.9V at full discharge, but it's not constant. Multiply that by the series configuration and it's a bigger deal. For a 12s, nominal 48V battery that's 50.4V at full charge and 46.8V at discharge. From a power standpoint if that's at a constant 50 amp discharge (not likely) that's 2520 watts (3.4hp) at full charge and 2350 watts (3.1hp) at full discharge. Not huge, but it makes a difference, and the actual current discharge rate drops with the voltage droop so it's even bigger.
More sophisticated control systems compensate for it, but that's a lot to expect from V0.9 toys.
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Weight is def an issue. After having one to use for a couple of weeks I have to say that if I didn’t live inland or didn’t have a dock to keep the efoil on I probably wouldn’t want to own one long term.
Transport, setup, in and out of a beach break all contribute to this. There’s also the weird disconnect from being powered that is different from surfing and even winging. There’s something to the natural energy.
But they should replace all jet skis imho. And they are better than not being in the water. I’m interested to see how towing and distance work to make them more interesting and the social element (like motorcycles) is compelling. way more fun in a group. I’m sure it’ll grow on me as I get more comfortable as well.
Waydoo guys, have you felt them more prone to porpoise? I had an issue with that the one time I rode one. Wondering if it was small wing. Also might’ve been me. I’m no master foiler. Need to try that one again.
Evan, learn to tow your buddies. That’s super fun and makes more foilers.
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Transport, setup, in and out of a beach break all contribute to this. There’s also the weird disconnect from being powered that is different from surfing and even winging. There’s something to the natural energy.
^^^ This ^^^
I've had my Waydoo for 3 weeks now, and all my buddies can't understand why it's still not got it wet. But the above is exactly why I've not been in any hurry to do so. I love surf foiling, and there's not been a day where it's been flat w/o any waves for me to jump on when I'm at the beach...and I don't see anytime in the near future that that'll change much at all.
Waydoo guys, have you felt them more prone to porpoise? I had an issue with that the one time I rode one. Wondering if it was small wing. Also might’ve been me. I’m no master foiler. Need to try that one again.
Think it might be you, because the one time I rode my buddy's Waydoo (w/ small wing) I didn't notice that at all. But I also outweigh you by probably 40+ lbs...so throw a 40 lb backpack on your next time out with it, and see if that helps. ;) ;D
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I expect my ridiculously heavy efoil will wind up being 90 percent tow vehicle, but not with me on it--with me behind it. I set up a tow rope with a 4-foot section of PVC pipe attached to the efoil to allow the rider behind it to steer. I can actually turn it by just offsetting my arms. I tried it yesterday and it's very cool. All I had to do was take the foil off the mast and attach the PVC "tiller" and tow rope. the speed control for the takuma/avante actually has about a 50-yard range, so no issues there.
Most of the weight of this thing is in the board itself. the motor, mast, and foil are not very heavy, and the battery is not bad, though it's a good size and gives me about two hours of run time. More than I've actually used. I generally quit with 40 percent left. It's the board with the controller that's stupid heavy.
Pain in the ass as a foil, but super light as a tow vehicle and I don't need a buddy to pull me. Good thing, I'm not that sociable. I'm one of the rare folks that benefit from COVID actually making me seem kind of normal, I can avoid people without obviously being a dick.
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That sounds super fun. I want to try that. Please make it a whipper inner. Wear a little beacon that it can follow once you've dropped the rope. That would be extra sweet.
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That sounds super fun. I want to try that. Please make it a whipper inner. Wear a little beacon that it can follow once you've dropped the rope. That would be extra sweet.
Yeah, the tech is actually pretty easy. Cell phone in your pocket, ESP32, GPS and a little modified drone code in the sled. Probably won't be a reliable rig as-is in big surf--they're stable upside down.
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On the battery losing power issue - I do notice some fall off in power as it gets low - but not that much. The biggest drop I notice is operating it when the water temp is 42 deg F and the air temp about the same...Brrr... Seems like the cold definitely effects the output. On the porpusing - I'm still getting used to things so not expert enough to say - however, some of the more experienced folks over on the Waydoo users facebook page are already experimenting with shims under the stabilizer and reporting better results at reducing this. There is a video i saw posted on the page of someone using the foil to tow him into small waves...drops the rope - surfs in - pumps back out to the board and repeats...it looks like hella fun.
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Good observation, battery droop from discharge is about 10 percent maximum. From cold it can be about 30 percent. And good for you for going out to play in that temperature--I won't be joining you. Since I've lost weight most of my Orca suit is gone. It's 69 degrees in our rental house in SoCal this morning and I'm cold.
Shimming the stabilizer will certainly help porpoising. Just make sure you go the right way. Reducing the incidence angle by shimming the front screw will reduce initial lift but that's no a big issue with these things, you just need to go a little faster. Just like those balsa gliders we had as kids--if the glider porpoised (stalled and recovered, then stalled again) you moved the wing backward which reduced the leverage the fixed stabilizer (elevator) had. Move it too far back and it turns into a lawn dart, which is why I'm not a fan of ultra-short fuselages.
I haven't measured the incidence angle of the Waydo, but my Takuma/Avante benefitted from a little reduced incidence angle. Mine has a huge wing and a short mast which makes stability critical.
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Just had a friend come around to fix an efoil.
He knows what he is doing. He just wanted to borrow some stuff.
No wonder these things are heavy. Mostly glass with a very thin layer of cosmetic carbon. Didnt dig deep enough to see if there was foam but lots of glass. The hatch, everything was way over built. No battery or foil on it and it was pretty heavy.
Water cooled. If you loose power in colder water maybe there is a way too slow or even stop the water cooling.
Pono, when my brother and I were kids we would drive the dinghy with a PVC tiller attatched to the outboard so we could sit up the front and stop it flipping.
Maybe just buy a RC boat and modify it.
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I thought about building a hull until I realized I already had one. If I decide slinging myself into surf is sufficiently fun I'll probably build one to deal with the self-righting problem and to add steering so it can navigate back to me. If an efoil gets flipped before it comes to get you, you could be waiting a long time for it to show up. There are some simple ways to make one self-righting, but it might be easier to just build a hull, especially to include autopilot steering.
The PVC isn't to turn a tiller like your outboard example, it's to turn the whole thing. Slinging out to one side will turn it without a pipe, but with four feet of pipe out the back and the tow line fed through it, I can turn by just switching hands and holding the tow handle off to the side.
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Yes I understood that it just reminded me of those times.
I am sure you could find a RC boat that you could modify easily.
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You can have 2 lines as well. One to each corner. Pull on the right one and it turns right,etc. Its an old idea but it works.
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I thought about that but I'd need a fairly wide handle I think. I'll try it though. The PVC pipe method turns a bit slow.