Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Gear Talk => Topic started by: marvinhecht on November 20, 2020, 07:02:04 AM
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Hi,
In other posts I entertained buying a smaller board but I have yet to really make full use of my own board, a 2014 Surftech Gerry Lopez Big Darling (Purple). It is a longboard-style surf SUP and it
The problem is not that I can't turn at all. I can usually turn slightly left or right, and turn onto a wave, and do large arching turns, but I can't just whip it around 180 degrees to quickly catch a wave like I want to especially in the mushy windswell I now surf in (moved from Hawaii to Ontario, surfing in Lake Huron & Erie). I tell people it sort of feels like I am "turning an oil tanker." Even in Hawaii on big waves, I never was able to actually do a bottom turn.
I will fully 100% admit that I am guilty as charged of not staying low enough on the board, not putting my weight or foot on the back of the board, and of not (yet) hiking the nose up to do a bouy-turn in the surf (I can do it fine in the flatwater). In another recent thread about a 2017 Naish board I had thought of buying I even posted several clips and you can see these issues in the videos.
However, while working on my form, I'd like to optimize my chances of being able to turn this board quicker. In the 6 years I've owned this board, I've always used it with quads. I had read or heard that quads were "better for performance" and just stuck with that. When I lost one of my quad GL1s in the ocean I bought a set of Quad GL2s. Then I lost one of those in the ocean, so for 3 years my default setup has been the GL2's up front and the GL1s in back (see pic). I am trying to individual replacement fins from Futures.com but having trouble. My first question is - given that the GL2s are a little smaller overall, and having the GL2s in the front and GL1s in the back makes the front fins not as big as they should be - should I replace the front quads with the white Futures T1 fins shown in the other pics? I've never used the white fins, they were cheap fins I bought for another board I was repairing - but they certainly are big!
Secondly, I am now learning that a thruster setup may in fact allow for easier turning especially for someone who is bad at stepping back more? Or perhaps it is better for me while I am learning to step back? So I think I'll be trying out the thruster setup soon. The only question is: for this thruster, I'll use the GL1 center fin, but do I want the bigger white T1 fins as my side fins? Or stick with the GL2s as side fins. They are smaller and would make it slightly more like a very mild 2+1 vs pure thruster (all fins equal size). Thanks for your help.
OK I've uploaded all the pics:
A) my default quad config (black GL2s front, honeycomb GL1s rear)
B) thruster (honeycomb GL1 Center fin, black GL2 side bites
C) thruster (honeycomb GL1 Center fin, white T1 side bites)
D) quad (white T1s front, honeycomb GL1s rear)
One other option: While testing this board surftech put a set of V2F4 quads on it to "Liven it up", I can buy a 5-fin set for $99 right now. V2F4 fins are rated a 7.0 but not sure that what means.
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Forget the quad set up. Forget the T1s, they are huge and for a twin fin set-up, which has a difference box location than the fronts boxes on your board.
AM2s from Futures in the front, Dobson 7.5" from Fins Unlimited in the LB box. AM2s are a proven, great all around template. NVS will sell you just the fronts in a template that is virtually identical to the AM2s. They call it AM Comp. Get it in large.
Done.
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Hi,
In other posts I entertained buying a smaller board but I have yet to really make full use of my own board, a 2014 Surftech Gerry Lopez Big Darling (Purple). It is a longboard-style surf SUP and it
The problem is not that I can't turn at all. I can usually turn slightly left or right, and turn onto a wave, and do large arching turns, but I can't just whip it around 180 degrees to quickly catch a wave like I want to especially in the mushy windswell I now surf in (moved from Hawaii to Ontario, surfing in Lake Huron & Erie). I tell people it sort of feels like I am "turning an oil tanker." Even in Hawaii on big waves, I never was able to actually do a bottom turn.
That is precisely why I don't like longboard shapes. Longboarding is an art that takes a lot of practice. The shape is not very conducive to turning so it requires a lot of finesse to get them to turn.
You could go with the standard longboard 2+1 fin set up. Maybe an 8 or 9-inch center fin and two much smaller side bites. That should dramatically help your turning in those mushy lake waves. Those GL side fins are way too big.
If you want something more high performance, those AM2's that dietlin mentioned would be great. That's a similar fin style to what Ben Gravy is using on his longboard on his recent visit to lake Ontario. Skip ahead to the 9:00 minute mark for the actual surfing.
https://youtu.be/ZdUUlSmgtSE
The waves were bigger in the second video. A shortboard shape might be better suited for these waves. It pays to have more than one board for different conditions. Skip ahead to 5:00 and 13:40.
https://youtu.be/-eRR46s0_To
I'll bet you don't have many glassy morning sessions on the great lakes. I think if I lived there, I would forget about trying to SUP surf the shorebreak in all that wind and get a downwind board or wing/foil board.
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Hey guys,
Thanks as usual. Oh yeah, those white fins WERE twins - I bought them for a board I was repairing where I needed to replace the center finbox and I was going to temporarily use JUST these while doing the repair. I know, bad.
Badger, let me review those videos. I've actually had some decent days in the Great Lakes on waves that were 2-5 ft, and I am getting used to windswell. My buddy did just buy a Slingshot 3-in-1 board that does Windsurfing with a foil, SUP surfing with a foil, and he will get a portable wing, and he says I can try out his equipment.
OK for the Al Merrick AM2s, I can guy honeycomb originals in a thruster set from futures for $115. At surfnvs.com, I can buy the nearly identical AM Comp Large fins for $80 - this is also a thruster set, maybe if I call them they will sell me just the 2 sides for less?
finsunlimited.com is sold out of the Dobson 7.5", they only have 6.0 and 6.5 left. I see futures has a "Gerry Lopez 7.75" single fin, or Machado or Admiral 7.5s (the latter looks more like the Dobson", all around $78.
It's getting a little too cold for my 4/3 wetsuit but if I can get out this weekend I think I'll see how the thruster setup on my board (GL1 center fin, GL2 sides) feels vis-a-vis quads.
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Hey Badger,
I was doing some searching and found this thread all about the GL1s and GL2s and looks like you even had some of both. Even though this thread is about me possibly going off quads, did you try those fins on your boards and what did you think of them?
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=35752.0
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Hey Badger,
I was doing some searching and found this thread all about the GL1s and GL2s and looks like you even had some of both. Even though this thread is about me possibly going off quads, did you try those fins on your boards and what did you think of them?
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=35752.0
Yes, I used both sets extensively on a few different boards. I liked them at first but in the end, decided both sets were two big. Five years ago, the general consensus was that standup boards needed bigger fins than prone surfboards. I found that wasn't true, at least for me. Many on the forum started using standard prone fin sets even on bigger boards. I did too and never looked back. Large prone fin sets are plenty big enough for SUP. There is no need for fins to be SUP specific. Both the GL1's and GL2's were oversized for SUP but have been discontinued for quite some time.
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Badger,
That is really insightful - the trend toward smaller fins. I had thought of ordering a set of V2F4 fins because at one point Surftech had me try the board with those on, to "loosen it up". I see that they are smaller than both the GL1 and GL2 in all respects.
That same thread has a really good video from Blue Planet - it's cool to see Robert and the other guy "arguing" about fins and setups. They even mention the Lil Darling - and Robert says to try it all possible ways and see for yourself: Thruster, Quads, Quads+ nubster, and based on the video I may even try my white T1s as Twins on by board to see how "skatey" I can get it feeling -why not? And play around with the position of the thruster. Seems like there is a lot of individual preferences in fins ( just like boards)- there is no one "right" way.
I think the only thing they say NOT to do is to take a performance surf sup and put a big 2+1 setup (say a 9" center fin and 2 3.5") - this would make it NOT turn quick. So I can see why others here are saying maybe try a 2+1 but no bigger than a 7.5" center fin, with really small side bites. Interesting...
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Badger is right about fin size. I use the same fins in my prone shortboards as I do in my sups unless I am running a 2+1. However, if I am reading your post correctly it seems like you are looking for equipment that will help you position for take-off. I don’t believe the fin set-up is going to make much difference swinging for a wave.
Your concern about being able to turn your board around quickly gives me the impression that you might be making your take offs harder than they need to be. It is actually easiest to take off on a sup starting in your front side stance with your board parallel to the swell rather than pointed towards shore. You need to be positioned where the swell is starting to jack up and ideally you should be moving slowly rather than starting from a dead stop. When the wave comes to you take a few hard strokes on your open side and push your board down the face with your front foot. When you start parallel with the wave each stroke turns you further down the face and puts you in better position to get in the wave. This technique has worked for me on high performance longboard sups as well as 7’4” short board style sups, in good big waves and in kooky tiny wind swell.
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Badger,
That is really insightful - the trend toward smaller fins. I had thought of ordering a set of V2F4 fins because at one point Surftech had me try the board with those on, to "loosen it up". I see that they are smaller than both the GL1 and GL2 in all respects.
That same thread has a really good video from Blue Planet - it's cool to see Robert and the other guy "arguing" about fins and setups. They even mention the Lil Darling - and Robert says to try it all possible ways and see for yourself: Thruster, Quads, Quads+ nubster, and based on the video I may even try my white T1s as Twins on by board to see how "skatey" I can get it feeling -why not? And play around with the position of the thruster. Seems like there is a lot of individual preferences in fins ( just like boards)- there is no one "right" way.
I think the only thing they say NOT to do is to take a performance surf sup and put a big 2+1 setup (say a 9" center fin and 2 3.5") - this would make it NOT turn quick. So I can see why others here are saying maybe try a 2+1 but no bigger than a 7.5" center fin, with really small side bites. Interesting...
To be blunt, I don’t think that fins will make any difference. You just need to practice. You can turn 14 foot board race board 180 degree in less than a second no matter what fins you use. We all like to play with equipment- it is part of the sport - but before you reach a certain skill level it just does not really matter.
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You have 2 issues
1) turning the board to position it for a wave
2) turning the board on the wave
1- solved by taking a step back. Or a couple of steps. Keep your weight on the back foot. And making a wide paddle stroke. practice it on flat water. The board will be less stable with your weight back.
2- solved by improving your technique. Helped with a thruster fin setup. Many boards turn better with your weight further back. and engaging a rail of course.
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Back when I started standup surfing, I saw videos of the pros doing pivot turns to catch waves and thought that was the way to do it. I actually returned a perfectly nice board because it was too difficult for me to pivot turn. Since then I've learned that while pivot turns look really cool when catching a wave, they are not really a requirement. I gave up trying to do it and to this day, still use a simple cross sweep to turn the board around. My 10'6 is a little slower to turn for a wave but it's not a big deal once you've done it a few hundred times.
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I should add that small prone fin sets aren't always the way to go on bigger boards.
My 10'6 Hypr Gun seems to work best as a 2 +1 with a 7.5" center and 4.5" sides. I've tried it as a thruster and it doesn't seem to respond as well. That might be because of the somewhat narrow tail it or it could just be me and I need more time on the board.
Give the 2+1 set up a chance as well.
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Hey guys - as always, thanks for your awesome insights. I spent the weekend watching Youtube videos on SUP surfing stance/form, fin types, fin configurations, the difference in shape between a traditional longboard and a "performance longboard" etc. My wife thought it was all greek to her and didn't mind as long as I gave her a foot massagel. She perked up when they started talking about about bottom turns, thrusters, etc but I said no... it's not what you think... ::)
OK so at the start of this thread I said I am guilty as charged about not using very good technique, and wanted this thread to be about fins not form, but it does seem like form is ultra-critical.
I was watching videos of Gerry Lopez on the Lil Darling and SUPboarder doing longboard SUP surfing- and seeing how they turn. I couldn't believe how far back they stand! It's almost like they were leaning back to do a bicycle pop-a-wheelie - but with their surfboard nose in the air! Or they were flying a 747 and yanking the control ALL the way to the back to launch the nose into the air for takeoff. In the following thread I posted a video of one of my best waves and I am looking at it, and i don't think my rear foot goes any further than the back 1/3 of the board. Also, because I hardly ever surfed prone before SUP surfing, I tend to use the paddle to turn, not my body/hips:
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,36733.msg423142.html#msg423142
surlygringo - I agree with you that instead of facing out back I could start parallel to the beach. I remember, I learned how to turn into wave using a wide sweeping arc:
https://youtu.be/xL_OQPgiZ9o?t=86
Going back to it, I see Robert explains that yes you can start either pointing out back OR parallel to the wave/beach. And in fact I often DO hang out parallel to the beach - so I don't have to turn the board around 180 just a quarter turn- at least in the ocean. When i started surfing the great lakes I thought I can't do this because the waves are so close together - I basically have to let 1 wave role underneath me in the MIDDLE of my turn (exactly when I am parallel and COULD roll of my board like a hot dog on a rotisserie). But I found that my balance is good enough that I can do it now without falling off. I don't LIKE having the possibility of being thrown off my board while hanging out parallel, but it's better than trying to crank a 180" turn in 2 - 2.5 seconds. But you know what- I can (and do) practice BUOY turns in flat water, I'll just work on getting that down in the surf too!
Badger - got a question fins. Attached is a pic from the video you posted. Do you mean you like the fins on the right side or the black/grey ones on the left? Those are quite pretty - what model are they? Not the AM2, correct? I see the point - in weak windsurf it is good to have fins with big bases and lots of areas. Also, at futures they they also have a line of fins in "BlackStix" that give you speed in weak great lakes surf, do you like fins in BlackStix too in this situation?
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Guys the most insightful video I found was this one. He starts out by saying that in a thruster you can initiate turns without too many issues (or easier - like you'all are saying). I actually have never tried a thruster on my board and set it up that way to out this weekend, but never made it out due to weather.
I made the link below start right at 8:22 where he is saying something REALLY interesting - he says when turning a quad, the first 1/3 of the turn is tough, but the rest of the turn is easy. This is EXACTLY what I have found - I feel great once I turn (and it feels very fast/speedy) and get into the pocket, but that INITIAL part of the turn is a royal PITA on my board:
https://youtu.be/-_C0v7ihaIE?t=502
Did you see how he ALSO likes those AM2's for the sides? Do you guys like the orange/black version of this fin like he shows? OK then he goes on to show how these black & green "prototype" fins fixed the problem - made his quads turns as easily a thruster. He goes with these trailer fins I can now initiate a turn like butter - WAPP-HOOOWW!! He points out these trailers are convex on outside and flat on the inside. he also points out how these trailers help the most on boards where the trailers are set closer to the rail - like on my Lopez.
So it turns out this video is 7 years old and those trailers have since come out (no longer a prototype). In this comments section he says these are the "QD2 4.0 Tech Flex" trailers.
So my question to you guys is: have you used these trailers on your quad setup and do they make initiating a turn easier for you, like they did for him?
Lastly, I am looking at futures and my local surf shop and it seems there are all sorts of "QD2 " variations out now - QD2 4.0, QD2 3.75, QD2 3.0, and it comes in various materials having various types of flex. Some of them are black / green also, some are blue/black.. any thoughts on which "edition" would be good for my board, to run alongside the AM2s? BTW I won't be NOT trying the thruster, the 2+1 setups all mentioned, I am just really stoked that there could be quads that fix the problem I am having. I do like how quads are less dangerous (not as likely to cut me vis-a-vis one big fin, easier to close up my SUP case since they are not as high, and I can go closer to shore since they don't stick down as far..). Thanks in advance.
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Marvin,
My apologies for jumping to technique solutions. I should have read your post more carefully. So... just fin advice: I don’t think buying new fins is going to change your experience taking off or surfing much, if at all. I say that as someone who, while fortunate enough to grow up 2 blocks from the beach, has often had to make do with some pretty kooky waves while traveling for work. I have surfed very short interval wind swell on in the gulf and on lakes, ferry boat waves, standing waves, weird tidal waves inside rivers, the list is embarrassingly long. I have spent some days riding with different fins during the same session, riding finless, etc. I have not found there to be much difference between fins in those really gutless waves that you show yourself paddling in on the lake. I would just throw in your smallest set or the twins with a smaller trailer. I probably would not use that big single fin. Just a quick note not about fins. If your goal is making turns on small short interval wind swell there are better boards once you have more experience, although the Naish you asked about in your other post is not one of them:)
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Badger - got a question fins. Attached is a pic from the video you posted. Do you mean you like the fins on the right side or the black/grey ones on the left? Those are quite pretty - what model are they? Not the AM2, correct? I see the point - in weak windsurf it is good to have fins with big bases and lots of areas. Also, at futures they they also have a line of fins in "BlackStix" that give you speed in weak great lakes surf, do you like fins in BlackStix too in this situation?
I don't know what you are asking. They look like typical shortboard fins. The white fins have a fairly long base to provide drive. The other fins seem to have more rake which will draw out the turns.
Fin shapes explained here. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e4/ef/94/e4ef94588074d6c538aacd849bde80ee.jpg
You can learn more by Googling surfboard fin guide.
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The pic is from the Ben Casey video you linked too, where you were saying the fins on his board were similar to the AM2 fins. Did you mean the fins on the left or right board are similar to the AM2?
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The pic is from the Ben Casey video you linked too, where you were saying the fins on his board were similar to the AM2 fins. Did you mean the fins on the left or right board are similar to the AM2?
I was talking about the first video. I was using it as an example to show that he was using shortboard style fins in his longboard. Ben rides his longboard as if it were a shortboard. Most longboarders use a single fin or a 2+1 set up. It depends on your style of riding.
I don't know much about the AM2's except that they look like a good all-around fin set. The FCS Performer fins I had in my Tom Carroll Outer Reef 10'6 were similar and they surfed great on that board. I ended up selling the Outer Reef because it was too wide and had too much volume.
Here it is here. https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,34703.msg400710.html#msg400710
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Badger,
Hey in that thread you mentioned that the trick to turning big boards is to get on the tail- good info, I will work on that. I am surprised you bought such a big Tom Carroll board (10"6 x 33" wide) at 175 lbs? A friend of mine who also surfs the local windswell/ great lakes and is 5"9 and 175 lbs - he has 7 different SUPS and I asked him which is the most fun of all, and he it is an 8"4 Tom Caroll Loose Leaf. I think your purpose was different - you were buying a board for big days and to go out far - I get that. Heck for me I like the laird 12" x 34 for that purpose!
My plan is to keep my current board and play with the fins- good to know that your Tom Caroll board liked a thruster setup the best- I'm trying a thruster next on my board - never have before!
You and the others here know so much about fins etc but for anyone reading this thread, here are some additional really high-quality videos with good info about fins:
Surfboard Fins Guide Part 1 - Advantages/Disadvantages of various configs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf1fgoUcKkA&ab_channel=GOSURF
Surfboard Fins Guide Part 2 - fin attributes & construction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5eVI2k3Tms&ab_channel=GOSURF
Fin Systems: Futures vs FCS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpWJztqE-dU&ab_channel=GOSURF
Informative and Funny - he says inside flat foils cause "Excitement"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtNsOF2dE0E&t=205s&ab_channel=SurfMoustache
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One more..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEwSEyMD62E&ab_channel=SurfMoustache
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For a 180 pivot, have you tried the rainbow stroke? You paddle from the tail to the nose on the heel side of the board (like a rainbow, props to Conner Baxter), then from the nose to the tail on the toe side of the board (like a rainbow). You should be able to get 90-180 degrees in effectively two strokes.
Fins are expensive. Try option B. I would experiment with low cost fins until you dial in what setup you like. When experimenting, I switch it up every session, and keep notes in a fin diary. It is definitely worth experimenting with fins, as you can transform a dog to a magic board. No affiliation, but dorsalfins sells some low cost center fins for size experimentation. Your GL's look pretty chewed up, those would hum for me while kitesurfing. How much do you weigh? Perhaps the GLs are too big for your weight.
When I first started riding my longboards I liked my controller quad set (appropriate for my weight) as the board would spin 180 easier than a big 2+1. On at least one board, I have since changed my preference and like a smaller 2+1 (6"-7"). It doesn't spin 180 as easy, but I like how it turns better. On a 9' & 12' board, I found I have a lot of fun with a 8.5" single fin. A single fin will really help you get a feel for the rail line of how a board likes to turn. My buddy said he caught the ride of his life on a 11' single fin. But if you like more top to bottom surfing, a 2+1 will have more drive and a tighter arc. I've found that I prefer a single or 2+1 (over thrusters and quads) in messy conditions, I have more drive when I paddle with a 2+1 or single fin as it seems like I can paddle faster and cover a larger distance.
For a single fin, I've heard the rule of thumb is 1" per foot of board. But I have found that with a SUP, you can go smaller. For a single fin, I would go up to a 9". SUPs are wider, have more swing weight, and you have the leverage of the paddle. I found this video really insightful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0UihzchsfQ
With a center fin, the more forward towards the nose, the looser the turns will be (as you are effectively making the fin area near the rail smaller as explained in the video above). For a 2+1, I would try to keep the center fin between 6"-7". To enhance turning, you could try a cutaway fin. For 2+1 front fins, you want to keep the surface area small at 3.25", 3.7", no bigger than 4.5". I have a 12' that turns surprisingly fast with 4.25" sides and a 7" fin. The center fin size is a balance of pivot versus drive as the center fin goes smaller to bigger.
When you look to replace/supplement your longboard, I would look at short wide tail boards that have quick acceleration. Less swing weight for the 180 pivot, and less real estate to travel to get on the tail.
Have fun.
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Hey sflinux,
Thanks! I have a friend with a Naish Maliko who likes to invite me to flatwater paddling with him, and he recently was trying out Connor Baxter's unique techniques - both stroke/stance and turns, and wants to show me. I have been resisting going out because I find flatwater paddling boring (my board glides OK but is not "fun" to flatwater paddle) - but sounds like I need to be open-minded and learn! Once in a while I do like to practice buoy turns but it's the old-fashioned lean back and pop-the-nose type. Maybe I can get good enough at both turning types to do them in the surf, at least some of the time!
Yep I am going to start experiment like crazy with fins, starting with what I own. I have already installed a thruster set for the next session. You can see in the pic that my GL1 center is in mint condition, never been in the water :)
After that I am going to take the T1 twins and stick them on in the side position (even though the fin box is not in the right position) - just to see how "loose" and "skatey" I can get that back end going. It sounds like it will be like drifting around a corner in a rear-wheel drive car which is always fun.
On fins, ask me how I know they are expensive. I lost a $100 beautiful new fiberglass single fin in the ocean. That was an expensive lesson learning that you do NOT just grab a non-stainless steel screw from your toolbox to screw in a center fin that will be going into the ocean, doooohhh! But in Hawaii I had various beater boards and I kept 2 center fins: A white & blue Surf Designs Manta 9" GT shown below- is that what you mean by a cutout fin? In another thread someone said to ditch it. I think that fin has never done much for me. It's too thin with not much area - I think that's why my neighbor in Honolulu gave it to me for free :)
Then I have a 9.5" Hobie "wood panel" thick center fin also shown. I can't quite get that into my center fin box, not sure why. Is it kosher to shave a bit of the base off at the front or back (or both) - just enough so I can get it in? The base is extremely hard I may have to ask a friend with power tools. The next thing to try would be to pick up a center fin about 7.5" (and maybe use my current 5.10 GL2 front quads as sidebites (or buy the 4.73 AM2's or 4.65 "AM Comps" per above).
I don't think I am in to "top to bottom" surfing, I normally like nice slow rollers and nose-riding type wave's (even though I can't nose-ride), and wide turns - Waikiki is where I learned -- except now, locally when the waves are only 2-3 feet high and come every 2-3 seconds, I get a little stressed - kind of like Tom Hanks in the movie Greyhound trying to crank around a large battleship ASAP before a Torpedo arrives! Honestly it's not so bad lately, I am WAY more calm, and I find my balance is good enough I don't just roll over like a hot dog on a rotisserie even if I have to let a wave pass below me before catching the next one...
Hey I really like that guy from New Zealand too. He even gave me some tips when I commented on his other video linked above! He was also suggesting a number of things but particularly trying some smaller rear quads. I am on the heavy side 195-200 lbs however I did ride a set of Futures V2F4 quads on my board for one session--Surftech said it would loosen it up, I just can't remember how they felt! I just found out that the trailers on that set are in fact the smallest QD2 3.75 with an 80/20 foil. SHRED SHOW above thought the QD2 4.0 flat foiled techflex fins really helped turning. I can actually buy a 5-fin set of V2F4 fins right now for $99 in Honeycomb so the last part of my plan is to buy that set - or - JUST get the QD2's, maybe even in Blackstix for weaker surf. I don't know how critical a flat foil in the trailer fins is - but I do notice my GL2 rears have a flat foil and the GL1s don't.
Anyway, I will keep you'all posted, as usual this is great stuff, very helpful! Marv
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Hey guys I have good news: Futuresfins.com can replace my rear left GL2 so I'll be able to run all GL2s again.
Found another option for Fins: Kai Lenny has been busy, this "zebra-stripped" MFC fins got a good review.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqqsP3LV47A
I didn't realize Infinity SUP makes such cool short-board type surf sups, I want one! This guy Anthony Maltese is killing it! In another video he shows off a prototype "Stub Nose" board meant for small surf, now I want it!!
Also, on Form, I notice that as soon as he gets on the wave his back foot is ALWAYS on the stomp pad / VERY REAR of the board, almost like it is GLUED or nailed down. He NEVER takes his rear foot off - even though his knee will bend forward and back. I think this is what I need to practice, and/or get an Indo board...
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Hey guys, I got a chance to go out yesterday and compare a thruster vs quad setup. I learned that a thruster is not for me, at least not in the weak surf I have access to (e.g. 2-6 ft weak crumbly waves). I could pivot a *slightly* but more but after catching the wave initially, I would slow down and stall, and the wave would pass me by. It was like my center fin was acting like a hook on the bottom of figher jets landing on an aircraft carrier in the movie Top Gun. I quickly went back and put on my quads, and on the same surf I had just enough speed to keep gliding down the wave, it felt like greased butter, especially if I angled down left or right.
I can see how someone in powerful medium or heavy surf may want this feeling of being held or slowed down, and/or if they are doing lots of top to bottom surfing and airs.
With the thruster, I also missed the left/right "tippiness" I felt on my board. Like when you step on the board for the first time it's a bit like a teeter taughter, kind of tippy horizontally. I think that's a Gerry Lopez design things, I think the marketing says "Gerry assumes people have their balance skills in order". Anyway I do lots of yoga and I am totally used to this board and have come to like this feature. I think it's designed that way so you can easily throw a rail into a wave on your side, and/or initiating a turn. Maybe it's the V-contour on the bottom that helps it quickly get on an angle.
In terms of turning onto a wave, I thought I had this massive problem, but it is not a big deal once I started doing pivot / buoy turns. I was able to do it since the surf was weak. Or I just kind of put left foot back, stayed low, and leaned a bit in the direction I wanted to turn.
I also did a lot of walking the board and trimming yesterday - I was watching youtube videos and I understand on longboards you can't always have your foot on the back (say when trimming or needing to accelerate) because the board is so long, but on shortboard style SUPS you can, because the board is shorter.
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Hey guys, I got a chance to go out yesterday and compare a thruster vs quad setup. I learned that a thruster is not for me, at least not in the weak surf I have access to (e.g. 2-6 ft weak crumbly waves). I could pivot a *slightly* but more but after catching the wave initially, I would slow down and stall, and the wave would pass me by. It was like my center fin was acting like a hook on the bottom of figher jets landing on an aircraft carrier in the movie Top Gun. I quickly went back and put on my quads, and on the same surf I had just enough speed to keep gliding down the wave, it felt like greased butter, especially if I angled down left or right.
I can see how someone in powerful medium or heavy surf may want this feeling of being held or slowed down, and/or if they are doing lots of top to bottom surfing and airs.
Quads have more down the line speed which is what you want for mushy waves.
Thrusters are for getting vertical on the wave face. To get the most out of a thruster set up, the board needs to be in a constant state of turning.
One way to get speed out of a thruster on a slow wave is by pumping the board through a series of quick left, right, left, right turns. Not easy to do on a longboard style SUP and it's physically more work.
Quads can cruise the wave more efficiently than a thruster and do long powerful turns at higher speeds. To use an analogy, you could say that thruster is for skiing moguls and quad is more like slalom.
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Thanks again badger. I am a very detail-oriented person, I even taught statistics published research. For some reason, or maybe it was "surfer brain", from the start I just heard that quads were "better" or for "high performance" - and I took it as gospel. I am embarrassed to say I even bought futures quad finboxes and converted a a large long, large, fat, wide, surf sup with huge rounded rails and 2+1 inserts to quads - this was my "Frankenboard." I remember telling Robert of Blue Planet and he was saying yeah, that's nice but it may not improve the board :) Hindsight is 20/20.
In the meantime I'm going to dial in my quads. I finally reached futures fins and they are replacing my left rear GL2, and I'm ordering a V2F4 set and going smaller too. The smaller fins may not work in windswell ( a local surf shop suggest to not go lower than 4.15 on the rears) - but I'll have the fins for anywhere I travel.
Also reading up on mfchawaii.com fins, seems like they make fins with larger rears for big surf, and now they have a set of quads meant for normal surf also with larger rears, wondering what they have discovered.
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I've been into quads ever since SUP companies started offering five fin boxes. I saw the advantage immediately when I suddenly had the speed to outrun waves.
Quads also seem to better suit my style of riding.
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I did a whole bunch of fin testing a few years ago. Before I switched to foiling 100% of the time.
My favorite board of all time was a 10' x 28" Jeff Clark quad. I ended up loving the quad set up despite having 5 fin boxes. I tested symmetrical fins, put in Larry's Pro Boxes so I could change out the cant and even reverse the fins if necessary. The most radical thing I did was to put all 4 fins with the FLAT side to the same side of the board. I went out in 8 to 10 foot surf and the board went straight at a 15 degree angle and I could NOT rail it up against the flat side of the fins. Essentially all fins were lifting in the same direction. There was so much lift, torque, from the fins my weight could not impart any roll on the board. Moral was LOTS OF LIFT and LIFT = DRAG. Mmmmmm.
Long story short after measuring speeds with a TRACE and trying to get down to individual rides with specific fins:
1) I like the quad configuration best
2) Bigger waves are faster. You could be riding the hood of a Volkswagen and go the same speed as a surfboard if you managed to catch the wave together. If you want to go 30 mph then get on a 20 foot wave.
3) The bigger the waves the smaller the fins. Lift and drag increase as the square of the speed. When you double the speed you quadruple lift and drag if you don't use smaller fins. Foiling has the same problem just more acute.
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Here was a great video that showcases how the outer fins work on a barreling wave.
Essentially the upper fin is engaged and lifting using the flat inside edge. The outer, downwave, fin can be fully deprecated doing nothing but spraying water and air. The fins have opposing lifting faces to ensure that at least one fin is NOT stalled in almost any board orientation.
The faster you go the less chance of stall so you can rely on asymmetrical and smaller fins. Big fins are SUPER draggy but keep you from stalling at slow speed and in mushy conditions. Similarly cambered fins (Flat on one side) can handle broader range of angle of attack without stall but also impart higher drag. Stall being defined as tail slide or spin out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3z01EF80RE&feature=emb_logo
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With regards to getting a fin to fit in the box, it is ok to shape a fin to fit in the box. I wouldn't do the opposite and shape a box so that a fin could fit. I have some fins that are too small and I have to add reflective duct tape to a fin to fill in the gap in the box so that a fin is not loose in the box.
For cutaway, if you take away area from the base of the fin, you remove resistance from turning, making it feel like a smaller fin, but still having the benefit of its size where you can feel the drive while paddling (versus a smaller fin). These are typically used in a 2+1 setup.
https://futuresfins.com/products/cutaway-7-0 (https://futuresfins.com/products/cutaway-7-0)
You may find this video interesting. He talks about quads versus thruster and the ideal lines you would draw with each. (If you haven't listened to the paddlewoo podcast, I highly recommend them. The Conner Baxter rainbow stroke was mentioned in Conner's interview.)
https://vimeo.com/169888589 (https://vimeo.com/169888589)
With regards to thruster, I've had the same experience as you. I still think it would be worth trying a single fin, as they can have less drag than a thruster. The bigger the single fin, the more drag you will feel (nose pitching up).
With regards to buying a left versus right fin, make sure you you are getting the one you want. I believe the "left" fin is the one on the "left" side when the board is in the water from the bird eye's view of the board.
For Quad fins, I initially played with: Controller Quads, PSH (Pancho Sullivan front/Controller Rear), and the Stretch Quads. The Controllers act kind of like a twinfin, but with additional hold, and are appropriate for our weight. The PSH fins felt a little stiff for my taste. The Stretch are more of a medium fin, I've found that I like the extra stickiness of a nubster fin in the center box for our weight. The Stretch fins are speed generating fins. Since then, I have played with whatever fin combos I have. You can go small for the rear quad, you just lose drive, where the tail can drift. I find that I like larger quads as the waves get steeper or bigger.
I feel the same with regards to flatwater paddling. I encourage you to try a different fin setup every time you go out: (Single, twinfin (quad front only), quad rear only, full quad, thruster, no fins). Worthwhile to practive paddling the board backwards too, if you want to work on your hellicopter game. I've found that I learn more, the worse the conditions are (windy & choppy) [wear a leash in these conditions]. It is fun to find a rhythm where you can paddle solely on one side and go straight. Try to feel the board surf as it glides during a stroke. A 20-30 min flat water paddle session can be informative. Long paddles can point out flaws in your technique. It was my flat water paddle sessions that I learned how to improve my footwork and paddle technique which had dramatic results in the surf.
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When you are out with your friend, exchange boards. I've found testing a lot of different boards was informative.
I've tried a V2 quad set. I like the speed and lack of drag they have, remind me of the Stretch set. You can always add a nubster if you want more drive.
I come from a skateboard background and always felt right at home on Quads. Quads remind me of riding bowls on a skateboard. Small quads can feel like a skateboard in the rain. But I appreciate the ride of a single fin too. A single fin reminds me of bombing a hill on a skateboard.
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Forgot to mention, the quads I ride have 50/50 rears. As shown in this fin guide near the bottom of the page. https://www.surffcs.com/blogs/community/a-guide-to-fcs-fins
I think they make the board a little less skatey but I really haven't tried enough fin sets to know for sure.
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Yes I am in love with quads, at least now I know why, and that I didn't have the wrong set of fins on my board for 6 years. I couldn't wait to remove that thruster setup and I interrupted my surf session to go back and do it. I also did not like having to again mess with a screwdriver and that little rectangular nut that slides in the big finbox. Once I put them back on I had my speed back and slid down the wave like greased butter, I could go rail-to-rail easily... yes. So futuresfins.com finally called me back and they are replacing my left rear GL2 for something like $38 then I ordered the $99 F-fin set of V2F4. The guy told me how I could fix my left side GL2 by putting some solarez on the fin where the rock took out a chunk, let it dry, then sand it down - to be the exact same shape as my right side GL2. He said the GL1 is truly out-of-stock forever (he initially thought it was on backorder). No problem - per my analysis below the GL1s are sort of equilalent to pants in XXL!
He had a "nubster" Thermotech TMF-1 for $12 for sale and said I'll try one of those also. He thought it work better on my board than the more pointier Thermotech TMF-2 which was out of stock anyway. I can try the nubster with my quads or with my Twins- why not?
While working on this thread I've been compiling fin sizes for various fins and what is considered small/medium/large, how the GL1 and GL3s compare.. attaching it as a pic so the formatting does not get ruined. This chart is posted below - you may have to scroll sideways. I am still curious why people feel there is a trend toward using regular (smaller) regular surf fins on SUPs, is it because they were too big to begin with? The surf shop questioned me on that, saying -- SUPs haven't gotten smaller overall recently, so you should still probably stick with SUP specific fins... (NOT!)
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I didn't mention foil above but it appears both GL1s and GLS2 are flat foiled on all quad fins (50/50 of course for the center/thruster fin). The rear qd2 3.75 I am getting on the set of yellow/black V2F4s I ordered are the "speed generating" ones with an 80/20 foil. I was worried about that (see the youtube video above from SHRED SHOW).. but the futures guy on the phone said it should be OK - a flat foil will provide more hold and I may actually want some release at the back of the tail.
Oh I also did more follow up on Anthony Maltese's video above where he reviews the Kai Lenny "Zebra" Stub quad fins, I was intrigued by these and did some more investigation. Seems like MFC Hawaii has been busy and come out with all sorts of fins (not just quads) that are getting good ratings. I went to the site and sumarized things below. This is really interesting: They seem to have found having bigger quad rears is better for Jaws/Peahi. But then, MFC now has a set of quads for "normal" surf where the rears are ALSO bigger (#5 below). Anyone heard about them, seen them, or know why REARs larger than fronts could work better for big or even normal surf?
Has anyone with FCS or FCS2 fins tried switching their quad rears and fronts around so that the bigger fin is in the rear? (You can't do that with futures quads, bummer). Thanks!
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Reminds me of this photo. Taken before the Mavericks opening ceremony a few years ago.
Jeff Clark inspecting Kai Lenny's gun. Note quads with big rear fins. Kai has been riding MFC fins for a long while.
Kai looks skeptical. Jeff is all serious. And I am loving it.
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Hmm.. even if Kai looks skeptical .. the proof is in the pudding and if it worked for Jaws and he's alive, I am not going to argue. I see those Rears are pretty close, because the board is a gun and very thin, so they are acting a little more like a thruster. I'd imagine something about needing extra grip from the rear for massive waves is the reason, but what really puzzles me is that MFC made a set with larger rears for normal surf too. I'm trying to find out what they know and/or have learned...