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The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: frenchfoiler on September 06, 2020, 04:42:09 AM

Title: E foil
Post by: frenchfoiler on September 06, 2020, 04:42:09 AM
Lately I got a Efoil, I run a surf school and I do foil lessons so instead of getting a boat I bought an Efoil from a french brand PRW foil.

Two reasons why I bought an Efoil : first like I said, onlmy for business, helping people to get faster at foiling.

And reason two, I think there is a big potential for DW with electrically assisted only, I think this is the futur.

What I wouln't want to see is Efoiling becoming like jetski, big jump, going crazy fast, and certainly not on wave  !!!
But being able to go far outside catching open ocean swell just using electrically motor assisted to catch the bump and then only use the foil itself, this is what I bebieve in.

Anyway, first tried, super easy, I have a 5'7, I start laying down then take off with a little speed, you just need to adjust your weight/foot pressure and keep an easy speed (50% of the power that you can check on the remote, you cruise at 17/20 km/h).
The good part of this Efoil is with the beginner mode of the remote control, it makes an easy gradual speed so you have time to adjust and find your balance.

It is super safe as there is a leash that stop right away the engine when you fall.

The good part is even for good foiler you can improve your skill, for exemple work on your technique for carving turn.

I will send a video soon.

Title: Re: E foil
Post by: surfcowboy on September 06, 2020, 08:55:43 AM
I fully back this. I think its got to be the fastest way to progress (this is backed up by foilers whove done it.) Im investigating doing a lesson in SD this month.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: liv2surf on September 06, 2020, 09:07:21 AM
I fully back this. I think its got to be the fastest way to progress (this is backed up by foilers whove done it.) Im investigating doing a lesson in SD this month.

Merten -- who started eFoil Builders forum and who probably has more eFoil experience than most -- said exactly the same thing, that it is the best way to learn foiling.

Evan from Axis 'Foils'/Live2Kite has video of his kids riding DIY Axis eFoils on his Instagram and replied to my question that Axis would soon be releasing plans for the DIY retrofit of Axis foils.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: frenchfoiler on September 06, 2020, 10:55:17 PM
I fully back this. I think its got to be the fastest way to progress (this is backed up by foilers whove done it.) Im investigating doing a lesson in SD this month.

Merten -- who started eFoil Builders forum and who probably has more eFoil experience than most -- said exactly the same thing, that it is the best way to learn foiling.

Evan from Axis 'Foils'/Live2Kite has video of his kids riding DIY Axis eFoils on his Instagram and replied to my question that Axis would soon be releasing plans for the DIY retrofit of Axis foils.

Yes I saw that, the new/next generation of Efoil gear is gonna improve for sure, lighter, less expensive, etc...

As I said, I see two differents ways on the evolution of the Efoil : flying in flat water using only the power of an engine and the assisted engine which will open up a whole new world, just like Ebike.

Title: Re: E foil
Post by: PonoBill on September 07, 2020, 04:05:44 PM
The two big problems are weight and drag. The eFoil builders are making them for driving around on with battery life at more than an hour. That means the battery needs to be big. If they were made to surf or downwind the battery could be much smaller.

The drag problem is also relatively easy. A thruster inside the fuselage instead of a prop, or mounting a prop drive high on the mast, so when you get up, no prop drag. Of course coming down a bit and tapping the prop and motor would be like hitting a giant wad of grass.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: deepmud on September 07, 2020, 10:20:07 PM
maybe have the motor auto kick in when it touches down at least enough to negate the drag?
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: tarquin on September 07, 2020, 10:23:35 PM
There is a company here that has 4 e foils. Instructor on 1 and 3 punters. I had been wondering if it was a good way to learn. Sounds like it is. It's not cheap but it's the end of the summer here and apparently he will do a deal.
 They must have invested a fortune,rib,jet boat,jet skis all sorts of toys.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: Admin on September 14, 2020, 12:51:04 PM
Question:

Are there any e foils that have the propulsion either high on the mast (just below the board or channeled into the board)?  It seems like for frenchfoilers vision of a downwind, swell, or small wave machine it might be awesome to have a very reduced battery and propulsion setup that would be very light and entirely out of the way (drag free) when you are up on foil.  It seems like this could be separate from the foil setup and might be used in brief pulses.   Does that exist?

PS:  What if something like this were attached to a second set of US boxes or recessed into the board? 

https://www.scubajet.com/shop/packages/sj-neo-sup-package/

(https://www.scubajet.com/wp-b8eac-content/uploads/2019/04/Getting-into-the-water-withSCUBAJET.jpg)

(https://www.scubajet.com/wp-b8eac-content/uploads/2019/11/neo-1.png)
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: jondrums on September 14, 2020, 03:09:56 PM
I've been thinking about exactly this for a while and even threatened myself with prototyping something.  But at the end of the day, I think a paddle gets you almost all of this for less weight.

Such a device would only be interesting to get INTO a wave - then ride it with the prop out of the water.  It isn't interesting on flat water because once the board is out of the water, what then?  I think that if there is a wave, then there is a set of board/foil that I can use to paddle into it.

That being said, I have been out on big days where the swell is just moving too fast to catch with a paddle.  So maybe for the big long period stuff
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: Admin on September 14, 2020, 04:30:43 PM
Loooking at the existing scubajet above it looks like it is set to mount to a single US box and comes with an adapter.  5 lbs sounds great.  I can't quite tell from the text if 5 MPH is the max speed but that might do it with a large foil (Axis 1150?).  If so, an existing lightweight SUP or larger, lightweight wingfoil board would make a good test board with the addition or a new US box.  Possibly there are other similar preexisting units with a bit more power.  Tempted.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: MLB on September 14, 2020, 08:03:25 PM
I've been thinking about exactly this for a while and even threatened myself with prototyping something.  But at the end of the day, I think a paddle gets you almost all of this for less weight.

Such a device would only be interesting to get INTO a wave - then ride it with the prop out of the water.  It isn't interesting on flat water because once the board is out of the water, what then?  I think that if there is a wave, then there is a set of board/foil that I can use to paddle into it.

That being said, I have been out on big days where the swell is just moving too fast to catch with a paddle.  So maybe for the big long period stuff

It most certainly is interesting on flat water and almost everyone is interested IN them.  ;)
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: surfcowboy on September 14, 2020, 08:20:19 PM
Admin, I think Pono and maybe clay bought those boosters on Kickstarter that mounted like this and did an 8 sec burst. I think thats likely the downwind jam, right there. No hassles, see a bump, hit the boost and go. Id think that would make prone downwinders way easier.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: PonoBill on September 14, 2020, 08:49:38 PM
I never got mine. Which seems a bit odd since it wasn't exactly a complex product.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: Admin on September 14, 2020, 10:26:02 PM
Thanks guys,

Is this the one?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/racer23/boost-surfing-fin/posts/2935046

https://boostsurfing.com/preorder/

That looks great.  They have lots of adapters and super light 1.7 lbs.  You could use a couple if needed.  Is it powerful enough to catch swell without hand paddling?  That looks questionable in the videos but it would be nice.  It would be cool to pulse while already in a squat or on your knees to avoid a full pop up. 
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: frenchfoiler on September 15, 2020, 12:28:04 AM
Thanks guys,

Is this the one?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/racer23/boost-surfing-fin/posts/2935046

https://boostsurfing.com/preorder/

That looks great.  They have lots of adapters and super light 1.7 lbs.  You could use a couple if needed.  Is it powerful enough to catch swell without hand paddling?  That looks questionable in the videos but it would be nice.  It would be cool to pulse while already in a squat or on your knees to avoid a full pop up.

The big question is the power and the speed, is it enought ?
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: Admin on September 15, 2020, 12:45:01 AM
This one is saying it gives a boost up to 7 mph. https://www.scubajet.com/shop/spare-parts/akku/sup-package-pro/  That should do it.  It looks like they have a few battery options and that the torpedo gets longer and heavier as battery size increases.  I asked.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: jondrums on September 15, 2020, 08:52:39 AM
It most certainly is interesting on flat water and almost everyone is interested IN them.  ;)

I was speaking specifically of a propeller mounted up high on the mast where it is out of the water once flying.  Obviously lots of people are riding the efoils in flat water
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: liv2surf on September 15, 2020, 03:28:24 PM
Thanks guys,

Is this the one?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/racer23/boost-surfing-fin/posts/2935046

https://boostsurfing.com/preorder/

That looks great.  They have lots of adapters and super light 1.7 lbs.  You could use a couple if needed.  Is it powerful enough to catch swell without hand paddling?  That looks questionable in the videos but it would be nice.  It would be cool to pulse while already in a squat or on your knees to avoid a full pop up.

The big question is the power and the speed, is it enought ?

Developers said 2 units would sync up with controller and operate simultaneously.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: surfcowboy on September 15, 2020, 04:31:15 PM
Those kickstarter guys have been updating youtube lately. Testing in Bali.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: WHS on September 17, 2020, 10:38:20 AM

As I said, I see two differents ways on the evolution of the Efoil : flying in flat water using only the power of an engine and the assisted engine which will open up a whole new world, just like Ebike.

French foil, Have you tried it downwind yet? Curious whether it can provide assist without completely taking over sensation of riding swells.

Good comparison with ebike at least from marketing pov. Really like how my mountain ebike increases performance, but is controlled by how hard I peddle. I still feel like I'm making it go just with world class ability. Not sure you can get the same effect with an efoil? Pump assist would be cool if it was possible? Or maybe have a clutch on propeller that engages engine based on drag, speed or height? I'm thinking Efoils are limited to be like a class2 ebike with a throttle. More watercraft than watersport. I'm sure flat water riding is fun but I wouldn't buy for that.

I would hope for something like the boost concept (motor/battery combo) that attaches to a foil mast (instead of fin box) will get developed. I agree with the rest of you that a quick assist to get on foil that doesn't get the way of riding swells would be most useful.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: jondrums on September 17, 2020, 03:17:48 PM
we had a whole dragged out technical conversation about whether it would be possible to get the propeller system to "idle" along.  Some folks felt like the drag from the propeller is impossible to overcome since at a given speed, the propeller doesn't want to move any faster or any slower than its pitch.  I suggested that it might be possible to build a motor controller that could vary the RPM as needed to make sure there is no drag.  None of the existing motor controllers are designed to do this.  One can only hope the boost system can do it, but I really doubt it.  It isn't easy.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: Beasho on September 17, 2020, 05:20:36 PM
What about folding props like with RC powered gliders.  The props collapse along fuselage laying flat. 
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: Hdip on September 17, 2020, 05:50:24 PM
https://efoil.builders/

I'm in a whatsapp thread with the mad scientist in the orange hat in those pictures. Evan from Axis is using some of his stuff too. He has his own folding props that he's testing.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: Admin on September 18, 2020, 02:59:42 AM
Thanks guys,

Is this the one?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/racer23/boost-surfing-fin/posts/2935046

https://boostsurfing.com/preorder/

That looks great.  They have lots of adapters and super light 1.7 lbs.  You could use a couple if needed.  Is it powerful enough to catch swell without hand paddling?  That looks questionable in the videos but it would be nice.  It would be cool to pulse while already in a squat or on your knees to avoid a full pop up.

The big question is the power and the speed, is it enought ?

Developers said 2 units would sync up with controller and operate simultaneously.

To me the real beauty would be if you could get enough grunt to get you foiling on a small sinker board rather than a tow, bungee or winch.  Start submerged squatting in the straps and hit the button as your swell approaches.  It seems like having the torpedo as close to the board as possible and positioned above the front foil would be the best balanced and least obtrusive.  I could see this being great fun for spot surfing on Gorge swell.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: clay on September 18, 2020, 09:39:27 AM
Boost just sent out an email saying they are going to start shipping at the end of the month.   Just in time for fall swell, pretty stoked.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: jondrums on September 18, 2020, 12:43:36 PM
To me the real beauty would be if you could get enough grunt to get you foiling on a small sinker board rather than a tow, bungee or winch.  Start submerged squatting in the straps and hit the button as your swell approaches.  It seems like having the torpedo as close to the board as possible and positioned above the front foil would be the best balanced and least obtrusive.  I could see this being great fun for spot surfing on Gorge swell.

YES!  I hadn't considered this possibility and now hearing you say it, I totally agree.  Being able to run a tiny board with no swing weight and good weight balance but still get into waves early or get into non-breaking swell would be a game changer.  That's going to take a lot more than a boost fin unfortunately.  But there are readily available power tool options that would have plenty of short burst power and enough capacity to do that many times - and are quite lightweight.  I expect such a system could be build using the components in any number of ~1kW battery powered tools.  Waterproofing is going to be the main issue to solve.  All the existing efoils are designed for constant power draw and run-time in continuous mode.  This is a totally different application
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: surfcowboy on September 18, 2020, 12:46:13 PM
Check the YouTube videos from Bali. This thing will get you over the hump. For me itd make a sub-5 prone paddle in possible, if I could live down the ribbing.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: jondrums on September 18, 2020, 01:00:48 PM
you already SUP, and now you foil - I am pretty sure that means you can live down the ribbing
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: surfcowboy on September 19, 2020, 07:45:52 AM
Hahahahahaa. Comment of the year and the truest thing on the Zone.

The first week of wing foiling being blown into peoples boats was the latest blow to my ego. Theyd just look at me with such pity it was hilarious.

Thanks for the belly laugh.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on September 19, 2020, 08:02:17 AM
The first week of wing foiling being blown into peoples boats was the latest blow to my ego. Theyd just look at me with such pity it was hilarious.
Goll dang it, we've gotta a Zoner "Get Cowboy A GoPro" crowdfunding account...because why in the hell aren't we seeing all of these "adventures" on video? I can only imagine the looks on the boaters' faces when "wingman" comes a calling...LOL :o ;D

Not laughing at you, but rather with you cowboy...because I can picture myself doing the exact same things, and boat encounters is just another thing added to the ever growing list of "Why I don't wingding". :-\ :D
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: Admin on September 19, 2020, 08:54:17 AM
Check the YouTube videos from Bali. This thing will get you over the hump. For me itd make a sub-5 prone paddle in possible, if I could live down the ribbing.

I have no pride left. 

Boost from a YouTube response, "We tested it in the pool with a 150lb guy paddling at the same time on a 9' surfboard - top speed was 11 mph"

You could easily attach one of those stick on foil mounts to the board right under the front wing with two of these linked Boost units in there.  It would be an easy way to test.  We have some little boards that are pretty solid there.  Might have to try this.

This young fella clearly has a more than we would need so it is certainly possible to get a nice small setup for what we are thinking.  It would be cool to ease yourself to the surface and then give it a good pop timed with your swell.

skip to 2:48

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBKDYsAhiuc
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: Hdip on September 19, 2020, 08:59:33 AM
https://www.instagram.com/p/CFQWSt2ju4l/?igshid=1jr5rhyvh675v
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: surfcowboy on September 19, 2020, 07:36:47 PM
Slatch, 100% it was classic. 20 mph wind had me pinned to the bow of a 60 cruiser while the maintenance guys watched.

Hdip, that account is fire. Everything they post kills me.


I never really report the good however (its never as funny.) When I crashed after my first run on foil one of the ladies on the dock clapped and cheered. Learning surfing is mellower since every foiler still remembers the early days.

Yo! Ill be in Carlsbad for a week in like 7 days. We gotta go to San O!
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: tarquin on September 20, 2020, 01:10:54 AM
https://e-surfer.com/en/liftfoils-efoil-2019/?cookie-state-change=1600588324366
 The folding prop has been around for a while now in efoils.
 Some of the efoil home builds are amazing as well. I am sure you could just attach one higher up the mast as others have said.
 It's all new still and I think things will develop as people develop. Companies will only make things if there is a market though.
 A company in France has just patented a propulsion system that is built into the bulb on the keel of sailing boats. No prop at all. Think The hunt for Red October!
That's what you want in the fuselage of the foil.
 Or a foil like a sting ray that flaps and does all the work for you!
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: tarquin on September 20, 2020, 02:18:41 AM
Just wrote something but I timed out and I dont think it posted.
 The short version. Foiling has been around for longer than a lot of people think. Eric Tabarly was making foiling sail boats in the mid/early 70's. 2 great quotes from mad French sailors.
 " I only made 2 mistakes, I thought I was the first and I thought it would be easy! They were very big mistakes"
 " The only way to know is too try it. We must try it!"
 Something along those lines.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: tarquin on September 20, 2020, 02:31:29 AM
1920 was the first patent for a foiling sail boat.
 Yellow Pages that had the sailing speed record for a long time actually had tiny foils. They managed to keep it secret for years.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: MLB on September 21, 2020, 04:54:47 PM
It most certainly is interesting on flat water and almost everyone is interested IN them.  ;)

I was speaking specifically of a propeller mounted up high on the mast where it is out of the water once flying.  Obviously lots of people are riding the efoils in flat water

ahh, of course.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: tarquin on September 29, 2020, 11:20:01 PM
https://www.designboom.com/technology/hy-generation-electric-boat-propeller-without-axis-09-30-2020/
 Another French company. Maybe a mini version in the fuselage.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: PonoBill on September 30, 2020, 08:51:51 AM
There have been some impressive designs of fuselage-based impellers, none of which have adequate thrust. I was working on a fuselage-based thruster with my typical delusions of competency telling me I could do it better but lost I interest when I took stock of the limitations and realized that no, I couldn't. Impellers (jet pumps) are limited by their intake geometry and location. The good news is that the fuselage location is good--the deeper the intake is, the less subject to cavitation the impeller is. Cavitation is a big issue with impellers since any intake restriction reduces the NPSH (net positive suction head) and lowers the boiling point. Anyway, even my primitive calculations demonstrated that intakes that were big enough dictate a fuselage diameter large enough to add almost as much drag as a folded prop. The other big limitation is that electric motors that produce enough power do so by spinning at high rpm (horsepower = torque X RPM X a conversion factor), like 20,000 rpm or more. The impeller needs to spin much slower, which means you need an expensive axial gearbox. It all continues to go to shit from there.
Title: Re: E foil
Post by: surfcowboy on October 11, 2020, 05:08:02 AM
Rode an efoil today (custom prototype) it was really fun and really helpful. People were swapping out so I didnt want to take too long so I just did maybe 5-10 min but when asked, do you want to go a bit more. I said, no, that was a month of foil surfing right there. ;)

It was sized so I could start standing, so none of the hassles or knee starting, so my learning curve was shorter. My e-skate throttle experience transferred and so I got up on foil immediately and got little short 1 minute rides. By my 3rd or 4th ride I was able to slowly bank a turn and so it probably did save me a month of surfing as far as progression. I can see how and hour or two would put you in great position for foil surfing and (other than wave knowledge and managing the board and foil in and out of the water) I could see an efoil cutting months off your progression in 2, 1 hour sessions.

If you have the chance, definitely rent or demo one.
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