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The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Mike dubs on September 04, 2020, 01:14:58 AM

Title: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: Mike dubs on September 04, 2020, 01:14:58 AM
Hi guys,

Following on from another post I did.

Iím riding my 790 mainly now and my 1100 only when thereís no wind.

So my question is when Iím fully powered 4.5/3.5 weather what front foil smaller do I need to get? 679 or something else?

Cheers
Mike
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: obxDave on September 05, 2020, 06:26:12 AM
Why do you think you need a smaller front wing? Whatís the goal?
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: winged surfer on September 05, 2020, 06:54:28 AM
I also had the same problem:
Compared to the 790 Moses (which i love and make me progress a lot)  i was looking for a faster wing.. but i did not find anything on the Mosesí catalogue since the W1000 and W800 looks to radical for me and they told me they are not good for wave riding (even Kai use it for that but he can ride anything). So i followed Mr. Dwightís advice ;)
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: Mike dubs on September 05, 2020, 08:37:01 AM
OBX I want a smaller wing than the 790 for when Iím really powered in chop and I feel the 790 is too much foil, plus I like going fast.

Moses do need more mid/small size foils for Wingfoiling, so hopefully theyíre watching all the other companies.

Admin, mentioned some guy using a 679 foil at 80kg and liking it.
So just looking for some feedback.

Mike



Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: obxDave on September 05, 2020, 10:33:08 AM
OBX I want a smaller wing than the 790 for when Iím really powered in chop and I feel the 790 is too much foil, plus I like going fast.

Moses do need more mid/small size foils for Wingfoiling, so hopefully theyíre watching all the other companies.

Admin, mentioned some guy using a 679 foil at 80kg and liking it.
So just looking for some feedback.

Mike

Guess thatís a plan. Youíre top speed will certainly go up, as well as your stall speed and the speed needed to pump up on the foil. Iím assuming there is a law of diminishing returns for that upper end speed. The one time I see speed as really important are prone foilers trying to keep up with a fast moving wave, or the good ole speed junkies!  Good luck :)

The one time I think it makes
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: PonoBill on September 05, 2020, 07:13:21 PM
It would be handy if there were some way to cross-reference lift amount, but there really isn't. My goto foil right now is the Axis 860 which is 1212 CM projected area, but I'd guess it has a fairly high foil coefficient. I'm 214# as of this morning, and it's plenty of foil for me if the wind is good. I was up on it with a 3.5 F-one today but the wind was 30mph gusting to near 40. With a big wing I can get it up in 15+ wind, but it's less fun.

To whatever degree area is a good indicator of lift (not likely) the 790 looks huge to me, it's 1550 cm. My downwind/super light wind foils are the 101 at 1430 and the 1000 at 1310. The 679 is 990CM, which is quite a jump, but if you have wind for it and you're light enough, it's probably worth a try.


Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: Mike dubs on September 06, 2020, 02:58:52 AM
Thanks guys.

I checked with Gunnar, he thinks I should go to W800 , only 800 cm surface area but he says has loads of lift, stable and doesnít feel turbulence. Might need a bit more pumping, but when Iím well powered it shouldnít be a problem.

Weíll see👍

Mike
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: deja vu on September 09, 2020, 07:59:15 AM
Does the W800 (and W1000) work with the same fuselage as the 790?  I was under the impression these race foils worked with the long race fuselage.  There is someone on a different forum who is using the W1000 and claims that he loves it for winging but not for kiting (for which I think it was designed).  He says the W1000 has a ton of lift so I would think the W800 should be good to go as a winging foil.  I'm looking into these foils myself.
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: Mike dubs on September 09, 2020, 09:08:45 AM
No you need a different fuselage.

I contacted Gunnar, who said get W800, said it was great but needed different fuselage.

I also contacted Balz, who actually said I should get the 720. He said although small it lifts as well as the 800 and is really fast, he told me he clocked 50kph on it. It fits on same fuselage as 790 and cuts through chop turbulence.

So will get that with 420/421 stab. So my foil quiver will be W1100 for v light wind and no chop, 790 for most things and 720 for well powered, choppy days.

Mike
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: winged surfer on September 09, 2020, 10:29:39 AM
I tried yesterday the w800. I confirm it needs a different fuselage
Conditions : 20/25 knots
The foil is so FAST! and very stable but i was ecpecting more glide, When the glide ends it goes immediately down like a stone (but hey the foil is really small) and i did not like the tremble at high speed i felt on the stab 470 i used.
Maybe i should use a different stab.
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: deja vu on September 18, 2020, 06:28:17 AM
According to Balz Muller, Moses will soon be releasing a 1000 foil wing for free style, which I suspect will look and ride somewhat like its 720 but with more lift.
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: Mike dubs on September 18, 2020, 08:57:20 AM
I contacted Balz who was super helpful. I sold my W1100 as just didnít need it as I can get my 790 going early. He recommended the 720 which I got and used yesterday. Tiny wing but got going with couple of extra pumps on a decently powered 4.5. Fast and very lively, will need a few sessions to get used to it, but looks like a great foil for powered/ choppy days👍Mike
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: deja vu on September 18, 2020, 12:17:27 PM
Did he mention the new 1000 free style wing?  What do you weigh and what length of mast are you using?
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: Mike dubs on September 18, 2020, 12:40:23 PM
He said something was coming between 1100 and 790 but didnít elaborate. I weigh 75kg and use 82cm mast, 710 fuse, a 483 stab but getting 450 to use with my 790 and 720. Mike
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: wingdingjoe on September 21, 2020, 09:00:11 PM
Hey Moses Wing Gang!

This forum helped me so much the past year as I was trying to decide what gear to buy. COVID and gear scarcity in May changed my mind from Axis to Moses. Got a decent deal on W1100 and 790 and a demo Fanatic 5ft4.

DROVE TO THE gorge from Utah and really learned trial by fire style. The W1100 is a great tool light wind but actually very controllable in 25 knots even in Hatchery swell. 790 is dreamy smooth but SOMETIMES seems a bit slow.
Since my goal was to have just ONE MAST/FUSE setup for winging and kite foiling... I tried to kite with the 790 but even shimmed and with extra holes drilled in the carbon mast baseplate WAY TO MUCH lift for kiting.. So found a used /repaired 679 and bought.

Today... Now visiting family in Virginia.. Went to the ocean cause its blowing stink from Hurricane Teddy pulling the polar wind down.. Brrr... I was using my f1 4.2 and the 790 and kept breaching while gliding down the large swells so decided to FINALLY try the 679 for WING.

I thought I'd need help to plane off with such smaller surface area so moved mast forward.. MISTAKE!

This foil obviously wants Power and speed to lift... But since it was a gusty 20-25 knots I HAD those ingredients.. So the speed was definitely HIGHER but the lift generated seemed WAY MORE than the 790! Not really sure why..?? Is the foil itself angled somehow different (more bite/lift) then the 790?

Really had to I put feet very far forward... Too tired to go in and walk back to the car to get tools to slide mast backwards(aft)... So just rode forward on the board for my last hour... But I can attest that for my 85 kilos with the 4.2...the 679 gets up fairly easy in 20 knots and it's obviously way faster /looser/rises up to breach crazy fast with gusts /big waves/carvy/tippy/fun.

Can't wait to try with mast 3/4 back.. Maybe will shim the stab a bit as I ONLY have the 450 right now and I think that's contributing to the crazy lift with higher speed.

Can anyone suggest a smaller moses stab for the surf fuse that can work with 790 and 679?

Awesome day today though!
I thought knee starts were tough @ Rufus and the Hatch but... Holy Dawg!

The Atlantic Ocean during a storm was WAY WAY tougher! I think I could actually now go the full 8 seconds on a mechanical BULL after today's practice!

Gonna start wearing my spurs to the wing foiling sessions from now on.

Go big or go home!
Kyro Joe
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: obxDave on September 22, 2020, 03:58:22 AM
Your only other choices on a Moses stabilizer will be the 483 or the 400.  Donít think they make the 420 any more. Iíve never used the 400, but I assume it would be considered the race/speed version.

Looks like kite foils are really starting to overlap with Wing foils (not really in my case). For me the 679 would be a higher speed kite foil option over my tried and true 633. I doubt Iíd ever consider it for winging (stall speed too high). I have to chuckle because the 679 is 200 sq cm less than my 633 kite foil.  I can just about breach that 633 in a kite-360 and it just keeps chugging away. Definitely canít do that while winging :o

Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: wingdingjoe on September 22, 2020, 09:10:21 AM
You're totally right Dave... I got it ONLY thinking of kiting but of course we're all mad scientists at heart and I just HAD to try it yesterday I was so powered!

It worked! But yes you have to keep speed up... Was thinking of the Kai Lenny video when he decided he was going to start making his backflips... And he was using a tiny little foil... And just figured it was worth a shot.

In big choppy unorganized waves it definitely was not the best option but on a flatter more con distant sea I bet you could get used to the stall speed and really start to enjoy it.

So do you use the 400 stab with your 633 when kiting?
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: obxDave on September 22, 2020, 01:04:33 PM
So do you use the 400 stab with your 633 when kiting?
Nope, just the 450 and 483.  Iíll probably just stay with the 483 and sell the 450. The 450 is just a bit too draggy. Also probably gonna sell my 1100 front wing as well. It just doesnít have enough low end beyond my Gong Veloce XL, and isnít very carvy at all. I love having a wide speed range since I do tons of upwind transitions with high entry speed and low exit speed (regardless of whether the wind is light or cranking). I think the reason a lot of riders are happy with small wings in big wind is that they are really only jibing. Start tacking all the time and your perspective changes!

I understand your point about having overlapping gear for both kite foiling and winging. That was my goal as well.  Since I like the Gong Veloce XL as my go to all purpose foil wing for wingdinging, Iím having Jim Stringfellow make a fuselage adaptor to mate the Veloce to the Moses masts. So at least I donít have to use different masts, and I can get the weight down.  Right now I have my Veloce foil adapted to Axxis 19mm surf masts. Works great but weighs a bloody ton (except for the foil wings themselves). That should keep my happy for awhile,......other than splurging on a 70 L FSM board this winter.......
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: omg on September 23, 2020, 12:36:06 AM
Dave,

great idea abt adaptor for Moses mast and Gong stuff. However, would it be even better to make a fuselage which takes the front wing of Gong and otherwise it's Moses compatible ie. mast and stab. This way the very heavy gong fuse would be gone, and you could use moses stabs where you have the option to shim them?

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: obxDave on September 23, 2020, 02:55:32 AM
Dave,

great idea abt adaptor for Moses mast and Gong stuff. However, would it be even better to make a fuselage which takes the front wing of Gong and otherwise it's Moses compatible ie. mast and stab. This way the very heavy gong fuse would be gone, and you could use moses stabs where you have the option to shim them?

Thoughts?

I guess I quite donít understand what youíre saying. Do you mean take a Moses 710 fuselage and modify it to accept a Gong front wing? I have thought about that, but other than the weight, I really like how the Veloce 47 stab feels with the Veloce XL front wing. That front wing is extremely low volume (just 1.35 l, way thinner than just about anything out there for itís volume!) so it will be very sensitive to the stabilizer itís mated to. Maybe it would work just fine mated to a Mose 483 stab, maybe it would take a lot of tweaking. Pratrice seems to do a really good job designing both front wing and rear stab to work well together. That is what I also liked about the Pro XL and itís mated stabilizer.  Hence the reason for going the way I did. We might try and bore out the new fuselage in certain locations (and replug) to get some weight out without compromising strength. Weíll see. Not there yet

I know the Gong Al fuselage is just big and clunky but Iím not sure how much added weight it has compared to the Moses 710. I recall seeing examples of Gong fuselages that have been bored out and plugged to reduce weight.
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: omg on September 23, 2020, 01:08:57 PM
ok, thanks for the feedback.

When do you expect the Stringy fuselage to be ready, please? And any idea of the price?
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: obxDave on September 27, 2020, 12:37:22 AM
ok, thanks for the feedback.

When do you expect the Stringy fuselage to be ready, please? And any idea of the price?
No idea of timing or price. Iíve worked with Jim before and totally trust him, and Iím not in a rush to get it back right away. He does awesome work. I did send him my Pro XL front and rear wings to use as a template to ensure a good fit.  Gong uses the same connection dimensions for all their surf foils.  In the meantime Iím fine with my current rig.
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: deja vu on September 29, 2020, 08:15:15 AM
Here are some innovative products that extend to use of Moses masts and fuselages and allow you to interchange them -- IMO, Moses should have done this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8eEcTANTCk
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: Mike dubs on September 30, 2020, 07:02:20 AM
Awesome, I want a super fuse and an adapter and yes Moses should have designed this.

Plus made my first gybe and wave ride today and was super close on 4/5 other gybes?

Mike
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: Admin on October 01, 2020, 02:56:57 AM
Plus made my first gybe and wave ride today and was super close on 4/5 other gybes?

Mike

You should have started there.  That is awesome.  How load was your scream?  :)

Once you have made one, you have it.  It just working out the details now.

SWEET!
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: Mike dubs on October 01, 2020, 04:40:31 AM
Haha, thanks Admin. Getting more coordinated each session. Hopefully tomorrow I will have some more success. Trying to get the gybes nailed before winter, so Iím not falling in each turn.👍 mike
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: obxDave on October 01, 2020, 11:48:45 PM
Here are some innovative products that extend to use of Moses masts and fuselages and allow you to interchange them -- IMO, Moses should have done this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8eEcTANTCk

Iíll bet both those new fuselages are Jim Stringfellow products. I have one his Moses fuselage adapters for my Moses 633 rig, and itís been perfect. Itíll be cool to see what he comes up with for a Gong wing adapter.
Title: Re: Size down from Moses 790
Post by: Mike dubs on October 02, 2020, 05:44:57 AM
Back on the Moses wing 790, I used the 450 stab today instead of the 483 Iíve been using up til now and it felt great. Sometimes with the 483 Iíve struggled to stop breaching at speed, but had no such issues on the 450 due to reduced lift.

Was a very choppy x offshore 20-35 today definitely made easier with the 450. Will keep the 483 for lighter winds.

Mike
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