Standup Zone Forum

The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: surfcowboy on August 29, 2020, 08:54:25 PM

Title: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on August 29, 2020, 08:54:25 PM
First day out on wing ding today. Light wind, maybe 8 mph Iíd guess? (I have no real sense yet but going on weather report.) Probably too much swell (and shore break) but new stuff, you know. First thing to note is that I surfed before and then the wind came up and instead of heading home, I went down the road and got in again. This is what I wanted when I got into foiling.

Anyway, my 6í6Ē x 28Ē foil SUP turns out to be a great wing board to learn on. Got advice to skip the plain SUP and it was right on. Got out and without any wind experience figured out the ďmove the wing to point the boardĒ thing. (Thank you Zone and YouTube) after 10 min on my knees I was over it. (And creaky in the knees and ankles) so I figured it was time to fall. I saw a video recently where a guy actually started with his front foot flat and back knee down and that seemed like the best for me. It was. I popped the wing up, then without waiting popped the back leg up and was standing (and surprised.) I cruised for a couple hundred yards then luffed the wing and sat down. Not enough wind to get on foil but I got to get the feel and even see how a wing pump can keep you from falling, basic stuff like that. Ok, now, toe side. Turns out thatís easy... if you just sit on the board haha. I could do it kneeling but really couldnít stand 8n the conditions. Maybe next time.

I ended up doing maybe a quarter mile walk of shame but I was surprised at how long I managed to hold out as long as I did. I joked with the lifeguards on the way back, theyíd been watching me and talking on the radios about me as I drifted past 3 of them lol. I told them about winging and thanked them for not calling the boat on me. I explained that if the see a new guy not to panic, we just blow into shore and walk back.

Anyway, I call it a win and I actually liked it. I totally get why all you guys like it. I think itís going to be a fun addition to the kit. Now, expect a thread on taking care of these things. So weird and messy coming back to a beach and packing up, wtf? Hahaha. 

Now to get COVID under control so we can shuttle again. Maybe these new 15 min tests will be an answer? ďDude, hit the local Walgreens and Iíll pick you up.Ē Iím already planning routes.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on August 29, 2020, 09:06:19 PM
Going upwind is MUCH easier than going downwind. You don't really need a shuttle. I do five-mile upwind/downwinders a couple of times a week, no sweat.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on August 29, 2020, 09:32:33 PM
I just gotta get this thing on foil then. I have to say, itís at least fun while you are learning. SUP surfing and foil surfing were pretty frustrating. Maybe itís the novelty of this but even sucking at it is fun.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on August 30, 2020, 04:23:14 AM
Maybe itís the novelty of this but even sucking at it is fun.

Hah!  No, man, the whole thing is silly kid fun.  There is always something new to suck at.  It sounds like you did fantastic.  Getting off your knees, making runs, trying to stay upwind and without wind experience.  That is a lot.  Stoked that you are started!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Phils on August 30, 2020, 07:29:21 AM
Sounds like a great first session.  You will get this quickly.  Met someone yesterday who is learning with no wind or water board sports experience who is starting to foil after a handful of sessions so you will have a much easier path.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on August 30, 2020, 07:42:28 AM
Thx guys, yeah I didnít plan on it but by the end I was itching to get on foil. Might take Hdips advice and hit long beach to get a smooth water day.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Thatspec on August 30, 2020, 10:25:26 AM
Good to hear Cowboy, every session there'll be a revelation ;D
You'll need significant wind though, in the beginning too much is better!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on August 31, 2020, 02:07:14 PM
Belmont Shores in Long Beach was fun. Wind was actually over 15mph, gusting  up to almost 20MPH, (thx to a kiteboard instructor who can estimate better than I.) So TallDude, there is some winging wind up here in LA County. (Also like 50 kiteboarders out and a TON of people taking lessons so kiting is still growing it seems.) I think there was one other winger, but we can launch anywhere so there's that.


It was choppy as all get out, as I said, I'm still not really "down" with the wind just yet. But I got up several times heelside. That's really easy now for me. Managed to get going toe side (harder) and then did the world's most hilarious gybe at less than a walking pace. Really, there's room for a hilarious YT channel of just wing kooks learning. It's got to look hilarious.

The chop really made it hard to pump as you need to time the pump and the chop and the wing pump and... it was all a bit much. But really, the walk of shame is the biggest incentive to get better and get on foil. Though I am working on something in the garage that I think will make some folks on here happy. More to come.

Hoping for some foil surfing this week though. Enough of that devil wind for now! haha. Back to the secret foil spot.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on September 01, 2020, 01:31:56 AM
Cowboy, what wing are you using and what is your foil setup?  What's your weight?
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 01, 2020, 08:22:19 AM
Hey, yeah, my stats.

F-One Swing 5m, Self-shaped 6í4Ē x 28Ē board, Gong Surf XL (2200? I gotta look that up) Iím 63kg/138 lbs.

I suspect that BigMtnís advice to put the foil all the way forward is the missing link here. I went to my balance point but had another inch. (Being careful.) Also, honestly, I really am not as clear as I should be about powering up so thereís some learning curve. And then the crazy chop where Iíve been learning is rough. Iíve got a spot Iíll be visiting soon that gets wind in the teens and is small enough to not get crazy chop on it. I suspect a week there will put me solidly on foil. (That and access to a boat to tow.) but I suspect the gear is right on, just need a better sailor.

Also, my wife and I laugh every time I use that term for some reason. Iím fully claiming ďsailingĒ now or wing dinging. I refuse to let this become too cool or view it as anything more than pure fun.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on September 02, 2020, 01:06:47 AM
Cowboy, You have it made! 

That setup will foil you in very light wind.  Smooth wind and smooth water are your best buddies to get the feel for it.  15 mph will be awesome for you. 

Here are a couple of unrequested :) thoughts that may be helpful that I would want to know if I were starting without any windsport experience.

1. (and 2 and 3).  Pump that Swing to 10 PSI.  It will bulge between the seams.  Indulge the bulge.  This will make your wing pumping 100 times (fake news) more efficient with you doing nothing else differently.

4.  Don't pump the board at all yet when you are taking off.  In fact, focus on disrupting the board as little as possible.  Mistimed board pumps (and they all will be at first-too much other stuff to focus on) will stall your forward motion (which is all you will need to get foiling). 

5. Practice pumping the wing on land for a few minutes.  You initially want to to pull so that your pumps are directing the board mostly forward.  Flow over the foil is what is going to lift you.  Reach forward with both arms and slightly up, pull back and slightly down with both arms and give a little more kick inwards with your back arm at the end.  For us mid to light weight riders a few of those is all it takes.  You can ease the board up when it has speed with a little back foot pressure or you can do a little compress decompress. 

6.  Wait for a gust.  Don't beat yourself up pumping in a lull.  Your total pumping is going to take 2 or 3 seconds.  If it feels like your are pulling through the wind rather than getting purchase stop and wait for a better gust.

7. Turn the nose very slightly downwind.  You can use your ears to find the wind direction.  Turn your head into the wind and when you feel it equally on both ears you are looking directly upwind.  Your reach is 90 degrees from there.    A good angle to start at is 5 more degrees downwind.  Starting a little downwind will help you pick up speed and will help you from slamming into chop.  The chop can actually help you a little going slightly downwind.  Too far downwind and you won't be able to gain speed.

8.  There is going to be a fast stance position on your board.  The board will accelerate best on the surface when you are on it.  You want to position your foil so you can take off and ride right from that position without having to shuffle. 
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 06, 2020, 11:32:06 PM
Thank you. This is all good stuff for newbs.

Thatís wild about the psi. Iíll try that. Being new to wind stuff this is the stuff I donít know. Violating the warranty is always the first step to leveling up. ;)

Number 4 makes a ton of sense. I described my technique as a monkey f-ing a football recently. Iím pretty sure I am doing more harm than good.

Iím headed to a spot in San Diego in a week or two that should have smooth water with decent wind so a few days in a row will hopefully get me sorted. The wing pumping to move the foil forward is another thing I wouldnít have guessed. Iíll update the thread and any other new guys post up here too. Trying to collect good starter info in these threads.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: bigmtn on September 07, 2020, 12:15:07 AM
Just do everything admin says... Buddy was pumping the board like crazy, and getting frustrated he couldn't get up on foil. I told him to stop pumping the board, only pump wing. Once you feel the board trying to come up, then you can do a couple pumps. He tried it, and immediately was able to get on foil. The extra few psi really help too!

Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on September 07, 2020, 06:28:31 AM
Violating the warranty is always the first step to leveling up. ;)

Hah!  I know.  It can be unnerving but I can guarantee that if you have a non-defective wing that 10 PSI will not harm it.  Chan and I have shared a Swing quiver for year.  Always at 10 or above.  Gorge, Mexico, Baja.  They stay inflated in the sun even on 100 degree days, no problems.  The only Swings I have heard of bursting were from a strut bulge issue at MFG suggested PSI's.  It sounds like they had a bad batch at some point.  Those should be warrantied regardless. 

You can always take off wing pumping alone, even on small foils and small boards.  Sometimes it helps.  Pumping well may get you flying faster in some situations but it can cripple you if it is incorrect.  Watching new riders here I see two very common issues that come from what I see as well intentioned but damaging advice.  1. Superfluous board stomping.  Less is more.  None is fine.  Getting airborn is not a freestyle move.  2. Heading too far downwind.  I see a lot of new riders who are pumping to start while heading almost straight downwind.  A little downwind (a few degrees) is all you are looking for. 

Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 09, 2020, 07:43:55 AM
Ok, this weekend Iíll be in San Diego (lookout Tom!) Iím going to hit Mission Bay for some smooth water and a spot with an easy walk back. But hopefully Iíll get on foil and can stay upwind. Once I have that Iíll be able to step off the boat onto my board so hopefully multiple sessions and time on water will get me dialed.

Wind clock question. Iíve been trying to stay at 9pm (goofy, going heelside.) when you guys say I should turn a few degrees downwind to get flying what are yíall meaning on the clock? Iíd assume 8 but more?
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on September 09, 2020, 11:09:38 AM
You light guys have it easier. I have to pump EVERYTHING to get up on smaller foils. One strand of grass, a screwy angle, or just getting tired of pumping and I'm stuck on the surface. The angle is critical for me, I doubt it will be for you, but basically I start off going slightly upwind to get some wing pressure, then turn gently to 90 degrees while pumping the wing like an injured chicken and sometimes a little past it to take advantage of swells and a little better pumping angle. But if you turn just a little too far downwind two bad things happen--your speed subtracts somewhat from the wind speed, and the wing winds up more in front of you, which is a shit angle for effective pumping.

I start off just pumping the wing until I get close to liftoff speed, then I start hopping up and down like a lunatic. I don't think my board pumping is all that effective, but unweighting the board lets it come up a bit, and any time you disconnect from the surface you accelerate. I often skip a few times before I get solidly up, but as long as I don't hit a lull I get up reliably.

I watch Admin pop up effortlessly with a dinky wing and a 760 foil and just hate his guts. 30 pounds of weight difference is a big deal.

Chan gets up in nothing with zero effort after traveling about four inches. Disgusting.

Incidentally, you don't really want smooth water. One of our launch areas (Stevenson) has a long stretch of smooth water, and I stick to it like I had no foil at all. Chop is your friend, and a nice, chunky boat wake can pop my board off the surface and into the low drag/high acceleration mode like I had a jato bottle. As soon as you can get speed up, coming smoothly up onto the foil is simple. At low speeds I have to increase my takeoff angle which often results in a foil stall--especially with the dinky 860.

Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 09, 2020, 08:26:40 PM
Noted on the slight chop. I just donít need 2í wind chop slapping the nose.

You may have told me something critical about angle down wind. Iíd turn downwind and lose speed. Iím betting I went too far. I tried for 90į to wind but would get lost.

On the pump, Iím betting if I just get moving and hop once to ease drag Iíll go.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on September 10, 2020, 04:01:29 AM
Wind clock question. Iíve been trying to stay at 9pm (goofy, going heelside.) when you guys say I should turn a few degrees downwind to get flying what are yíall meaning on the clock? Iíd assume 8 but more?

Hi Cowboy, it is more like 8:45 or (3:15) if the wind is at 12:00.  It is pretty subtle but it helps a lot.  You will feel like your wing pumps translate more into forward motion and it will minimize the chop.  If you head too far downwind it will make it harder to gain speed and you will also start dragging your lower air wing tip.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Phils on September 10, 2020, 06:40:46 AM
Lots of good detailed advise here about wing pumping.   I usually wait to pump the board when it starts to feel light (getting some lift).  Not sure it matters at that point, but gives arms a break sooner.   I have also found that when the waves have some steepness, turning downwind and using the down ward angle of the water facilitates a quick liftoff as the water disappears from the bottom of your board.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 12, 2020, 09:13:34 PM
Mission Bay today. Not enough wind but it was fun to be out. Flat water walks of shame are so much easier. I just pushed the board upside down in front of me in 6Ē of water and pulled the foil behind.

The Robbie Naish waist deep method from his video seems way harder.

Not enough wind to get on foil (est around 10mph which might work when Iím good but not now) but I started to get how to angle the foil and hold some ground. Itís absurdly easy to schlog. People should buy those Slingshot stick on dagger boards. Iím thinking of putting one on my inflatable for my mother in law and nephews to use.

Now, letís see if I can get in the water before the wind dies tomorrow. But that nice lunch outside on the patio of the Catamaran Resort was probably needed more after half a year locked down in LA.

Must stop walking and paddling. Must stay upwind soon. But itís session 3 so Iíll chill out and hope for wind.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 14, 2020, 08:13:56 PM
Yup, itís the wind. I got on foil!!! Still not high wind but maybe 12-15 mph and more than enough for my light butt. Maybe 5 sec on foil and then over-foiled and bailed. Oh, now I know why wind wingers have their back feet in front of the masts.

Iím going to scoot forward tomorrow and see how that goes before I move the mast back. I slammed it forward like bigmtn said and yup, it worked.

One note for those who go behind me. When the wind gusts and itís cranking you can put it more overhead and it just pulls you up. I did this by mistake but a guy told me about this after and it makes sense.

Admin, yes, wait for it and then it just happens. A couple of pumps but mostly just the right conditions and direction. I am also learning all the ways to hold the wing and do different things. When is that YouTube video coming? No one really talks about angle of attack and fore/aft position and it makes a huge difference. Even that guy in the sailing mag said, that mostly they let people figure this stuff out lol. Letís move beyond that, right?

Tomorrow Iíll try to schlog upwind from the boat and out into the marina. But today I did a mini downwinder with my wife dropping me off maybe a quarter mile across this little bay and me running back and forth a couple of times before I lost ground and pulled into the marina. But itís a straight shot in to the boat so I just cruise in and pull right up to the back deck and step onboard. Great little working vacation. Iím loving being able to flat water paddle in am and then wing on my lunch break. I might not even drive to a surf break unless I get too tempted to try that smaller foil wing Iíve been sitting on.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 15, 2020, 07:25:09 PM
Today the wind was fully powered, the foil was back 3/4Ē in the box and it all came together for 2 solid foil runs. Not long but I brought one down on purpose and crashed out of one. Really good feeling.

Iím curious about starting in direct onshore winds. Am I right that thatís pretty hard and you just need to paddle out and get yourself some room to run along shore til you can angle up a bit?

Also, when schlogging I can make it up wind on toeside but not heelside. I figure thereís some trick but Iíve not sorted it. Since I can foil more and more on heelside I guess Iíll just deal lol. Hoping to get decent length runs by end of week. This lunch break wing session schedule is working well as I donít have time to get exhausted.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on September 16, 2020, 02:20:57 AM
Stoked Cowboy!  That is amazing progress. 

2400 is a very big foil at 130 lbs.  Awesome because it will pop you right up but possibly a little hard to tame when you are up and flying (particularly when you are more powered and in gusts).  This is a gift, it comes with a price.  :)  You are going to end up with both feet in front of the mast on that kit a lot of the time.  When you mention bringing the wing overhead to control gusts and feeling that uplift, that also has the side effect of taking some of your body weight off the foils.  When you really start overpowering this can feel very wild at first. 

It is likely best to put toeside riding aside for a while.  It will be much easier to learn to foil heelside in both directions and it is valuable to know that.  Riding toeside while schlogging is not a super valuable skill and you are better to schlog heelside in both directions.  You will point more easily and you will be set to foil up when your gust comes.

When you are foiling on these wingfoil setups you can point incredibly high into the wind.  Much higher than on windsurfing gear, etc.  That may take some sessions but even at first going a few degrees upwind may feel most stable and comfortable. 

The reason you don't hear many tips on body and wing positions for points of sail is that it is highly situational.   Like you mentioned you may need to be more overhead when overpowered.  You may be low and locked (more of a windsurfing position) when you are right in the wing's core wind range.  A generality is that when you shift the wing back (towards the tail of the board) you will point upwind.  Wing shifted forward towards the nose turns you downwind.  This is very three dimensional, though, and there are a lot of other subtleties that you will feel that will make that work. 

Keep doing what you are doing.  You are making great progress and each foiling reach is a tutorial in itself. 


Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 16, 2020, 06:59:16 AM
Thx, and yes, each reach is so instructional. Iím really glad for my time in waves so I can be present when on foil and think clearly about whatís happening.

Sage advice about toe side and yes, after years of snowboarding, skating, and surfing without switch skills, Iím working on it. This sounds like a good plan.

As to trimming the foil, that 3/4Ē move back got me really in a nice place. But after trying my Curve M in the surf Iím for sure adding a smaller ďbigĒ wing and will use the XL Rise for teaching buddies or sell it off. Eventually Iíll start playing with high aspect Iím sure. (Nice thing about Gong, ~$250_$300 wings.)

Iíve got a few more days here. Daily sessions help for sure. And when Iím home Iím going to work out a shuttle with my wife and get a few miles under my belt.

I wonder if Apple knows how many iWatches offshore sports have sold? lol
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: ceej on September 17, 2020, 05:28:47 AM
I've been enjoying reading your progress, surfcowboy. I was building my wing board around the same time as you and am on a similar wing foil learning curve so reading along with all your progress has been helpful and entertaining. Hoping I can hijack your thread a little bit with some technique questions of my own...

I am up to about session 10 or 11, and am able to get up on foil in both directions fairly consistently and zig zag across the lake. I am using a slingshot v2 6.4m wing and a slingshot 84cm sup foil. I'm 6'3 190lb.  I still need a fairly strong breeze to get going and I'm guessing the wind speed window can be lowered a lot with better technique.

I come from a surfing background, and have never been on foil before this. I found riding switch stance easier because I didn't have to overcome trying to ride the foil like it is a surfboard. I am still able to pump up onto foil a bit better in my normal surfing stance, but once on foil switch feels just as good as regular to me at this point.

Most of my questions are about holding the wing. My most comfortable position is with my front hand on the "transfer handle" that runs perpendicular to the boom and the forward most rear handle. This makes the wing easiest to control for me, but I am assuming just because that is what I have started with and have practiced the most with.

When I move my front hand back to the forward handle that is in line with the boom, should my palm be facing up or down? Would it ever change based on what I am doing?

Am i missing out on available power by not using the handles further back on my back hand?  Or am I just not able to point as high?

I've completed two non foiling jibes out of many attempts. My current sequence is to turn downwind, switch the wing in my hands and then switch my feet. I usually come off at the feet switching part. I think i just need practice here but would take any tips.

Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 17, 2020, 06:13:47 PM
Ceej,

Thx for hopping in. I set these up so weíd create an easy way to track beginner issues and you are right on time.

Adminís comment about wing positions being relative made me think.

Iíll just add what little I know and congratulations on consistently getting on foil. Thatís my next short term goal on the water.

For me, on a swing with no transfer handle, Iíve had to learn to fly the wing a bit more I suspect. But the rear handle is my source of power. I rarely use the forward handle as I can feel the wing power up when I move my hand back. But, yes, control is an issue in the early stages. Keeping the front up and the tip out of the water is a huge challenge and causes most of my falls.

Iíd like to hear more about what I see as the three main positions (please guys add in if weíre missing some.

Low with strut/boom almost level like a wind surfer - I never use this for now.  Seems like only experienced folks do this?

Mid (shoulder high?) with the strut /boom at diagonal-  This is my main position I use.

Slightly overhead angled - this is my full power take off and get on foil position for right now but I can only do it when wind is at 15mph or so.

Overhead depowered with one hand- this would be the gybe position, though I get to this sometimes when the wind leaves and Iíve been in the slight overhead powered position.

For all of these I can do them with the front handle (not leading edge handle) and the second handle, but with less power than front and 3rd (back) handle. This tracks with all Iíve read and seen online.

There are really no videos on this and I get that admin is likely right, that itís so conditional. But it seems like we should start to define and discuss the most common ones so beginners have a path. I use what Iíve read here on the water all the time and try things out.

What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: bigmtn on September 17, 2020, 07:18:08 PM
F-One swing, I only use the front handle and furthest back of the 2 back handles. Leading edge handle I use if I'm fully depowered trying to ride a wave.  I only use the forward one of the 2back handles, middle handle, when I miss grab while doing a jibe... But I'm no expert, that's just what feels comfortable.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 17, 2020, 08:13:33 PM
This tracks with my experience as well. I only use it on my way to the back one if I miss it.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on September 18, 2020, 01:41:31 AM
There are really no videos on this and I get that admin is likely right, that itís so conditional. But it seems like we should start to define and discuss the most common ones so beginners have a path. I use what Iíve read here on the water all the time and try things out.

What do you guys think?

Hi Cowboy,

Shut me up if you already know this stuff but some of the beginner kiting stuff may help with wing position.  It is really the same for the wing minus the lines.  You are exposing the wing to the full force of the wind when it is locked and low.  As the wing changes position in that wind window you are spilling air to various degrees and lessen that power. 

When you are lightly powered it can be really helpful to lower the wing.  That is fast and efficient but it is also easier to catch wingtips there and you are the most exposed to gusts. You also have to be able to translate that power into forward speed or it will fling you.  Overhead and you are spilling most of your air.  That is pretty much for gusts, when you have become majorly overpowered, going downwind, etc.  As you can see in the image below, the wind window is fully 3 dimensional.  Where you have the wing positioned relative to your body and board is largely going to determine your point of sail.  You are also making subtle adjustments by sheeting in and out which allow those positions. 

On the Swings I use the front and back strut handles only.  I really hope that they extend those a little in V2.  An extra few inches of handle length would go a long way towards perfecting those wings.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/hRN2FMwbnro/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 18, 2020, 01:00:29 PM
No, no, keep it coming. This thread is for non wind folks so kite knowledge is appreciated.

That also tracks, the angle I mean, as the tip I got was to power up with pumps and when thereís a gust go a little higher to lighten the load on board.

As a beginner too Iím taking safety over full power as that tip drag is an instant fall. So Iíll play with this when I go out in a bit. Iíll have good 10-15mph today. Hoping I know enough now to pop up on foil earlier.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 19, 2020, 07:41:21 AM
Oh, so thatís what youíre all so stoked about...

Flew for real yesterday. Probably 45 seconds to a minute. Long enough to see that the wing is super stable once up, the speed is amazing, you can totally play with the altitude in a controlled way.

Not only is this a great feeling on its own, but itís going to give me what I hoped for, long foil rides so I can dial the foil better for surfing.

For tracking, 6 sessions and solid 15 mph wind is what it took me to get to a decent heelside (goofy) run. Working on switch stance as well but have yet to foil switch.

Thx guys, especially admin and bigmtn. Getting that foil all the way forward helped a ton. Iíve moved it back a bit but it would have taken forever to fly if you hadnít told me to overcompensate. Oh, and getting foil position right in the box feels amazing. Itís almost like you can do no wrong.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on October 18, 2020, 09:01:43 PM
Ok, so Iím winging once a month lol. Iíll dial it by 2030. But LA has a lot of good things, just not so much Fall wind. Iíll catch up in the Spring.

Ok, so 2 hours out and winging is the most physically demanding sport Iíve ever done. Literally every muscle is used. Headmount mentioned it this week but I felt it today.

Light wing in Long Beach 9-10 mph but it started gusting after an hour. Right as I was starting to feel tired lol. Got up on foil a few times heelside and noticed something. When Iím pumping the wing (not the board so much) As the board gets moving I find my weight is way back so when I come onto foiling have to catch up and pull myself forward. If I try to stay more upright I donít get going. Is this just more light wing messing with me?

In good news, I was able to stay upwind more this time. It gets better. Apparently walking isnít actually part of the sport. Who knew?

Also, Iíve been riding my e-skateboard switch (with the speed dialed all the way down to granny low) and that seemed to make me way more comfortable in switch stance today.

I really feel like Iím getting this, if I could do it more than once a month lol. But I do love winging, I can tell it suits me already. I like being offshore and even at Belmont where thereís a ton of kiters no one is in your way or you in theirs like surfing. Also, I love cruising on a big wing. Just parking up on foil and feeling that powder skiing feeling.

Iím going to try to hit a lake soon, just for the novelty I think too.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 19, 2020, 04:20:44 AM
I often see new wingers weighting the back foot, or leaning back to make the board lift off the water. This results in the board climbing too steeply and flying near stall. Then itís unstable and they fall. It also gives the feeling you need to catchup with the board.

Bouncing the board is best. Unweighting the front foot and pressing again. The board will pop up breaking surface suction and shoot forward onto to foil with you the rider, in a balanced position, and at a good flying speed, with better board stability. This is where short wing boards win. Otherwise, wait for more wind and just stand there in the right spot, and wait for speed to make it happen, smoothly, no leaning back.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on October 19, 2020, 04:21:51 AM
Yeah!  A new addict. 

9-10 is tough.  When we say 10, that is what is reading as our average windspeed.  There will always be gusts and lulls above an below the average.  If 10 is your top gust, that is painful.  If it is 10 with gusts to around 14, that can work.  It is much nicer when it is 14 with gusts to say, 18.  That is terrific wind to learn in. 

I missed your post from Sept.  That sounds great.  A minute is a lot of flying! 

What you wrote about having your weight too far back is a really big part of getting this sorted.  You want to feel centered so that you can put back foot pressure on the foil without feeling like you are behind it.  If you feel like your kit is angling up in front of you when you take off, your body is too far back.  That is really hard to recover from.  You want to be balanced and able to apply that pressure with a little shift of your hips to pressure that back foot.  It isn't a stomp or a body shift.  This happens a lot when it is light because you want to be flying.  If you don't have the speed, just shifting your hips won't get you airborn, so you tend to lean back in an effort to fly.  That may get you some lift but it wont last.  You will plop back down or worse.  :)

The key in light wind is to be selective.  Crab slightly upwind until you see your gust.  Look upwind at the water and wait for the darkest cat's paw.  When it is almost on you, center your body, sheet in to turn a little down wind and start some slow ease-in wing pumps even before the gust gets to you.  Do that gently just to get the board tracking.  Then when the gust hits you give some progressively deeper and more powerful wing pumps.   Wait until you have decent forward motion to apply back foot pressure.  If you go to early you are going to stall and will need to start again.  Lift off at a low angle.  All you want to do at first is free the board.  Don't worry about climbing right to max height.  Once it is clear you are home free.  Then you can climb up faster or pump up to height.  In short, weight centered, decent speed and ease it up. 

You can and will modify all of that in many ways over time but this is the core takeoff for light and mid weight people. 
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on October 19, 2020, 09:08:25 AM
For me, the key to light wind foiling is bouncing on the board. In conditions like yesterday here in the Gorge I have my biggest f-one (6M) and my biggest foil wing (Axis 1150) As far as wing pumping goes, I do pretty much exactly as Admin describes, but when I get a little board speed going I jump up and down on the board. Nothing so organized as trying to pump the board, it's a straightforward bouncing like a lunatic and continuing to pump. When the board comes off the surface I shorten the wing pumps up so I'm pumping quicker, with short strokes, and I shift my weight forward to get the nose "over the hump", shoving forward with my feet at the same time.

If all that sounds complicated and planned, it is and it isn't. I'm sure I look more than a bit manaical getting up, but at 215 with at least 5 pounds of wetsuit I need all the leaping about i can manage to get up on the foil.

As soon as I'm up I turn upwind and pump a few times (wing and board) to pick up some speed. With light wind, the apparent wind is critical. When I turn downwind I expect that heavy 6M wing to hang down and try to drop a tip in the water. I can't flag the wing to the side or behind me because there isn't enough wind to hold the wing up. So I keep it as high as I can and just look for swells to accelerate on.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on October 19, 2020, 02:04:49 PM
Thanks guys. This is exactly what I was feeling. The description of the angled board is where I was.

Itís one of the downsides of a positive thing. Iím small and nimble so I can adjust for bad behavior. Iíll start working on staying centered. When I first get up I hilariously go up and down while I get myself centered (and can fall during this.)

I am noticing in knee high chop that my nose buries which, yeah, what can you do, right? This is probably going to push me towards a shorter board sooner rather than later to fit in better.

Iím being careful to not try to pump too much until/unless Iím already off the water. But the bounce makes sense. Really, itís about conditions. I now feel that my next 15mph day Iíll be up. When I got on foil I know the wind was gusting to at least near 15.

So, summary for those following, donít get too far back on your board.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on October 19, 2020, 02:06:24 PM
Next beginner topic will be wing placement fore/aft. Iíll draft up some supporting gfx to prevent confusion as I think this one will get dicey otherwise lol.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: deja vu on October 19, 2020, 02:38:14 PM
For me, the key to light wind foiling is bouncing on the board. In conditions like yesterday here in the Gorge I have my biggest f-one (6M) and my biggest foil wing (Axis 1150) As far as wing pumping goes, I do pretty much exactly as Admin describes, but when I get a little board speed going I jump up and down on the board. Nothing so organized as trying to pump the board, it's a straightforward bouncing like a lunatic and continuing to pump. When the board comes off the surface I shorten the wing pumps up so I'm pumping quicker, with short strokes, and I shift my weight forward to get the nose "over the hump", shoving forward with my feet at the same time.

If all that sounds complicated and planned, it is and it isn't. I'm sure I look more than a bit manaical getting up, but at 215 with at least 5 pounds of wetsuit I need all the leaping about i can manage to get up on the foil.

As soon as I'm up I turn upwind and pump a few times (wing and board) to pick up some speed. With light wind, the apparent wind is critical. When I turn downwind I expect that heavy 6M wing to hang down and try to drop a tip in the water. I can't flag the wing to the side or behind me because there isn't enough wind to hold the wing up. So I keep it as high as I can and just look for swells to accelerate on.

Sort of like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebDKKpOZnw4
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on October 20, 2020, 08:59:59 AM
Sort of like this?

No. Exactly like that. If that guy was a geezer and his wing was an F-one then it would be me. Note the way he used the wind chop to break the surface just before he got fully up. If it wasn't for handy swells to pop over I'd need another 5mph to get up.

Apparent wind is the name of the game in light wind. If you're angled close to the wind angle you're getting the most wind across your wing: Wind speed plus board speed. Of course if you want to get back to where you started you can't just go upwind, so you can pump both the wing and the foil to keep your speed up, or take short turns upwind to power up the wing, pump to increase speed, and then turn the way you want to go.

When I started my session yesterday it was light and super gusty--like 10 mph with 25 mph gusts, and the gusts were few and far between. I still had fun because I could pump through the lulls. I went way upwind, which was kind of a bad idea, I could have had a long walk or swim if the wind died, but with the gusts and the good swells, I could manage a downwind run. Whenever my wing started to sag and get heavy I'd just turn into a broad reach, pump to increase speed, and then turn downwind again and chase bumps.

The coolest thing about this sport is the wide range of condition you can deal with. We can have fun in next to no wind, or when it's absolutely nuking.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on October 20, 2020, 11:06:31 AM
Check out Jeremy in the vid below.  Not winging, but the principle is the same.  He isn't vertical bouncing like the above video at all.  He is starting by gaining speed and then syncing progressively stronger forward pumps as he gains speed.  He basically swims it slowly upwards but always driving his pumps forwards. He is cycling pressure from back foot to front foot in a delayed rhythm.  The vertical bouncing tends to plow the nose on the down so it slows as much as it lifts. 

https://youtu.be/eiSWT8J5f-8
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Beasho on October 21, 2020, 02:00:18 PM
For me, the key to light wind foiling is bouncing on the board. . . .

Sort of like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebDKKpOZnw4

This is super motivational.  I wouldn't have believed it possible if not for a video testimonial. 

I have a long way to go but am getting more optimistic about the light air takeoff.  I have the heavy air down, just need 15 mph to get up and fly.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 07, 2020, 09:19:08 PM
Got a good day in with some decent wind. 15-20 at Belmont. I stayed centered today. No real pumping needed other than the wing. Popped right up, as was said by all here.

Tearing off with some wind I am understanding why people like this sport. It probably doesnít look like much but man it feels like youíre going so fast. Super fun.

My next question is that Iím a few sessions in now and it still feels really unstable between the wind and the chop and the foil hauling ass lol. I get on foil and just donít seem to lock in like I can in the surf. Reading back the conditions above I guess I shouldnít be surprised. Does it start to make sense after a while?

I decided to just go for it and was able to get a decent run but Iím not moderating altitude as well as Iíd like is the way I guess Iíd say it. Also the chop makes that hard as the surface is dropping away. I understand why people ride the long mast now. I really need some smooth water. Iím checking out a lake soon and probably need to get to a marina that has some space for a few sessions.

In the end, I suspect itís just time on water. But this stuff is for sure fun, even if itís hard as hell to get going.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on November 08, 2020, 12:03:42 AM
That's great Cowboy!  Yeah, there is a lot going on (particularly in wild water) and it first it is hard to feel what is doing what.  You are making really solid progress.  There are days when it is really hard to lock in and others when everything seems smooth and easy.  A lot of that can be conditions.  I'm jealous!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on November 08, 2020, 11:00:21 AM
I really need some smooth water. Iím checking out a lake soon and probably need to get to a marina that has some space for a few sessions.
From my buddy who's really good at it, the above is exactly what he said as well. He lives on an inland lake that sits down in a valley surrounded by hills that gets plenty of wind, but because of the topography, the water stays pretty calm when it's blowing pretty well out there.

He brought his rig to the beach a time or two, but even in just 10-12 mph wind, Sano gets so chopped up and confused, that he doesn't even bother packing it with him any longer.

The lake you're talking about should be excellent for what you're trying to do, because I used to boat/fish on it back in the 70's, and I remember it getting windy, but the water never got so bad that we called it a day early.

Good luck, and stoked to hear you're up and having a blast!!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 08, 2020, 07:40:22 PM
Thx guys.

Yeah itís funny, the progression is actually pretty fast but you know we all get impatient. I almost went to the lake today but was just too whipped. I have to up my land training. My left bicep is smoked (heelside back arm) from pulling upwind.

Saw some guys winging on the lake and yeah SanO itís as you say, you can get decent wind without serious chop.

Oh, and one terrifying moment getting out yesterday. High tide, steep beach, and a berm built up to hold back the swell. Iíd gone way down south near the jetty where itís open to the swell (chest high shore break) and just couldnít deal with getting back upwind so I tried to time it and did ďokĒ. Walked in from chest deep and got swept up onto the beach by a nice wave... and then it sucked out. I barely hung on and kept my board up out of the impact zone. If you donít have a waist leash for your wing, even if you donít use it in the water, itís really critical for in/out. If Iíd tried to manage both Iíd have been pummeled. My wing just flailed and was fine and I could keep the foil & board from nailing me or destroying itself. I honestly think the only time I need a helmet is getting in and out of the water.

Iím adding a bottom handle to my board so I can pack it and run.

And really, gonna hit the lake for a few and get to where I can sail/surf this rig up into a nice safe landing.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on November 08, 2020, 08:47:02 PM
Oh, and one terrifying moment getting out yesterday. High tide, steep beach, and a berm built up to hold back the swell. Iíd gone way down south near the jetty where itís open to the swell (chest high shore break) and just couldnít deal with getting back upwind so I tried to time it and did ďokĒ. Walked in from chest deep and got swept up onto the beach by a nice wave... and then it sucked out. I barely hung on and kept my board up out of the impact zone. My wing just flailed and was fine and I could keep the foil & board from nailing me or destroying itself. I honestly think the only time I need a helmet is getting in and out of the water.
Dude!! That's what did me in back in June. Heading to enter the water in big high tide shore break, timed it wrong, got stuck in butt high backwash that I couldn't move in either way, made a last ditch effort to throw the board over the breaking whitewash to keep from getting tangled up with it, and the foil/hatchet below it in the impact zone where I was stuck standing - and BAM!! - friggen wave threw it right back at and onto me. SOB!! :o :'(

Be careful out there bro!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: jondrums on November 08, 2020, 11:38:37 PM
whelp, I guess I'm winging now.  Or I will be once I fix my wing.  Two whole sessions under my belt, which includes a few moments of foiling, but mostly flailing.

Today, while walking the rig back upwind along the beach, the very gusty wind got under the board and flipped it right onto the wing.  The tail pierced into the leading edge for an insta-deflate, and a much longer walk of shame.  I guess instead of wing instructional videos, I'll be watching wing repair instructional videos.  Repair tips appreciated.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 09, 2020, 07:46:40 AM
Repair tips appreciated.

Leading edge blow outs are one repair you should send to a top repair guy. Other repairs anyone can do, even you.

The reason...in years past, kites were sewn with simple ďthickerĒ polyester thread, available for any sailboat supply house. Today, most brands have switched to some high tensile fancy stuff, that I suspect, only the big players have made an effort to procure. Airtime and fixmykite, I would hope.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 09, 2020, 08:09:25 PM
Jon, welcome and that sucks.

Itís a good time. I promise lol. But that walk, damnit. So hard.

SanO I think Iíve worked out that in the shore break I do my best to pull the board down and under which is counter intuitive coming from SUP where you never could. Iím starting my small board next week. Optimistic I know but I figure Iíll be able to ride it by the time itís done at least in flat water.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on November 09, 2020, 08:15:31 PM
Bottom handles, especially big, meaty ones, are the key to shore pound. With just a little practice you can grab the bottom handle quickly with the foil pointed away from you. even if you need to slog a bit you can manage to hang on while being pounded. I added one to my wing board and set it back too far so the nose is always down. That bug turns out to be a feature. walking into or out of the surf with the nose down and tail high is a little easier. Especially getting out. the waves go under the tail unless they're huge, and then you're fucked no matter what.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: jondrums on November 09, 2020, 10:04:08 PM
I'm going to send off my wing to Airtime in Hood River.  They seem like a good outfit for repairs. 
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on November 10, 2020, 07:23:52 AM
They do great work.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 10, 2020, 08:46:09 PM
Pono, I love a happy accident. At least when building, not in the surf.

Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 19, 2020, 06:43:01 PM
Ok so session report. First, I gotta say, take a trip if you don't live near the water lol. I'm taking forever to get 20 sessions in. (Might go to SD next week actually and double up my water time.)

Anyway, hit Castaic Lake north of LA (Lower Lagoon.) It's cool, you pay for parking an launch, wear a PFD, and ideally a helmet. Don't be a jerk, they just let wings back on the lake and they are "monitoring" it. We go about 3X faster than anything else there lol so be cool.

Waaaay easier without the big chop. Didn't get good wind but stayed upwind the whole time even schlogging back and forth. Got on foil a couple of times which is good as I'm not sure the wind got much over 10mph the whole session (gusts maybe.) So that's progress for sure. I'll go back and I'm going to do some harbor and lake sessions til I get my feet under me.

I'm going to pick up in the thread about wind window as I have a weird thing to ask. To stay upwind you keep your wing back towards the tail, right? Like you hold more back that forward. If you move the wing to the nose of the board, you head downwind. I gotta watch that YouTube video again because I swear he holds the wing out in front of him and I don't get that.

Someone needs to do videos for people who never wind surfed or kited. There's a lot of assumptions out there being made. If I see one more "how to Wingsurf" video that says, "you probably kited or windsurfed" I'm screaming. lol Be pedantic, we surfers and paddlers don't know. And we are the growth for you guys.

Anyway. I'm hooked, it's fun. I can knee start (crouch) and don't fall much when I'm not on foil. I can land the foil about half the time instead of crashing. Gybes  on foil are a faraway dream, and I'm fine with it. This is fun. Just need more sessions.

Oh, and LA is getting eaten up with Wing Dingers. We are going to have a fuuuun spring if we can get vaccinated so we can shuttle cars. hahahahaa #2020 But I can see 10 mile downwingers in my near future for sure. And I know I know, I can get back upwind. But I'm lazy. Upwind will be for late 2021. ;)

In the YouTube video
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: bigmtn on November 19, 2020, 07:05:30 PM
Do a downwinder now. That's what helped me most. Once you got the basics, just go fly down wind. You don't worry about staying upwind and can just enjoy it. Makes learning jibes easier because you can just keep trying over and over as you drift down the coast.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 19, 2020, 07:23:25 PM
This is exactly my thought. No hassles, just foil and fall and foil some more.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: obxDave on November 20, 2020, 12:46:40 AM
I'm going to pick up in the thread about wind window as I have a weird thing to ask. To stay upwind you keep your wing back towards the tail, right? Like you hold more back that forward. If you move the wing to the nose of the board, you head downwind. I gotta watch that YouTube video again because I swear he holds the wing out in front of him and I don't get that.

Someone needs to do videos for people who never wind surfed or kited. There's a lot of assumptions out there being made. If I see one more "how to Wingsurf" video that says, "you probably kited or windsurfed" I'm screaming. lol Be pedantic, we surfers and paddlers don't know. And we are the growth for you guys.

I thought about your upwind learning question. In the gazillion years Iíve been muckin around with water wind sports, I really learned everything about efficient sailing orientations on a good ole sailing dinghy long before any of these new fangled wind sports showed up. This might sound like a step backwards but learning to sail a Laser or 420 (or even a lowly Sunfish, or in my case racing Hobie 16ís in a one design fleet) teaches you more about efficient points of sail than any of these newer sports.  For the few years I worked as a windsurf and kiteboard instructor, teaching people how to effectively ride upwind by saying ďdo this and thisĒ is next to impossible. You can say it and demonstrate it, but it wonít just click. On a two person dinghy you can actually teach it and the people your teaching can start to ďfeelĒ it, as hokey as that sounds

If you donít want to bother learning to sail a dinghy (Iíd certainly understand that) then as others have said, be content to settle for downwind riding, and youíll slowly get an intuitive feel for how to work with the wind. Doesnít matter whether itís windsurfing, kiteboarding, kitefoiling, wing foiling, or a 40í cruiser, my brain treats it the same as those little dinghyís I grew up with, ďspot the gust, build some speed, sheet er in and point er up, but donít pinch too high and donít over sheet😀Ē
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on November 20, 2020, 01:53:55 AM
Hi Cowboy,

Upwind: try this right now.  Stand up, hold your imaginary wing straight in front of you and look straight at it.  Now rotate your head to look way over your front hand shoulder.  See what happened to your hands?  They mechanically went back a bit (or stayed still as your head and torso rotated away from them).  That is the basic motion of pointing.  Your head and shoulders will lead your body and your direction.  Twist your hips into it and you have most of the rest.  There are a lot of little subtleties that will help but these are the broad strokes.

Your progress is great!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on November 20, 2020, 08:11:59 AM
I assume a few zillion years of windsurfing helps, but I confess to being a little puzzled why people are having trouble going upwind. For a geezer with deteriorating balance, upwind is a piece of cake, downwind is a bitch. Upwind you get to hang on to something--in my case a fake boom--downwind the thing you were using to keep from falling is now trying to yank you off the board.

Even more important is apparent wind. Going Upwind at 10 mph at a 45-degree angle to the wind the 5.2 mph vector (cos(45)*speed) into the wind gets added to the wind speed, so 10mph wind becomes 15mph. Downwind it subtracts and if you're going straight downwind the vector is 100 percent of your speed, so the apparent wind is 0 mph and you're holding your wing up with both hands while you try to foil.

Losing the apparent wind is what makes gybing so hard. And all that apparent wind blowing in your face is what makes tacking hard.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: bigmtn on November 20, 2020, 09:42:40 AM
For me when learning the problem wasn't going upwind, it was staying upwind. I'd go upwind, then I'd fall, and would thus drift farther and farther downwind until I got back up. Kind of a one step upwind, 3 steps downwind. Once I got to the point that I could jibe consistently, staying upwind became much easier.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 20, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
Bigmtn called it. (You are my spirit animal.)

Admin, thanks, that video sort of says the opposite. Iíll post it and you guys can see.

Obx, I have a buddy whoís waiting to take me out in a dinghy. I am glad to hear that wonít be a waste. I was down for the novelty anyway. Iím really patient and want to learn things the right way, so I appreciate that.

Pono, I can go upwind now but Iím in that weird stage where Iím just not sure that Iím doing it right. And yes, not having wind surfed itís all weird. I think these things are too forgiving. You can get by doing stupid stuff. Add to that the lack of lessons available and Iím concerned that Iíll have bad habits. I need to record some video to let people analyze.

Thx!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on November 21, 2020, 03:51:09 AM
Here is a nice image of a guy modestly pointing.  This is pretty much textbook.  He is looking where he wants to go, his shoulders are open and his hips are twisted into it a little.  His arms have dropped back a little.  He is edging in lightly on the upwind rail.  He is just trying to hold or gain a little ground to turn and ride waves.  He has plenty of wind so no super steep angles required.  That is a great place for you to start.  Start with really mellow upwind angles.  Too steep upwind and you will stall or have to redirect downwind. 

Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 21, 2020, 03:53:43 PM
Thanks guys, I went out this am in 15+mph and hard a ball. Long rides across the lake and ended up farther upwind than I've done yet. Also maintained my altitude and direction on foil better than I have to date. Really great session. I can feel the progression accelerating. Still not getting up and staying up switch but riding back switch comfortably now. Getting on foil a little but that will take a while. In good news is be able to ride switch on foil which is great to learn from the start.

Today I was able to turn a bit on foil and also drive the wing to accelerate or ease up which was new. At the end of one run I had so much speed I dropped the wing behind me and pumped a few times. My surfing friends talk about surfing with the wing looking hard but it really wasn't in my way. If I can do that at this stage, downwind surfing will be doable for sure.

Interesting thing. When switch I seem way more back foot heavy. I can't seem to get my weight centered when switch. But that's what the next session is for.

Thx to all who are helping here. It's coming!!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on November 22, 2020, 12:37:24 AM
SWEEET!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on November 22, 2020, 06:14:15 PM
Where are you finding wind? Any idea where some might be tomorrow? I'm dying to get my wings out.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 22, 2020, 08:44:59 PM
Keeping this going.

I forgot to log that I also played with my stance. I kept slowly veering to heelside when on foil the last few sessions so I started playing with my stance based on seeing strap setups and hearing people talk about moving their back foot a lot. I accidentally found the right position once when I first flew in session 4-5. I just locked in.

Here's what is working. First my foil is all the way forward and my back foot is just in front of the mast and maybe 2" offset to toe side rail. My front foot is about 24" up and my toes are touching the center line (basically like the straps on every wing board.)

I saw a video on stance from MacKite and they say they when using a big foil wing you need to offset your stance. Surfing offset would be weird as a beginner but for winging it's necessary. I'm guessing that with the extra speed you get more stability/wing resistance. Anyway, it worked so I want to report it.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 22, 2020, 08:52:27 PM
Where are you finding wind? Any idea where some might be tomorrow? I'm dying to get my wings out.

Pono, I found a weird little lake in the grapevine called Castaic. There's a lower lagoon where they are cautiously allowing winging as a trial. PFD, helmet preferred though not required. Because it's in that mountain pass it gets a bit more wind than normal. Forecast is 13-18mph tomorrow but it's a hike. But you might check out big bear or arrowhead? Not sure if the temps work but you're pretty hardy.

I did think of another spot. Frank Bosall park. In San Dimas. Not sure of the forecast but same thing, LA County so should be same rules. If you go this week buzz me, I'm on a light work schedule. I'll message you.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Hdip on November 22, 2020, 09:10:28 PM
Pyramid lake is only another 20 minutes and seems to have wind whenever I drive by.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 22, 2020, 09:26:54 PM
Def gonna try Pyramid but I gotta get good enough to dodge the good ol' boys in boats and jet skis. 😂
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 24, 2020, 06:32:23 PM
Taking a work break this week and snuck out for a mid day wing.

Conditions were 10mph gusting to maybe 13-15. And just as you all said, I can pop up during a gust and ride through the lull. Low wind is actually fun too. It's fun to tear off at 100mph but chilling in low wind is fun too.

The lake is about 350 yds wide and with an NE wind I now back and forth across it. I'm consistently making it across on foil heelside regular stance and then shlogging back switch on the water. I got up on foil switch for 5 seconds and could have made kook of the day. I know it'll come.

But the big news is that I did a 170⁰ gybe on foil before crashing. This is doable. That's where I'm at. Also, with the gusty assed wind I'm used to I'll be rock solid when I get to some steady wind.

For those wondering, if you want to learn to surf, and don't have a boat or efoil, winging will get you time on foil. I'm getting several minutes on foil every session and soon I'll be getting an hour or more. I'll still have to adapt some skills to the waves but I'm learning how a foil works in a way that would take months in waves.

The only bad thing is that none of my surf buddies care at all , so this is the only place I can share how stoked I am. 😂
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Hdip on November 24, 2020, 09:50:03 PM
Do I still need to read this thread since you ha e these guys to cheer you on cowboy? 😀

Just kidding. Iím not going to castaic though.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 25, 2020, 07:48:07 AM
Haha. I'm just rubbing it in now. But these wingers have gotten me over the hump for sure.

But dude, come on, a spot so close to your house! I'm honestly just stoked at the real estate options this sport opens. I can move home to the South now and get 100 acres on a lake for $12.  ;D

Oh but just wait, my prone sessions are starting soon. Then you'll have to witness that here, and in the water.
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