Standup Zone Forum

The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: surfcowboy on August 29, 2020, 08:54:25 PM

Title: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on August 29, 2020, 08:54:25 PM
First day out on wing ding today. Light wind, maybe 8 mph Iíd guess? (I have no real sense yet but going on weather report.) Probably too much swell (and shore break) but new stuff, you know. First thing to note is that I surfed before and then the wind came up and instead of heading home, I went down the road and got in again. This is what I wanted when I got into foiling.

Anyway, my 6í6Ē x 28Ē foil SUP turns out to be a great wing board to learn on. Got advice to skip the plain SUP and it was right on. Got out and without any wind experience figured out the ďmove the wing to point the boardĒ thing. (Thank you Zone and YouTube) after 10 min on my knees I was over it. (And creaky in the knees and ankles) so I figured it was time to fall. I saw a video recently where a guy actually started with his front foot flat and back knee down and that seemed like the best for me. It was. I popped the wing up, then without waiting popped the back leg up and was standing (and surprised.) I cruised for a couple hundred yards then luffed the wing and sat down. Not enough wind to get on foil but I got to get the feel and even see how a wing pump can keep you from falling, basic stuff like that. Ok, now, toe side. Turns out thatís easy... if you just sit on the board haha. I could do it kneeling but really couldnít stand 8n the conditions. Maybe next time.

I ended up doing maybe a quarter mile walk of shame but I was surprised at how long I managed to hold out as long as I did. I joked with the lifeguards on the way back, theyíd been watching me and talking on the radios about me as I drifted past 3 of them lol. I told them about winging and thanked them for not calling the boat on me. I explained that if the see a new guy not to panic, we just blow into shore and walk back.

Anyway, I call it a win and I actually liked it. I totally get why all you guys like it. I think itís going to be a fun addition to the kit. Now, expect a thread on taking care of these things. So weird and messy coming back to a beach and packing up, wtf? Hahaha. 

Now to get COVID under control so we can shuttle again. Maybe these new 15 min tests will be an answer? ďDude, hit the local Walgreens and Iíll pick you up.Ē Iím already planning routes.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on August 29, 2020, 09:06:19 PM
Going upwind is MUCH easier than going downwind. You don't really need a shuttle. I do five-mile upwind/downwinders a couple of times a week, no sweat.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on August 29, 2020, 09:32:33 PM
I just gotta get this thing on foil then. I have to say, itís at least fun while you are learning. SUP surfing and foil surfing were pretty frustrating. Maybe itís the novelty of this but even sucking at it is fun.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on August 30, 2020, 04:23:14 AM
Maybe itís the novelty of this but even sucking at it is fun.

Hah!  No, man, the whole thing is silly kid fun.  There is always something new to suck at.  It sounds like you did fantastic.  Getting off your knees, making runs, trying to stay upwind and without wind experience.  That is a lot.  Stoked that you are started!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Phils on August 30, 2020, 07:29:21 AM
Sounds like a great first session.  You will get this quickly.  Met someone yesterday who is learning with no wind or water board sports experience who is starting to foil after a handful of sessions so you will have a much easier path.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on August 30, 2020, 07:42:28 AM
Thx guys, yeah I didnít plan on it but by the end I was itching to get on foil. Might take Hdips advice and hit long beach to get a smooth water day.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Thatspec on August 30, 2020, 10:25:26 AM
Good to hear Cowboy, every session there'll be a revelation ;D
You'll need significant wind though, in the beginning too much is better!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on August 31, 2020, 02:07:14 PM
Belmont Shores in Long Beach was fun. Wind was actually over 15mph, gusting  up to almost 20MPH, (thx to a kiteboard instructor who can estimate better than I.) So TallDude, there is some winging wind up here in LA County. (Also like 50 kiteboarders out and a TON of people taking lessons so kiting is still growing it seems.) I think there was one other winger, but we can launch anywhere so there's that.


It was choppy as all get out, as I said, I'm still not really "down" with the wind just yet. But I got up several times heelside. That's really easy now for me. Managed to get going toe side (harder) and then did the world's most hilarious gybe at less than a walking pace. Really, there's room for a hilarious YT channel of just wing kooks learning. It's got to look hilarious.

The chop really made it hard to pump as you need to time the pump and the chop and the wing pump and... it was all a bit much. But really, the walk of shame is the biggest incentive to get better and get on foil. Though I am working on something in the garage that I think will make some folks on here happy. More to come.

Hoping for some foil surfing this week though. Enough of that devil wind for now! haha. Back to the secret foil spot.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on September 01, 2020, 01:31:56 AM
Cowboy, what wing are you using and what is your foil setup?  What's your weight?
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 01, 2020, 08:22:19 AM
Hey, yeah, my stats.

F-One Swing 5m, Self-shaped 6í4Ē x 28Ē board, Gong Surf XL (2200? I gotta look that up) Iím 63kg/138 lbs.

I suspect that BigMtnís advice to put the foil all the way forward is the missing link here. I went to my balance point but had another inch. (Being careful.) Also, honestly, I really am not as clear as I should be about powering up so thereís some learning curve. And then the crazy chop where Iíve been learning is rough. Iíve got a spot Iíll be visiting soon that gets wind in the teens and is small enough to not get crazy chop on it. I suspect a week there will put me solidly on foil. (That and access to a boat to tow.) but I suspect the gear is right on, just need a better sailor.

Also, my wife and I laugh every time I use that term for some reason. Iím fully claiming ďsailingĒ now or wing dinging. I refuse to let this become too cool or view it as anything more than pure fun.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on September 02, 2020, 01:06:47 AM
Cowboy, You have it made! 

That setup will foil you in very light wind.  Smooth wind and smooth water are your best buddies to get the feel for it.  15 mph will be awesome for you. 

Here are a couple of unrequested :) thoughts that may be helpful that I would want to know if I were starting without any windsport experience.

1. (and 2 and 3).  Pump that Swing to 10 PSI.  It will bulge between the seams.  Indulge the bulge.  This will make your wing pumping 100 times (fake news) more efficient with you doing nothing else differently.

4.  Don't pump the board at all yet when you are taking off.  In fact, focus on disrupting the board as little as possible.  Mistimed board pumps (and they all will be at first-too much other stuff to focus on) will stall your forward motion (which is all you will need to get foiling). 

5. Practice pumping the wing on land for a few minutes.  You initially want to to pull so that your pumps are directing the board mostly forward.  Flow over the foil is what is going to lift you.  Reach forward with both arms and slightly up, pull back and slightly down with both arms and give a little more kick inwards with your back arm at the end.  For us mid to light weight riders a few of those is all it takes.  You can ease the board up when it has speed with a little back foot pressure or you can do a little compress decompress. 

6.  Wait for a gust.  Don't beat yourself up pumping in a lull.  Your total pumping is going to take 2 or 3 seconds.  If it feels like your are pulling through the wind rather than getting purchase stop and wait for a better gust.

7. Turn the nose very slightly downwind.  You can use your ears to find the wind direction.  Turn your head into the wind and when you feel it equally on both ears you are looking directly upwind.  Your reach is 90 degrees from there.    A good angle to start at is 5 more degrees downwind.  Starting a little downwind will help you pick up speed and will help you from slamming into chop.  The chop can actually help you a little going slightly downwind.  Too far downwind and you won't be able to gain speed.

8.  There is going to be a fast stance position on your board.  The board will accelerate best on the surface when you are on it.  You want to position your foil so you can take off and ride right from that position without having to shuffle. 
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 06, 2020, 11:32:06 PM
Thank you. This is all good stuff for newbs.

Thatís wild about the psi. Iíll try that. Being new to wind stuff this is the stuff I donít know. Violating the warranty is always the first step to leveling up. ;)

Number 4 makes a ton of sense. I described my technique as a monkey f-ing a football recently. Iím pretty sure I am doing more harm than good.

Iím headed to a spot in San Diego in a week or two that should have smooth water with decent wind so a few days in a row will hopefully get me sorted. The wing pumping to move the foil forward is another thing I wouldnít have guessed. Iíll update the thread and any other new guys post up here too. Trying to collect good starter info in these threads.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: bigmtn on September 07, 2020, 12:15:07 AM
Just do everything admin says... Buddy was pumping the board like crazy, and getting frustrated he couldn't get up on foil. I told him to stop pumping the board, only pump wing. Once you feel the board trying to come up, then you can do a couple pumps. He tried it, and immediately was able to get on foil. The extra few psi really help too!

Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on September 07, 2020, 06:28:31 AM
Violating the warranty is always the first step to leveling up. ;)

Hah!  I know.  It can be unnerving but I can guarantee that if you have a non-defective wing that 10 PSI will not harm it.  Chan and I have shared a Swing quiver for year.  Always at 10 or above.  Gorge, Mexico, Baja.  They stay inflated in the sun even on 100 degree days, no problems.  The only Swings I have heard of bursting were from a strut bulge issue at MFG suggested PSI's.  It sounds like they had a bad batch at some point.  Those should be warrantied regardless. 

You can always take off wing pumping alone, even on small foils and small boards.  Sometimes it helps.  Pumping well may get you flying faster in some situations but it can cripple you if it is incorrect.  Watching new riders here I see two very common issues that come from what I see as well intentioned but damaging advice.  1. Superfluous board stomping.  Less is more.  None is fine.  Getting airborn is not a freestyle move.  2. Heading too far downwind.  I see a lot of new riders who are pumping to start while heading almost straight downwind.  A little downwind (a few degrees) is all you are looking for. 

Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 09, 2020, 07:43:55 AM
Ok, this weekend Iíll be in San Diego (lookout Tom!) Iím going to hit Mission Bay for some smooth water and a spot with an easy walk back. But hopefully Iíll get on foil and can stay upwind. Once I have that Iíll be able to step off the boat onto my board so hopefully multiple sessions and time on water will get me dialed.

Wind clock question. Iíve been trying to stay at 9pm (goofy, going heelside.) when you guys say I should turn a few degrees downwind to get flying what are yíall meaning on the clock? Iíd assume 8 but more?
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on September 09, 2020, 11:09:38 AM
You light guys have it easier. I have to pump EVERYTHING to get up on smaller foils. One strand of grass, a screwy angle, or just getting tired of pumping and I'm stuck on the surface. The angle is critical for me, I doubt it will be for you, but basically I start off going slightly upwind to get some wing pressure, then turn gently to 90 degrees while pumping the wing like an injured chicken and sometimes a little past it to take advantage of swells and a little better pumping angle. But if you turn just a little too far downwind two bad things happen--your speed subtracts somewhat from the wind speed, and the wing winds up more in front of you, which is a shit angle for effective pumping.

I start off just pumping the wing until I get close to liftoff speed, then I start hopping up and down like a lunatic. I don't think my board pumping is all that effective, but unweighting the board lets it come up a bit, and any time you disconnect from the surface you accelerate. I often skip a few times before I get solidly up, but as long as I don't hit a lull I get up reliably.

I watch Admin pop up effortlessly with a dinky wing and a 760 foil and just hate his guts. 30 pounds of weight difference is a big deal.

Chan gets up in nothing with zero effort after traveling about four inches. Disgusting.

Incidentally, you don't really want smooth water. One of our launch areas (Stevenson) has a long stretch of smooth water, and I stick to it like I had no foil at all. Chop is your friend, and a nice, chunky boat wake can pop my board off the surface and into the low drag/high acceleration mode like I had a jato bottle. As soon as you can get speed up, coming smoothly up onto the foil is simple. At low speeds I have to increase my takeoff angle which often results in a foil stall--especially with the dinky 860.

Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 09, 2020, 08:26:40 PM
Noted on the slight chop. I just donít need 2í wind chop slapping the nose.

You may have told me something critical about angle down wind. Iíd turn downwind and lose speed. Iím betting I went too far. I tried for 90į to wind but would get lost.

On the pump, Iím betting if I just get moving and hop once to ease drag Iíll go.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on September 10, 2020, 04:01:29 AM
Wind clock question. Iíve been trying to stay at 9pm (goofy, going heelside.) when you guys say I should turn a few degrees downwind to get flying what are yíall meaning on the clock? Iíd assume 8 but more?

Hi Cowboy, it is more like 8:45 or (3:15) if the wind is at 12:00.  It is pretty subtle but it helps a lot.  You will feel like your wing pumps translate more into forward motion and it will minimize the chop.  If you head too far downwind it will make it harder to gain speed and you will also start dragging your lower air wing tip.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Phils on September 10, 2020, 06:40:46 AM
Lots of good detailed advise here about wing pumping.   I usually wait to pump the board when it starts to feel light (getting some lift).  Not sure it matters at that point, but gives arms a break sooner.   I have also found that when the waves have some steepness, turning downwind and using the down ward angle of the water facilitates a quick liftoff as the water disappears from the bottom of your board.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 12, 2020, 09:13:34 PM
Mission Bay today. Not enough wind but it was fun to be out. Flat water walks of shame are so much easier. I just pushed the board upside down in front of me in 6Ē of water and pulled the foil behind.

The Robbie Naish waist deep method from his video seems way harder.

Not enough wind to get on foil (est around 10mph which might work when Iím good but not now) but I started to get how to angle the foil and hold some ground. Itís absurdly easy to schlog. People should buy those Slingshot stick on dagger boards. Iím thinking of putting one on my inflatable for my mother in law and nephews to use.

Now, letís see if I can get in the water before the wind dies tomorrow. But that nice lunch outside on the patio of the Catamaran Resort was probably needed more after half a year locked down in LA.

Must stop walking and paddling. Must stay upwind soon. But itís session 3 so Iíll chill out and hope for wind.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 14, 2020, 08:13:56 PM
Yup, itís the wind. I got on foil!!! Still not high wind but maybe 12-15 mph and more than enough for my light butt. Maybe 5 sec on foil and then over-foiled and bailed. Oh, now I know why wind wingers have their back feet in front of the masts.

Iím going to scoot forward tomorrow and see how that goes before I move the mast back. I slammed it forward like bigmtn said and yup, it worked.

One note for those who go behind me. When the wind gusts and itís cranking you can put it more overhead and it just pulls you up. I did this by mistake but a guy told me about this after and it makes sense.

Admin, yes, wait for it and then it just happens. A couple of pumps but mostly just the right conditions and direction. I am also learning all the ways to hold the wing and do different things. When is that YouTube video coming? No one really talks about angle of attack and fore/aft position and it makes a huge difference. Even that guy in the sailing mag said, that mostly they let people figure this stuff out lol. Letís move beyond that, right?

Tomorrow Iíll try to schlog upwind from the boat and out into the marina. But today I did a mini downwinder with my wife dropping me off maybe a quarter mile across this little bay and me running back and forth a couple of times before I lost ground and pulled into the marina. But itís a straight shot in to the boat so I just cruise in and pull right up to the back deck and step onboard. Great little working vacation. Iím loving being able to flat water paddle in am and then wing on my lunch break. I might not even drive to a surf break unless I get too tempted to try that smaller foil wing Iíve been sitting on.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 15, 2020, 07:25:09 PM
Today the wind was fully powered, the foil was back 3/4Ē in the box and it all came together for 2 solid foil runs. Not long but I brought one down on purpose and crashed out of one. Really good feeling.

Iím curious about starting in direct onshore winds. Am I right that thatís pretty hard and you just need to paddle out and get yourself some room to run along shore til you can angle up a bit?

Also, when schlogging I can make it up wind on toeside but not heelside. I figure thereís some trick but Iíve not sorted it. Since I can foil more and more on heelside I guess Iíll just deal lol. Hoping to get decent length runs by end of week. This lunch break wing session schedule is working well as I donít have time to get exhausted.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on September 16, 2020, 02:20:57 AM
Stoked Cowboy!  That is amazing progress. 

2400 is a very big foil at 130 lbs.  Awesome because it will pop you right up but possibly a little hard to tame when you are up and flying (particularly when you are more powered and in gusts).  This is a gift, it comes with a price.  :)  You are going to end up with both feet in front of the mast on that kit a lot of the time.  When you mention bringing the wing overhead to control gusts and feeling that uplift, that also has the side effect of taking some of your body weight off the foils.  When you really start overpowering this can feel very wild at first. 

It is likely best to put toeside riding aside for a while.  It will be much easier to learn to foil heelside in both directions and it is valuable to know that.  Riding toeside while schlogging is not a super valuable skill and you are better to schlog heelside in both directions.  You will point more easily and you will be set to foil up when your gust comes.

When you are foiling on these wingfoil setups you can point incredibly high into the wind.  Much higher than on windsurfing gear, etc.  That may take some sessions but even at first going a few degrees upwind may feel most stable and comfortable. 

The reason you don't hear many tips on body and wing positions for points of sail is that it is highly situational.   Like you mentioned you may need to be more overhead when overpowered.  You may be low and locked (more of a windsurfing position) when you are right in the wing's core wind range.  A generality is that when you shift the wing back (towards the tail of the board) you will point upwind.  Wing shifted forward towards the nose turns you downwind.  This is very three dimensional, though, and there are a lot of other subtleties that you will feel that will make that work. 

Keep doing what you are doing.  You are making great progress and each foiling reach is a tutorial in itself. 


Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 16, 2020, 06:59:16 AM
Thx, and yes, each reach is so instructional. Iím really glad for my time in waves so I can be present when on foil and think clearly about whatís happening.

Sage advice about toe side and yes, after years of snowboarding, skating, and surfing without switch skills, Iím working on it. This sounds like a good plan.

As to trimming the foil, that 3/4Ē move back got me really in a nice place. But after trying my Curve M in the surf Iím for sure adding a smaller ďbigĒ wing and will use the XL Rise for teaching buddies or sell it off. Eventually Iíll start playing with high aspect Iím sure. (Nice thing about Gong, ~$250_$300 wings.)

Iíve got a few more days here. Daily sessions help for sure. And when Iím home Iím going to work out a shuttle with my wife and get a few miles under my belt.

I wonder if Apple knows how many iWatches offshore sports have sold? lol
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: ceej on September 17, 2020, 05:28:47 AM
I've been enjoying reading your progress, surfcowboy. I was building my wing board around the same time as you and am on a similar wing foil learning curve so reading along with all your progress has been helpful and entertaining. Hoping I can hijack your thread a little bit with some technique questions of my own...

I am up to about session 10 or 11, and am able to get up on foil in both directions fairly consistently and zig zag across the lake. I am using a slingshot v2 6.4m wing and a slingshot 84cm sup foil. I'm 6'3 190lb.  I still need a fairly strong breeze to get going and I'm guessing the wind speed window can be lowered a lot with better technique.

I come from a surfing background, and have never been on foil before this. I found riding switch stance easier because I didn't have to overcome trying to ride the foil like it is a surfboard. I am still able to pump up onto foil a bit better in my normal surfing stance, but once on foil switch feels just as good as regular to me at this point.

Most of my questions are about holding the wing. My most comfortable position is with my front hand on the "transfer handle" that runs perpendicular to the boom and the forward most rear handle. This makes the wing easiest to control for me, but I am assuming just because that is what I have started with and have practiced the most with.

When I move my front hand back to the forward handle that is in line with the boom, should my palm be facing up or down? Would it ever change based on what I am doing?

Am i missing out on available power by not using the handles further back on my back hand?  Or am I just not able to point as high?

I've completed two non foiling jibes out of many attempts. My current sequence is to turn downwind, switch the wing in my hands and then switch my feet. I usually come off at the feet switching part. I think i just need practice here but would take any tips.

Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 17, 2020, 06:13:47 PM
Ceej,

Thx for hopping in. I set these up so weíd create an easy way to track beginner issues and you are right on time.

Adminís comment about wing positions being relative made me think.

Iíll just add what little I know and congratulations on consistently getting on foil. Thatís my next short term goal on the water.

For me, on a swing with no transfer handle, Iíve had to learn to fly the wing a bit more I suspect. But the rear handle is my source of power. I rarely use the forward handle as I can feel the wing power up when I move my hand back. But, yes, control is an issue in the early stages. Keeping the front up and the tip out of the water is a huge challenge and causes most of my falls.

Iíd like to hear more about what I see as the three main positions (please guys add in if weíre missing some.

Low with strut/boom almost level like a wind surfer - I never use this for now.  Seems like only experienced folks do this?

Mid (shoulder high?) with the strut /boom at diagonal-  This is my main position I use.

Slightly overhead angled - this is my full power take off and get on foil position for right now but I can only do it when wind is at 15mph or so.

Overhead depowered with one hand- this would be the gybe position, though I get to this sometimes when the wind leaves and Iíve been in the slight overhead powered position.

For all of these I can do them with the front handle (not leading edge handle) and the second handle, but with less power than front and 3rd (back) handle. This tracks with all Iíve read and seen online.

There are really no videos on this and I get that admin is likely right, that itís so conditional. But it seems like we should start to define and discuss the most common ones so beginners have a path. I use what Iíve read here on the water all the time and try things out.

What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: bigmtn on September 17, 2020, 07:18:08 PM
F-One swing, I only use the front handle and furthest back of the 2 back handles. Leading edge handle I use if I'm fully depowered trying to ride a wave.  I only use the forward one of the 2back handles, middle handle, when I miss grab while doing a jibe... But I'm no expert, that's just what feels comfortable.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 17, 2020, 08:13:33 PM
This tracks with my experience as well. I only use it on my way to the back one if I miss it.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on September 18, 2020, 01:41:31 AM
There are really no videos on this and I get that admin is likely right, that itís so conditional. But it seems like we should start to define and discuss the most common ones so beginners have a path. I use what Iíve read here on the water all the time and try things out.

What do you guys think?

Hi Cowboy,

Shut me up if you already know this stuff but some of the beginner kiting stuff may help with wing position.  It is really the same for the wing minus the lines.  You are exposing the wing to the full force of the wind when it is locked and low.  As the wing changes position in that wind window you are spilling air to various degrees and lessen that power. 

When you are lightly powered it can be really helpful to lower the wing.  That is fast and efficient but it is also easier to catch wingtips there and you are the most exposed to gusts. You also have to be able to translate that power into forward speed or it will fling you.  Overhead and you are spilling most of your air.  That is pretty much for gusts, when you have become majorly overpowered, going downwind, etc.  As you can see in the image below, the wind window is fully 3 dimensional.  Where you have the wing positioned relative to your body and board is largely going to determine your point of sail.  You are also making subtle adjustments by sheeting in and out which allow those positions. 

On the Swings I use the front and back strut handles only.  I really hope that they extend those a little in V2.  An extra few inches of handle length would go a long way towards perfecting those wings.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/hRN2FMwbnro/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 18, 2020, 01:00:29 PM
No, no, keep it coming. This thread is for non wind folks so kite knowledge is appreciated.

That also tracks, the angle I mean, as the tip I got was to power up with pumps and when thereís a gust go a little higher to lighten the load on board.

As a beginner too Iím taking safety over full power as that tip drag is an instant fall. So Iíll play with this when I go out in a bit. Iíll have good 10-15mph today. Hoping I know enough now to pop up on foil earlier.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 19, 2020, 07:41:21 AM
Oh, so thatís what youíre all so stoked about...

Flew for real yesterday. Probably 45 seconds to a minute. Long enough to see that the wing is super stable once up, the speed is amazing, you can totally play with the altitude in a controlled way.

Not only is this a great feeling on its own, but itís going to give me what I hoped for, long foil rides so I can dial the foil better for surfing.

For tracking, 6 sessions and solid 15 mph wind is what it took me to get to a decent heelside (goofy) run. Working on switch stance as well but have yet to foil switch.

Thx guys, especially admin and bigmtn. Getting that foil all the way forward helped a ton. Iíve moved it back a bit but it would have taken forever to fly if you hadnít told me to overcompensate. Oh, and getting foil position right in the box feels amazing. Itís almost like you can do no wrong.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on October 18, 2020, 09:01:43 PM
Ok, so Iím winging once a month lol. Iíll dial it by 2030. But LA has a lot of good things, just not so much Fall wind. Iíll catch up in the Spring.

Ok, so 2 hours out and winging is the most physically demanding sport Iíve ever done. Literally every muscle is used. Headmount mentioned it this week but I felt it today.

Light wing in Long Beach 9-10 mph but it started gusting after an hour. Right as I was starting to feel tired lol. Got up on foil a few times heelside and noticed something. When Iím pumping the wing (not the board so much) As the board gets moving I find my weight is way back so when I come onto foiling have to catch up and pull myself forward. If I try to stay more upright I donít get going. Is this just more light wing messing with me?

In good news, I was able to stay upwind more this time. It gets better. Apparently walking isnít actually part of the sport. Who knew?

Also, Iíve been riding my e-skateboard switch (with the speed dialed all the way down to granny low) and that seemed to make me way more comfortable in switch stance today.

I really feel like Iím getting this, if I could do it more than once a month lol. But I do love winging, I can tell it suits me already. I like being offshore and even at Belmont where thereís a ton of kiters no one is in your way or you in theirs like surfing. Also, I love cruising on a big wing. Just parking up on foil and feeling that powder skiing feeling.

Iím going to try to hit a lake soon, just for the novelty I think too.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 19, 2020, 04:20:44 AM
I often see new wingers weighting the back foot, or leaning back to make the board lift off the water. This results in the board climbing too steeply and flying near stall. Then itís unstable and they fall. It also gives the feeling you need to catchup with the board.

Bouncing the board is best. Unweighting the front foot and pressing again. The board will pop up breaking surface suction and shoot forward onto to foil with you the rider, in a balanced position, and at a good flying speed, with better board stability. This is where short wing boards win. Otherwise, wait for more wind and just stand there in the right spot, and wait for speed to make it happen, smoothly, no leaning back.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on October 19, 2020, 04:21:51 AM
Yeah!  A new addict. 

9-10 is tough.  When we say 10, that is what is reading as our average windspeed.  There will always be gusts and lulls above an below the average.  If 10 is your top gust, that is painful.  If it is 10 with gusts to around 14, that can work.  It is much nicer when it is 14 with gusts to say, 18.  That is terrific wind to learn in. 

I missed your post from Sept.  That sounds great.  A minute is a lot of flying! 

What you wrote about having your weight too far back is a really big part of getting this sorted.  You want to feel centered so that you can put back foot pressure on the foil without feeling like you are behind it.  If you feel like your kit is angling up in front of you when you take off, your body is too far back.  That is really hard to recover from.  You want to be balanced and able to apply that pressure with a little shift of your hips to pressure that back foot.  It isn't a stomp or a body shift.  This happens a lot when it is light because you want to be flying.  If you don't have the speed, just shifting your hips won't get you airborn, so you tend to lean back in an effort to fly.  That may get you some lift but it wont last.  You will plop back down or worse.  :)

The key in light wind is to be selective.  Crab slightly upwind until you see your gust.  Look upwind at the water and wait for the darkest cat's paw.  When it is almost on you, center your body, sheet in to turn a little down wind and start some slow ease-in wing pumps even before the gust gets to you.  Do that gently just to get the board tracking.  Then when the gust hits you give some progressively deeper and more powerful wing pumps.   Wait until you have decent forward motion to apply back foot pressure.  If you go to early you are going to stall and will need to start again.  Lift off at a low angle.  All you want to do at first is free the board.  Don't worry about climbing right to max height.  Once it is clear you are home free.  Then you can climb up faster or pump up to height.  In short, weight centered, decent speed and ease it up. 

You can and will modify all of that in many ways over time but this is the core takeoff for light and mid weight people. 
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on October 19, 2020, 09:08:25 AM
For me, the key to light wind foiling is bouncing on the board. In conditions like yesterday here in the Gorge I have my biggest f-one (6M) and my biggest foil wing (Axis 1150) As far as wing pumping goes, I do pretty much exactly as Admin describes, but when I get a little board speed going I jump up and down on the board. Nothing so organized as trying to pump the board, it's a straightforward bouncing like a lunatic and continuing to pump. When the board comes off the surface I shorten the wing pumps up so I'm pumping quicker, with short strokes, and I shift my weight forward to get the nose "over the hump", shoving forward with my feet at the same time.

If all that sounds complicated and planned, it is and it isn't. I'm sure I look more than a bit manaical getting up, but at 215 with at least 5 pounds of wetsuit I need all the leaping about i can manage to get up on the foil.

As soon as I'm up I turn upwind and pump a few times (wing and board) to pick up some speed. With light wind, the apparent wind is critical. When I turn downwind I expect that heavy 6M wing to hang down and try to drop a tip in the water. I can't flag the wing to the side or behind me because there isn't enough wind to hold the wing up. So I keep it as high as I can and just look for swells to accelerate on.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on October 19, 2020, 02:04:49 PM
Thanks guys. This is exactly what I was feeling. The description of the angled board is where I was.

Itís one of the downsides of a positive thing. Iím small and nimble so I can adjust for bad behavior. Iíll start working on staying centered. When I first get up I hilariously go up and down while I get myself centered (and can fall during this.)

I am noticing in knee high chop that my nose buries which, yeah, what can you do, right? This is probably going to push me towards a shorter board sooner rather than later to fit in better.

Iím being careful to not try to pump too much until/unless Iím already off the water. But the bounce makes sense. Really, itís about conditions. I now feel that my next 15mph day Iíll be up. When I got on foil I know the wind was gusting to at least near 15.

So, summary for those following, donít get too far back on your board.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on October 19, 2020, 02:06:24 PM
Next beginner topic will be wing placement fore/aft. Iíll draft up some supporting gfx to prevent confusion as I think this one will get dicey otherwise lol.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: deja vu on October 19, 2020, 02:38:14 PM
For me, the key to light wind foiling is bouncing on the board. In conditions like yesterday here in the Gorge I have my biggest f-one (6M) and my biggest foil wing (Axis 1150) As far as wing pumping goes, I do pretty much exactly as Admin describes, but when I get a little board speed going I jump up and down on the board. Nothing so organized as trying to pump the board, it's a straightforward bouncing like a lunatic and continuing to pump. When the board comes off the surface I shorten the wing pumps up so I'm pumping quicker, with short strokes, and I shift my weight forward to get the nose "over the hump", shoving forward with my feet at the same time.

If all that sounds complicated and planned, it is and it isn't. I'm sure I look more than a bit manaical getting up, but at 215 with at least 5 pounds of wetsuit I need all the leaping about i can manage to get up on the foil.

As soon as I'm up I turn upwind and pump a few times (wing and board) to pick up some speed. With light wind, the apparent wind is critical. When I turn downwind I expect that heavy 6M wing to hang down and try to drop a tip in the water. I can't flag the wing to the side or behind me because there isn't enough wind to hold the wing up. So I keep it as high as I can and just look for swells to accelerate on.

Sort of like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebDKKpOZnw4
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on October 20, 2020, 08:59:59 AM
Sort of like this?

No. Exactly like that. If that guy was a geezer and his wing was an F-one then it would be me. Note the way he used the wind chop to break the surface just before he got fully up. If it wasn't for handy swells to pop over I'd need another 5mph to get up.

Apparent wind is the name of the game in light wind. If you're angled close to the wind angle you're getting the most wind across your wing: Wind speed plus board speed. Of course if you want to get back to where you started you can't just go upwind, so you can pump both the wing and the foil to keep your speed up, or take short turns upwind to power up the wing, pump to increase speed, and then turn the way you want to go.

When I started my session yesterday it was light and super gusty--like 10 mph with 25 mph gusts, and the gusts were few and far between. I still had fun because I could pump through the lulls. I went way upwind, which was kind of a bad idea, I could have had a long walk or swim if the wind died, but with the gusts and the good swells, I could manage a downwind run. Whenever my wing started to sag and get heavy I'd just turn into a broad reach, pump to increase speed, and then turn downwind again and chase bumps.

The coolest thing about this sport is the wide range of condition you can deal with. We can have fun in next to no wind, or when it's absolutely nuking.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on October 20, 2020, 11:06:31 AM
Check out Jeremy in the vid below.  Not winging, but the principle is the same.  He isn't vertical bouncing like the above video at all.  He is starting by gaining speed and then syncing progressively stronger forward pumps as he gains speed.  He basically swims it slowly upwards but always driving his pumps forwards. He is cycling pressure from back foot to front foot in a delayed rhythm.  The vertical bouncing tends to plow the nose on the down so it slows as much as it lifts. 

https://youtu.be/eiSWT8J5f-8
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Beasho on October 21, 2020, 02:00:18 PM
For me, the key to light wind foiling is bouncing on the board. . . .

Sort of like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebDKKpOZnw4

This is super motivational.  I wouldn't have believed it possible if not for a video testimonial. 

I have a long way to go but am getting more optimistic about the light air takeoff.  I have the heavy air down, just need 15 mph to get up and fly.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 07, 2020, 09:19:08 PM
Got a good day in with some decent wind. 15-20 at Belmont. I stayed centered today. No real pumping needed other than the wing. Popped right up, as was said by all here.

Tearing off with some wind I am understanding why people like this sport. It probably doesnít look like much but man it feels like youíre going so fast. Super fun.

My next question is that Iím a few sessions in now and it still feels really unstable between the wind and the chop and the foil hauling ass lol. I get on foil and just donít seem to lock in like I can in the surf. Reading back the conditions above I guess I shouldnít be surprised. Does it start to make sense after a while?

I decided to just go for it and was able to get a decent run but Iím not moderating altitude as well as Iíd like is the way I guess Iíd say it. Also the chop makes that hard as the surface is dropping away. I understand why people ride the long mast now. I really need some smooth water. Iím checking out a lake soon and probably need to get to a marina that has some space for a few sessions.

In the end, I suspect itís just time on water. But this stuff is for sure fun, even if itís hard as hell to get going.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on November 08, 2020, 12:03:42 AM
That's great Cowboy!  Yeah, there is a lot going on (particularly in wild water) and it first it is hard to feel what is doing what.  You are making really solid progress.  There are days when it is really hard to lock in and others when everything seems smooth and easy.  A lot of that can be conditions.  I'm jealous!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Califoilia on November 08, 2020, 11:00:21 AM
I really need some smooth water. Iím checking out a lake soon and probably need to get to a marina that has some space for a few sessions.
From my buddy who's really good at it, the above is exactly what he said as well. He lives on an inland lake that sits down in a valley surrounded by hills that gets plenty of wind, but because of the topography, the water stays pretty calm when it's blowing pretty well out there.

He brought his rig to the beach a time or two, but even in just 10-12 mph wind, Sano gets so chopped up and confused, that he doesn't even bother packing it with him any longer.

The lake you're talking about should be excellent for what you're trying to do, because I used to boat/fish on it back in the 70's, and I remember it getting windy, but the water never got so bad that we called it a day early.

Good luck, and stoked to hear you're up and having a blast!!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 08, 2020, 07:40:22 PM
Thx guys.

Yeah itís funny, the progression is actually pretty fast but you know we all get impatient. I almost went to the lake today but was just too whipped. I have to up my land training. My left bicep is smoked (heelside back arm) from pulling upwind.

Saw some guys winging on the lake and yeah SanO itís as you say, you can get decent wind without serious chop.

Oh, and one terrifying moment getting out yesterday. High tide, steep beach, and a berm built up to hold back the swell. Iíd gone way down south near the jetty where itís open to the swell (chest high shore break) and just couldnít deal with getting back upwind so I tried to time it and did ďokĒ. Walked in from chest deep and got swept up onto the beach by a nice wave... and then it sucked out. I barely hung on and kept my board up out of the impact zone. If you donít have a waist leash for your wing, even if you donít use it in the water, itís really critical for in/out. If Iíd tried to manage both Iíd have been pummeled. My wing just flailed and was fine and I could keep the foil & board from nailing me or destroying itself. I honestly think the only time I need a helmet is getting in and out of the water.

Iím adding a bottom handle to my board so I can pack it and run.

And really, gonna hit the lake for a few and get to where I can sail/surf this rig up into a nice safe landing.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Califoilia on November 08, 2020, 08:47:02 PM
Oh, and one terrifying moment getting out yesterday. High tide, steep beach, and a berm built up to hold back the swell. Iíd gone way down south near the jetty where itís open to the swell (chest high shore break) and just couldnít deal with getting back upwind so I tried to time it and did ďokĒ. Walked in from chest deep and got swept up onto the beach by a nice wave... and then it sucked out. I barely hung on and kept my board up out of the impact zone. My wing just flailed and was fine and I could keep the foil & board from nailing me or destroying itself. I honestly think the only time I need a helmet is getting in and out of the water.
Dude!! That's what did me in back in June. Heading to enter the water in big high tide shore break, timed it wrong, got stuck in butt high backwash that I couldn't move in either way, made a last ditch effort to throw the board over the breaking whitewash to keep from getting tangled up with it, and the foil/hatchet below it in the impact zone where I was stuck standing - and BAM!! - friggen wave threw it right back at and onto me. SOB!! :o :'(

Be careful out there bro!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: jondrums on November 08, 2020, 11:38:37 PM
whelp, I guess I'm winging now.  Or I will be once I fix my wing.  Two whole sessions under my belt, which includes a few moments of foiling, but mostly flailing.

Today, while walking the rig back upwind along the beach, the very gusty wind got under the board and flipped it right onto the wing.  The tail pierced into the leading edge for an insta-deflate, and a much longer walk of shame.  I guess instead of wing instructional videos, I'll be watching wing repair instructional videos.  Repair tips appreciated.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 09, 2020, 07:46:40 AM
Repair tips appreciated.

Leading edge blow outs are one repair you should send to a top repair guy. Other repairs anyone can do, even you.

The reason...in years past, kites were sewn with simple ďthickerĒ polyester thread, available for any sailboat supply house. Today, most brands have switched to some high tensile fancy stuff, that I suspect, only the big players have made an effort to procure. Airtime and fixmykite, I would hope.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 09, 2020, 08:09:25 PM
Jon, welcome and that sucks.

Itís a good time. I promise lol. But that walk, damnit. So hard.

SanO I think Iíve worked out that in the shore break I do my best to pull the board down and under which is counter intuitive coming from SUP where you never could. Iím starting my small board next week. Optimistic I know but I figure Iíll be able to ride it by the time itís done at least in flat water.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on November 09, 2020, 08:15:31 PM
Bottom handles, especially big, meaty ones, are the key to shore pound. With just a little practice you can grab the bottom handle quickly with the foil pointed away from you. even if you need to slog a bit you can manage to hang on while being pounded. I added one to my wing board and set it back too far so the nose is always down. That bug turns out to be a feature. walking into or out of the surf with the nose down and tail high is a little easier. Especially getting out. the waves go under the tail unless they're huge, and then you're fucked no matter what.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: jondrums on November 09, 2020, 10:04:08 PM
I'm going to send off my wing to Airtime in Hood River.  They seem like a good outfit for repairs. 
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on November 10, 2020, 07:23:52 AM
They do great work.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 10, 2020, 08:46:09 PM
Pono, I love a happy accident. At least when building, not in the surf.

Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 19, 2020, 06:43:01 PM
Ok so session report. First, I gotta say, take a trip if you don't live near the water lol. I'm taking forever to get 20 sessions in. (Might go to SD next week actually and double up my water time.)

Anyway, hit Castaic Lake north of LA (Lower Lagoon.) It's cool, you pay for parking an launch, wear a PFD, and ideally a helmet. Don't be a jerk, they just let wings back on the lake and they are "monitoring" it. We go about 3X faster than anything else there lol so be cool.

Waaaay easier without the big chop. Didn't get good wind but stayed upwind the whole time even schlogging back and forth. Got on foil a couple of times which is good as I'm not sure the wind got much over 10mph the whole session (gusts maybe.) So that's progress for sure. I'll go back and I'm going to do some harbor and lake sessions til I get my feet under me.

I'm going to pick up in the thread about wind window as I have a weird thing to ask. To stay upwind you keep your wing back towards the tail, right? Like you hold more back that forward. If you move the wing to the nose of the board, you head downwind. I gotta watch that YouTube video again because I swear he holds the wing out in front of him and I don't get that.

Someone needs to do videos for people who never wind surfed or kited. There's a lot of assumptions out there being made. If I see one more "how to Wingsurf" video that says, "you probably kited or windsurfed" I'm screaming. lol Be pedantic, we surfers and paddlers don't know. And we are the growth for you guys.

Anyway. I'm hooked, it's fun. I can knee start (crouch) and don't fall much when I'm not on foil. I can land the foil about half the time instead of crashing. Gybes  on foil are a faraway dream, and I'm fine with it. This is fun. Just need more sessions.

Oh, and LA is getting eaten up with Wing Dingers. We are going to have a fuuuun spring if we can get vaccinated so we can shuttle cars. hahahahaa #2020 But I can see 10 mile downwingers in my near future for sure. And I know I know, I can get back upwind. But I'm lazy. Upwind will be for late 2021. ;)

In the YouTube video
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: bigmtn on November 19, 2020, 07:05:30 PM
Do a downwinder now. That's what helped me most. Once you got the basics, just go fly down wind. You don't worry about staying upwind and can just enjoy it. Makes learning jibes easier because you can just keep trying over and over as you drift down the coast.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 19, 2020, 07:23:25 PM
This is exactly my thought. No hassles, just foil and fall and foil some more.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: obxDave on November 20, 2020, 12:46:40 AM
I'm going to pick up in the thread about wind window as I have a weird thing to ask. To stay upwind you keep your wing back towards the tail, right? Like you hold more back that forward. If you move the wing to the nose of the board, you head downwind. I gotta watch that YouTube video again because I swear he holds the wing out in front of him and I don't get that.

Someone needs to do videos for people who never wind surfed or kited. There's a lot of assumptions out there being made. If I see one more "how to Wingsurf" video that says, "you probably kited or windsurfed" I'm screaming. lol Be pedantic, we surfers and paddlers don't know. And we are the growth for you guys.

I thought about your upwind learning question. In the gazillion years Iíve been muckin around with water wind sports, I really learned everything about efficient sailing orientations on a good ole sailing dinghy long before any of these new fangled wind sports showed up. This might sound like a step backwards but learning to sail a Laser or 420 (or even a lowly Sunfish, or in my case racing Hobie 16ís in a one design fleet) teaches you more about efficient points of sail than any of these newer sports.  For the few years I worked as a windsurf and kiteboard instructor, teaching people how to effectively ride upwind by saying ďdo this and thisĒ is next to impossible. You can say it and demonstrate it, but it wonít just click. On a two person dinghy you can actually teach it and the people your teaching can start to ďfeelĒ it, as hokey as that sounds

If you donít want to bother learning to sail a dinghy (Iíd certainly understand that) then as others have said, be content to settle for downwind riding, and youíll slowly get an intuitive feel for how to work with the wind. Doesnít matter whether itís windsurfing, kiteboarding, kitefoiling, wing foiling, or a 40í cruiser, my brain treats it the same as those little dinghyís I grew up with, ďspot the gust, build some speed, sheet er in and point er up, but donít pinch too high and donít over sheet😀Ē
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on November 20, 2020, 01:53:55 AM
Hi Cowboy,

Upwind: try this right now.  Stand up, hold your imaginary wing straight in front of you and look straight at it.  Now rotate your head to look way over your front hand shoulder.  See what happened to your hands?  They mechanically went back a bit (or stayed still as your head and torso rotated away from them).  That is the basic motion of pointing.  Your head and shoulders will lead your body and your direction.  Twist your hips into it and you have most of the rest.  There are a lot of little subtleties that will help but these are the broad strokes.

Your progress is great!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on November 20, 2020, 08:11:59 AM
I assume a few zillion years of windsurfing helps, but I confess to being a little puzzled why people are having trouble going upwind. For a geezer with deteriorating balance, upwind is a piece of cake, downwind is a bitch. Upwind you get to hang on to something--in my case a fake boom--downwind the thing you were using to keep from falling is now trying to yank you off the board.

Even more important is apparent wind. Going Upwind at 10 mph at a 45-degree angle to the wind the 5.2 mph vector (cos(45)*speed) into the wind gets added to the wind speed, so 10mph wind becomes 15mph. Downwind it subtracts and if you're going straight downwind the vector is 100 percent of your speed, so the apparent wind is 0 mph and you're holding your wing up with both hands while you try to foil.

Losing the apparent wind is what makes gybing so hard. And all that apparent wind blowing in your face is what makes tacking hard.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: bigmtn on November 20, 2020, 09:42:40 AM
For me when learning the problem wasn't going upwind, it was staying upwind. I'd go upwind, then I'd fall, and would thus drift farther and farther downwind until I got back up. Kind of a one step upwind, 3 steps downwind. Once I got to the point that I could jibe consistently, staying upwind became much easier.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 20, 2020, 07:21:19 PM
Bigmtn called it. (You are my spirit animal.)

Admin, thanks, that video sort of says the opposite. Iíll post it and you guys can see.

Obx, I have a buddy whoís waiting to take me out in a dinghy. I am glad to hear that wonít be a waste. I was down for the novelty anyway. Iím really patient and want to learn things the right way, so I appreciate that.

Pono, I can go upwind now but Iím in that weird stage where Iím just not sure that Iím doing it right. And yes, not having wind surfed itís all weird. I think these things are too forgiving. You can get by doing stupid stuff. Add to that the lack of lessons available and Iím concerned that Iíll have bad habits. I need to record some video to let people analyze.

Thx!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on November 21, 2020, 03:51:09 AM
Here is a nice image of a guy modestly pointing.  This is pretty much textbook.  He is looking where he wants to go, his shoulders are open and his hips are twisted into it a little.  His arms have dropped back a little.  He is edging in lightly on the upwind rail.  He is just trying to hold or gain a little ground to turn and ride waves.  He has plenty of wind so no super steep angles required.  That is a great place for you to start.  Start with really mellow upwind angles.  Too steep upwind and you will stall or have to redirect downwind. 

Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 21, 2020, 03:53:43 PM
Thanks guys, I went out this am in 15+mph and hard a ball. Long rides across the lake and ended up farther upwind than I've done yet. Also maintained my altitude and direction on foil better than I have to date. Really great session. I can feel the progression accelerating. Still not getting up and staying up switch but riding back switch comfortably now. Getting on foil a little but that will take a while. In good news is be able to ride switch on foil which is great to learn from the start.

Today I was able to turn a bit on foil and also drive the wing to accelerate or ease up which was new. At the end of one run I had so much speed I dropped the wing behind me and pumped a few times. My surfing friends talk about surfing with the wing looking hard but it really wasn't in my way. If I can do that at this stage, downwind surfing will be doable for sure.

Interesting thing. When switch I seem way more back foot heavy. I can't seem to get my weight centered when switch. But that's what the next session is for.

Thx to all who are helping here. It's coming!!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on November 22, 2020, 12:37:24 AM
SWEEET!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on November 22, 2020, 06:14:15 PM
Where are you finding wind? Any idea where some might be tomorrow? I'm dying to get my wings out.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 22, 2020, 08:44:59 PM
Keeping this going.

I forgot to log that I also played with my stance. I kept slowly veering to heelside when on foil the last few sessions so I started playing with my stance based on seeing strap setups and hearing people talk about moving their back foot a lot. I accidentally found the right position once when I first flew in session 4-5. I just locked in.

Here's what is working. First my foil is all the way forward and my back foot is just in front of the mast and maybe 2" offset to toe side rail. My front foot is about 24" up and my toes are touching the center line (basically like the straps on every wing board.)

I saw a video on stance from MacKite and they say they when using a big foil wing you need to offset your stance. Surfing offset would be weird as a beginner but for winging it's necessary. I'm guessing that with the extra speed you get more stability/wing resistance. Anyway, it worked so I want to report it.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 22, 2020, 08:52:27 PM
Where are you finding wind? Any idea where some might be tomorrow? I'm dying to get my wings out.

Pono, I found a weird little lake in the grapevine called Castaic. There's a lower lagoon where they are cautiously allowing winging as a trial. PFD, helmet preferred though not required. Because it's in that mountain pass it gets a bit more wind than normal. Forecast is 13-18mph tomorrow but it's a hike. But you might check out big bear or arrowhead? Not sure if the temps work but you're pretty hardy.

I did think of another spot. Frank Bosall park. In San Dimas. Not sure of the forecast but same thing, LA County so should be same rules. If you go this week buzz me, I'm on a light work schedule. I'll message you.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Hdip on November 22, 2020, 09:10:28 PM
Pyramid lake is only another 20 minutes and seems to have wind whenever I drive by.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 22, 2020, 09:26:54 PM
Def gonna try Pyramid but I gotta get good enough to dodge the good ol' boys in boats and jet skis. 😂
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 24, 2020, 06:32:23 PM
Taking a work break this week and snuck out for a mid day wing.

Conditions were 10mph gusting to maybe 13-15. And just as you all said, I can pop up during a gust and ride through the lull. Low wind is actually fun too. It's fun to tear off at 100mph but chilling in low wind is fun too.

The lake is about 350 yds wide and with an NE wind I now back and forth across it. I'm consistently making it across on foil heelside regular stance and then shlogging back switch on the water. I got up on foil switch for 5 seconds and could have made kook of the day. I know it'll come.

But the big news is that I did a 170⁰ gybe on foil before crashing. This is doable. That's where I'm at. Also, with the gusty assed wind I'm used to I'll be rock solid when I get to some steady wind.

For those wondering, if you want to learn to surf, and don't have a boat or efoil, winging will get you time on foil. I'm getting several minutes on foil every session and soon I'll be getting an hour or more. I'll still have to adapt some skills to the waves but I'm learning how a foil works in a way that would take months in waves.

The only bad thing is that none of my surf buddies care at all , so this is the only place I can share how stoked I am. 😂
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Hdip on November 24, 2020, 09:50:03 PM
Do I still need to read this thread since you ha e these guys to cheer you on cowboy? 😀

Just kidding. Iím not going to castaic though.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 25, 2020, 07:48:07 AM
Haha. I'm just rubbing it in now. But these wingers have gotten me over the hump for sure.

But dude, come on, a spot so close to your house! I'm honestly just stoked at the real estate options this sport opens. I can move home to the South now and get 100 acres on a lake for $12.  ;D

Oh but just wait, my prone sessions are starting soon. Then you'll have to witness that here, and in the water.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on November 29, 2020, 11:30:21 PM
Showed up with 2 buddies today at the lake spot. I can now get the instant take off that you see in videos (and I'm sure you all already enjoy) at least on my heelside. Heelside foiling also feels good and I can angle hard upwind and am working on my form (back and shoulders.)

Did another half assed jibe and am starting to try to contort myself to ride normal stance toe side. I'll need to run downwind to get that I think. I think the efoil time has really helped my foiling but it may just also be TOW overall.

On the switch stance side of things, I got on foil again for a bit and while it doesn't feel "good" yet, I think I just need to go for it, suffer the falls, and figure it out.

It now is fun, even on the water returning switch is comfortable. Though I have a few more skills to work on, I feel like a wing foiler and I think I'm over the most painful part. I came home and had energy to spare, what?

For those tracking, or considering the sport, I'm on session 12.

Things that helped:
Everything in this thread that others said.
Patience and limiting my session time so I don't wear myself out.
3, 10-15 min sessions on efoils
Switch stance practice on a skateboard
15 mph wind

Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on December 25, 2020, 09:16:13 AM
Updating progression after 1-2 more sessions.

Iím now solid heelside with take off and flying. Iíve yet to dial topside but can get up on foil switch for a few seconds at a time (10-15 sec). Hoping to dial that soon so I can mow the lawn without crazy falls.


However, this sport tricks you as jut when you get over your crazy falls going straight, you want to start turning and then you go back to spectacular crashes lol. I can make a jibe almost all the way through but I fall off once going the other way. So Iím going to focus on getting toe side and switch riding solid before I jibe on foil. As was said, a big wing is nice because you coast through the turn without having to worry about wing power.

One tip about switch riding which Iím sure (again) kite guys know. My buddy told me to move my back foot towards the rail to offset the wind power instead of the front, which I was doing. Moving my front to the rail threw me into a weird wobbly unstable situation. This of course tracks with the fact that people ride with front straps a lot and obviously canít move that foot. (Duh.) so thats next for me. Get stable and learn to crank upwind switch and then string that together with turns.

Again, Iím still seeing progression with every 1-2 sessions and my buddies who are learning are doing the same. Wild thing to watch.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on January 02, 2021, 08:24:19 AM
Session ~15 and Iím working on riding on ďoffĒ side, either toe or switch. After trying toe side I figured out that I need more room to learn that. In the lake I canít really get far enough upwind yet to take the downwind angle I need to learn toe side. Iíll save that for larger lakes or for once I get switch. So I ďswitchedĒ strategies and focused on foiling switch and got some short rides with no crashes. Did a lot of taxi-ing too to get the feel for weight distribution.

One challenge to practice is that the lean back then come forward that Iím using to pop up is slower switch so Iím practicing that and going back to the beginner method of letting speed put you on foil. Itís coming and 2-4 sessions should have me on foil solidly on my off side.

Once I can do that Iíll feel confident in open water. (I could go now but just taking it slow and Iíd rather be able to go full speed either side in case I need to get back in fast.)

That should open the door to getting way upwind which will let me practice turns on long downwind reaches (is that the term?) And that, and my surfing should get me to a jibe on foil.

I really need to go ride with Pono in Mission Bay while heís there too. Same conditions as the lake with way more room to run.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on January 02, 2021, 03:00:34 PM
Next week looks pretty good according to iWindsurf. I've moved to La Jolla Shores now so Mission is pretty handy. It would be cool to get some wind here in La Jolla, but so far I haven't seen much.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on January 10, 2021, 08:28:14 AM
Ok so now able to start riding on foil switch. Still not pretty and not consistent but knowing how this all works Iím probably 2-3 sessions from getting that to where Iím comfortable. Iíll start trying toe side then but for now Iím going to start practicing on land since I seem to be pretty stiff in my waist and shoulder rotation.

One limitation to learning is that I really canít head upwind strongly switch so for now I have to only try when Iíve made good progress on my good side.

Yesterday was steady 15 mph with gusts to 20 (I think) and it felt overpowered at times with my 5m. I am learning to ďflyĒ the wing and depower and power it up as the wind shifts. I even used that second handle on the swing a bit. Lol  But man, I could use some steady Hawaiian wind. (Couldnít we all here in mainland winter?)

Got an Apple Watch and used Surfline Sessions to track my rides. Fastest speed I show was 13mph. Iím assuming that as I get better Iíll make more speed? I will say that when the speed hits 13 feels crazy fast with a strong wind blowing you. Must be wild in 30. It looks like I was going about as fast as the average wind with the gusts. Is this to be expected? And will speed come with experience (and yes, I think Iím about to try moving down to my faster foil on better days too.)

I want to also report that with my feet in the right position I can fully control this XL Gong Rise. I can see how the speed tops out but between managing my wing angles and keeping the front down, a small person can 100% learn on a big wing and itís is fun now to pop onto foil immediately. So Iím glad I have this wing to start with. Also, for switch riding itís been great to have the stability and slow reaction speed for sure.

Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on January 10, 2021, 01:21:08 PM
Fastest speed I show was 13mph. Iím assuming that as I get better Iíll make more speed? I will say that when the speed hits 13 feels crazy fast with a strong wind blowing you. Must be wild in 30. It looks like I was going about as fast as the average wind with the gusts. Is this to be expected?

Or 40, but that's heavy guy territory until you get some smaller wings.

When you can trim well, the highest speed angle is about 100 degrees to the wind. At that angle you can go quite a bit faster than windspeed if the wind is fairly light.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on January 13, 2021, 07:52:55 PM
Ok, I gave it a few days but I canít interpret ď100į to the wind ď

On a 360į plane, where is the wind from? And where is my nose aimed?

For example if wind is from 0į (North) Iíd normally go across it at 270į W or 90į E as an easy angle. What would you say my nose could reach if I was headed 90įand turned North?
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on February 06, 2021, 09:15:52 PM
Ok, 2-3 more sessions and the switch stance makes sense to me now. Iím riding with my front foot angled and my big toe maybe an inch off center. I was having trouble veering heel side sometimes when regular and then toe side when switch.

I seem to have solved both by leaving front foot in place on both and edging my back foot to where my toes are maybe 3-4 inches to the toe side rails. This allows me to control turns and keep straight on a reach when I want.

Rode a 6m wing in light wind today and loved it. Probably a good idea for SoCal and would open up a ton of days. My quiver may look more like 6 & 4 as I progress but Iím gonna see how my 5 goes as I learn. My pumping is coming along.

Ok so for straps, Iím not sure if a back strap will work for me with what Iím doing. Do I put one in behind my usual spot for when I need it and run with my foot out mostly or does the back strap give leverage to let me offset less? Iím getting curious about straps now.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Sam the Surfer on February 13, 2021, 10:57:08 AM
Wow, great thread!! We went to 3 mile last weekend. Iíve winged around 10 times and am using a Gong HIPE 5í3Ē 110L, Gong Rise XXl or Xl, 80 cm mast, 6 m Ozone or 9 m Gong superpower.
Iím able to fly heel side regular and go up wind. Switch is killing me. I can sail back and not lose ground but get ruined trying to fly. The wing dips down when I start flying and I crash into it. I am so frustrated am thinking of going toe side and flying to fight the rage. Thoughts and tips on toe side?
We are from Spokane and usually donít have enough wind. When I took the 9 m out I got ripped off the board in the air!! Lol
We are also not going out into the river past the inlet.

Thanks,

Ben
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on February 13, 2021, 01:13:58 PM
Man, itís all about patience. 2-3 sessions and each skill comes. But yeah thinking in switch seems so wrong and then it works. Glad you like the thread. It was to light the way when it seems impossible lol.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: bigmtn on February 13, 2021, 06:54:03 PM
Got my first tacks today! First attempt came really close, made it around, but dropped down off foil, but was able to pump back up onto foil fairly quickly. Next 4 or 5 attempts were worse, haha. Then boom, made it through and stayed on foil. Then proceeded to do 4 more in a row without falling or coming off foil. I wouldn't call them smooth, haha, but they felt pretty good!

This video helped me visualize the movement:
https://youtu.be/HrY2IOHUsa8

Now to figure out going back the other direction, heal to toe side.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Admin on February 14, 2021, 02:12:11 AM
Sweet!   You guys are killing it.  No better feeling than hard earned achievement.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on February 16, 2021, 08:20:50 AM
Yeah Bill! Thatís rad. Iím still sort of brain broken on the wing moves of heel to toe racks but I know like all wing things itís just ďtry it and youíll feel it.Ē

Congratulations and yes, the purpose of this thread was to show how the progression of basics in winging flow:

Impossible
Then wonky
Then acceptable
Then smooth

In 1-2 sessions per stage once youíve built the previous skills to start trying. This seems to be my path to switch and now Iím confirming it on Jibes.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on February 18, 2021, 07:01:33 AM
The wing switch for tacks is super-easy with a fake boom. I did one a few days ago one-handed. Shocked the shit out of me that it worked. I just turned upwind and let the wing blow over my head. I sailed out of the tack one-handed and then switched about a hundred yards later, then blew about ten jibes in a row.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on February 18, 2021, 08:41:58 PM
I made a mini boom for my Switch. Itís front handle to just behind the last one which I hope will give me a little more grunt on light days.

Canít wait to try it.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on April 26, 2021, 07:26:25 PM
Keeping this going for myself more than anyone else.

Mini boom with paddle shaft was too thick. Need around 7/8Ē or so for me so Iíve not bothered with it. Eventually I might make another but Iím alright with handles for now.

Progress? I feel like I plateaued for a bit. But thatís actually more of a feeling and impatience. No jibes yet. But switch riding has gotten better and better and Iíve gotten better and better at getting up in light wind. Working on this has given me a ton of fun and I highly recommend it if you live in a place with less consistent wind. You can do a lot with a smaller wing than you think. We have not seen the lower limit yet. Especially with v2+ wings. (Iím on v1 still) but Iíve felt stalled on turns and jibes for maybe two months (which is like 6 sessions at my rate so thereís that.)

Iím not a big ďgear makes you betterĒ guy but I know Iím hitting the limits of my big 2100 cm low aspect wing. I love it and am really glad I stayed on it so long but Iím starting to look for a new wing to try. Hoping my Curve LT at 1450 works but also want someone larger with a finer profile for these low low wind days Iím cheating on. Iím basically not able to carry enough glide through the turns without coming in damn hot lol. Though I did, yesterday, make my first heelside to toeside jibe and ride away. The wind died on me, but I call it a make. I didnít fall, just came off foil in that sad way you do when the gust fades.

And then the new board (yeah I need a build thread, been too busy.) 7 months or so on my 6í4Ēx28Ē sup/wing starter got me a solid start. If youíre translating, that is likely maybe 26-27 sessions. So, if youíre wondering if the hassle of buying and selling and upgrading a wing board is real, yeah, because if youíre doing 2-4 sessions a week that board is really only good for like 2-3 months. Tough gear curve.

Anyway, new guy is 5í2Ēx26 and no idea on liters but just under 5Ē thick at back. 13.6 lbs. It floats me but the deck is not over an inch out of the water. Itís at the lower end of what I can ride and therefore perfect right now. First session was easy in flat water and so while itíll be a challenge in chop, itíll be very doable. But man, what a difference! So light and fun. Instantly more manageable when on foil. I can feel the foil better and the effect of lower swing weight cannot be overstated. I can turn and play with the foil in a way that I simply couldnít with the larger board.

No loss in ability to get on foil either. This sport is not about planing really, just get enough speed to where your hops/pumps allow the foil to lift you and youíre up and gone. Also the reduced length and box placement allowed me to balance the foil better using the KDMaui method. (Thx Blue Planet for that podcast.)

And then, thereís pumping. I could not get the rhythm of pumping beyond one or two pumps with the larger board. On this one I was able to pump the board or wing or both to stay moving. I might prone surf this thing a bit and I thought guys were crazy for doing that before. This will work. In a weird but cool turn of events, because I never foiled or pumped much before winging I can actually pump switch too which is a nice advance. I am feeling like I might eventually be able to surf either side. Iím left handed so ambidexterity is fairly common. Next session, luff the wing and see if I can keep this thing cruising.

A fun thing I did as well is at the end of my switch runs sometimes Iíd just lay the board over and see how hard I could turn. You can crank turns with a wing just like you do with a paddle. The potential is there for some really cool moves with work.

Final progression note is that with that one jibe I did I can see how you can learn to ride toeside. Bigmtn talks about doing a short downwinder so you donít have to care about staying upwind, you can just go and lose ground if you want. Thatís the key I think, just jibe and see where it takes me til I get it. But it felt yesterday like switch used to. Awkward, but possible. Like I said, big day for progression and more to come.


Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on July 25, 2021, 08:38:29 AM
Ok, catch up and reflect 11 months in. For those like me that donít have great wind all the time, this takes a while. Iíve also been learning to prone foil at the same time so consider that. Thatís not an excuse, itís just to say that Iím somewhere in like the low 30ís for a session count so you could do this faster. My progression for a beginner seems acceptable (lol) in that Iím not quitting, just being patient as I do progress. Iím betting a week long trip to Hawaii or anywhere thereís good wind and a range of conditions will help a ton. (If I can keep bigmtn from dragging me into terrifying conditions lol)

Iím updating next with a post from Sharksupper about speed and jibes but hereís what I can do. All of this was fun to learn (after the first couple of weeks) and this sport is great. Do it if you have halfway decent conditions.

With a 5m wing and my 5í2Ē board I can:

Get up and ride heelside in 12mph+ wind up to about 20mph gusts (I have a 4m that I can almost do this.)

Get up and ride switch in slightly more wind. Working on this technique. My body is out of position I think. Need video.

I can get up and ride both ways in up to waist high chop. Above that I struggle so Iíve been doing lakes and smaller ocean days so far.

I can stay upwind off the foil or on foil in good conditions. However I get sucked downwind when trying to get up in marginal low wind conditions since you go for and fail to get on foil and lose ground. After 3-4 attempts, itís hard to gain back. In good wind, no issues, I can crank upwind pretty well. Learning to jibe will fix this immediately.

Still havenít gotten jibes (or tacks) on foil. I can do both off foil reliably. This seems to be related to my lack of experience turning at speed and inability to ride toeside . Thatís my next 2 areas of focus.

I am adapting to smaller wings and foils and boards as I go. This isnít that hard but Iíd offer that you donít push it. Drop board size first and if you use a bigger foil, make sure it glides. Iím moving off my thick profile big foil which was amazing to learn on, to a thinner profile on light wind days. Eventually Iíll be able to maybe have one foil for most conditions but the big boy is a cheat code on light days.

If someone asked me, and everyone will vary of course, if you were able to go once a week and hadnít foiled a lot before I think in a couple of months you could be having fun and in a year you might be slightly ahead of me and jibing which imho makes you a half decent foiler capable of riding and having fun in a wide range of conditions. (I have a ton of fun without jibes but have to choose my conditions more carefully.)

If you are an experienced foiler, itís all easier lol. I started to learn this sport to make my foiling better and it did. Now Iím working on prone foiling to get better at turning without the wing. So each sport helped the other for me at different times. If you live where there arenít waves, a boat would be the alternative to help with foil skills and it doesnít take much. Your buddyís fishing boat works fine.

Thanks for all who helped get me this far. Iíll keep this going. I need some video and am hoping to get that in the next couple of weeks. Stay tuned!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on July 25, 2021, 08:48:03 AM
Adding @sharksupperís great post about jibes and speed.


óó Hey brother!  No worries.  I've found that it's the helping each other out and growing together that makes these sports fun!  ;D  I've taught and am currently teaching several people.

I can't say my advice is "right" or even the best way, it's just how I came to do things naturally.  My background is that I learned to surf foil a few years ago on a standup board.  I also windsurfed for 30years.  Both involve quite a bit of speed in the turns, so I was already used to going fast, mentally (it's kind of scary going fast!).  I do recommend as you get comfortable with foiling to push the speeds (in a straight line) and see what the foil will do and get used to a bit of speed and staying in control at speed.  The fact is the more speed you carry though the jibe (without blowing up that is!) the easier you're going to make the jibe flying.  First thing is first though, I learned to ride "toe side" or "switch foot" first, off the foil, then on the foil.  After that, the jibes came much easier.  You will either be jibing and ending up switch foot, or starting switch foot and ending up in your regular stance.  Yes, there are a few people who switch their feet and I have a few friends who keep trying to learn to jibe by changing feet in the middle of the jibe, I don't recommend this!  it upsets the board/foil too much usually.  The other thing I see people doing is fiddling with the wing during the turn and then forgetting to fly the foil and spitting out the board.  With enough speed, you can just about make a whole jibe without ever touching the wing!  I tell people "fly the foil first".  Try to just make the 180 degree carve on the foil, even if you have to gently bring it back down to the water at the end... vs trying to power up with the wing and distracting yourself too much to remember to keep the foil in control.  After you have built the muscle memory to control the foil through that turn, you can then add powering up the wing and even switching the feet if that's your path (I don't personally).  Anyway, hard to teach by typing, really need to see where you're at in person and make personal advice, but the above is generally what I've been giving to my friends learning. óóó


Hereís my take on what Iím doing. First, back to shlogging off foil to learn toeside. I donít wanna do it but I think itíll help me finish jibes.

Second, Iíve started doing S-turns while on foil to feel how the wing reacts. So much lift is made while turning, itís crazy. So learning to control that is good.

At the end of my straight runs, Iíve started trying to do a jibe without the wing. I put it over my head and go for a 180į turn. Iím getting about 135į right now. Be careful, this can lead to high speed taco falls if you breach a tip so Iím playing with these carefully and will build up to them. About 6mo ago I was boldly going for it and had a few hard falls and that slowed me down a bit.

I think that toeside riding will likely get me there as Iím really close to completing turns and if I was comfortable toeside I think I could pull through a partial turn. Itís hard to go back to basics again but Iíve learned that nothing in this sport takes more than a few sessions and patience pays off.

That and building comfort in faster turns should get me over the hump. Iím considering putting a front fin in my wing board and trying to SUP it a bit too to get more wave experience.

 


As for what speed you should go... each foil is different, so I can't say... Whatever speed you can start trying to carve the turn with without blowing up is the right speed for you.  See how far you can just glide though a turn without kicking out the board.  You might only make it 45 degrees around at first, then 90, eventually near 180.  Let the wing stay neutral and out of the way as you do this.  Plan on just gliding down to the water in control at the end... you will feel the foil run out of energy/lift and know it's time to come down gently for a landing.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: bigmtn on July 26, 2021, 01:27:43 PM
my recommendation for learning jibes. 
get speed up
depower wing (one hand it)
turn downwind (wind should keep you flying) think 90-120 deg turn. if there are waves/bumps turn onto bump, so you can ride bump while wing is depowered
switch hands (both hands now, but wing is flat and still depowered)
slowly finish the turn, while slowly adding more power to wing
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on July 26, 2021, 06:50:25 PM
As usual, thatís solid advice.

Question for the team. I notice that when I start to slow down my nose rises. Am I just unconsciously weighting the back foot? And if so, can I assume that I should just keep the hammer down and take the last bit of the glide? I notice this when ending a reach and de powering the wing switch.

I think Iím too back footed in general when riding switch. My next board is going to have a lot more nose volume so I can keep the front foot heavy. Right now this board has too little volume in my opinion. Maybe a lot of boards do? I need to ride some other wing boards.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Solent Foiler on July 28, 2021, 06:36:05 AM
... My next board is going to have a lot more nose volume so I can keep the front foot heavy. Right now this board has too little volume in my opinion. Maybe a lot of boards do? I need to ride some other wing boards.
It's an interesting point. In designing the Lethal I think Patrice moved the volume as far back as possible to keep it under the feet, so it's quite nose light. I've put my footstraps all the way back so that my front foot doesn't shove the nose under water when trying to get foiling and shloging around in the light. Can be really choppy where I am so a bit more stability is welcome as it's really tippy at volume=weight. Fortunately that hasn't upset the balance when foiling, and it hangs flat in the 'hang from the front foil' test

I'm sure I've seen a nose bulb on one new wing board recently - can't remember which...

On the nose rising when slowing down, [I am speculating here] but that's probably to do with the stab losing lift quicker than the front foil when approaching stall speed. If you were to design it the other way, the front foil would release first with zero chance of recovery, but if the stab goes first it increases the angle of attack on the main foil giving a few more moments to recover the situation... Could be that as you slow down you're trying to keep the nose up as lift is decreasing?
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Dontsink on July 28, 2021, 07:13:33 AM
Lift of a given foil depends on Speed and Angle of Attack(AOA).
More Speed increases lift with same AOA.
More AOA increases lift with same Speed.

So if you are slowing down through the gybe it is normal that you require more AOA (nose up) to maintain height.

Bank angle is also a factor.Turning hard increases the load the foil has to carry,so you need more AOA to maintain height in a carve.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on July 28, 2021, 08:04:19 AM
Solent, thanks man. Good feedback that the nose thing may be more common than I was thinking. Iím still not 100% confident in my position on the board fore/aft. It feels good but I need some videos for you guys to review.

Dontsink, makes sense. One thing Iíd like to here more on though is that in my experience and a lot of folks, you generate more lift turning so I tend to have to fight the nose a bit. My prone buddies talk about this a lot.

I figure that as I slow down Iím unconsciously putting weight back to keep flying. Going to try to just keep the nose down and see where the glide gets me and see how that does. By the time Iím in that nose up position Iím barely moving so itís mellow.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Dontsink on July 28, 2021, 09:43:13 AM
Solent, thanks man. Good feedback that the nose thing may be more common than I was thinking. Iím still not 100% confident in my position on the board fore/aft. It feels good but I need some videos for you guys to review.

Dontsink, makes sense. One thing Iíd like to here more on though is that in my experience and a lot of folks, you generate more lift turning so I tend to have to fight the nose a bit. My prone buddies talk about this a lot.

I figure that as I slow down Iím unconsciously putting weight back to keep flying. Going to try to just keep the nose down and see where the glide gets me and see how that does. By the time Iím in that nose up position Iím barely moving so itís mellow.

This is all IMHO of course:

If you keep the nose down on gybe exit you will glide on whatever mast height you have,until you touch down or put the power back in.
I would play with it because this can be more efficient than squeezing the AOA too close to stalling.Foils become very mushy/unstable at their low speed limit and require a bigger power surge to get going again vs loosing some mast height and maintaining speed a bit.

As for surffoiling turns:
(Waves are 3D, all angles and curves and power zones.Lots of energy in different forms,so best i can do is simplify the model to a carve in flat water,like releasing a tow rope and carving.)

A turn does not generate more lift or speed by itself.The foil is a lot draggier (higher AOA) when carving, in a "passive rider" turn we slow down or sink,period.
Just like an airplane flying straight and level,if you turn you either increase power,or loose speed,or loose height.

But most surfers will  enter a turn compressed and extend,slightly or a lot, through the carve.They add a "pump" into the turn.This adds energy into the equation and speed increases.

I think there are more factors involved in this "more lift" feel in a turn,like shifting our CG position as the trajectory changes (in most gliding sports we loose balance rearwards in turns) or how banking is going to bring the outside tip uncomfortably close to the surface (or breach it) so intuitively we feel high and want to sink the mast deeper.

Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on July 28, 2021, 10:01:12 AM
Gaining lift by increasing AOA is expensive and momentary--lots of drag. You'll slow rapidly, and speed IS lift, you're chasing a rapidly declining factor. Changes to AOA or any other factor change lift linearly. Changes to speed change lift exponentially. Boom--physics.

Keep the nose down, look where you want to go, bend your knees, go fast.

Of course, I still suck at this, but it's just my windsurfer mind dueling with wingfoiling reality.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: bigmtn on July 28, 2021, 12:55:59 PM
As usual, thatís solid advice.

Question for the team. I notice that when I start to slow down my nose rises. Am I just unconsciously weighting the back foot? And if so, can I assume that I should just keep the hammer down and take the last bit of the glide? I notice this when ending a reach and de powering the wing switch.

I think Iím too back footed in general when riding switch. My next board is going to have a lot more nose volume so I can keep the front foot heavy. Right now this board has too little volume in my opinion. Maybe a lot of boards do? I need to ride some other wing boards.

simple, just don't slow down.  go faster. Real cowboys aint scared.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on July 29, 2021, 08:27:37 AM
Thx you three.

And yeah as I play this out in my mind I can feel what Iím doing. I think itís more unconscious than conscious. Gonna fight the urge and push forward and get used to feeling that last bit of glide. I know Iím wasting 6Ē to a foot of runway and thatís probably just enough to complete a jibe.

Headed to Catalina for 4 days and have a good forecast so Iíll be trying a lot of stuff. Gonna do a downwind drift or two and work on toe side and more serious S turns. I really think that is my next frontier since Iíll bet when that wing starts to power up toe side Iím putting weight back to counter it. I need to stay centered and pull toe side, not back to stay on the board. Iíll give a sport report as well.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: radair on July 29, 2021, 05:53:25 PM
I started winging in January after 6 months of wake foiling as much as possible. I went to Florida for about 6 weeks with the primary goal of coming home as a wing foiler. It worked! I do have a long way to go though. I wish I had found this thread last fall when I began the battle.

I agree that a great way to learn to gibe is to do a downwinder. While I still suck at gibing I have had success going slightly downwind to gain speed, focusing on a continuous foil turn (ignore the wing briefly to carve the board), look ahead (not at the wing) and using the wing to power through the end of the turn. For some reason this is way easier when youíre not trying to stay upwind.

Iím still a kook but more than happy to pay my dues to get proficient. Cheers
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: jrobmaui on August 05, 2021, 12:53:32 PM
Hey -- I'm stuck in the phase of getting up on the foil but can't sustain flight.  Many failures are the classic stall and falling back.  In those cases I'm trying to apply front foot pressure and speed but it doesn't seem to work.  Have read the earlier tips and would appreciate any more ideas on getting out of this phase.

Thanks.

Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Pasquales on August 05, 2021, 02:11:12 PM
I just passed the one year mark in my wing foil journey, and checked out the local spot yesterday on my lunch hour.  There are significantly more folks and beginners out in the water, so it's great seeing the scene grow. 

jrobmaui - Regarding your question about sustaining flight.  The simple answer  - Foiling in good wind (above 15 mph) makes staying on foil much easier.  When it is up and down, milking every gust becomes the norm to get up and keep flying.  If you are winging in good wind and still having this problem, it could be due to leaning too far back, and killing the initial power after popping up. It can also be due to leaning and turning the board too far upwind after getting on foil.  This can cause the foil to stall.  So good winds make it easier.  For average days, weight distribution is key.  Try leaning slightly forward when pumping.  When you come on to foil, begin to straighten your arms and body while keeping the wing slightly in front of you.  The pressure of the wing should pull you forward as you continue building speed on foil.  When you feel pressure in your wing, slowly start turning upwind.  One of the biggest mistake is turning too early.
 
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on August 05, 2021, 09:33:09 PM
Jrob, yes Pasqualeís said it. If youíre in light wind that sounds about right. I was lucky and only got on foil on a really solid 15mph day. But when it was marginal I often would get that stall and fall thing. (Still do if itís super light.)

Give us some more info this board is full of good wingers.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: bigmtn on August 06, 2021, 12:06:12 PM
Hey -- I'm stuck in the phase of getting up on the foil but can't sustain flight.  Many failures are the classic stall and falling back.  In those cases I'm trying to apply front foot pressure and speed but it doesn't seem to work.  Have read the earlier tips and would appreciate any more ideas on getting out of this phase.

Thanks.

what foil are you on? weight etc
sounds like you're pumping up on foil before you have enough speed.  build a little more speed before you try to get up in the air. 

if the board comes up real easily, move the foil back a bit.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: jrobmaui on August 06, 2021, 12:29:02 PM
I'm 175 lbs + wetsuit, 125L Naish board, Infinity 84 2000 cm^2 wing, 71cm mast, 6m wing in 15 mph, very flat water. Have mast set dead center in track.  Several people including this thread advise no pumping for beginners so I've been trying that but one gets impatient.  Am old windsurfer, no foil or kite experience.

Something weird happened at the end of the last session.  Was slogging back to shore, needed a little turn downwind, and put in a *tiny* bit of yaw with feet and the board started to rise up in a really smooth, level, controlled manner.  Then shoreline intervened.  Baffling.

jrob
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on August 06, 2021, 12:53:29 PM
That little turn DW likely got you there. As I wrote, some things just feel bad until they magically work one day. Gear sounds good. Iíll bet you get it next session.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Kojack on August 07, 2021, 04:54:27 AM
Thanks for this thread.  It is really helpful.  I was a long time windsurfer, surfer and sup surfer-mostly sup surfer now.  51 years old 6'3" 195 pounds.  One session behind a boat and now 6 days winging.  First two days, maybe 20 seconds on foil total on my strong side-goofy foot and lots of long walks back up wind.  Day 3 and Day 4 in NC got some instruction.  Day 4 was a mess started on a 5.5 and ended up over powered and crushed on a 3.5 getting up and getting overpowered and crashing. 

Day 4 was a good day-up for over 1 min at a time a few times in 12-14mph wind on a 6.5m wing 

Day 5 and Day 6 I am now riding on foil both on strong side and also heel side on my weak side with no walks of shame!!!! That is the best not having to walk back.  Really shelly beaches here and booties are a must despite the fact that I dont like wearing them.  I am riding a 5'11" board with a 5.5 and 4.5 wing.  Have an Axis 1060 foil that I have moved further and further back in the box-moved it over an inch yesterday.  Still getting crazy lift in really powered up conditions.  I have only tried one gybe and ate it big time despite trying to stay really forward on the board.  I have two weeks of vacation in MA in front of me and am hoping for at least 10 days on the water before heading home.  We had surf yesterday-plenty of size but windy and I chose to head to the sound side and go winging vs surfing.  Never thought that would happen.

lots of bumps and bruises but man is this fun.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on August 07, 2021, 07:48:22 AM
Kojack, thanks, and thx to the guys who filled in this knowledge.

Iím jealous of you wind guy lol. Yíall get everything so much faster. Headed to the lake today to work on toe side riding with some buddies.

Loving that folks are filling in the info here with their own experience learning. That was exactly the idea.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on August 08, 2021, 08:36:32 AM
Ok, posting my adventures in 180įís for Bigmtn. He and Hdip have been recommending I just go for it, full send, to learn to jibe. Itís true but not without some hard falls. But yeah, this is the way.

I really didnít understand how fast you can enter a turn on a foil and make it. Itís crazy. You need to be able to moderate your height well as you will breach if you just turn at speed but Iím basically taking my wing overhead with one hand, fully weighting my front foot, an initiating what I think is a crazy turn and it works. Keep the nose down, keep pushing through, and the board goes. It feels crazy.

Cautions. If youíre a guy, you can over turn and slap you cojones on the water at speed in a way that only a middle aged man understands. If you let the nose come up at the end, you can (will?) taco and land on your rail or foil. Mostly rail for me. But this works and if youíve not got a lot of surf foil experience you might not believe how these things can turn.

Anyway, my watch shows me making it all the way around to 180 about half the time now so Iím getting there. Be careful but also, go for it.

PS it feels amazing to lay into a turn like this.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Hwy1north on August 08, 2021, 10:35:26 AM
I'm 175 lbs + wetsuit, 125L Naish board, Infinity 84 2000 cm^2 wing, 71cm mast, 6m wing in 15 mph, very flat water. Have mast set dead center in track.  Several people including this thread advise no pumping for beginners so I've been trying that but one gets impatient.  Am old windsurfer, no foil or kite experience.

Something weird happened at the end of the last session.  Was slogging back to shore, needed a little turn downwind, and put in a *tiny* bit of yaw with feet and the board started to rise up in a really smooth, level, controlled manner.  Then shoreline intervened.  Baffling.

jrob

Jrob, that 84 foil is a bit wierd, but it does work well once on foil.  Depending on where you place the mast; ie, close to the foil, or in the back position, would greatly effect the performance and my advise to you.  If you have the mast close to the foil, then I would move the mast to the front of the box, if the other, then more towards the back.  You really need to get some board speed by bearing off and pumping the wing, do this by raising the wing in more of an overhead movement and pulling down as opposed to pulling in like a sail, this will get weight off your feet and allow the foil to rise os its own.  More high performance foils can be pumped onto foil with your feet a bit more aggressively, but the 84 is so wide, it will stall if you don't get the nose back down just right.  So best to use board speed first, then lift smoothly.  Once on foil, its a very easy foil to ride, but then jibing, same issue; must be smooth without a lot of up and down pumping of the board.  Once on foil, then sheet in and head upwind to get your apparent wind working for you.  If you lift, but fall off foil, then you probably lifted too steep (too mush back foot) and/or didn't push your front foot hard enough as you sheeted in.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Kojack on August 12, 2021, 12:59:11 PM
Just wrapped up two great days.  Rode my 4.5mm wing, shimmed my rear tail wing and rode on an Axis 860 a friend lent me front foil fully powered.  On foil all the time now both ways and getting up quickly.  Still riding both ways heel side, no toe side riding yet.  Gybes are not there-getting close but have not made one yet.  Tons of seaweed-eel grass making it tougher from what I am told to gybe.  Less ventilating and rode the entire 1 mile crossing and back without any falls other than in the turns.  Really need to make a gybe-it is starting to tick me off.  No consistency to my fails-sometimes over foil sometimes i get the board around and then come off foil.  I think a bit less wind may help as I was def overpowered a lot of the time today.  The fun continues tomorrow as it will be windy again.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: oakfish on August 17, 2021, 10:20:51 AM
Hwy1north: Thanks for the infinity 84 specific information. Really helpful. I'm riding the 84 and I've been working on pumping to get on foil. Seems like I can rise up on the foil briefly, but it won't stay up. I'm thinking about going back to my 99cm.
2 questions for you:
1) I have this setup:https://slingshotsports.com/collections/complete-foils-wing-surf/products/hover-glide-fsup-v3 . There is no way to move the mast forward/backward along the fuse. Should I buy a longer fuse?
2) Based on your experience, do you think there is a better foil for the beginner+ phase? The Infinity is HEAVY and other foils seem so light. I know everyone has their favorite foil, but the Infinity always gets moderate approval. Is it worth moving to a different foil?
Thanks!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on August 17, 2021, 08:52:31 PM
Oak, Iíd say that from what I know no one sells a foil that wonít fly. You might have something set up wrong but even the wonkiest foil rig Iíve put together has stayed on foil.

Do you have someone who can check that 84 out for you or maybe try it behind a boat? It seems weird that you can get on foil but not maintain. The reason I ask is that Iíve heard of people flipping their tail wings or something. As to size, itís usually shocking how small a foil will fly most people. (Hence all the guys who can ride 980 and 1050 foils.) Just would hate to see you buy new gear if yours is just messed up a little.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: oakfish on August 18, 2021, 11:56:43 AM
Cowboy...thanks for the reply, but I miscommunicated my problem. I'm making great progress on flying, especially when I can gather enough speed without pumping. I've been working on pumping up to foil, though, and sometimes I can get up on foil, but then stall as Hwy1north mentioned. I will definitely try and keep the nose down when pumping.
I was more curious if this idiosyncrasy was specific to the Infinity 84 and that maybe a different foil would be more forgiving. For example, if the naish of gofoil were really that much better (they've gotta be lighter!)
I was also curious if I should invest in a fuselage with multiple mast mounting options. My fuse can only take the mast in one spot.
I also mentioned my 99cm wing, though I suppose I was simply thinking out loud. That thing pops onto a foil so easily. The only downside is that when you start going fast, it really wants to nose dive. I have to shift all my weight back just to keep the nose from diving. I believe it is designed that way to prevent overfoiling with such a large wing.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on August 18, 2021, 07:38:20 PM
Ah, got it.

The stall is one that you can beat. Hereís my experience. When pumping up I tend to end up back foot heavy. But the second I feel that Iím on the last pump, I get forward. For me this feels like Iím pulling myself onto a flat plane with the wing. The foil rockets ahead. Think about a skateboard Ollie but itís maybe easier if you use that wing pump to pull yourself to weight the nose more.

The high speed dive could maybe be fixed with a shim Iíll bet. Either tail or base plate even. Lots of foils need tweaks. Iím curious how much better my ride could be with some tweaking but Hdip wonít hurry up and get able to ride my smaller gear. (Give him 4 sessions.) ;)
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: ninja tuna on August 18, 2021, 07:56:48 PM
Oakfish,  Cowboy gave you great information about the stall and controlling it.  I had that problem in lighter winds.  You are working on pumping the foil up, but then do not forget about the wing in your hand to keep flying.  I did the same as you where I would pump to get up on the foil but then forgot to grab some air in the wing to keep going and back down I went.  Just an idea.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Hdip on August 18, 2021, 08:19:01 PM
Give me wind Iíll ride it. But Iím not that great at tuning gear. Iím better at adjusting my style to fit the gear. Probably backwards.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on August 19, 2021, 07:08:11 AM
Thatís sort of what I think I may be doing but donít quite know enough to tell really yet. ;)
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: clay on August 19, 2021, 11:11:42 AM
Cowboy...thanks for the reply, but I miscommunicated my problem. I'm making great progress on flying, especially when I can gather enough speed without pumping. I've been working on pumping up to foil, though, and sometimes I can get up on foil, but then stall as Hwy1north mentioned. I will definitely try and keep the nose down when pumping.
I was more curious if this idiosyncrasy was specific to the Infinity 84 and that maybe a different foil would be more forgiving. For example, if the naish of gofoil were really that much better (they've gotta be lighter!)
I was also curious if I should invest in a fuselage with multiple mast mounting options. My fuse can only take the mast in one spot.
I also mentioned my 99cm wing, though I suppose I was simply thinking out loud. That thing pops onto a foil so easily. The only downside is that when you start going fast, it really wants to nose dive. I have to shift all my weight back just to keep the nose from diving. I believe it is designed that way to prevent overfoiling with such a large wing.

Easiest sure fire way I have found to know is have an advanced foiler ride your gear, just seeing someone ride it with ease will dispell doubt and show that it's possible.
Going fast and nose diving is usually a sign that the rear stabilizer needs more down force, basically shim the trailing edge up or the leading edge down.  I have yet to ride a front wing that has a negative angle of incidence and nose dives by design.  The 48cm stab is a beast and can be difficult to adjust pitch, the 42 is similarly sized to a lot at stabs out there.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: oakfish on August 19, 2021, 11:24:28 AM
Clay, you know WAY more than I do. I'm just basing that statement on the slingshot teaser video. They said the foil is designed to have a downforce in the wing tip at high speed.
Check out minutes 1:30 : https://blog.slingshotsports.com/hydrofoil-wing-performance-3-new-hover-glide-infinity-foil-wings/
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Dontsink on August 19, 2021, 12:16:05 PM
Clay, you know WAY more than I do. I'm just basing that statement on the slingshot teaser video. They said the foil is designed to have a downforce in the wing tip at high speed.
Check out minutes 1:30 : https://blog.slingshotsports.com/hydrofoil-wing-performance-3-new-hover-glide-infinity-foil-wings/

I think that is a pretty standard design principle in foils,sails,airplane wings etc..some twist in the foil towards the tips.

I saw a Naish vid of a computer animation of their foil design software,low pressure areas in red and high in blue.

At cruise speed only the center third of the foil actually produces lift,the outer thirds sre "neutral" .They are actually doing a big job as endplates preventing the high pressure on the bottom moving to the low pressure on top.

If we push the foil past its design speed/angle of attack range the tips start producing downforce.I have gotten my Takuma 1210 up to 18kt but it becomes very squirrely,feels like a loaded spring trying to come out of the water and if you overdo a tiny bit he front foot pressure it drops like a stone.I think this is the tips biting down too far,removing all the low press on top and dumping the lift.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on August 19, 2021, 02:58:52 PM
Clay, you know WAY more than I do. I'm just basing that statement on the slingshot teaser video. They said the foil is designed to have a downforce in the wing tip at high speed.
Check out minutes 1:30 : https://blog.slingshotsports.com/hydrofoil-wing-performance-3-new-hover-glide-infinity-foil-wings/

Apparently by magic. They might mean the wing has some washout, which would mean different amounts of lift at varied locations of the wing at various angles of attack. But saying it has downforce at higher speed without some kind of servos, shape-shifting, or a demon inside the wing is simply nonsense. It also means we're headed into the next level of marketspeak usually encountered with oddly-shaped fins.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Dontsink on August 19, 2021, 03:31:32 PM
Clay, you know WAY more than I do. I'm just basing that statement on the slingshot teaser video. They said the foil is designed to have a downforce in the wing tip at high speed.
Check out minutes 1:30 : https://blog.slingshotsports.com/hydrofoil-wing-performance-3-new-hover-glide-infinity-foil-wings/

Apparently by magic. They might mean the wing has some washout, which would mean different amounts of lift at varied locations of the wing at various angles of attack. But saying it has downforce at higher speed without some kind of servos, shape-shifting, or a demon inside the wing is simply nonsense. It also means we're headed into the next level of marketspeak usually encountered with oddly-shaped fins.

Not magic at all,washout or twist is used in just about any foil application you can think of.
Wings,propellers,turbines,foils etc...

And of course they create downforce if the angle of attack gets low enough (like going fast).
I remember pulling the bar full back when i flew Hang gliders and watching the tips go negative as the speed went up.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: flkiter on August 29, 2021, 02:14:11 PM
Here's a vid I did on getting up switch stance. Helps with getting up regular stance also for those learning.. Basically get some speed, lift in the wing and get to your feet with them in a sup stance, not surf.  I did it on a 4'8 79 liter board in about 12 mph.
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CTKtZKvDJWh/?utm_medium=copy_link
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on August 29, 2021, 11:51:35 PM
Clay, you know WAY more than I do. I'm just basing that statement on the slingshot teaser video. They said the foil is designed to have a downforce in the wing tip at high speed.
Check out minutes 1:30 : https://blog.slingshotsports.com/hydrofoil-wing-performance-3-new-hover-glide-infinity-foil-wings/

Apparently by magic. They might mean the wing has some washout, which would mean different amounts of lift at varied locations of the wing at various angles of attack. But saying it has downforce at higher speed without some kind of servos, shape-shifting, or a demon inside the wing is simply nonsense. It also means we're headed into the next level of marketspeak usually encountered with oddly-shaped fins.

Not magic at all,washout or twist is used in just about any foil application you can think of.
Wings,propellers,turbines,foils etc...

And of course they create downforce if the angle of attack gets low enough (like going fast).
I remember pulling the bar full back when i flew Hang gliders and watching the tips go negative as the speed went up.

I'm pretty certain I mentioned all that, but downforce? You actually think there's enough washout to produce downforce in the tiny range of AOA on a foil with two feet of air space (at the most) between flying and not? I'll buy relatively less lift (and I still doubt that), but downforce--nope. Washout is twisting the wingtips so the trailing edge is higher than the leading edge. The aim of washout is to equalize lift at the wingtips at low angles of attack and low relative speed, like turning tightly where the inside wing is moving slower than the outer. Hang glider wings flex a lot and can change their washout when speed and therefore pressure on the wingtips increases. Foil wings don't flex.  I used to fly ultralights--mostly a pterodactyl, a fledge with a snowmobile motor. Other than flattening the wing which makes them prone to spinning, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "go negative". And it certainly doesn't happen with a foil.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: ninja tuna on August 30, 2021, 02:02:15 AM
Nice video Flkiter,

If you dont mind, a couple of follow up questions. 

What was the volume of that board to your weight?  It looks like you were doing good in the lighter winds, does that method get easier with more wind?  Can that be done with more of a sinker board (less volume)?

Thanks again
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Dontsink on August 30, 2021, 03:25:21 AM
Clay, you know WAY more than I do. I'm just basing that statement on the slingshot teaser video. They said the foil is designed to have a downforce in the wing tip at high speed.
Check out minutes 1:30 : https://blog.slingshotsports.com/hydrofoil-wing-performance-3-new-hover-glide-infinity-foil-wings/

Apparently by magic. They might mean the wing has some washout, which would mean different amounts of lift at varied locations of the wing at various angles of attack. But saying it has downforce at higher speed without some kind of servos, shape-shifting, or a demon inside the wing is simply nonsense. It also means we're headed into the next level of marketspeak usually encountered with oddly-shaped fins.

Not magic at all,washout or twist is used in just about any foil application you can think of.
Wings,propellers,turbines,foils etc...

And of course they create downforce if the angle of attack gets low enough (like going fast).
I remember pulling the bar full back when i flew Hang gliders and watching the tips go negative as the speed went up.

I'm pretty certain I mentioned all that, but downforce? You actually think there's enough washout to produce downforce in the tiny range of AOA on a foil with two feet of air space (at the most) between flying and not? I'll buy relatively less lift (and I still doubt that), but downforce--nope. Washout is twisting the wingtips so the trailing edge is higher than the leading edge. The aim of washout is to equalize lift at the wingtips at low angles of attack and low relative speed, like turning tightly where the inside wing is moving slower than the outer. Hang glider wings flex a lot and can change their washout when speed and therefore pressure on the wingtips increases. Foil wings don't flex.  I used to fly ultralights--mostly a pterodactyl, a fledge with a snowmobile motor. Other than flattening the wing which makes them prone to spinning, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "go negative". And it certainly doesn't happen with a foil.

It does go negative meaning it creates high pressure on top and low on the bottom,therefore downforce,because unlike a HangGlider or your Ultralight our foils are fully rigid and they cannot flatten out.

This downforce does not have to be big at all to create control problems.You are mixing low pressure in the root and high pressure in the tips on the same side of the foil,there is nothing stopping those pressures from trying to equalize.And they do.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: flkiter on August 30, 2021, 06:58:35 AM
Nice video Flkiter,

If you dont mind, a couple of follow up questions. 

What was the volume of that board to your weight?  It looks like you were doing good in the lighter winds, does that method get easier with more wind?  Can that be done with more of a sinker board (less volume)?

Thanks again

Hey tuna,
It is a 4'8 at 79 liters. More wind always helps and yes you can do the same on a sinker board but it will need a good amount of wind to get you moving forward. Once you can get a board planning some then it's easier to get up on it. I was in some light winds with a small board to show that it'll be easier with a bigger board and more wind.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: clay on August 31, 2021, 11:10:25 AM
Clay, you know WAY more than I do. I'm just basing that statement on the slingshot teaser video. They said the foil is designed to have a downforce in the wing tip at high speed.
Check out minutes 1:30 : https://blog.slingshotsports.com/hydrofoil-wing-performance-3-new-hover-glide-infinity-foil-wings/

Apparently by magic. They might mean the wing has some washout, which would mean different amounts of lift at varied locations of the wing at various angles of attack. But saying it has downforce at higher speed without some kind of servos, shape-shifting, or a demon inside the wing is simply nonsense. It also means we're headed into the next level of marketspeak usually encountered with oddly-shaped fins.

Not magic at all,washout or twist is used in just about any foil application you can think of.
Wings,propellers,turbines,foils etc...

And of course they create downforce if the angle of attack gets low enough (like going fast).
I remember pulling the bar full back when i flew Hang gliders and watching the tips go negative as the speed went up.

I'm pretty certain I mentioned all that, but downforce? You actually think there's enough washout to produce downforce in the tiny range of AOA on a foil with two feet of air space (at the most) between flying and not? I'll buy relatively less lift (and I still doubt that), but downforce--nope. Washout is twisting the wingtips so the trailing edge is higher than the leading edge. The aim of washout is to equalize lift at the wingtips at low angles of attack and low relative speed, like turning tightly where the inside wing is moving slower than the outer. Hang glider wings flex a lot and can change their washout when speed and therefore pressure on the wingtips increases. Foil wings don't flex.  I used to fly ultralights--mostly a pterodactyl, a fledge with a snowmobile motor. Other than flattening the wing which makes them prone to spinning, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "go negative". And it certainly doesn't happen with a foil.

It does go negative meaning it creates high pressure on top and low on the bottom,therefore downforce,because unlike a HangGlider or your Ultralight our foils are fully rigid and they cannot flatten out.

This downforce does not have to be big at all to create control problems.You are mixing low pressure in the root and high pressure in the tips on the same side of the foil,there is nothing stopping those pressures from trying to equalize.And they do.

I would love to see some gopro slo mo video of a foil doing this.

I rode the infinity 76 for many moons and never experienced down force at speed, on the head+ days I resorted to a longer mast and a washer in the stab to try and take the lift out and keep the foil from breaching.

The Kujira has a speed range unique from other foils I've ridden and to flexy for me so I didn't go on a very deep test to figure why it rides differently.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Dontsink on August 31, 2021, 02:34:43 PM
Not much to see in a vid i think, pressure differences are invisible and i do not know if any cavitation is involved at our speeds.

Maybe with a CFD foil design software animation that showed pressure distribution it could be visualized easily.

There is some freeware foil design stuff but i have not played with it yet,they do require some techy learning.

Anyway,if a foil has washout it is inevitable that with increasing speed and decreasing AOA the tips will start pushing down at some point.

Why we loose control of the foil i am not 100% sure about, i like my theory of negative&positive pressures going nuts on each other but i cannot prove it is the main cause of what feels like a high speed stall.
It may be simply that at those speeds tiny changes in AOA create dramatic changes in lift and we are not quick enough to correct with weight shift.So we either overfoil and breach or get dumped down onto the water .



Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 05, 2021, 08:47:04 AM
Progression tracking. 38 sessions in year one. I canít jibe yet but can handle pretty hairy conditions (3í chop and chest high swell) comfortably regular stance and survival-level switch.

 I think gear has held me back as now with my new wing with more glide Iím feeling less pressure to rush a turn. Going to check some high aspect wings and also get some time on an efoil to get comfortable entering a turn at 10-12 mph. I think I forget sometimes that I simply havenít spent much time on foil in waves. Maybe time to go back and SUP foil a bit more too. (Andrew 805, expect texts lol.)

Anyway, itís good to take stock and check progress on any project. It also helps to stave off frustration. If youíre thinking of taking this leap, do it. Even just working on skills in a tiny lake feels great and is a blast and will lead you to meet great people. Also my arms and shoulders look better than they have in my whole life hahahahaa..
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Hwy1north on September 05, 2021, 11:34:06 PM
Hwy1north: Thanks for the infinity 84 specific information. Really helpful. I'm riding the 84 and I've been working on pumping to get on foil. Seems like I can rise up on the foil briefly, but it won't stay up. I'm thinking about going back to my 99cm.
2 questions for you:
1) I have this setup:https://slingshotsports.com/collections/complete-foils-wing-surf/products/hover-glide-fsup-v3 . There is no way to move the mast forward/backward along the fuse. Should I buy a longer fuse?
2) Based on your experience, do you think there is a better foil for the beginner+ phase? The Infinity is HEAVY and other foils seem so light. I know everyone has their favorite foil, but the Infinity always gets moderate approval. Is it worth moving to a different foil?
Thanks!

The fuse is "switch" able.  Flip it around and the mast moves towards the wing or away.  Towards the front wing means run further forward in mast track, and you will get a more pitch sensitive foil, away from front wing, and more stable foil (theoretically...)  most beginners just need to make sure they have a fair bit of pull in the hand wing (so not under powered) then bear off and give a few pumps high to low and not side to side so that your feet get light as you pull on the hand wing.  The board will rise, stiffen your arms, and head up wind.... and don't stop weighting and unweighting your feet by pumping your legs until you are going fast.

Some foils are very athletic meaning you have to give them lots of input to get the most out of them.  The 84 is very smooth and suprisingly fast for how low aspect it is.  It just isn't very athletic.  You gotta row through the gears a bit before it takes off and make sure you are pointed in the right direction.  You probably have it in the mast to rear spot, so try switching the fuse to see if that livens it up.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 06, 2021, 10:30:25 PM
Solid day today. In a hilarious turn I actually watched an Alan Cadiz video on what I was going to work on. He talks about drifting downwind and just feeling that. I got good progress upwind and started turning and catching the chop for a few seconds and then powering back upwind. It was a revelation. At first I outran the bumps and felt that kick and dip when I hit the through. After I figured out I was running them over I started looking at the way they ran and turning into them and running down the line and it. felt. amazing. Holy sh@t I just want to do this all day. So yes, I did a maybe 100-200 foot downwinder on a 2í chop but it still blew my mind.

Also did a touch and go foot switch which let me get to toeside a couple of times. Way to much back leg pressure but I remember when switch felt this awkward too. Itíll come. Overall I am seeing that Iím too back-footed in general. Gotta play with that too. I think PonoBill has a good idea with his ďone foil only til I get itĒ. I need consistency more than anything at this stage.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: oakfish on September 07, 2021, 07:56:27 AM
Hwy1north: this is great info! I had no idea I could "switch" the fuse. I'll give it a try. Thanks!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: Hwy1north on September 07, 2021, 10:47:32 PM
No worries. Hope it helps. I'm no Slingshot expert, but I think the fuses are all the same and your 84 wing should have a removeable cover if you wanted to try the A position... 

https://support.slingshotsports.com/hc/en-us/articles/360057617412-Slingshot-Hover-Glide-Switch-Fuse-for-Hydrofoiling-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3krRo2BfyII&t=93s
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 12, 2021, 09:47:27 AM
After a short shake of my faith and a head reset Iíve had two good sessions. Still no jibe but the Alan Cadiz videos have me trying things and progressing around that.

Gong Curve XL is a damn fine intermediate wing. Iíve decided to ride it in all conditions until I have jibes. Itís fast enough, smooth and controllable and I can ride fully powered on a 3.5m and not breach. No need to introduce variables right now. Adding another fuse and setting up my 1450 for surf foil.

Swell riding in short bursts, super fun. Foot switches from switch to toe side (in prep for a toeside to heelside jibe) and also yesterdayís light wind session really had me feeling confident riding the foil in chop and managing direction and pitch. (Under 17-18 is now light whereas it once was my standard so thatís progress too.)

On the way back to shore (switch stance) I was way upwind so I surfed swell and ran downwind a bit switch. Crazy feeling but very doable.

The big thing I that I flagged the wing and pumped for probably 75-100 feet. This is a big deal as one of my hopes is that Iíll build skills on wing that transfer to the surf. So for the next few sessions swell surfing and pumping are a focus. Iím pretty sure that both will make transitions possible eventually. And even without strong transitions these skills will make downwinders (with the local B team) possible. Though I will remain forever ďunder reviewĒ with Hdip for my lake propensity.

Winging is fun. If you live near a lake or river and the wind hits 15mph even a couple of times a month, buy a 6m wing and get into it. Itís a blast.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: flkiter on September 12, 2021, 11:31:11 AM
After a short shake of my faith and a head reset Iíve had two good sessions. Still no jibe but the Alan Cadiz videos have me trying things and progressing around that.

Gong Curve XL is a damn fine intermediate wing. Iíve decided to ride it in all conditions until I have jibes. Itís fast enough, smooth and controllable and I can ride fully powered on a 3.5m and not breach. No need to introduce variables right now. Adding another fuse and setting up my 1450 for surf foil.

Swell riding in short bursts, super fun. Foot switches from switch to toe side (in prep for a toeside to heelside jibe) and also yesterdayís light wind session really had me feeling confident riding the foil in chop and managing direction and pitch. (Under 17-18 is now light whereas it once was my standard so thatís progress too.)

On the way back to shore (switch stance) I was way upwind so I surfed swell and ran downwind a bit switch. Crazy feeling but very doable.

The big thing I that I flagged the wing and pumped for probably 75-100 feet. This is a big deal as one of my hopes is that Iíll build skills on wing that transfer to the surf. So for the next few sessions swell surfing and pumping are a focus. Iím pretty sure that both will make transitions possible eventually. And even without strong transitions these skills will make downwinders (with the local B team) possible. Though I will remain forever ďunder reviewĒ with Hdip for my lake propensity.

Winging is fun. If you live near a lake or river and the wind hits 15mph even a couple of times a month, buy a 6m wing and get into it. Itís a blast.

If you're able to pump down wind, just do the same to get the jibe. It's all about the foil. Grabbing the wing too soon is the issue for beginners attempting the jibe. The wing will give push back that you will not notice and it'll slow the foil enough for it to stall and drop.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on September 13, 2021, 07:03:14 AM
My "big breakthrough" for switchfoot jibes is: Forget about the wing. I've been flagging the wing out and riding swells in both directions for about a month. How that didn't translate into easy jibes I have to put down to pure foot stubbornness--my feet didn't want to switch while I'm going downwind, and I'm still not doing toeside stuff. The geezer brain resists change. It's well and truly all in my head. I headed straight downwind with the wing flagged, surfing a nice swell. Switched feet and sailed out of it. A jibe without jibing. Whoda thunk it! After I did one I did twenty without a hitch, then fell on the foot switch five times in a row. I did three more successfully and then quit. Hopefully, this is now planted in my brain. Hopefully, hopefully. Gonna be pissed if it isn't.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: bigmtn on September 13, 2021, 02:41:18 PM
do the same for toe side. turn downwind, surf the foil, slowly turn and add wing power. boom you're going toeside.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on September 13, 2021, 05:11:10 PM
Now all I've got to do is convince my geezer brain of that.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 13, 2021, 07:40:58 PM
This drift til you get it thing is what Iím working on. Crank up wind, drift and surf. Rinse, repeat.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 26, 2021, 07:33:28 AM
3 successful jibes yesterday, finally. My watch didnít count them fully, or so I tell myself lol but I sheeted in and continued until I fell toeside. Not more than 50 more feet but enough that I was able to feel powered before I came down. Also, when I did touchdown sometimes, I was able to switch feet and just go so I didnít lose ground.

I also got 2 touchdown foot swaps on the other reach which opens me up soon to the other jibe direction.

Iím 1 year in almost to the day and this has allowed me to see that Iíll get this sport enough to say ďI do thisĒ lol

The little S-turns are getting to be 90į with enough power that they feel really good too. This opened up little short wind chop rides which probably led to the jibe. Iím excited to get a wave prone again now and see how that feels after dozens of these runs.

Following my, ďimpossible, then wonky, then got itĒ feel method, toeside is now just ďwonkyĒ which means 3-5 sessions til itís comfortable.

In an interesting development,  Iím now starting to do those S-turns switch (as is my buddy whoís also goofy.) I feel confident that we will be able to surf swell switch soon which should make downwinders much safer as we could cover ground at speed either direction.

For those of you struggling with the jibe, turn while mowing the lawn. Itíll get you there. A choppy lake remains a great testing ground.

LA growth scorecard. 10 wingers yesterday 3 of them female with two other younger women learning to efoil. 2 families with young kids were there. Could we finally be breaking the old white man barrier?!
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: PonoBill on September 26, 2021, 05:14:11 PM
The biggest downwind transition/breakthrough is flagging your wing, holding it by the front handle, and keeping it down by your waist. the first time you do it it feels like you just mastered a trick. After that, it's just how you go downwind. Mucho extremely easy.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: surfcowboy on September 26, 2021, 06:01:21 PM
Iíve done it a couple of times learning to pump. Now that I can run upwind fast Iíll try it downwind next session.

Iím hitting the point where every session has fun stuff to try. Any of you struggling, hang in there.
Title: Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
Post by: bstein on September 27, 2021, 05:15:12 PM
Thanks for the tips PonoBill and Surfcowboy! 6 months since I started this journey. Still learning to gybe. Got around once and it felt so strange to be switch foot just before I stalled and crashed. So much fun learning something new!
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