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The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Phils on July 11, 2020, 07:56:30 AM

Title: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Phils on July 11, 2020, 07:56:30 AM
Newest and largest of the HS foils.  Interestingly, almost identical in span and area to the Axis 920.  I find myself struggling in avg 15-16 conditions with my CF 1600 as my wife has our 2400.  Mostly due to a skill/experience deficit but hoping the 1850 will help.  We are NOT going to own two 2400s  :).  Any other Armstrong users think the gap between the CF 2400 and 1600 is too large?
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: ninja tuna on July 11, 2020, 08:14:54 AM
Hey Phils,

I can't wait to get that 1850.  I own both the 1600 and 2400.  I have predominantly been using the 2400 for winging as I have been learning, but stepped down to the 1600 a few times. I am 190-195lbs though.  I think there is a gap between the 2 but I think it is manageable.  As I get better I am thinking the 2400 will be more for the lightest wind days and I will ride the 1600, 1550, or 1850 once the wind gets fun.  The 1600 may eventually go away as I increase my skills too. I have been using it in the surf and now more on the wing. I will also use a combination of wings and foils to make my day fun. Not just ride a dedicated wing size and change my foil or vice versa.  I am fine with the gap though.   I do not want to have to micro manage between several different sizes while thinking about the wind conditions.  The way I see the wind is light, fun, or nukin and adjust accordingly.  I am loving my armstrongs.  If his wings is as good as his foils, I will definitely get them.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Admin on July 11, 2020, 09:14:52 AM
Newest and largest of the HS foils.  Interestingly, almost identical in span and area to the Axis 920.  I find myself struggling in avg 15-16 conditions with my CF 1600 as my wife has our 2400.  Mostly due to a skill/experience deficit but hoping the 1850 will help.  We are NOT going to own two 2400s  :).  Any other Armstrong users think the gap between the CF 2400 and 1600 is too large?

Do you have the 1850?  That looks great.  It looks thinner than the Axis 920 which sounds terrific. 
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Phils on July 11, 2020, 10:17:31 AM
The 1850 is hitting retailers next week supposedly.  I have paid for one so hopefully soon.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: ninja tuna on July 11, 2020, 10:46:01 AM
Also dont forget that you can put get the -2 shim for the tail to give you more lift for your 1600 and soon to have 1850.  It will cost you a little on the speed side but help you lift off sooner. 
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Phils on July 11, 2020, 11:09:05 AM
Also dont forget that you can put get the -2 shim for the tail to give you more lift for your 1600 and soon to have 1850.  It will cost you a little on the speed side but help you lift off sooner.
Yes. My wife is taking the day off so I took the -2 from her rig first thing this morning. 
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: VB_Foil on July 11, 2020, 03:20:41 PM
I mentioned my test ride of the 1850 over on the foil sup section, but hereís a quick recap.

Iím 145 lbs (65kgs). Prone foil and wingfoil. I have had a 1600 and own a 2400, 1550, 1200, and 1050. The 1850 session was a prone paddle session on my 74 liter wing board in waist high clean waves. Calling it my mid-length 😛

First wave was easy gradual lift with nice speed generating carves. Felt really quick and nimble for a wing that size. Faster than the 1600 and 2400. Also felt very stable and easy to pump. Managed a 3-1 on the first paddle!  Coulda gone for more but no more waves on the horizon.

Overall very stoked on the wing and have one on order.  It will be my go to for winging in light winds or prone in gutless surf.

Selling my 1200 and 2400 to make room.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: WHS on July 22, 2020, 08:53:43 PM
Newest and largest of the HS foils.  Interestingly, almost identical in span and area to the Axis 920.

Do you have the 1850?  That looks great.  It looks thinner than the Axis 920 which sounds terrific. 

Was planning on getting Axis 920 but it is unavailable. Wonder if 1850 would be similar or is maybe a better mid aspect option? Anyone try both or have opinions on how they compare? Armstrong quality looks impressive! Mast/fuse looks solid. Concerned about lack of additional wing options and high price of buying more wings but 1850 may be all I need for now and they are available now.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Phils on July 23, 2020, 06:51:01 AM
Retailers just started shipping their very first batches.  Mine supposedly arrives today (prepaid weeks ago).

Some of this is a "grass is greener...." phenomenon as I find myself often envying the Axis HA foils but ultimately I am very happy with Armstrong.  He brings his wings out pretty slowly and about as slow as my winging skills have come along. 

Some ramblings about the Armstrong foils if anyone wants an overview:

I started as many do with the CF (Carve Freeride) line (2400 and 1600).  The 1600 is now leaving me wanting more glide and pumping efficiency as I am now learning to work river/wind swell.  The HS (High Speed) line is slightly higher aspect (4.1-4.7), thinner and faster than the CF and the largest was the 1550 until the 1850 came along.  The 1850 may be the ultimate all-rounder for winging and many Armstrong fans are hopeful it could replace the 2400 and the 1600/1550 for most wingers.  As far as the stab, the system is pretty simple.  Most non-beginners use the 232 (it has a chop line on it for trimming at home if you want to go smaller).  And there are 3 beautiful but expensive titanium shims available to fine tune your ride.

Rumor and some fuzzy photo evidence indicates that he is actively working on a HA line.   Hopefully, my skills will be ready when they come out.  And I hope they come out before my curiosity cannot stand it any more and I have to demo an Axis or a Lift HA wing.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: WHS on July 23, 2020, 09:42:17 AM
Retailers just started shipping their very first batches. 

Found a complete 1850 in stock. They only have a few so if I don't make a quick decision I may miss out.


Some of this is a "grass is greener...." phenomenon as I find myself often envying the Axis HA foils but ultimately I am very happy with Armstrong.  He brings his wings out pretty slowly and about as slow as my winging skills have come along. 

Grass is greener is my main fear. So many Axis options and great reviews I may feel left out if I keep reading this forum. On the other hand if the 1850 has the best balance of features thats more important. Wish there were more Armstrong guys to chime in.


Rumor and some fuzzy photo evidence indicates that he is actively working on a HA line.   Hopefully, my skills will be ready when they come out.  And I hope they come out before my curiosity cannot stand it any more and I have to demo an Axis or a Lift HA wing.

Wish they would let us know what they are trying develop. Armstrong seems really focused on ease of use. If I knew they were coming out with an easy forgiving nice turning HA (which I don't think anyone has yet) I wouldn't really care how long it took. Current HA options don't really interest me, but based on whats out there Axis may get there first which is making this hard to decide. Thanks for the quick response!
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Phils on July 23, 2020, 04:04:22 PM
Took my 1850 for first session today at Stevenson.  Avg winds 22-24 so I was well powered to overpowered on my 3.5.  Keep in mind I am coming from the 1600.  The 1850 was better in every way.  Faster acceleration, better glide and pump.  I had my longest down wind glides ever.  Biggest surprise was how agile it is in the roll axis.  Banks and turns much faster than the 1600.  Will take a few more sessions till I get used to it.  Goes upwind really well.  Unable to judge lift cause I was so overpowered.   I am 70 kg. I think I am set for quite a while as far as winging foils.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: WHS on July 23, 2020, 06:47:27 PM
Took my 1850 for first session today at Stevenson.  Avg winds 22-24 so I was well powered to overpowered on my 3.5.  Keep in mind I am coming from the 1600.  The 1850 was better in every way.  Faster acceleration, better glide and pump.  I had my longest down wind glides ever.  Biggest surprise was how agile it is in the roll axis.  Banks and turns much faster than the 1600.  Will take a few more sessions till I get used to it.  Goes upwind really well.  Unable to judge lift cause I was so overpowered.   I am 70 kg. I think I am set for quite a while as far as winging foils.

Sounds really good! Just placed an order. Spent all day researching Armstrong as well as comparing to Axis. Pretty convinced I won't have any regrets. The 1850 looks flatter and thinner with less (relative) volume than rest of Armstrong foils. Even listed as weighing less than 1550 which is interesting. Also looks to have less swept back (or whatever that is called) tips. Highest aspect too. Let me know how it looks to you and please update review as you get more time on it.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Admin on July 23, 2020, 09:57:57 PM
Took my 1850 for first session today at Stevenson.

Awesome report.  Did you go to the kite launch or to Bob's (by the cabins)?  How were the weeds?
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Hilly on July 23, 2020, 11:52:37 PM
Pretty convinced I won't have any regrets.
You will not, they are the excellent foils. Performance and build quality are top-shelf. And they are silent and no tefgel needed yay :)
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Phils on July 24, 2020, 06:26:09 AM
Took my 1850 for first session today at Stevenson.

Awesome report.  Did you go to the kite launch or to Bob's (by the cabins)?  How were the weeds?

Bob's Beach. There are some weeds a bit downwind of the launch but easy to avoid by kneeling or straddling out for a distance of about 15 meters when you first get in the water.  Much tighter wind range than ES on certain days.....maybe when there is a South component to the wind like yesterday??  I have had 3 really nice 3.5 meter sessions here this month when the wind was super up and down at the ES.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Phils on July 28, 2020, 02:13:37 PM
A couple more sessions on the 1850 and WOW.  Today was not that big of a day by gorge standards but I was getting some really nice DW rides.  A bit bigger swell and some more skill (pumping efficiency and  swell reading) and I really think I could get some proper DW rides.   For those using the Armstrong 2400, if you have some basic board pumping skills, I donít think you give up much, if any low end with the 1850.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: obxDave on July 28, 2020, 02:59:14 PM
I look at the specs on the 1850 and it really is pretty similar to my Gong XL pro. (I wish the other manufacturers would publish wing volumes like Axis and Gong). And I see a similar effect comparing the XL pro to my larger Moses 1100. I donít give up that much low end but gain more carvability. Of course Gong fit and finish wonít come close to Armstrong but for the price difference youíd expect that.  The XL pro was ahead of its time in wing years......Been riding it since last November.

FWIW my goal is to have one front wing with a really wide speed range and great carvability. A nice high top speed for going into transitions, and a low stall speed for exiting transitions on the foil. I donít need or want two different front wings for different wind ranges. Iíll use my 6m Echo for light winds and 3.3m for cranking winds all with that one wing size. Thatís just my current opinion. Maybe itíll change next week :P
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: VB_Foil on August 02, 2020, 07:32:18 PM
First wing session in the waves with the 1850 today. Side offshore 10-20mph. 6m BRM. Waves waist-stomach high on sets.  Clean long walls from Isaias.

Ran the +1 shim and the wing went amazing. Able to cruise out upwind against the longshore current and pick off swells from way out the back. This is where the 1850 smokes the 2400, as that wing you almost have to jibe one wave ahead of the one you want to track down, letting it catch you as it stands up more one the inside. The 1850 could keep me on the unbreaking wave long before hitting the sandbar. The 1550 wouldnít have been as much fun in the lully conditions either.

The 6m BRM went insane too. Despite the ginormous leading edge diameter, the thing cuts through wind like a katana. Much more resistance felt from my own body than the wing when cutting back into the wind.

Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Phils on August 03, 2020, 05:14:28 AM
First wing session in the waves with the 1850 today. Side offshore 10-20mph. 6m BRM. Waves waist-stomach high on sets.  Clean long walls from Isaias.

Ran the +1 shim and the wing went amazing. Able to cruise out upwind against the longshore current and pick off swells from way out the back. This is where the 1850 smokes the 2400, as that wing you almost have to jibe one wave ahead of the one you want to track down, letting it catch you as it stands up more one the inside. The 1850 could keep me on the unbreaking wave long before hitting the sandbar. The 1550 wouldnít have been as much fun in the lully conditions either.

The 6m BRM went insane too. Despite the ginormous leading edge diameter, the thing cuts through wind like a katana. Much more resistance felt from my own body than the wing when cutting back into the wind.

Sounds amazing. I am loving mine. Completed my first on foil tack yesterday with it.  The glide makes everything easier.  Could be a one foil quiver for most conditions for me.  You will probably never use a bigger foil for winging.  Under what conditions would you use a smaller foil for winging and what foil would that be?
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: VB_Foil on August 03, 2020, 06:42:18 AM
The last time I used my 1050 Winging, the winds were perfect 5M conditions around 18mph steady. That was almost two months ago. Summer winds are brutal here. 

I think that the 1050 and 1850 would be a killer two wing wingding quiver.  You can run the 1050 by sizing your wing up one. So 4M conditions, run the 5m etc. depending on what style of riding you are after.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 07, 2020, 05:23:24 PM
https://youtu.be/Dh2CS7V0Tiw
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Phils on August 07, 2020, 05:54:30 PM
Itís the magical foil.  Today I was able to pump up to the swell in front of me several times on my 5-10 board. Canít wait to pair it with an FSM.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 09, 2020, 05:26:20 PM
Itís the magical foil.

Yeah, I think I found my unicorn.

Jackyís unicorn is the 1550

Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: VB_Foil on August 10, 2020, 06:24:45 AM
DW, I'd be interested to hear your feedback on mast stiffness on the Army. 

Send some wind up the coast so I can get back on the 1850 btw!
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: clay on August 10, 2020, 10:34:07 AM
DW, I'd be interested to hear your feedback on mast stiffness on the Army. 

Plus 1, especially curious if you have ridden the 85 mast your feedback compared to Axis?
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 10, 2020, 11:36:50 AM
DW, I'd be interested to hear your feedback on mast stiffness on the Army. 

Send some wind up the coast so I can get back on the 1850 btw!

Winging, Iíve never felt any mast flexing under me, from any brand.

I did SUP this morning with the Armstrong 72 mast. It felt fine. I was stable. Felt no wobble or deck vibrations transmitting back to me, like I did once with a GoFoil mast under my board. Iím happy with it.

I donít have my 85cm mast for winging yet. Itís on order.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: clay on August 10, 2020, 03:40:53 PM
I started on the 85 with 2400 wing, couldn't get it to feel right, taco regularly.   Got the 72 and that felt normal and how I would expect it to feel.  Thought maybe 85 was to tall for me, after riding 90 and 105 axis I know I can handle a tall mast just fine.  Maybe the 2400 is so big it puts a ton of flex or maybe the mast I had was unusually flexy??  I never managed to figure out what the deal was...
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: VB_Foil on August 10, 2020, 06:30:53 PM
I started on the 85 with 2400 wing, couldn't get it to feel right, taco regularly.   Got the 72 and that felt normal and how I would expect it to feel.  Thought maybe 85 was to tall for me, after riding 90 and 105 axis I know I can handle a tall mast just fine.  Maybe the 2400 is so big it puts a ton of flex or maybe the mast I had was unusually flexy??  I never managed to figure out what the deal was...

Thatís odd, I donít think Iíve ever tacoíd the 2400. Was your stance offset or on the stringer?  Iíve found that an offset stance with the wider wings can help with the added leverage required.

Was this winging or SUPing? Suping would be a different story as Iíve not got that much experience in that regard. 
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: clay on August 10, 2020, 07:51:18 PM
I started on the 85 with 2400 wing, couldn't get it to feel right, taco regularly.   Got the 72 and that felt normal and how I would expect it to feel.  Thought maybe 85 was to tall for me, after riding 90 and 105 axis I know I can handle a tall mast just fine.  Maybe the 2400 is so big it puts a ton of flex or maybe the mast I had was unusually flexy??  I never managed to figure out what the deal was...

Thatís odd, I donít think Iíve ever tacoíd the 2400. Was your stance offset or on the stringer?  Iíve found that an offset stance with the wider wings can help with the added leverage required.

Was this winging or SUPing? Suping would be a different story as Iíve not got that much experience in that regard.

Tried both wing and SUP.  I was so puzzled I tried it at a spot I know very well on  a small day, kicked out of a wave tried to do a couple pumps back out and immediately rolled.  Gave up on it after that.  Tried the 72 and was able to surf and turn just fine.  I have yet to need a staggered stance to turn a foil, so always turning in my usual foil surf stance.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Hilly on August 11, 2020, 04:22:42 AM
That is weird everyone who has tried the 85 reckons I should get it for wingding. Hmmm :-\
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 11, 2020, 04:23:17 AM
My guess clay,

When I have ridden wings too hard to turn. Too hard to turn means for me, a foil setup that is outside my ďnatural instinctĒ of what a foil should do, to work without thinking. Just roll, flow, and follow my input naturally.

Examples of this happening to me.

Kiting the Naish XL and the Axis 102. Some would say they work and turn for kiting, for me, they taco and I flop in the water because they donít follow my input. They donít turn on little kite boards. Not enough leverage.

SUPing, some would say the Axis 1150 turns. For me, I lean and it wonít follow my input. Flop in the water like a kook. Unridable to me. Hate it, not interested in adapting to it.

So the 2400 on the tall mast might have fallen outside this window of what I call your natural instincts. What you expect, and want to the wing to do when you roll in and out of turns. I wonít be buying a 2400, thanks for the warning  ;D  A Short mast reacts quicker. That probably brought he 2400 inside your window of natual instincts.

Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: cnski on August 13, 2020, 04:08:34 PM
It just goes to show how much personal preference is a factor in gear choice and how this can change over time. There is no substitute for trying as many different things as you can. For me the Axis 1150 has been a total game changer. And I love it with the 460 tail wing. And I prefer the standard fuse. Another game changer has been the 7m Echo. So much power. Dwight- What tubing are you using for your speed line on the Echo?
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 17, 2020, 05:46:51 PM
https://youtu.be/6KJTp6M4wCM
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: VB_Foil on August 17, 2020, 07:05:00 PM
A-Wing looks nice!  Window materials made from 'military tent material' so maybe less concern about crinkles and cracking?  Large diameter towards wingtips for more rigidity.
 
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: winged surfer on August 18, 2020, 02:05:15 AM
Interesting Armstrong is releasing later this week a sort of Mini boom that can fit all the other wings..
You can see it in action in the new wing video on Armstrongís official instagram ;)
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 21, 2020, 10:38:28 AM
the HS1250 with Ozone v2 with windows and stiff handles.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50251560973_a1fa50696b_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: VB_Foil on August 21, 2020, 11:56:42 AM
Interesting Armstrong is releasing later this week a sort of Mini boom that can fit all the other wings..
You can see it in action in the new wing video on Armstrongís official instagram ;)

drumroll please........hot off the press.....The Strap-On!

All jokes aside, I plan on scooping one up to use with my Cloud wings if compatible.  It will allow a more expansive power stroke when pumping onto foil I would imagine, plus one handed cruising!
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Phils on August 25, 2020, 07:12:40 AM
I have been riding my 1850/232/+1 almost every day at Swell and continue to be very happy with this wing.  I have noticed that it is extremely sensitive to depth, much more so than other foils I have used.  If I catch a swell high, it takes off and glides beautifully but if I am a bit deep, it is much slower.  The width of the foil does require some compromise on how hard one can turn, especially if the wave face is steep.  Breaches at speed are pretty unforgiving.  Once the river swells get head high, the size of the foil becomes more limiting and I think the 1550 will work better.

A bonus to hanging out at Swell is the parade of expert down winders that go by.  There is so much to learn by watching the timing of how they carve, pump and use every bit of river energy to stay on foil.  The paddlers are the best at it but there are many good wingers around.   I think it was Thatspec that glided by around 1400 yesterday.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 25, 2020, 03:53:31 PM
The HS1850 is like 4 wings in one. The low speed to do anything. The high end to hit 20.5 mph so far. Shot at the end of the day with fading wind. Probably 10-14 mph. Had to search out a gust just to attempt the 360 for the camera. I have to wait for Jacky to get tired to get any video, and she never gets tired.

https://youtu.be/gGcNaBg_dpM
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Admin on August 26, 2020, 05:48:25 AM
That was sweet.  claim that :)
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: WHS on August 26, 2020, 12:33:25 PM
Nice!

The HS1850 is like 4 wings in one. The low speed to do anything. The high end to hit 20.5 mph so far.

Don't have a lot to compare it to but the 1850 makes everything really easy. Heard that it isn't a beginner wing but can't imagine why not. My progression from beginner was immediate and rapid. Don't think I'll ever out grow it either.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: winddoctor on August 26, 2020, 01:15:41 PM
Just received my 1850 kit. Stoked to try it soon!

Are any of you finding it likes to be situated further forward/back in the boxes than foils you've ridden previously? What would you all recommend as the next step down for winging and SUP foiling? Saw that a new HS 1250 is being released shortly. Would this be the next go-to size (would ideally just have 2 front wings but who know where the journey takes me)?
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 26, 2020, 02:46:00 PM
It works in the middle of my tracks, same as most foils. With the 300 tail. Donít own a 232 tail.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 26, 2020, 03:03:32 PM
Heard that it isn't a beginner wing but can't imagine why not. My progression from beginner was immediate and rapid. Don't think I'll ever out grow it either.

I agree.

We (the industry) tend to recommend thick auto lifting wings for beginners because they donít know how to pump.

But these HS foils, while thinner than the CF models, are still very easy to ride. Nothing like some competing high performance foils.

For example, the Lift HA foils. Great pump, glide and carving, but kept biffing doing things Iím good at. Jacky went down hill quick skill wise. Had to kick those to the curb. No reason performance should make life harder. Especially when Iíve been foiling this long, in all forms of the sport, surf, wind, kite, wing.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Phils on August 26, 2020, 07:34:55 PM
The 1850 is an outstanding  all around foil for winging but I would not recommend it for someone who has never foiled before.  The 2400 is still the best Armstrong offering for them. 

As far as the next wing, for me the 1850 starts feeling slow when nonbreaking wind swell is about head high.  Maybe smaller for breaking waves.  Iím thinking either the 1550 or 1250, or maybe chop a 232 first.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: PonoBill on August 26, 2020, 09:16:23 PM
Interesting Armstrong is releasing later this week a sort of Mini boom that can fit all the other wings..
You can see it in action in the new wing video on Armstrongís official instagram ;)

Gee, I've never seen anything like that before. Brilliant.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 27, 2020, 04:01:00 AM
Iím thinking either the 1550 or 1250, or maybe chop a 232 first.

1250 I think.

Jacky is dropping from 1550 to 1050 in high winds. My plan is to drop from 1850 to 1250.

I have ridden the 1050. Fun wing. Easy, wide range of use for Jacky, but she weighs 116.

I think 1250 will be my choice when it arrives soon. Iím 185 right now.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: winged surfer on August 27, 2020, 04:41:54 AM
Hi Dwight,
Whatís the low end for Jacky on the 1050 ?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 27, 2020, 05:12:25 AM
Hi Dwight,
Whatís the low end for Jacky on the 1050 ?

Thanks!

Donít know for sure. Sheís been riding it with a 4m, so not a lot of wind required at 116 lbs.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 27, 2020, 05:14:15 AM
You can see a prototype HA Armstrong wing leaning against his board in the background. Not my style of wing, but hope there is some Army magic in the design that makes it more fun than it looks.

https://youtu.be/zqm6n6dUBFY
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: VB_Foil on August 27, 2020, 08:30:28 AM
Talk about a blade! I heard that Armie was saying that most 'HA' wings on the market today are not true HA. I think he's going for the true HA, which probably comes with all kinds of challenges, hence the amount or R&D.



(https://i.ibb.co/CJDKnFF/HA-Armstrong.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q0VYRww)
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 27, 2020, 09:19:06 AM
Donít believe marketing speak. Lots of brands have high aspect. Axis and gofoil have a pile of wings even more radical than that one.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: PonoBill on August 27, 2020, 10:26:30 AM
What on earth does true high aspect mean? More importantly, why is it good? the Axis 1150 has an aspect ratio of 6.4, which is probably as high as any foil wing around. Would it be better if it was higher? Might as well make a big deal about having long toes.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Hilly on August 27, 2020, 09:40:41 PM
Interesting Armstrong is releasing later this week a sort of Mini boom that can fit all the other wings..
You can see it in action in the new wing video on Armstrongís official instagram ;)

Gee, I've never seen anything like that before. Brilliant.

What on earth does true high aspect mean? More importantly, why is it good? the Axis 1150 has an aspect ratio of 6.4, which is probably as high as any foil wing around. Would it be better if it was higher? Might as well make a big deal about having long toes.
Not a fan of Armstrongs  :) :) ;)
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: VB_Foil on August 28, 2020, 06:28:32 AM
Haha chill out DW and Pono.  Armie isn't coming for your wings.  I'm not quoting Armie either. He didn't say there are 'no' HA wings on the market.  I think he was insinuating that there are a lot of wings marked as HA but really aren't.  He could have labeled his HS line as HA if he wanted to use 'marketings speak'.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 28, 2020, 09:18:09 AM
So...Iíve been a bit baffled as to why the Armstrong works so well.

I had been one those who avoided the brand for price, but primarily because they originally had just one tail stabilizer for ALL front wings. How could that be, when all my other foils needed a different size stabilizer for each front wing.

Now that Iíve ridden them, Iím still baffled by how well ALL front wings ride throughout an insane speed range with the same size stabilizer. Never have I been more happy with how well my stabilizer ďfeelsĒ with my front wings, all of them.

We all know the bad feel. Not enough lift, then too much lift at high speed, then too much drag, then foil trying to nose dive at max speed. It can be a complete cluster F with some combinations with some brands. The last brand I kicked to the curb being the worst offender.

Then Kane de Wilde gave us a clue when he appeared on the Progression Project Podcast. He said he believes Armstrong designs for ďpitch neutralĒ, so the stab is just for ďstabilityĒ. Translation, no downwind lift required.

So I searched the web for an examples of pitch neutral.

So Iím not crazy. There is an explanation for why the Armstrong works better for me.

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/47154/are-there-any-fly-by-wire-airliners-with-negative-or-near-neutral-pitch-stabilit

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50278943637_74bdb3c915_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Admin on August 29, 2020, 07:15:25 AM
Is the HS 850 also an upcoming deal or is that already out?
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 29, 2020, 09:06:08 AM
I have not heard anything about a HS850 coming.

BTW...

I was listening to the latest Progression Project Podcast with Jack from Town on it. They were talking about how insane the Lift HA170 and HA200 foils were speed-wise.

This got me thinking about what I experienced. My GPS showed those foils to be just average and slower than my best speeds with some other wings. But, when holding my Duotone from the nose handle and just pumping and gliding, they felt faster, and glided farther per pump, than anything else Iíve ridden.

So my conclusion is pumping speed, may not always translate to pure top end when wind-driven.

I asked the same, to a couple of local buddies (top level, one sponsored). They both agree. One thinks we (surfers) even have a certain speed expectation based on wave size (say 2 feet) so when we scream down the line of a 2 footer on foil at twice normal surf speed, we think wow, insane speed. But is it really insane in the wing ding world.

So next time I hear something has insane speed, I want to know doing what.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Admin on August 29, 2020, 09:30:59 AM
I have not heard anything about a HS850 coming.

BTW...

I was listening to the latest Progression Project Podcast with Jack from Town on it. They were talking about how insane the Lift HA170 and HA200 foils were speed-wise.

This got me thinking about what I experienced. My GPS showed those foils to be just average and slower than my best speeds with some other wings. But, when holding my Duotone from the nose handle and just pumping and gliding, they felt faster, and glided farther per pump, than anything else Iíve ridden.

So my conclusion is pumping speed, may not always translate to pure top end when wind-driven.

I asked the same, to a couple of local buddies (top level, one sponsored). They both agree. One thinks we (surfers) even have a certain speed expectation based on wave size (say 2 feet) so when we scream down the line of a 2 footer on foil at twice normal surf speed, we think wow, insane speed. But is it really insane in the wing ding world.

So next time I hear something has insane speed, I want to know doing what.

I saw the HS 850 here: https://www.armstrongfoils.com/media/1890/armstrong-wing-size-guide.pdf .  I was browsing around on the Armstrong site looking for the 1250 (not added to the site yet) and saw the size guide.  1250, 1050 and 850 are super interesting sizes.  Nice to see lots of new designs coming out in those ranges.  I saw that F-One also has an upcoming 1080 Phantom which looks cool as well.  Neil Pryde Small at 1130. 



Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: PonoBill on August 29, 2020, 10:50:06 AM
Interesting Armstrong is releasing later this week a sort of Mini boom that can fit all the other wings..
You can see it in action in the new wing video on Armstrongís official instagram ;)

Gee, I've never seen anything like that before. Brilliant.

What on earth does true high aspect mean? More importantly, why is it good? the Axis 1150 has an aspect ratio of 6.4, which is probably as high as any foil wing around. Would it be better if it was higher? Might as well make a big deal about having long toes.
Not a fan of Armstrongs  :) :) ;)

Not true, I think they make great stuff. I spent a lot of my career in Marketing and public relations--retired as the CEO of an advertising agency. It's silly marketing that I dislike.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Phils on August 29, 2020, 01:50:35 PM
I have not heard anything about a HS850 coming.

BTW...

I was listening to the latest Progression Project Podcast with Jack from Town on it. They were talking about how insane the Lift HA170 and HA200 foils were speed-wise.

This got me thinking about what I experienced. My GPS showed those foils to be just average and slower than my best speeds with some other wings. But, when holding my Duotone from the nose handle and just pumping and gliding, they felt faster, and glided farther per pump, than anything else Iíve ridden.

So my conclusion is pumping speed, may not always translate to pure top end when wind-driven.

I asked the same, to a couple of local buddies (top level, one sponsored). They both agree. One thinks we (surfers) even have a certain speed expectation based on wave size (say 2 feet) so when we scream down the line of a 2 footer on foil at twice normal surf speed, we think wow, insane speed. But is it really insane in the wing ding world.

So next time I hear something has insane speed, I want to know doing what.

Interesting ideas.  The ďfast foilĒ one reports on a wave may actually be more related to acceleration than max speed.   It makes sense that a great pumping wing also has great acceleration and is ďfastĒ on waves if you think about the forces involved.   It sounds like those Lifts might be great PURE DW foils.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Hdip on August 29, 2020, 01:53:55 PM
When is someone going to make a narrow high aspect wing? Is that what the cloud9 f28 is? The pump on the "high aspect" wings is so good, but they roll rail to rail so slow it's frustrating in the surf.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: winddoctor on August 29, 2020, 08:17:17 PM
2 sessions now on the 1850. About 8 sessions into my fledgling winging experience. What an incredible foil! I've had the opportunity to try a number of Slingshot, Naish, Axis, and GoFoil larger surf foils. The 1850 feels slippery and decently fast with good glide. Surfs wind swell in an intuitive way. Pumping it feels initially a bit interesting and seems like it requires a different technique than the other foils I've tried. I think maybe shallower, equally weighted foot pumps got my low end get up and go pretty early rather larger amplitude pumps. Smooth operator, this foil! Super stoked. Already scheming on the HS1250...
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Phils on August 30, 2020, 07:21:38 AM
2 sessions now on the 1850. About 8 sessions into my fledgling winging experience. What an incredible foil! I've had the opportunity to try a number of Slingshot, Naish, Axis, and GoFoil larger surf foils. The 1850 feels slippery and decently fast with good glide. Surfs wind swell in an intuitive way. Pumping it feels initially a bit interesting and seems like it requires a different technique than the other foils I've tried. I think maybe shallower, equally weighted foot pumps got my low end get up and go pretty early rather larger amplitude pumps. Smooth operator, this foil! Super stoked. Already scheming on the HS1250...
Critical to keep foil high in the water to get best performance for swell riding and also pumping.  I had an amazing session yesterday where I really focused on riding high and I found another gear by doing so.   
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: WHS on August 30, 2020, 05:18:32 PM
Pumping it feels initially a bit interesting and seems like it requires a different technique than the other foils I've tried. I think maybe shallower, equally weighted foot pumps got my low end get up and go pretty early rather larger amplitude pumps.
Critical to keep foil high in the water to get best performance for swell riding and also pumping.  I had an amazing session yesterday where I really focused on riding high and I found another gear by doing so.   

Feels like rapidly pumping nose up and down (like other foils) just messes up the attached flow and disturbs lift. I like to pump up and down mast to generate speed. Feels more in rhythm with the energy in bumps or swells.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 01, 2020, 01:00:29 PM
Winged the 2400 with 85 mast. The mast is not stiff enough for this wing. I felt the dogs tail wagging under the board. Up on foil itís less stable than the 1850. Itís the mast flex causing this. If I had time and money Iíd make a stiff mast. The 2400 wing is nice.

Tail wasnít a perfect match either. Need to try the 0 shim next time.

Iíd rate all my other Armstrong setups a 5 and the 2400 combo a 3 on a 1-5 scale.

I donít need a 2400, but Jacky was stealing my 1850 in 9-11 mph wind.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: clay on September 01, 2020, 01:05:13 PM
Winged the 2400 with 85 mast. The mast is not stiff enough for this wing. I felt the dogs tail wagging under the board. Up on foil itís less stable than the 1850. Itís the mast flex causing this. If I had time and money Iíd make a stiff mast. The 2400 wing is nice.

Tail wasnít a perfect match either. Need to try the 0 shim next time.

Iíd rate all my other Armstrong setups a 5 and the 2400 combo a 3 on a 1-5 scale.

I donít need a 2400, but Jacky was stealing my 1850 in 9-11 mph wind.

Bummer that's the case, and glad to hear it wasn't just me.  I remember putting in a washer or two and really jacking up the downforce before i finally felt the stabilizer on the 2400+85 mast.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 01, 2020, 01:52:50 PM
I did hit 16.7 mph in 11 mph wind with the 2400
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: VB_Foil on September 01, 2020, 02:07:25 PM
Yeah, the only time I notice any flex (side to side) is with the 2400 in substantial chop/backwash.  It doesn't create an unstable platform for me at 65kgs, but I could imagine it would be an issue at heavier weights.  The flex actually absorbs some of the roughness of the turbulence the giant wing picks up.  The 1850 performs much better in these type of conditions for sure.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 01, 2020, 02:48:12 PM
I bared off twice during the session to see what speed I could get. At most, a gust to 12 mph during the burst off the wind.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50295059523_e0108a3460_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 02, 2020, 11:22:49 AM
On the beach right now taking a break. Wind average on sensor 10 mph. I just spanked everyone. Even the 9m 135 lb windsurfer who alway goes, cannot plane. Jacky cannot get on foil with 1850 and 5m. I was on foil the whole time.

2400 working insane with 300 tail with 0 degree shim. Upping my rating to 4 stars.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: VB_Foil on September 02, 2020, 11:52:34 AM
Session saver!
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Keys Sup on September 15, 2020, 04:26:02 PM
Armstrong Mini Boom.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: PonoBill on September 15, 2020, 05:26:02 PM
Cute, but not bright.

Why wouldn't you extend the mini-boom to the furthest front handle and slightly past the back handle. If they are worried about packing it into a small pack then make it a two-piece. Easy. My fake boom does two things--lets you grab the boom at intermediate spots as illustrated above and stiffens the handles a lot. I don't get it, why not go all the way? It's velcro'ed onto the handles, not rocket science.

Here's how you do it, Armie--two straps in the front handle, stretching it tight against the boom, one each at the front of the next handle and the back of the one following. That gives maximum stiffness with minumum wraps. Repeat as necessary for however many handles you have. At the back, have a few inches extra to grab if you need a little power boost. Stick a narrow strip of loop velcro along the spine of the tube. If you decide to make a twopiece, have the ferrule fall at a handle and wrap a wide strip through the handle and onto both sections to ensure they don't separate. Totally public domain because it's stupidly simple. You're welcome.  There's no potential for patenting any of this that wouldn't evaporate after someone spent time with lawyers. If someone did I'd go after them myself out of pure spite.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Keys Sup on September 15, 2020, 05:51:20 PM
Yeah, still cheaper and more useable length to do a Pono Fake Boom.
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Admin on September 16, 2020, 02:36:24 AM
Armstrong Mini Boom.

because clearly a carbon control bar is best mounted to two wiggly nylon straps.  This is getting frustrating...

Who is going to sack up and lose the dinky handles?
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Hilly on September 17, 2020, 04:24:59 AM
No need for a shity boom handles are awesome  :)
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Hilly on September 17, 2020, 04:30:28 AM
Back on topic. I have the 1850 and it is an amazing foil, especially for wingding  :) :)
Title: Re: Armstrong HS 1850
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 06, 2020, 03:24:25 PM
The 2400 was a session saver today.

I jumped on my buddies aluminum gear, for a quick comparison to what I used to ride.

OMG, my old aluminum gear felt like riding with 30 lbs of lead attached to my foil. Twilight Zone experience! Lead and dead feeling.

I thought it (carbon) was marketing BS. I was wrong. I probably wouldnít have noticed as much difference, if not for the last 2 months on nothing but full carbon.
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